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> Shooting down of MH17, What should U.S. response be?
Hobbes
post Jul 17 2014, 11:16 PM
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Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 18 2014, 12:06 AM
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Bikerdad
post Jul 18 2014, 12:04 AM
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1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
US and world response, which is already taking place, should be to re-route civilian aircraft around the conflict zone wherever possible. Beyond that, the question must be "was it intentional?" Investigate.

2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
They are capable of it. The missile system suspected of being used is produced by Russia, and has already been used by the militants to shoot down Ukrainian warplanes. The warplanes shot down were all hit at much lower elevations. Russia has apparently supplied these systems to the rebels.

3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
They shouldn't. To my knowledge, nobody of any consequence anywhere in the world has suggested civilian airliners merely passing over would be at risk in the area.

4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
I'm pretty sure that the US response on the foreign policy level will be handwaving and hashtags.

5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
It's putting the separatists in a poor light, as well as putting their patrons, the Russians in a poor light. However, from a tactical/operational level, this may work to their advantage. By clearing the airspace above eastern Ukraine of civilian overflights, the rebels will have less concern about Ukrainian recon assets hiding among the airliners. That would mean the only things up there would be clean targets. Additionally, with no pesky civilians passing through, the Russians may be able to start using their own air assets to support their clients, which admittedly would slightly complicate the firing solutions. The effect of this may be similar to shooting a few rounds into the air outside the saloon. It clears the street before the gunfight.

6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?
If by brought to justice you mean "Justice Court", only if it serves the interests of Russia, assuming that the perps are rebels or Russians. If by "brought to justice" you mean "buried 6 feet deep", that's hard to tell. It would REALLY serve the interests of most of Europe if the perps/suspected perps all mysteriously but very publicly died horribly. As for Malaysia, unless their airliner was deliberately selected as a target simply because they're essentially a non-entity in The Great Game, they're not but victims of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Of course, that truly could be all this is... wrong place, wrong time. It's possible that the rebels fired on a lower altitude Ukrainian warplane, and the missile, for whatever reason, ended up locking on to the 777 instead.
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Gray Seal
post Jul 18 2014, 01:39 AM
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The 777 was knocked out of the air at 32,000 feet. Does this altitude eliminate quite a few weapons from the possible list?

Who has access to capable weapons?

I doubt this was deliberate by either side. But, someone could be stupid thinking this would possibly be to their advantage.

I agree with Bikerdad that the only sensible reaction is to avoid that airspace.
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Hobbes
post Jul 18 2014, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 17 2014, 07:04 PM) *
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
US and world response, which is already taking place, should be to re-route civilian aircraft around the conflict zone wherever possible. Beyond that, the question must be "was it intentional?" Investigate.


It seems pretty clear that the plane was intentionally shot down. It doesn't seem like they realized it was a civilian aircraft when they did it. BUT the system they used should have been able to tell them that it was.

QUOTE
They are capable of it. The missile system suspected of being used is produced by Russia, and has already been used by the militants to shoot down Ukrainian warplanes. The warplanes shot down were all hit at much lower elevations. Russia has apparently supplied these systems to the rebels.

Used by the militants (ie, Ukranian separatists), or used by people Russia has put in place there (ie, Russian soldiers, or soldiers sent there by Russia or under Russian orders and training) to shoot down aircraft?

QUOTE
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
They shouldn't. To my knowledge, nobody of any consequence anywhere in the world has suggested civilian airliners merely passing over would be at risk in the area.


I tend to agree, but other countries (the US included) had already decided not to fly there. But it was perfectly acceptable at that time for airlines to fly there. The only restriction, which Ukraine had put in place, was for such traffic to be above 30,000 feet, which this flight was. The ICA (sp?--international version of the FAA) has since declared all of eastern Ukraine a no fly zone.

QUOTE
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
I'm pretty sure that the US response on the foreign policy level will be handwaving and hashtags.


I actually like the call by Obama for a multinational investigation---as long as he really pushes to make that happen. The site has already been contaminated, and I wouldn't be surprised if most evidence (black boxes, etc) is gone long before anyone gets there to investigate. This does open up the possibility for the U.S., and Europe, to push strongly for some sort of cease fire, and for Ukraine to assume control of the area during the investigation.

I didn't have any issues with Obama's brief statement today. Putin's statements, on the other hand, were very pointed and political, stating that this tragedy was due to Ukraine's efforts against the separatists (when, most likely, the opposite is the case).

QUOTE
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
It's putting the separatists in a poor light, as well as putting their patrons, the Russians in a poor light. However, from a tactical/operational level, this may work to their advantage. By clearing the airspace above eastern Ukraine of civilian overflights, the rebels will have less concern about Ukrainian recon assets hiding among the airliners. That would mean the only things up there would be clean targets. Additionally, with no pesky civilians passing through, the Russians may be able to start using their own air assets to support their clients, which admittedly would slightly complicate the firing solutions. The effect of this may be similar to shooting a few rounds into the air outside the saloon. It clears the street before the gunfight.


It may clear the airspace, but its going to fill the ground with investigators. Neither Russia, nor the separatists, will be happy with that.

QUOTE
Of course, that truly could be all this is... wrong place, wrong time. It's possible that the rebels fired on a lower altitude Ukrainian warplane, and the missile, for whatever reason, ended up locking on to the 777 instead.


Possible, but seeming less likely all the time. First, I think the weapons are more sophisticated that that...they hit what they were locked on to when launched (unless the other plane is in very close proximity). Also, there was a tweet right after the incident with someone bragging they had just shot down another cargo plane...which was removed a short time later when everyone realized they hadn't. There is also the purported cell phone conversations between the Russians and the separatists regarding this incident (which certainly places Russians in the conflict, despite their claims to the contrary) indicating that while they realized what they had just done, they weren't too worked up about it....with the Russian officer even exclaiming 'F them, they shouldn't have been there). Not exactly a public relations coup for Russia, if verified.

Cell Phone calls

QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 17 2014, 08:39 PM) *
The 777 was knocked out of the air at 32,000 feet. Does this altitude eliminate quite a few weapons from the possible list?


Yes. Shoulder fired missiles, like Stingers, can't go that high. So, it was definitely from a fairly sophisticated and powerful surface to air missile system, apparently a Russian Buk, like these pics. Also, there is a picture of just such a system in the area shortly before the launch.

QUOTE
Who has access to capable weapons?
Russians, and various countries they have sold these systems to. Ukraine had some, too, so it is possibly the militants captured one.

QUOTE
I agree with Bikerdad that the only sensible reaction is to avoid that airspace.


That goes without saying, now, I think. The question was more around what other responses. Should Obama push hard for a full and complete investigation. Easy answer seems to be 'yes'...but to what extent should he push to make that happen? Because there will be lots of resistance, and tampering of evidence.

It could be used as an excuse to bring in U.S., U.N., other European troops as peace keepers to assist in the investigation. Russia would want nothing of the sort happening, which is the main reason to even consider doing it. But that's a big step, which could lead to other 'accidents'.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 18 2014, 05:55 AM
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Trouble
post Jul 18 2014, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Jul 17 2014, 05:16 PM) *
Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?


As details emerge it will be easier to answer the questions. What is obvious is that American officials have been trying vigorously to become involved in Ukraine since the coup. The Russians have been trying to limit western support. This is beyond debate. Does shooting down a plane make that more or less likely? I think it would be more than fair to place a 2b question.

2b. Did the Poroshenko government or a faction inside of it fire on MH17?

I'd say the third question would be easiest to answer presently but is subject to revision.
To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?

A lot depends if the flight path was diverted over Ukraine airspace.

Were the pilots aware of restrictions over the airspace? American FAA policy is pretty clear.

QUOTE
Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?
Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over parts of Ukraine.



So if this notice was put into effect three months ago, what is the Malaysian airlines policy in these matters?
The current line of reasoning makes little sense considering insurance providers would pull coverage immediately if additional risk was taken to simply shorten the route on a civilian airline. Frankly this is too silly to swallow.

Hopefully with additional information, we can more rigourously assess how the plane was downed as the plane was up pretty high for "rebel" equipment to hit.
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moif
post Jul 18 2014, 12:57 PM
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There were several other civilian aircaft operating in the same airspace. A Danish commercial flight out of Copenhagen was literally 180 seconds behind the Malaysian. According to the maps I've seen on Danish television, at least half a dozen civilian aircaft were operating in the airspace over eastern Ukraine at the time. The civil air authorities have explained their presence by pointing out that the airspace above 31,000 meters was considered safely out of range of the conflict.

My understanding of events, from local European sources is that a pro Russian seperatist group recently captured several tracked BUK SAM systems and this was confirmed by Sergey Kurginyan (though its not translated). The seperatists used these BUK systems to shoot down two Ukrainian military aircraft prior to the shooting down of MH17 and locals posted pictures of the captured BUKs parked in the region.

When MH17 was shot down, separatist military leaders Girkin and Strelkov posted online that their men had shot down a Ukrainian army AN-26 and local pro-Russian television media quickly picked upon the story showing footage of the smoke plume. Then the seperatists militia who gone to investigate the wreckage found it was of a commercial airliner. Their telephone calls to their Russian GRU handlers were intercepted and reveal their complicity. Girkin and Strelkov then removed their tweets and facebook posts and began pointing at the Ukraine military, claiming they did not have any SAM systems capable of hitting aircaft at that altitude.

The local Russian backed militia shot the missile at a blip on the radar, a blip they couldn't identify because they didn't have the means to see a commercial transponder. They are directly responsible for shooting down an aircraft full of families on vacation and top AIDS researchers on their way to a conference. Some of them have tried to shift the blame to their victims by claiming a commercial flight should not have been flying over a war zone. Rapists often use the same logic when they say 'she dressed like a slut'.

Putin however started all this with his dream of bringing back Greater Russia. Just like he did in Georgia. He has the blood of yet more children on his hands. He is directly responsible and so too are those Russians who support his eighteenth century megalomania.

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AuthorMusician
post Jul 18 2014, 03:00 PM
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1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?

It's looking as if the separatists were indeed at fault, and it was a typical SNAFU/FUBAR, according to communications that have come out.

2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?

Putin is now experiencing what a huge pile of poo he has stepped into. It'd be smart for the US to leverage this event against Putin's ambitions. The obvious place to exercise the leverage is among the European countries still doing trade with Russia.

3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?

Interesting way to put it. The airline will likely be sued by the dozen or so countries with flesh in this thing. The company was likely trying to save a few bucks on fuel.

4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?

I think the response is reasonable, in that the facts are being collected and analyzed. This doesn't say anything about how it will play out.

5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?

World sentiments have just gone to the Ukrainian government over the separatists. However, it was pretty much there anyway, and this also points to an accidental situation. Nobody had anything to gain, and Putin has already lost.

6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?


It is fairly certain that this incident was not done on purpose. So what do you do with poorly trained men trying to be soldiers and having weapons far beyond their abilities to use them?

Throw them into the Stupid Slammer? Seriously, it'd be manslaughter. Up to 15 years in prison would be appropriate if this were not a war zone. The perps probably will get away with it.

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Aquilla
post Jul 19 2014, 03:47 AM
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I am going to join "Team Obama" :gasp: Here is what we do.....


1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?




Hold a fund-raiser with a bunch of billionaire liberals (proving you don't need brains to make money).

2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?


Some of the separatists are probably former Ukraine military that have been trained in the use of this system. Nothing there.

3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?


Kind of a dumb thing to do, but then again, it helps Boeing to sell more airplanes to them.


4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?


US response has been typical, "strong letter to follow". Putin? "Yeah right"

5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?


None, we'll "lead from behind" meaning Putin makes the calls. Everyone comfortable with that?

6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?


We need to put that crack investigator, Eric Holder, on this. He'll get to the truth. Just don't send Lois Lerner to collect the black boxes, she'll break them.


Aquilla
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AuthorMusician
post Jul 19 2014, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 18 2014, 11:47 PM) *
I am going to join "Team Obama" :gasp: Here is what we do.....

1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
Hold a fund-raiser with a bunch of billionaire liberals (proving you don't need brains to make money).

Heh, yeah. It'd be better than the conservative response of running in there, guns blazing, we'll just rack up more debt to accomplish nothing and actually make things worse. Economy crashes, but so what? We'll just rack up more debt to keep it going, and onward we go for what might be a long time.

As more information comes out, this is still looking like a stupid accident. Hey, what happens when I push that button? Putin has been jumping all over the place trying to make it seem not his fault.

It isn't working, and now almost all of Europe is against him. It won't take much persuading from Obama to slap more sanctions on Russia. The problem with this is it might go too far, pushing Putin to start invading the places that have the stuff he wants in Russia. It could blow up into WW III, and this time with more nukes than WW II.

So let's hope that doesn't happen.
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Aquilla
post Jul 19 2014, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 19 2014, 11:01 AM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 18 2014, 11:47 PM) *
I am going to join "Team Obama" :gasp: Here is what we do.....

1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
Hold a fund-raiser with a bunch of billionaire liberals (proving you don't need brains to make money).

Heh, yeah. It'd be better than the conservative response of running in there, guns blazing, we'll just rack up more debt to accomplish nothing and actually make things worse. Economy crashes, but so what? We'll just rack up more debt to keep it going, and onward we go for what might be a long time.

As more information comes out, this is still looking like a stupid accident. Hey, what happens when I push that button? Putin has been jumping all over the place trying to make it seem not his fault.

It isn't working, and now almost all of Europe is against him. It won't take much persuading from Obama to slap more sanctions on Russia. The problem with this is it might go too far, pushing Putin to start invading the places that have the stuff he wants in Russia. It could blow up into WW III, and this time with more nukes than WW II.

So let's hope that doesn't happen.



Nobody has supported running in with guns blazing. Reagan ended the cold war and defeated the Soviets without firing a shot. He did that with a coherent set of policies and strong leadership. Your Messiah is incapable of either. He does a good standup routine, but that's about it.

Our friends don't trust us, our foes don't respect us. Given the current state of the Presidency, my best solution would be to send John Kerry over to have a 4 hour chat with Putin. 4 Hours in the same room with Kerry would either result in complete surrender or a pre-emptive strike. rolleyes.gif

Aquilla
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Ted
post Jul 19 2014, 06:05 PM
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the latest news is pretty damming for Russia. the sophisticated missile system could not have been operated by the "separatists"...this is no shoulder fired missile.
Our response should be to jack up the sanctions and consider at least arms to the Ukrainian government . we know for a fact that all kinds of heavy weapons including tanks are pouring in over the eastern border. clearly madman Putin intends to have the east as a minimum.

this will have little impact on the conflict unless NATO wakes up - unlikely. Russia will deny all proof, gram all evidence that can at the scene and ignore the world....Putin doesn't give a damn what the world thinks - he may care about what the world does - which has been nearly nothing to date.

Finally let me say again as I have in the past. with thousands of shoulder fired missiles lose all over the world and nuts like Putin giving (and operating) big air defense systems to whoever, we need to fund systems that will protect our airliners. the systems have been out there for some time....

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Aquilla
post Jul 19 2014, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE(Ted @ Jul 19 2014, 01:05 PM) *
the latest news is pretty damming for Russia. the sophisticated missile system could not have been operated by the "separatists"...this is no shoulder fired missile.



Keep in mind, Ted, some of those "separatists" could have been in the Ukraine military and been trained in the use of that missile system prior to them going rogue.

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Ted
post Jul 19 2014, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 02:31 PM) *
QUOTE(Ted @ Jul 19 2014, 01:05 PM) *
the latest news is pretty damming for Russia. the sophisticated missile system could not have been operated by the "separatists"...this is no shoulder fired missile.



Keep in mind, Ted, some of those "separatists" could have been in the Ukraine military and been trained in the use of that missile system prior to them going rogue.

Aquilla

the system came from Russia - we know that because they caught it on camera going back. if the Russians were stupid enough to give this system to people who clearly screwed up in using it they bear the blame...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-26...light-MH17.html
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Aquilla
post Jul 19 2014, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE(Ted @ Jul 19 2014, 01:50 PM) *
the system came from Russia - we know that because they caught it on camera going back. if the Russians were stupid enough to give this system to people who clearly screwed up in using it they bear the blame...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-26...light-MH17.html



I don't question that at all. And I don't absolve the Russians/Soviets of any complicity in this. Putin's hands are all over it. But, I don't think the argument that the separatists lacked the training in that missile holds much water. They may very well have been trained at some point by the Russians/Soviets.

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AuthorMusician
post Jul 19 2014, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 02:04 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 19 2014, 11:01 AM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 18 2014, 11:47 PM) *
I am going to join "Team Obama" :gasp: Here is what we do.....

1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
Hold a fund-raiser with a bunch of billionaire liberals (proving you don't need brains to make money).

Heh, yeah. It'd be better than the conservative response of running in there, guns blazing, we'll just rack up more debt to accomplish nothing and actually make things worse. Economy crashes, but so what? We'll just rack up more debt to keep it going, and onward we go for what might be a long time.

As more information comes out, this is still looking like a stupid accident. Hey, what happens when I push that button? Putin has been jumping all over the place trying to make it seem not his fault.

It isn't working, and now almost all of Europe is against him. It won't take much persuading from Obama to slap more sanctions on Russia. The problem with this is it might go too far, pushing Putin to start invading the places that have the stuff he wants in Russia. It could blow up into WW III, and this time with more nukes than WW II.

So let's hope that doesn't happen.



Nobody has supported running in with guns blazing. Reagan ended the cold war and defeated the Soviets without firing a shot. He did that with a coherent set of policies and strong leadership. Your Messiah is incapable of either. He does a good standup routine, but that's about it.

Our friends don't trust us, our foes don't respect us. Given the current state of the Presidency, my best solution would be to send John Kerry over to have a 4 hour chat with Putin. 4 Hours in the same room with Kerry would either result in complete surrender or a pre-emptive strike. rolleyes.gif

Aquilla

Heh, flying into the face of history has to be tough. But carry on with criticizing the sitting POTUS about foreign affairs that you know precious little about. Republicans seem to have invented cute little euphemisms to hide their real agenda to send our military into each and every situation out there:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/...act-in-ukraine/

They are not to be trusted, and that is the legacy of 9/11/01 that they have earned.

McCain should really keep his trap shut. He was the one wanting to stay in Iraq for a hundred years or so.

Anyway, I hope President Obama's team does indeed pull off some kind of deal that keeps Putin from launching nukes. The potential of global thermonuclear war should offset petty partisan politics. Sorry about spitting so much.
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Aquilla
post Jul 20 2014, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 19 2014, 05:10 PM) *
Heh, flying into the face of history has to be tough. But carry on with criticizing the sitting POTUS about foreign affairs that you know precious little about. Republicans seem to have invented cute little euphemisms to hide their real agenda to send our military into each and every situation out there:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/...act-in-ukraine/

They are not to be trusted, and that is the legacy of 9/11/01 that they have earned.

McCain should really keep his trap shut. He was the one wanting to stay in Iraq for a hundred years or so.

Anyway, I hope President Obama's team does indeed pull off some kind of deal that keeps Putin from launching nukes. The potential of global thermonuclear war should offset petty partisan politics. Sorry about spitting so much.



I know as much about "foreign affairs" as Obama does since he claims to find out everything from "the news". Hell, I might even know more because I watch FOX News.

Face it, the guy is CLUELESS. He doesn't know what to do about anything, so he just plays golf and goes to fund-raisers. Good gig if you can get it.

Aquilla
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Dingo
post Jul 20 2014, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 05:32 PM) *
I know as much about "foreign affairs" as Obama does since he claims to find out everything from "the news". Hell, I might even know more because I watch FOX News.

Throw in a little Limbaugh supplement with Beck for desert and you should have yourself covered. wacko.gif
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Aquilla
post Jul 20 2014, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE(Dingo @ Jul 19 2014, 08:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 05:32 PM) *
I know as much about "foreign affairs" as Obama does since he claims to find out everything from "the news". Hell, I might even know more because I watch FOX News.

Throw in a little Limbaugh supplement with Beck for desert and you should have yourself covered. wacko.gif



That's a useful comment, and quite typical of you. Obama himself has claimed to hear about his own ineptness from the news. If you have a problem with that, don't blame Rush or Glenn Beck. You elected the idiot.

Aquilla
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AuthorMusician
post Jul 20 2014, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 11:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Jul 19 2014, 08:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 05:32 PM) *
I know as much about "foreign affairs" as Obama does since he claims to find out everything from "the news". Hell, I might even know more because I watch FOX News.

Throw in a little Limbaugh supplement with Beck for desert and you should have yourself covered. wacko.gif



That's a useful comment, and quite typical of you. Obama himself has claimed to hear about his own ineptness from the news. If you have a problem with that, don't blame Rush or Glenn Beck. You elected the idiot.

Aquilla

OMG, now I see it! The enormous wisdom of the shills has finally penetrated my poor brainwashed noggin. I am so ashamed of having voted for Obama twice that I will never, ever vote for him again.

That is my solemn promise to the world and our country, tis of thee.

Anyway, Putin's goons screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner full of innocent people, and everyone died. Now what?

A. We intervene with our military and force Crimea back into the fold.

B. We increase sanctions on Russia, hoping that this doesn't force Putin to retaliate somehow (thinking nukes here).

C. We do nothing and wait for Putin's inevitable fall from power.

D. We sue the stuffing out of airlines that try to save a few bucks on fuel while risking their customers' lives.

E. We give tax cuts to the rich and deregulate Wall Street.

F. We restrict women's rights and promote corporations' rights.

G. We buy firearms in case we ever get invaded or something.

H. We vote for Republicans in 2014 and 2016 because Obama is such a poopy pants.

So, what's it going to be?
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Ted
post Jul 20 2014, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 20 2014, 08:56 AM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 11:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Jul 19 2014, 08:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jul 19 2014, 05:32 PM) *
I know as much about "foreign affairs" as Obama does since he claims to find out everything from "the news". Hell, I might even know more because I watch FOX News.

Throw in a little Limbaugh supplement with Beck for desert and you should have yourself covered. wacko.gif



That's a useful comment, and quite typical of you. Obama himself has claimed to hear about his own ineptness from the news. If you have a problem with that, don't blame Rush or Glenn Beck. You elected the idiot.

Aquilla

OMG, now I see it! The enormous wisdom of the shills has finally penetrated my poor brainwashed noggin. I am so ashamed of having voted for Obama twice that I will never, ever vote for him again.

That is my solemn promise to the world and our country, tis of thee.

Anyway, Putin's goons screwed up and shot down a commercial airliner full of innocent people, and everyone died. Now what?

A. We intervene with our military and force Crimea back into the fold.

B. We increase sanctions on Russia, hoping that this doesn't force Putin to retaliate somehow (thinking nukes here).

C. We do nothing and wait for Putin's inevitable fall from power.

D. We sue the stuffing out of airlines that try to save a few bucks on fuel while risking their customers' lives.

E. We give tax cuts to the rich and deregulate Wall Street.

F. We restrict women's rights and promote corporations' rights.

G. We buy firearms in case we ever get invaded or something.

H. We vote for Republicans in 2014 and 2016 because Obama is such a poopy pants.

So, what's it going to be?

ya sure - so sanctions leads him right to a nuclear war he cannot win - Really??? LOL laugh.gif

so your argument is just do as Obama does - look weak and wait for the next attack/takeover...

Sanctions and their threat is probably all that is saving the rest of Ukraine - we need more of em right now. and I do believe the other NATO allies need to step up here.

and if you think Putin is going to "fall from power" tell me how that happens - and then tell me the guy that replaces him will be some nice guy ready for pressing the "reset button" again laugh.gif
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