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> Mandated use of rest rooms by gender., What hazards really exist?
Curmudgeon
post May 25 2016, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
Punitive laws in North Carolina and other states defy logic, economics and federal proteions.
North Carolina recently became the first U.S. state to mandate discrimination against transgender people by statute, banning them from using bathrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender identity in government buildings and schools. The new law also guts protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in Charlotte and nine other municipalities.This move and similar ones in other states are terrible signals of intolerance, but beyond that they make absolutely no sense. ( link .)

I have grown accustomed to "family" bathrooms in large stores which allow either gender to change a baby's diaper.

I was raised in a large family with a single bathroom. I have yet to visit a single family residence and find a sign on a bathroom door indicating a gender.

I attend a church where the bathroom doors have a lock on the inside for safety and privacy. Both the first floor and basement bathrooms are "one holers." Placing a Men sign on one door and a Women sign on the other door would force both genders to use "the appropriate floor" when they needed to act like a human being and relieve themselves.

If I am in a retail store where the men's room is locked and I need to go, my wife is willing to check that there is no one in the ladies room and stand guard outside while I go. I have returned the favor when a Ladies room is in use. The principal difference between the men's and ladies bathrooms seems to involve urinals in men's bathrooms and what is for sale in the vending machines. I am seventy years old and I have never glanced over the wall of a urinal to check out the gender of the person urinating next to me.

Question for debate:

Do you carry a birth certificate with you on a regular basis?

Is there any rational reason to legally enforce restrooms to be segregated by gender?

Is such a law likely to be found Constitutional, or is this going simply to be a large source of income for attorneys until it is overthrown?


This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: May 25 2016, 11:20 PM
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LoneWisdom
post May 26 2016, 04:46 AM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ May 25 2016, 07:18 PM) *
QUOTE
Punitive laws in North Carolina and other states defy logic, economics and federal proteions.
North Carolina recently became the first U.S. state to mandate discrimination against transgender people by statute, banning them from using bathrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender identity in government buildings and schools. The new law also guts protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in Charlotte and nine other municipalities.This move and similar ones in other states are terrible signals of intolerance, but beyond that they make absolutely no sense. ( link .)

I have grown accustomed to "family" bathrooms in large stores which allow either gender to change a baby's diaper.

I was raised in a large family with a single bathroom. I have yet to visit a single family residence and find a sign on a bathroom door indicating a gender.

I attend a church where the bathroom doors have a lock on the inside for safety and privacy. Both the first floor and basement bathrooms are "one holers." Placing a Men sign on one door and a Women sign on the other door would force both genders to use "the appropriate floor" when they needed to act like a human being and relieve themselves.

If I am in a retail store where the men's room is locked and I need to go, my wife is willing to check that there is no one in the ladies room and stand guard outside while I go. I have returned the favor when a Ladies room is in use. The principal difference between the men's and ladies bathrooms seems to involve urinals in men's bathrooms and what is for sale in the vending machines. I am seventy years old and I have never glanced over the wall of a urinal to check out the gender of the person urinating next to me.

Question for debate:

Do you carry a birth certificate with you on a regular basis?

Is there any rational reason to legally enforce restrooms to be segregated by gender?

Is such a law likely to be found Constitutional, or is this going simply to be a large source of income for attorneys until it is overthrown?



Well, that seems to be the typical myopic view of the issue... Create a world where a boy wanting to shower with the girls can claim he's a girl, and when it's obvious he's attracted to girls, claim he's a lesbian... and then pretend it's about bathrooms. Making this about gender identity at the urinal is ridiculous. Girls that try to pass as boys in the boys locker rooms and showers will probably be the root cause of most of the lawsuits. Apparently, the people making these types of arguments don't remember how the unrestrained human male behaves in packs. Or, maybe they can believe they can declare that the species has changed.

This all fits right in with schools teaching sex education and alternative lifestyles, handing out birth control pills, condoms, morning after pills, then busing girls that end up pregnant to the abortion mills. After all, they don't want unwanted children or an exploding population. There seems to be no end to the contradictions.

But don't let me interfere with the inane obtuse narratives. Soon they will be arguing for fathers marrying sons, mothers marrying daughters, grandparents marrying grandchildren, brothers marrying brothers, sisters marrying sisters, etc., ... If someone complains, they can just claim they don't feel like they're related.

This post has been edited by LoneWisdom: May 26 2016, 06:01 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post May 26 2016, 01:03 PM
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Do you carry a birth certificate with you on a regular basis?
No.

Is there any rational reason to legally enforce restrooms to be segregated by gender?

Let's get the viewpoint of the mother of a transgender person.
The question she asks is, "If this was YOUR daughter, would you be comfortable sending her into a men's bathroom?"
And then she answers it with: "Neither would I"
and adds: "Be fair. Be kind. Be empathetic. Treat others how you would like to be treated."

I can surmise from the above that she DOES believe that genders should be segregated, and it would actually be unkind as well as unfair, in her estimation, for the genders NOT to be separated
(at it should be ipso facto quite obvious that if those genders weren't separated her "daughter" would after all be forced to use the restroom with a bunch of dudes, something she clearly has an issue with)
Maybe her reasons are the same as others?
And since her "daughter" looks exactly like a girl, and no one is going to demand to see her genitals nor her birth certificate, she can easily use the public female restroom without issue (unless "she" demands a urinal...if so those are pretty scarce in the girls' room).

Is such a law likely to be found Constitutional, or is this going simply to be a large source of income for attorneys until it is overthrown?

We've separated the bathrooms by the sexes for a long long while.
Corey's mom (linked above) obviously thinks they should be. I think they should be.
Just about everyone is carrying a camera now that can be released to the world at any given time. In fact, they recently prosecuted some sailors for videotaping women in the shower in their submarine (the first women to be assigned to a sub).

I have to agree with LoneWisdom that there are some odd narratives these days.
Social media seems to be creating a insulated worlds filled with confirmation bias.
From my perspective, Corey's mother makes perfect sense.
No, her "daughter" shouldn't be forced to use the male restroom, for the reasons she provided. But it should be obvious that the reasons she provided also extend to the rest of the public...not just her 0.2 percent of the population outlier "daughter".

We see photos of eight year old boys in drag now, and they look like an Afghani Bacha bāzī boys, to thunderous applause on Facebook and hundreds of thousands of "likes". Is it appropriate to sexualize a young boy? "Oh noes! Haters! He's just playing dress up!" No. Dress up is clown face or vampire makeup, not sexualized drag queen with the caption, "Don't I look pretty?" or "Doesn't he look gorgeous?" If it were a little girl it would be disturbing as well...and people would be free to point out that you shouldn't sexualize a child. But point this out when it's a boy and it's the equivalent of hate speech.

Edited to add:
Of course, they could always make the handicapped accessible bathrooms and/or "family" restrooms (most of those are private) apply to transgendered folk as well.
Problem solved!
No need to make a federal case out of it. Hm…almost makes one wonder WHY they are making a federal case out of it.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: May 26 2016, 01:05 PM
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DaytonRocker
post May 26 2016, 03:08 PM
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There is no test for gender identity. So, claiming what you think you are cannot be disproved. Also, nothing was said about age. When I was 15 years old, the prospect of being able to watch girls go to the bathroom would have been awesome. I wouldn't have needed to get my hands on dirty magazines or ladies magazines. Speaking for myself, my spank bank would have been overflowing. Does that mean I'm some perv or predator? No - I was a normal heterosexual kid with hormones completely out of control -like most kids my age.

If a guy wants to use the bathroom, he doesn't have to dress like a girl. Not all girls dress like girls. And vice versa. Now, because one statistically non-existent group of people feel bad going into what they consider the wrong bathroom, 320 million people have to suffer the consequences. The world has gone mad.

So, women should feel great about this. Some a$$hole predator will go into the ladies room, drop his pants, and start waving his pecker around. What are the consequences? How can there be any? Using the bathroom requires exposing your genitalia. We can't put cameras in bathrooms. That would make it even worse. How does a person of any gender prove sexual assault (that doesn't require touching another person)? A man and a woman leave a bathroom. The woman screams some man is exposing himself to her in a lewd fashion. Sorry lady, you can't go to the bathroom without exposing yourself. Does the law say you must be in a stall? In front of a urinal? Is against the law for drunk women 10 minutes before closing time in a bar try to use urinals for fun? As someone who has been playing music professionally in local bar bands all my life (and still do), I've seen about everything there is that people will do.

The only answer is that bathrooms allowing multiple people into the bathroom at once will be shut down. Bathrooms will be one at a time. That doesn't sound like a bad idea until the next time you go to a show or sporting event. Have you even seen how full the bathrooms are at an NFL game? Or a MLB game? At a (as an example) Taylor Swift concert? A concert full of 12 year olds?

Finally, it's already been ruled that people taking upskirt photos do not violate a woman's right to privacy. I can't see an argument being made that is different in a multiple gender bathroom. After all, there is no law telling you where you you are allowed to drop trou once in the bathroom. Maybe the law can be narrowed for the sake of safety. How could it be enforced?
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akaCG
post May 28 2016, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ May 25 2016, 07:18 PM) *
QUOTE
Punitive laws in North Carolina and other states defy logic, economics and federal proteions.
North Carolina recently became the first U.S. state to mandate discrimination against transgender people by statute, banning them from using bathrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender identity in government buildings and schools. The new law also guts protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in Charlotte and nine other municipalities.This move and similar ones in other states are terrible signals of intolerance, but beyond that they make absolutely no sense. ( link .)

...

The link you provided, the URL of which is ...

"http://Punitive%20laws%20in%20North%20Carolina%20and%20other%20states%20defy%20logic,%20economics%20and%20federal%20protections.%20635959733106366955-trans.JPG%20%20(Photo:%20Skip%20Foreman,%20AP)%20%20North%20Carolina%20recently%20became%20the%20first%20U.S.%20state%20to%20mandate%20discrimination%20against%20transgender%20people%20by%20statute,%20banning%20them%20from%20using%20bathrooms%20and%20locker%20rooms%20that%20align%20with%20their%20gender%20identity%20in%20government%20buildings%20and%20schools.%20The%20new%20law%20also%20guts%20protections%20for%20lesbian,%20gay,%20bisexual%20and%20transgender%20people%20in%20Charlotte%20and%20nine%20other%20municipalities.%20%20This%20move%20and%20similar%20ones%20in%20other%20states%20are%20terrible%20signals%20of%20intolerance,%20but%20beyond%20that%20they%20make%20absolutely%20no%20sense

... does not work.

Would you be kind enough to provide one that does?

ps:
The headline of the piece you are featuring in your OP ("Punitive laws in North Carolina and other states defy logic, economics and federal proteions") needs some work, as well. There's no such word as "proteions".

ps2:
Surely you didn't just copy and paste the "Punitive laws in North Carolina and other states defy logic, economics and federal prote[ct]ions" phrase into your OP post from the AdHocNews.de website, didja? Or didja?



ps3:

Do you carry a birth certificate with you on a regular basis?

No.
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akaCG
post Jun 2 2016, 08:07 AM
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Latest developments:
QUOTE
...
The African-American woman who leads a state chapter of the ACLU has resigned, citing her own daughters' “frightened” reaction to biological males using the women's restroom.
...
“I have shared my personal experience of having taken my elementary school age daughters into a women’s restroom when shortly after three transgender young adults, over six feet [tall] with deep voices, entered,” she wrote.

“My children were visibly frightened, concerned about their safety and left asking lots of questions for which I, like many parents, was ill-prepared to answer,” she continued.
...
Dillard Smith is no conservative. She earned a degree in economics from Berkeley and a masters degree at Harvard, while working for the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and the California Supreme Court.

She is a 2003 graduate of the program Emerge America, which states its “goal is clear: to increase the number of Democratic women in public office.”
...
A transgender activist, a biological male who goes by the name Cheryl Courtney-Evans, responded to the resignation by calling Dillard Smith “lazy,” “ill-educated,” and a “b--ch” who needs to sit down and “STFU.”
...

Link: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/state-lea...sgend#pq=VvitsT

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Hobbes
post Jun 5 2016, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ May 26 2016, 10:08 AM) *
There is no test for gender identity. So, claiming what you think you are cannot be disproved. Also, nothing was said about age. When I was 15 years old, the prospect of being able to watch girls go to the bathroom would have been awesome. I wouldn't have needed to get my hands on dirty magazines or ladies magazines. Speaking for myself, my spank bank would have been overflowing. Does that mean I'm some perv or predator? No - I was a normal heterosexual kid with hormones completely out of control -like most kids my age.

If a guy wants to use the bathroom, he doesn't have to dress like a girl. Not all girls dress like girls. And vice versa. Now, because one statistically non-existent group of people feel bad going into what they consider the wrong bathroom, 320 million people have to suffer the consequences. The world has gone mad.


Here is the crux of the matter (taken from GraySeal's thread about the role of government). It is government's role to create laws which enforce society's norms and values. This means that it must flow up from the people. There are exceptions, when rights outlined in our Constitution and Bill of Rights supercede what might be prevalent thought within society. In those cases, society would have to amend the Constitution to have those rights changed. Where we often run into problems is when government tries to push society into believing what government thinks is right.

So, within this context, is it society's norm that transgender people should be able to use the restroom of the gender they identify with? I would say no, but open to arguments indicating otherwise. So, government would then NOT be enforcing an existing societal norm, but trying to create one. Is a transgender persons 'right' to use the bathroom of their choice contained within the Constitution? That would then provide the only valid basis on which the government should be taking any action.

QUOTE
Finally, it's already been ruled that people taking upskirt photos do not violate a woman's right to privacy.


Which is baffling in itself.
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akaCG
post Jul 14 2016, 08:33 PM
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As expected, ...

"TRANSGENDER WOMAN ARRESTED FOR VOYEURISM AT AMMON TARGET"

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Eeyore
post Jul 15 2016, 06:15 PM
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Is there any rational reason to legally enforce restrooms to be segregated by gender?

Of course there is a rational reason to segregate bathrooms by gender. However, as pioneered by Ally McBeal, we may decide as a society to stop the segregation by gender.

I think there is a greater sense of security that goes with gender segregated public restrooms. We have a culture of them that is well engrained. Habits are hard things to change.
When I become dictator this would not become one of the first reforms I would make.

At my work there are a couple of places where single bathrooms are side by side segregated by gender. Our school has a traditional in house rivalry and every person is designated as one faction or the other. I have long thought that it would be very interested to put the name of the faction instead of gender in front of those doors.

Transgender people are left without a clear space by this custom.Probably best to sort this out case by case and through the use of common sense. Laws clearly can complicate the issues.

It really is the behaviors that we fear that need to be continue to be enforced as illegal. When I use a restroom I have the expectation that I can find a place of privacy and that I have recourse if I feel assaulted or violated. I don't think those concerns are directly related to transgender issues. All types of people are the ones that want to behave criminally in restrooms. (meaning the small percentage of people that behave criminally in restrooms come from all of the genders, races, ethnicities, and religious affiliations under the skittles rainbow. Those criminal actions are what need to be provided for. It is too bad that the transgender community is being targeted in this story.
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