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covid questions
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 24 2020, 03:30 PM
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I hope I did this poll correctly (it has been a long while).
I am curious how many people know anyone who has had covid. We know a great many people, and out of all of them we only know four personally who had covid.
None of them had to go to the hospital for treatment (not even our seventy-something year old neighbors).

What are your thoughts on the lockdown? This is casual, no debate.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 25 2020, 01:24 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 27 2021, 04:16 PM
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Okay, since posting this I still know no one who has died of covid, but probably 90 or more people who have tested positive (some very ill, others seemingly completely well).

Weird stuff happening. I feel like I can rant a bit as this is casual conversation.
Lines are drawn.
There seems no middle ground. The vaccine right now seems to be a sort of "purity test". And on the flip side, the anti-vax side largely sees it as a "purity" test as well.
The world has gone mad.
Just saw a video (ostensibly) about the reaction of blood to the vaccine.
There were a number of mistakes that would be obvious to any person who has worked with blood in a hematology lab.
I thought I'd offer my opinion, having been ASCP certified and worked in a medical lab once upon a time.
People I thought were considered and reasonable absolutely believed this video, and would not believe me.
Cognitive dissonance is so strong now it beggars belief.
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droop224
post Oct 28 2021, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 27 2021, 10:16 AM) *
Okay, since posting this I still know no one who has died of covid, but probably 90 or more people who have tested positive (some very ill, others seemingly completely well).

Weird stuff happening. I feel like I can rant a bit as this is casual conversation.
Lines are drawn.
There seems no middle ground. The vaccine right now seems to be a sort of "purity test". And on the flip side, the anti-vax side largely sees it as a "purity" test as well.
The world has gone mad.
Just saw a video (ostensibly) about the reaction of blood to the vaccine.
There were a number of mistakes that would be obvious to any person who has worked with blood in a hematology lab.
I thought I'd offer my opinion, having been ASCP certified and worked in a medical lab once upon a time.
People I thought were considered and reasonable absolutely believed this video, and would not believe me.
Cognitive dissonance is so strong now it beggars belief.


Few questions. I don't want to assume.

1. Are you vaccinated?
2. What was wrong with video in your opinion. Was the video incorrectly showing the vaccine is safe or incorrectly trying to show the vaccine was dangerous?
3. What would be the middle ground?


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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 28 2021, 01:19 AM
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Thanks for the response, Droop.
1. Are you vaccinated?
Yes.

2. What was wrong with video in your opinion. Was the video incorrectly showing the vaccine is safe or incorrectly trying to show the vaccine was dangerous?
It was incorrectly showing a slide "presentation" of the "de-oxygenation" of blood treated with the vaccine under a microscope.
I'm not saying I'm God's gift to laboratory science, but I do know a medical lab would not use this as a diagnosis.
The blood has to be dried and stained, otherwise it is very very difficult or impossible to tell.
There is no reason not to prepare a slide that way unless one was either being purposefully misleading, or they didn't know. These were supposed medical professionals. They should know.

3. What would be the middle ground?

I'd say the vaccine is good for some people. Not good for others, depending on the age and other factors. If a person has antibodies already a vaccine is not required (at this point there is a lot of evidence to indicate natural antibodies last longer).

Edited to add:
Everything these days seems geared toward establishing which "team" one is on. It has always been that way to a point, but I think now it is more so than ever.
I can't be the only one noticing this?

Edited to add:
World in data link. This seems very useful for tracking covid cases around the world.
The country to country comparison is useful.
In particular please look at Israel, the most highly vaccinated population on earth right now.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 29 2021, 02:36 PM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 30 2021, 12:02 AM
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I just found a link to a Facebook post that mentions much the same of what I was speaking of, above.
Here

I'm not sure what a "nutrition microscopist" is, but a microscopic analysis of any "live blood smear" without the staining is basically quack science.
This is true even of veterinary medicine.
The slide has to be prepared right, or it is discarded as worthless.

Edited to add:
On the flip side, here is a Lancet article on the study of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals regarding viral load

The population seems to be split in half with a good portion of crazy people on each side, and everyone is claiming to follow the science.

Edited to add:
While I'm talking to myself, my spouse flies for Southwest.
Our family had covid (except for moi, for some reason), so he has antibodies. He doesn't really care if he gets the vaccine, but what he does fear is the unforeseen consequences of government vaccine mandates for employment. Several of the pilots he flies with have been vaccinated and are still going to apply for exemptions. I'd say the rate of vaccination of pilots is probably around 90 percent (and a lot of that remaining 10 percent have had the virus).
But they don't want to be subjected to boosters indefinitely, which they suspect is the modus operandi forthcoming.

My mom had a traumatic brain injury in December, so I got the vax to visit (she doesn't recognize me anymore, and is afraid of the mask, so I take it off when we are alone in her room).

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Nov 2 2021, 12:00 AM
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droop224
post Nov 12 2021, 11:13 PM
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Well i asked those questions to try to gauge the "purity tests" you find yourself in. My guess its more with Conservative friends. Trust me that while debating liberals can be annoying to me, I hope you feel my pain when debating Conservatives that disagree with you.
Haha... just teasing, a little.

I'm not 100% behind vaccine mandates, but i can say without a doubt i am now more than i ever was.

I can remember back in the 90's when the military mandated all Marines get an anthrax vaccine. If you didn't you were discharged. Now, looking back, were we an experiment or was Uncle Sam just wanted to protect its investment. Its been years and i don't know the long term effects of that vaccine. But what i can say is there was FAR LESS necessity for that vaccine then there was for COVID-19.

Also I don't think you should support the two teams argument to tough. Sometimes there are two teams, but sometimes there is just one group making a team innately making the other group willing or not into a team by default.

I think leftist like myself get they hesitancy that there is so much we don't know about the vaccine. But this, this has been a deliberate attack on Americans by the Republican party to create a divide in order to win. First there was the disbelief that COVID was even a thing... then the bodies started dropping, and the hospitals filled up, then the morgues filled up.

Did Democrats politicize the response to COVID, I think so. That's a fair criticism. But Republicans have politicized the actual disease and then the vaccine. That's dangerous to all of us.

In our lifetime, we haven't had a disease like this. And I'm not so stupid or blind to not see the economical benefits of hastily developing a vaccine or that the vaccine was made and tested hastily, but I see the necessity for a hastily made vaccine. And now because, social media, Fox news, conservative radio... as a society we may need a mandate.

And i will ask cause you seem to know more than me medically. What happens if a large percentage of Americans remain unnvaccinated? Is there any danger to the rest of society? Is that just leftist propaganda? Or is it reasonable to believe that the virus continues to mutate until current vaccines become less and less effective?

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crawdaddy79
post Nov 14 2021, 03:23 AM
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I think it's been ten years since I've looked in on this forum.

This is the only thread with any posts since July.

Voted. I directly know about 80 people who have had COVID and none were hospitalized. I know of three people who were hospitalized (and of another hundred or so who have tested positive) and one of the hospitalized died, while a second died months later from an arterial infection after an emergency surgery.

Came here hoping the site creators restarted the podcast that this thing was built around. You know, now that podcasting is becoming a major media vessel. No such luck. sad.gif

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 14 2021, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Nov 12 2021, 07:13 PM) *
I can remember back in the 90's when the military mandated all Marines get an anthrax vaccine. If you didn't you were discharged. Now, looking back, were we an experiment or was Uncle Sam just wanted to protect its investment. Its been years and i don't know the long term effects of that vaccine. But what i can say is there was FAR LESS necessity for that vaccine then there was for COVID-19.


Yeah, my spouse had to get them too. We lived in the ROK at the time.
They ran out of vaccine halfway through, then were told they had to start the series all over again. I agree there was much less reason for that.
At that time there were no real studies on pregnant women either, and in our units they too were required to receive the vaccine.
After thousands of service members experienced different types of side effects the DOD claimed to study the problem, and decided there were not enough side effects to matter.
But then the GAO (general accounting office) had a survey and far found more reported adverse reactions than reported VAERs.
Reasons respondents gave for not reporting to the military chain of command included a lack of awareness of VAERS, a concern about the loss of flight status, a possibly adverse effect on military or civilian career, and a fear of ridicule.
So the GAO recommended an active surveillance program since (as you note) it was adversely impacting retention rates of trained and experienced people (more important than just head count, much like the healthcare industry is now getting crushed as experienced people are in burnout mode).

The DOD responded by dropping the mandate rather than creating an active surveillance program.
Take from that what you will.
This is when I first started to have my doubts about mass forced vaccination programs (of only partially effective vaccines in particular...it was well known at that time the vaccine would offer little actual protection against a real weaponized anthrax attack)
I've discussed it here before.

QUOTE
And i will ask cause you seem to know more than me medically. What happens if a large percentage of Americans remain unnvaccinated?


A pretty large percentage of Americans are already vaccinated (more than half of adults in most states...think here in Colorado it's around 75 percent now).
How large of a percentage is significant enough? We don't have the data to make that determination.
If there were testing so we can have a good estimate of how many people have already acquired Covid (whether they know it or not) it would be a lot easier to judge.
At present Israel probably offers the best, most comprehensive data and according to them (though they are on their fourth booster or some such) natural immunity trumps artificially acquired. So the best case scenario at present seems to be either infection without incident (asymptomatic infection can spread the disease, but it's far less likely) or infection after the vaccine (so symptoms are far lower than they otherwise would be).

I do not think continued boosters until the end of time are the smart move.
The FDA panel did reject recommending boosters for the general public in a vote of 16 to 2, and a couple of officials quit and wrote their reasons in an article published in the Lancet. That made me take notice. These were strong advocates of getting the vaccine, but they also felt strongly enough against mandated boosters to leave on principle.
Because they fear the effects of mRNA vaccines are cumulative.
As indicated in the past when the side effects in studies of mRNA therapeutics were deemed "non trivial".
The CDC is correct in their claim that mRNA technology has been studied for decades. There is a reason none ever made it to the public.

I should add, keep in mind the above pertains to booster recommendation for the "general public".
For elderly and/or high risk categories the boosters ARE recommended. This is where information gets crossed. It is an important detail.

Edited to add:
The most recent information available as far as I know regarding covid, vaccinations, and the spread of disease from Johns Hopkins website

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Nov 14 2021, 04:26 PM
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droop224
post Nov 15 2021, 01:40 PM
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Mrs. P
QUOTE
A pretty large percentage of Americans are already vaccinated (more than half of adults in most states...think here in Colorado it's around 75 percent now).
How large of a percentage is significant enough? We don't have the data to make that determination.


And that is a fair point, however, who would anti vaxxers trust to make the determination? They don't seem to trust news unless it comes from Tik Tok or Instagram AND confirms their bias. Obviously do a study, collect data, have it independently peer reviewed, then make a determination.

QUOTE
At present Israel probably offers the best, most comprehensive data and according to them (though they are on their fourth booster or some such) natural immunity trumps artificially acquired. So the best case scenario at present seems to be either infection without incident (asymptomatic infection can spread the disease, but it's far less likely) or infection after the vaccine (so symptoms are far lower than they otherwise would be).
Even this study was greatly taken out of context by the anti vaxxers I know. I went and read the study. Its clearly saying that the data should not be construed that the better route is to get vaccinated. Because the other route requires you get COVID and more than likely spread it. So while the antibodies proved to be stronger and more durable when made from COVID, rather than the vaccine, your body had to actually fight off COVID to get to that point. That study also showed that having the vaccine after having COVID further increases your protection from COVID or quickened your recovery time if you were still infected.

Which brings up yet another gripe I have. Somehow, some way, people against the vaccine don't know the difference between the words "protect/protection" and "immunity." Every time they make a rhetorical argument it goes something like... "So you have the vaccine that means you are protected, so why do you care if I have the vaccine? If you are protected, then others having it won't affect you." Or they present the fact that people get COVID and die to make a point that the vaccine doesn't work. I'm like... "Yo I'm not a doctor, you are not a doctor, but i don't know of doctors saying what you say"

I try to make rhetorical analogies like "Sometimes, people who wear their seatbelts, still die in car accidents." or "It's important for a boxer to put his hands up, bob, and weave to protect themselves but that doesn't mean they can't be punched in the face or worst get knocked out."

QUOTE
I do not think continued boosters until the end of time are the smart move.
The FDA panel did reject recommending boosters for the general public in a vote of 16 to 2, and a couple of officials quit and wrote their reasons in an article published in the Lancet. That made me take notice. These were strong advocates of getting the vaccine, but they also felt strongly enough against mandated boosters to leave on principle.
Because they fear the effects of mRNA vaccines are cumulative.
As indicated in the past when the side effects in studies of mRNA therapeutics were deemed "non trivial".
The CDC is correct in their claim that mRNA technology has been studied for decades. There is a reason none ever made it to the public.

I should add, keep in mind the above pertains to booster recommendation for the "general public".
For elderly and/or high risk categories the boosters ARE recommended. This is where information gets crossed. It is an important detail.


I don't plan on getting a booster unless it is mandated at this time, but i haven't ruled it out. I do want to wait for more research. But eventually if we don't figure out how to slow this virus, whatever i currently have will prove less and less effective, but maybe effective enough for my body to create new antibodies if i get infected, with out getting hospitalized... or getting dead!! ph34r.gif
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 15 2021, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Nov 15 2021, 09:40 AM) *
Mrs. P
Even this study was greatly taken out of context by the anti vaxxers I know. I went and read the study. Its clearly saying that the data should not be construed that the better route is to get vaccinated. Because the other route requires you get COVID and more than likely spread it. So while the antibodies proved to be stronger and more durable when made from COVID, rather than the vaccine, your body had to actually fight off COVID to get to that point. That study also showed that having the vaccine after having COVID further increases your protection from COVID or quickened your recovery time if you were still infected.


If a person has not had covid, it is far better (in general) to get the vaccine than to wait for the virus to get you. That is true.
The virus is more dangerous than the vaccine (with the possible exception of healthy people under 30, especially young men...which is why Germany and Sweden now advise against the moderna vaccine for those under 30). But those who have already had covid might not want to take a double risk, even a minimal risk. And since their antibodies are more effective, why should they have to (especially people in the under 30 group) when solid evidence indicates the Covid recovered have stronger and longer-lasting immunity than the vaccinated.

To put this in context (re mandates), many of the Covid recovered were exposed to the virus as essential workers during the height of the pandemic (before vaccines were available).
They served as emergency workers, transported goods and people, processed food, unloaded ships, picked up garbage, policed the streets, maintained the electricity network, put out fires, and cared for the old and sick.
Why should they now be fired and excluded despite having stronger immunity than the vaccinated work-from-home administrators that are firing them?
This isn't a difficult problem...we could sold it overnight with antibody titers and rapid testing. So every worker who doesn't want the vaccine and has antibodies shouldn't be required to get it. And others can test every day they work. Probably solved.
People who are vaccinated, and people who have had covid are still able to catch and spread the virus but without symptoms and lower viral loads they are far less likely.
That is probably as close to herd immunity as a free society can hope for.
But instead everyone wants to pick a team and scream at everyone on the other side.

QUOTE
Which brings up yet another gripe I have. Somehow, some way, people against the vaccine don't know the difference between the words "protect/protection" and "immunity." Every time they make a rhetorical argument it goes something like... "So you have the vaccine that means you are protected, so why do you care if I have the vaccine? If you are protected, then others having it won't affect you." Or they present the fact that people get COVID and die to make a point that the vaccine doesn't work. I'm like... "Yo I'm not a doctor, you are not a doctor, but i don't know of doctors saying what you say"


Agreed. I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE
I don't plan on getting a booster unless it is mandated at this time, but i haven't ruled it out. I do want to wait for more research. But eventually if we don't figure out how to slow this virus, whatever i currently have will prove less and less effective, but maybe effective enough for my body to create new antibodies if i get infected, with out getting hospitalized... or getting dead!! ph34r.gif


Once vaccine mandates are in place it opens the door to more mandates. It is harder to stop that snowball once it starts rolling. I do not relish a future where life requires everyone to constantly maintain vaccination status, even if it is 100 percent safe.

Now, I've probably stated most everything on my mind regarding these vaccines. But let me put my tin foil hat on for a moment...it isn't even conspiracy, it's just fact.
I'll use airplane manufacturing to illustrate.
In the airplane industry when they are creating those jet designs, they have some sort of risk analysis and if the reward/risk ratio is high enough, they keep the design flaws.**
This isn't a secret, it happened with wire sheering in the F16. It happened with several other accidents that my spouse is aware of that did not make it public.
Sometimes the analysis is wrong, and a flaw that should only effect a plane one in 8 million times causes an accident the 500th time. At that time they fix the flaw.
When the company is permitted to certify itself the ratio leans more toward tolerating risk.
We saw this recently with Boeing and the 737 MAX (the FAA essentially allowed them to self certify..."hey you think it's okay? Sounds good to me! You're the experts!")

Look for conflicts of interest on the board of the FDA.
FDA commissioners should not have served on the boards of directors for major pharmaceutical companies, but this is the case very often.
When Mike was a commander, he had to recuse himself from any decisions with potential conflict of interest. For example, since he had worked for SWA if there was a contract involving SWA he could not be involved in any process of that decision. There is good reason for this.

**I should add, much like medicine, there has to be an "acceptable risk profile" because it is virtually impossible to eliminate all risk, all the time.

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Ataal
post Nov 18 2021, 10:08 PM
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Wow, it's been a while. I actually came here looking to see if the Rittenhouse trial was being discussed. But, since I'm here, I figured I'd chime in on the Covid thing.

I know probably a hundred people, personally and from work, who have had Covid. I know probably a dozen who have died from it. Including the only two people(ages 36 and 50) I spent really any time with over the last 5 years or so. I no longer have any "hang out with" friends and that's a real bummer. It seems like it's so much harder to make friends like that when you're in your 40s than your 20s. Although Google is telling me that the mortality rate ranges from 30%-50% if you're placed on a ventilator, everyone I know who went on a ventilator died within a week.

Someone mentioned people picking a side on this whole thing. I've been saying that for over a year now. How did a disease become so political? And, why is it so black and white for everyone? I see people unfriending people on social media if they don't have the vaccine. I also see people "laugh reacting" to "4,000 new cases today" in my Phoenix news group on Facebook calling it "lies" and "fear tactics."

A little about my own situation: I'm turning 44 tomorrow. I'm also diabetic with a few other "underlying issues." Honestly, I was a little worried about getting the shot at first. Not "anti-vax," but just....worried. So, for quite a while, I wore a mask everywhere, never left the house, other than work, unless I absolutely needed to. It wasn't really that hard. I'm pretty much a home-body, anyway. Then, my work said they were going to be sending me to North Carolina for a week to transition a new acquisition to our network/domain. No one knew what the airlines were going to be requiring, what North Carolina's numbers were going to be at that time, etc.. So, it kind of pushed me in the right direction. My symptoms from the shot were very mild compared to stories I had heard from others. Some pretty severe bruising (baseball size, and bright yellow)on my arm was pretty much it. I got back from North Carolina last Friday. All is well.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 19 2021, 02:26 AM
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Great to see people coming back to check in!

I'm so sorry to hear about your close friends passing, Ataal. sad.gif

It's a really strange disease.
Tomorrow I'm taking a class with an instructor who was a paramedic at the beginning of covid.
She was in excellent shape, but at that time they didn't allow her to wear the N95s because they were saving them for "confirmed" covid cases.
So she got it, and almost died.
She is still suffering effects and doesn't think she will ever be able to be a paramedic again, but she can teach.

If you want to start a Rittenhouse topic, feel free. I might participate. smile.gif

Edited to add: Happy birthday!

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