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> Child's Play in a tightening race., I have some videos I recorded from a Mitt Romney rally in Asheville...
net2007
post Oct 16 2012, 09:13 AM
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I attended the Asheville Civic Center on Thursday evening to watch a local Mitt Romney Rally and I have to say it was a unique experience. Having debated here for years I wanted to share that experience and get some feedback. My neighbor and friend Kiffin let me borrow his digital camera so I was able to get some photographs and videos that I'm going to share here, he's not much into politics but came through for me that morning. I found out about this event Thursday morning because someone I admire very much actually told me about it and printed out the ticket I needed to get inside yet she's not a fan of Romney at all.

As far as this debate goes I'm going to get to the guts of it quick. I had a good time but the bitterness I saw at times was surreal and this being a very liberal city hosting a rally for Mitt Romney the bitterness I saw came from the left. That, and negativity abroad effecting the election will be the focus of this debate. Some of the things I saw on Thursday solidified what I already knew. Anger and frustration can consume and defeat anyone who lets it and politics sets the stage for high amounts of disgust.

The worst thing I saw that day was on my walk back home. One lady hung out her window and flipped me off as I got a couple blocks away from the Civic Center. Like an idiot I told her I'm being nice over here the best I can, but I should have ignored her. She cursed me out so I kept on walking. A couple blocks further down a group of young guys snickered as I walked by. The red "Dan Forest for LT. Gov" sticker I had on my shirt probably gave me away. That and walking from the direction of the Romney rally.

I didn't record these things so you'll have to take that on scouts honor. I was being as civil as I could given the situation and for the most part I kept my mouth shut.
I uploaded all the things I did record to Youtube but the camera angles and quality could have been better. I had a 4 gig memory card so I had to cut down the quality a bit and I couldn't record everything. The entire event can be viewed here in higher quality ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/BuncombeCountyVideos


First video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi74LT4ME5k

I was just getting close to the entry point and approaching some of the protesting. 5:55 seconds into this I start talking a bit to put my opinion out.

Me: "Everybody's out here smiling, this guy's really upset......."

I go on a bit from their before I enter the building, but anyone here can conclude what they want from this. For a protest in Asheville for a Mitt Romeny
rally it really wasn't all too bad. It was after I left that a couple people took it over the line, at that point I had the camera off and was just walking home.

Before I show the rest of these videos I'm going to get to the point about why this is going to effect this election and how it could lead to Mitt Romney winning this which is something I would have never thought last month. I'm sure everybody saw the VP debate. Look at this compilation of Joe Biden just snickering and grinning at Paul Ryan throughout the debate, Biden didn't take him seriously and it showed.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3MNzmaAzjo

I think liberals have always held many great beliefs. Open mindedness, acceptance, or living in peace are great examples. The problem I've had with warming up to the left is that in large part the behavior exhibited, at least by many, is in direct contradiction of the beliefs they hold. I've seen this so many times in both my personal life and in prior politics as well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQalRPQ8stI

The video Above was composed in 2008 during a Pro McCain rally in New York. You see enless streams of middle fingers, insults, ugliness, and IMO childishness. At that time politics was already shifting for Democrats no matter what so it didn't really matter but this time around it very well could. Mitt Romney is pulling ahead in the polls and if things keep going like this, for the first time I'm feeling like he might win. Some are even predicting a landslide victory but I don't think it will be by a large a margin if he does pull it off. I predict He'll win NC which went to Obama in 2008, and Florida is now looking promising for him too.

Do Conservatives or Republicans act hateful or stupid too? Right now there's positive energy on the right side of politics but the obvious answer is absolutely. Stupidity is a human trait not a liberal or conservative trait. That being said I think something has happened to the left wing since the Bush era in that the positive and open minded message they hold in such high regard has been lost.


More videos I took....


(VID2) In the Still of the Night...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJCsItFv0

This is when I first walked in, you'll hear some of the song in the still of the night performed by Ronnie Milsap. The civic center was full of positive energy that day and Mitt Romney supporters were really pumped up.



(VID3) Star Spangled Banner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvOiFyhgFYQ

Again, sorry for the camera angles at moments.



(VID4) Congressional Candidate Mark Meadows (great speech and not long if these are getting boring).......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S2vcqFMRPI




(VID5) Mike Huckabee speech and introducing Mitt Romney...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sYRO1GdCzg

Huckabee is my favorite politician on the scene today and has been since the 2008 elections. I voted for him in the primaries at that
time.



(VID6) Last bit of Romney's speech and Romney shaking some hands of supporters....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZvVETsUnM



(VID7) More protesting on the way out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dh0RxHa9_c



This another look at the protesters and me making some comments to a Romney supporter standing next to me.

Me: It's Just negativity

Him: It's pretty sad when just 10 people show up ((probably more like 30 protesters but it wasn't much))

Me: Yea that's what Im thinking, in Asheville? It's amazing


I go on from their a little and the guy next to me goes on a bit about Big Bird and the guy dressed up like Big Bird. I didn't see Jim Henson though sad.gif

As a side note the Civic Center seats 8000 people and it filled to the max which I didn't expect either.

(VID8) This last video is the one I like the most of the ones I caught of the protesters, not because it was negative, quite the contrary this woman was respectful....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgobHaHLhc


I ran out of available memory halfway through this one.

I looked for the most approachable protester I could find and initiated a conversation here, It was like a short debate. She was a self proclaimed independent but I could tell she was left leaning when I started talking with her. Out of respect I didn't point the camera at her but you can hear her pretty good.

This video is important because it's exactly what I'm looking for from anyone who is political. All the crazy things people say when they are worked up tend to be the things I've pointed out. I do this on debate sites like this and in my personal life sometimes because I'm tired of hearing it. None of this is worth losing sight of why you held your beliefs to begin with, whatever it is you do believe.

Anyway I guess that's enough of that.

Questions For Debate....

1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

4. What can president Obama do to redirect the momentum here?


This post has been edited by net2007: Oct 16 2012, 06:30 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 16 2012, 01:21 PM
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1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

No, not when it counts. The left wing is still intolerant of intolerance. The right wing likes to point this out, as if it's some sort of illogical stance.

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

Campaign negativity is practiced on both sides, and it has come to be a basic principle in campaign ads. If the Republicans want to play nice, they can stop lying about President Obama's record.

For example, his administration has actually reduced the budget deficit. Unemployment has come down recently, and the Republicans cast doubt on the numbers, as they do when the polls show President Obama ahead. Of course when the numbers favor Romney, it's indisputable fact.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

Sure we could be looking at an upset here, should the past tell us nothing about the present. Even though the polling numbers show a dead heat, keep in mind that the POTUS is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. GWB was a minority POTUS. He won the EC but not the popular vote when running for his first term against Gore, that infamous 2000 election season in which the SCOTUS called the final outcome.

4. What can pPresident Obama do to redirect the momentum here?

Why on earth would he want to do that? He's winning in Ohio, among women, among minorities and basically has this thing in the bag. He may lose Colorado, but we only have nine EC votes.

But if you mean the momentum toward Romney, I suppose President Obama could come out swinging tonight. He has to keep it low-keyed, unlike Biden who had no restrictions on treating Ryan like the little prick he is. That of course sent the Republican cheer leaders into a tizzy over Biden's brashness, how dare he and all that raw red hatred.
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Amlord
post Oct 16 2012, 02:28 PM
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1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

Liberals are not tolerant when it comes to difference of opinion. Their opinion is correct and you are not only wrong if you don't agree with them, but you are a xenophobe, a homophobe, a fear mongerer, a racist, a bigot, evil, or you want "dirty air and dirty water" or "E coli nation" or you want grandma to starve.

Case in point:
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 16 2012, 09:21 AM) *
He has to keep it low-keyed, unlike Biden who had no restrictions on treating Ryan like the little prick he is.


Now, I'm not saying that people on the right don't get mean and nasty, for example there is a history of racism on the right, but it is downright vitriolic on the left at times and to a much larger degree. Paul Ryan isn't just wrong on his policy choices, he's a "prick". This is just a remark in passing with nothing to back it up.

Do you notice that when people criticize the President's policies they don't call him a racist or a jackass or some other over-the-top adjective? (there are some exceptions, I'm looking at you Rush Limbaugh) Here on ad.gif it is clear (to me at least) where the intolerance lies.

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

All campaigns are negative. This one is no different.

Campaign negativity is practiced on both sides, and it has come to be a basic principle in campaign ads. If the Republicans want to play nice, they can stop lying about President Obama's record.

QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 16 2012, 09:21 AM) *
For example, his administration has actually reduced the budget deficit. Unemployment has come down recently, and the Republicans cast doubt on the numbers, as they do when the polls show President Obama ahead. Of course when the numbers favor Romney, it's indisputable fact.


Okay, you are wrong on the numbers, so I'm not sure where the problems are. Republicans criticize Obama on his policy choices and the results of those choices. They don't demonize him (generally) as an evil man who wants to eat children.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

I think Romney has a good chance at winning. The momentum is clearly on his side, even here in Ohio although he is not over the hump here yet. John Kasich has turned around this state from the failed policies of the previous governor and that is helping the President.

4. What can President Obama do to redirect the momentum here?

How about a plan to reduce the deficit? How about a jobs plan? A plan in Libya? How about NOT letting Secretary Hillary Clinton say the "buck stops here" with her and not with the President? The President is a nice guy, but a horrible leader.



net2007: I'll watch your videos when I get home tonight. I'm sure they're great.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 16 2012, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 16 2012, 10:28 AM) *
Okay, you are wrong on the numbers, so I'm not sure where the problems are. Republicans criticize Obama on his policy choices and the results of those choices. They don't demonize him (generally) as an evil man who wants to eat children.


So calling Ryan a little prick is as bad as accusing someone of being an evil liberal spawned by the devil? Okay, I can see you need to use hyperbole to make it seem you're winning something. Yep, and I'm assuming the guy has a penis problem, but what the hey. He acts like it, bragging about doing so great at athletics and getting called out on it.

But this year's budget deficit is less than last year's:

Dang if it isn't so.

QUOTE
The 2012 budget gap was $1.089 trillion, smaller than last year's deficit of $1.297 trillion largely because of higher corporate income tax receipts and less spending, the Treasury Department said on Friday.

The September budget surplus of $75 billion, which topped analyst expectations for a surplus of $42 billion, marked only the second month in the fiscal year ended September 30 that the country was in the black.


So I am right on the numbers, and I don't have to call you names to make the point.

BTW, having the opinion that black people are inferior to white people is racist. That's not hyperbole, even though it might hurt. Having the opinion that women are like animals (cattle, chattel) is actually misogynistic.

Saying that Romney is hiding something in his taxes that he won't release is a bona fide suspicion, especially since he has a history of lying about other things.
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Bikerdad
post Oct 16 2012, 03:55 PM
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Questions For Debate....

1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

asked and answered:
QUOTE
"unlike Biden who had no restrictions on treating Ryan like the little prick he is." - AuthorMusician


2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?
Yes, it's going to hurt him. If he personally goes nasty negative like Biden, then he's absolute toast.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.Yes. The real question is, is there a Brady Effect in play? If so, Obama is already dead, nothing left but waiting for the fat lady to sing. Otherwise, it's a squeaker either way.

4. What can president Obama do to redirect the momentum here?
I'm not really sure, other than smashing Romney in today's debate. Perp walking Jon Corzine would help some. I'd suggest firing Clinton, Sebelius, and Holder (Benghazi, illegal campaigning, Fast & Furious), but while doing so might earn some points from independents, it's more likely to frost the base and backfire because, with the exception of Clinton, it would be transparently political at this time.

Obama has three problems. First, he can't really run on his record. The folks who think he has done a good job aren't numerous enough to put him back in the WH. He can't run on his future plans, because they are, as best we can tell, more of the same. His campaign can't really let up on the negativity, because to do so will leave them with nothing else. I've never seen an incumbent run so hard on the platform of voting AGAINST the other guy, except perhaps Carter against Reagan. Reagan-Mondale, Bush-Clinton, Clinton-Dole, Bush-Kerry, those were all much more incumbent campaigns about "see, I've done a good job, give me another 4 years."

This post has been edited by Bikerdad: Oct 16 2012, 04:38 PM
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Dingo
post Oct 16 2012, 04:48 PM
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I guess you could say calling Romney a liar is negative. It's also the truth, a shameless serial liar and flip flopper he is. If lying negativity was the road to political oblivion the republican party would have been dead and buried by now. The first debate where Obama told the truth albeit not very effectively and Romney lied his butt off but did so with pizzazz and won the debate going away apparently tells you something about the low standard of political dialogue. The public with their WWE standard of judging a political contest have got to take the major burden of responsibility.

As for the topless videos, I thought the one I saw was kind of sweet. Where is the negativity in that?
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 16 2012, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Oct 16 2012, 11:55 AM) *
Questions For Debate....
1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

asked and answered:
QUOTE
"unlike Biden who had no restrictions on treating Ryan like the little prick he is." - AuthorMusician



OMG, yet another hyperbolic take on calling lyin' Ryan a little prick. Even the ad.gif curse word filter lets that pass.

But I'm only half joking about his penis problem. The guy has issues. I'm in agreement that President Obama has to be a lot slicker than VP Biden, and I'm sure he will be. He may even come right out and call a lie a lie, since the truth lies in that. On the other hand, Romney may now be so full of himself that he comes off like Biden, the impatient old fart trying to beat up the snotty-nosed Urkel.

Just got our mail-in ballots. There are 16 choices for POTUS:

Goode, American Constitution
Obama, Democratic
Romney, Republican
Johnson, Libertarian
Stein, Green
Alexander, Socialist USA
Anderson, Justice
Barr, Peace and Freedom (yep, it's Roseanne)
Harris, Socialist Workers
Hoefling, America's
La Riva, Socialism and Liberation
Miller, American Third Position
Reed, Unafiliated
Stevens, Objectivist
Tittle, We the People
White, Socialist Equity

And then you can write in somebody else.

I frankly don't remember a national election with this many options for POTUS, but maybe it's just that I'm paying attention this year from all the P-ing and moaning about the Big Two having it all locked up against third parties.

Wouldn't it be funny if both of the Big Two end up with pluralities? But the EC will have to be a majority, so maybe there will be more opportunities for people to get all hot and bothered.

This could be a first for me: One Republican guy is running unchallenged for DA of the 4th JD. Hey, he's got my vote!
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net2007
post Oct 16 2012, 10:23 PM
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AuthorMusician

QUOTE
1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

No, not when it counts. The left wing is still intolerant of intolerance. The right wing likes to point this out, as if it's some sort of illogical stance.


So that's it huh, Liberals are intolerant of intolerance? Not much more than that I suppose. Look, from what Ive seen in at least half of these cases there's been intolerance for simple differences of opinions. Just like with any political group the left is not free from this. In fact it's been since Ive started debating early in the Bush administration that Ive noticed this very strongly from the left. That young woman that flipped me off and cursed me out just outside the Civic Center on my way home didn't have a clue what I believed or that Im pretty moderate. All she knew is that i had a red sticker on my shirt and I was walking away from the support rally. Is that intolerance for intolerance, or just flat out intolerance?

Continued below....


QUOTE
QUOTE
2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?


Campaign negativity is practiced on both sides, and it has come to be a basic principle in campaign ads. If the Republicans want to play nice, they can stop lying about President Obama's record.

For example, his administration has actually reduced the budget deficit. Unemployment has come down recently, and the Republicans cast doubt on the numbers, as they do when the polls show President Obama ahead. Of course when the numbers favor Romney, it's indisputable fact.


I agree that's it's practiced on both ends, so your right AM. In the opening post I mention this....

"Do Conservatives or Republicans act hateful or stupid too? Right now there's positive energy on the right side of politics but the obvious answer is absolutely. Stupidity is a human trait not a liberal or conservative trait. That being said I think something has happened to the left wing since the Bush era in that the positive and open minded message they hold in such high regard has been lost."

As far as the job numbers, yes they've come down slowly but surely as they always do after a recession. What you also have to consider is the fact that right now we have about the same unemployment rate as it was at the highest point in the Bush Administration. Unemployment ranged from 4.3% to 7.2% under Bush. Up until the last few months of the Bush administration the Unemployment rate was actually good.

Right now the unemployment rate is 7.8%, so it's high. Just above what it was at any time under Bushes presidency.

Links...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/speci...ry/#reagan-bush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_poli..._administration

QUOTE
3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

Sure we could be looking at an upset here, should the past tell us nothing about the present. Even though the polling numbers show a dead heat, keep in mind that the POTUS is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. GWB was a minority POTUS. He won the EC but not the popular vote when running for his first term against Gore, that infamous 2000 election season in which the SCOTUS called the final outcome.


Yea, I was thinking about that too. Winning the electoral votes is going to be the difficult part for Mitt Romney, but that would make both parties even I suppose right? No doubt Id probably still hear about the election being rigged in 2000 but that's nothing new.

QUOTE
4. What can pPresident Obama do to redirect the momentum here?

Why on earth would he want to do that? He's winning in Ohio, among women, among minorities and basically has this thing in the bag. He may lose Colorado, but we only have nine EC votes......


Consider how fast things have changed in the last month. So yea I was talking about momentum, and that is key. Not how things stand now, but how they stand on election day.

Dingo

QUOTE(Dingo @ Oct 16 2012, 12:48 PM) *
I guess you could say calling Romney a liar is negative. It's also the truth, a shameless serial liar and flip flopper he is. If lying negativity was the road to political oblivion the republican party would have been dead and buried by now. The first debate where Obama told the truth albeit not very effectively and Romney lied his butt off but did so with pizzazz and won the debate going away apparently tells you something about the low standard of political dialogue. The public with their WWE standard of judging a political contest have got to take the major burden of responsibility.

As for the topless videos, I thought the one I saw was kind of sweet. Where is the negativity in that?


The last one with the lady i was talking to? It was sweet, I posted that one because I really wanted to show that their are Obama supporters who act very civil.
I really wasn't out their baiting liberals. I do know there's kind heated liberals who act that way, i really do. I'm dating one of them, kinda.

This post has been edited by net2007: Oct 16 2012, 10:24 PM
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 16 2012, 10:41 PM
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1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

I don't think so, the left has always been intolerant of other ideologies, at least in my experience........just like the right has. The left may attempt emotional camouflage while the right does the same with intellectual camouflage.....but I don't think there has been any real paradigm shift in this regard.

The left has a substantially deficient platform and ideology in many regards, which are all fair game for electoral targeting......but they are not the party that has engaged in a campaign to malign a fellow American as being....un-American or Anti-American....how much more immature and vitriolic can a party be and still be taken seriously? As I tell my GOP friends......with so many substantive issues to take the Obama Administration to the rhetorical woodshed over....why invent foundation-less tripe?

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

I'm unsure, since I don't see the same level of positivity from the Romney camp. I see a make-the-best-of-it/anybody-but-Obama mindset. If Mitt Romney is the best the GOP could come up with as a candidate, how much real positivity could there be?* The Obama camp certainly doesn't have the enthusiasm level that they enjoyed in 2008, and that may well cost them dearly; I'm not arbitrarily equating that to negativity however.

* Given the field of candidates left after Huntsman and Johnson dropped out, Romney may well have been the best remaining.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

To state this respectfully.....I could care less. On November 7 were going to be burdened with a Democrat who is statist, crony capitalist who increases the size and scope of government and further regulates individual liberties while finding new ways to tax them...............or we'll end up with a Republican who is statist, crony capitalist who increases the size and scope of government and further regulates individual liberties while finding new ways to tax them.

The only upside for unaligned political spectators with a Romney upset is that the rhetoric will shift. Instead of everything being POTUS's fault, whether or not there's a logical connection..........nothing will be POTUS's fault.
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net2007
post Oct 16 2012, 11:29 PM
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Dontreadonme

QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 16 2012, 06:41 PM) *
1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

I don't think so, the left has always been intolerant of other ideologies, at least in my experience........just like the right has. The left may attempt emotional camouflage while the right does the same with intellectual camouflage.....but I don't think there has been any real paradigm shift in this regard.

The left has a substantially deficient platform and ideology in many regards, which are all fair game for electoral targeting......but they are not the party that has engaged in a campaign to malign a fellow American as being....un-American or Anti-American....how much more immature and vitriolic can a party be and still be taken seriously? As I tell my GOP friends......with so many substantive issues to take the Obama Administration to the rhetorical woodshed over....why invent foundation-less tripe?

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

I'm unsure, since I don't see the same level of positivity from the Romney camp. I see a make-the-best-of-it/anybody-but-Obama mindset. If Mitt Romney is the best the GOP could come up with as a candidate, how much real positivity could there be?* The Obama camp certainly doesn't have the enthusiasm level that they enjoyed in 2008, and that may well cost them dearly; I'm not arbitrarily equating that to negativity however.

* Given the field of candidates left after Huntsman and Johnson dropped out, Romney may well have been the best remaining.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.

To state this respectfully.....I could care less. On November 7 were going to be burdened with a Democrat who is statist, crony capitalist who increases the size and scope of government and further regulates individual liberties while finding new ways to tax them...............or we'll end up with a Republican who is statist, crony capitalist who increases the size and scope of government and further regulates individual liberties while finding new ways to tax them.

The only upside for unaligned political spectators with a Romney upset is that the rhetoric will shift. Instead of everything being POTUS's fault, whether or not there's a logical connection..........nothing will be POTUS's fault.



Well said, sounds like you are very Libertarian like you're status suggest. Im not too far from that philosophy, perhaps a little more right wing though, but Im quite moderate. The way I look at it is that I want to vote for someone who has a realistic chance of getting elected. I don't like the two party system but that's the way it is.

Of the two electable candidates I think Romney stands the best chance of reducing that government interference at least in more areas than Obama. It's not politics I agree with across the board but it's the best I can hope for. I wish things were different though.

The rhetoric will shift I think like your saying. Maybe it's just me and I have a habit of attracting or noticing every angry or crazy thing the left does, and noticing the hypocrisy that comes with it. Liberals by what they hold in high regard aren't supposed to be like that but they always have that image they support to fall back onto, while conservatives have it difficult if they display ignorance or intolerance. I just feel that it isn't my affiliation that makes me notice this on the left, I really do see it more from that end. Maybe it's where I'm living, or maybe it's the fact that I debate here and engage liberals most of the time. That doesn't explain the fact that this has been obvious in recordings of liberal protest too. The atmosphere seems somewhat different on the left when something comes up, at least from what Ive noticed. Ive really felt this nonstop since I got interested in politics early in the Bush administration.

This post has been edited by net2007: Oct 16 2012, 11:56 PM
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 17 2012, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE(net2007)
Of the two electable candidates I think Romney stands the best chance of reducing that government interference at least in more areas than Obama. It's not politics I agree with across the board but it's the best I can hope for. I wish things were different though.

If you were a woman of reproductive age you might think differently about it. In the state of Michigan, for instance, the Republican legislature has made it illegal for a woman who has passed her twentieth week of pregnancy to get an abortion--no exceptions. So TFB if you are an adolescent who took a little too long to tell your mother that Daddy raped you. But it also means the high probability of a U.S. Supreme Court challenge.

If elected, Romney will likely nominate two people for Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court. If he feels in a religiously conservative mood at the time, these two will probably be the determining factor in overturning the Roe v. Wade decision.

And isn't that ultimately government interference in one of the most personal ways possible?
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post Oct 17 2012, 01:02 AM
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Paladin Elspeth

QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 16 2012, 08:19 PM) *
QUOTE(net2007)
Of the two electable candidates I think Romney stands the best chance of reducing that government interference at least in more areas than Obama. It's not politics I agree with across the board but it's the best I can hope for. I wish things were different though.

If you were a woman of reproductive age you might think differently about it. In the state of Michigan, for instance, the Republican legislature has made it illegal for a woman who has passed her twentieth week of pregnancy to get an abortion--no exceptions. So TFB if you are an adolescent who took a little too long to tell your mother that Daddy raped you. But it also means the high probability of a U.S. Supreme Court challenge.

If elected, Romney will likely nominate two people for Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court. If he feels in a religiously conservative mood at the time, these two will probably be the determining factor in overturning the Roe v. Wade decision.

And isn't that ultimately government interference in one of the most personal ways possible?


I guess it is interference especially from a woman's perspective. My girlfriend Elizabeth sounds a bit like what your describing, and although she agrees with me on Abortion right down to the details, she's very big hearted and very pro woman's rights and I understand why, my personal opinion on abortion is moderate too. I think that abortions should be allowed for any woman if their health is in danger or in a case of rape. As far as what they should be allowed to do otherwise im personally conflicted about. I don't like to see abortions happen if a woman keeps getting pregnant and just can't handle the responsibility. People need to be more responsible than that so at the very least I think their should be some guidelines that prevent abortion from becoming a convenient way out.

I don't think I agree with a post 20 week limit if it's across the board with no exceptions. However I don't think this will ever be a law that has any dominance in this county with a Republican in office.
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post Oct 17 2012, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 16 2012, 06:41 PM) *
...
The only upside for unaligned political spectators with a Romney upset is that the rhetoric will shift. Instead of everything being POTUS's fault, whether or not there's a logical connection..........nothing will be POTUS's fault.

Whose rhetoric do you envision shifting in such dramatic fashion if Romney wins?

The MSM's? You think that they would suddenly adopt a "Nothing is POTUS's fault" attitude toward negative (or less satisfactory than promised) domestic and international events/developments on Romney's watch? Really?

The Romney administration's? You think that Romney would still, as late as the fourth year of his Presidency, be blaming his predecessor for any negative (or less satisfactory than promised) domestic and/or international events/developments? Really? Can you point to any Presidents other than Obama who have done that?

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post Oct 17 2012, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 17 2012, 09:44 AM) *
The Romney administration's? You think that Romney would still, as late as the fourth year of his Presidency, be blaming his predecessor for any negative (or less satisfactory than promised) domestic and/or international events/developments? Really? Can you point to any Presidents other than Obama who have done that?


Um, yeah. It doesn't even require more than a second's worth of thought. Bush blamed Clinton for DPRK's nuclear arsenal. That was in 2006, 5+ years after he was elected. I'm sure there are more examples but that's off the top of my head.
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post Oct 17 2012, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 17 2012, 06:44 AM) *
The Romney administration's? You think that Romney would still, as late as the fourth year of his Presidency, be blaming his predecessor for any negative

Absolutely he would, even if it wasn't true. How do you think an ambition driven serial liar operates? And of course in the case of the GWB engineered financial collapse and the obstructionist 'throw America under the bus for political advantage' republican congress it is clearly obviously true and will continue to be true if Obama wins another term. If you were interested in truth rather than promoting partisan ideology that would be obvious.

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Can you point to any Presidents other than Obama who have done that?

Certainly, try 6 years. This is an obviously republican site but a fact is a fact. flowers.gif

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FDR blames Hoover for the country still being in the dumps. Remember, this is 1938! FDR was entering his sixth year and the economy had tanked again during his second term


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post Oct 17 2012, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(net2007 @ Oct 16 2012, 09:02 PM) *
Paladin Elspeth

QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 16 2012, 08:19 PM) *
QUOTE(net2007)
Of the two electable candidates I think Romney stands the best chance of reducing that government interference at least in more areas than Obama. It's not politics I agree with across the board but it's the best I can hope for. I wish things were different though.

If you were a woman of reproductive age you might think differently about it. In the state of Michigan, for instance, the Republican legislature has made it illegal for a woman who has passed her twentieth week of pregnancy to get an abortion--no exceptions. So TFB if you are an adolescent who took a little too long to tell your mother that Daddy raped you. But it also means the high probability of a U.S. Supreme Court challenge.

If elected, Romney will likely nominate two people for Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court. If he feels in a religiously conservative mood at the time, these two will probably be the determining factor in overturning the Roe v. Wade decision.

And isn't that ultimately government interference in one of the most personal ways possible?


I guess it is interference especially from a woman's perspective. My girlfriend Elizabeth sounds a bit like what your describing, and although she agrees with me on Abortion right down to the details, she's very big hearted and very pro woman's rights and I understand why, my personal opinion on abortion is moderate too. I think that abortions should be allowed for any woman if their health is in danger or in a case of rape. As far as what they should be allowed to do otherwise im personally conflicted about. I don't like to see abortions happen if a woman keeps getting pregnant and just can't handle the responsibility. People need to be more responsible than that so at the very least I think their should be some guidelines that prevent abortion from becoming a convenient way out.

I don't think I agree with a post 20 week limit if it's across the board with no exceptions. However I don't think this will ever be a law that has any dominance in this county with a Republican in office.


So if a woman shows irresponsibility by having an abortion, or multiple abortions, what makes you think that she's responsible enough to raise children? Also, what do you think this woman's attitude would be toward her children that she didn't want in the first place? Is there some sort of magic in making abortion illegal that would foster responsibility? Another very strong possibility is that the woman took all the precautions but still got pregnant, and therefore was responsible. It's just that contraception let her down, since what we have now isn't 100%.

But be that as it may, so sorry some young woman got all on your case for wearing a sticker that apparently advertised your political stance. You're making a sweeping generalization from one or maybe a handful of incidents about the left wing of politics, which is often easy to do. I guess I don't care if you want to believe most or all liberals are hotheaded maniacs itching for a fight, but I do want to point out that government is trying to get its nose into women's business.

It just doesn't seem logical that Republicans, who keep saying smaller government, would be into this sort of heavy-handed control over a specific part of the population. There also seems to be no thinking through of the problem either. What, do they want to increase the number of people, the percentage of the population, that depends upon government checks? That's exactly what's going to happen if abortion is further restricted or outlawed altogether. The population will grow; more jobs will need to be created, more housing built, more food grown and so forth.

I believe strongly that if you're against abortion, by all means, don't get one. You and I can't due to biology, eh? However, men can put pressure on women to get abortions, or not get abortions, so there's at least the possibility of having flesh in this fight.

Why do you want the government making these life-changing decisions for citizens? Why do you want to make these decisions for people you've never met and probably won't ever meet?

Whatever, this is why women get all uppity about men wanting to force them into something they don't want.

Meanwhile, Ryan is still a little prick. rolleyes.gif
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post Oct 17 2012, 04:56 PM
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If "female responsibility" is the key expression and abortion is considered an enabler of irresponsibility then the natural accompaniment to a forced birth approach would be required sterilization to prevent further irresponsibility. A woman choosing the abortion route certainly has its negatives but it sure beats the alternatives.
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post Oct 17 2012, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE(Dingo @ Oct 17 2012, 12:56 PM) *
If "female responsibility" is the key expression and abortion is considered an enabler of irresponsibility then the natural accompaniment to a forced birth approach would be required sterilization to prevent further irresponsibility. A woman choosing the abortion route certainly has its negatives but it sure beats the alternatives.

Exactly. If she can't handle the idea of becoming a mother, what kind of a responsible person would she be at parenting? And mandatory sterilization has taken place in this country in the past.

It takes two to cause a pregnancy. When the male involved is an irresponsible person (And yes, men can be exceedingly irresponsible in these cases--it isn't all on the woman!) and is a predator or an abuser, think of the scenario that develops around an unwanted pregnancy. Beating a woman until she miscarries has happened all too often. A man being proud about having many children, but who neglects or abuses them is another.

Not all women have the luxury of choosing when and with whom they have sexual intercourse.

It is so idyllic to think that all babies would be born into the world into situations where they are wanted and where the parents can and do care for them with the needed resources to raise a child these days. We have the law (the governmnent!) that "interferes" (as some think) in abuse/neglect situations, but under a Romney/Ryan plan there would be fewer people in the public sector to look out for disadvantaged children who are living in risky situations. For children with special needs, there are no guarantees that the "safety net" which is in place now to ensure that these children will get what they need to sustain and enhance their quality of life will still be there. Slash the deficit! These people expect the government to help them! They have no right to expect anything! They need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, ad nauseam. But by all means, beef up the Pentagon budget...

Are there enough caring people these days to take these children off the hands of people who do not want children or who are not capable of giving babies the care that they might want to give them?

And what about the 12-year-old whose body is still growing who is forced to carry a pregnancy that is not only a threat to her mental/emotional status, but who also stands to not be able to conceive in the future when she might WANT a child by someone who is worthy of her love and trust?

I don't think it is responsible of government, be it state or national, to dictate to females of reproductive age that they MUST carry a pregnancy to term regardless of the circumstances.

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post Oct 18 2012, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 17 2012, 01:40 PM) *
I don't think it is responsible of government, be it state or national, to dictate to females of reproductive age that they MUST carry a pregnancy to term regardless of the circumstances.

I agree.
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post Oct 18 2012, 07:27 PM
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Questions For Debate....

1. Has the left wing lost touch with some of the values they hold in high regard such as being accepting or tolerant?

Well I agree with Amlord. Both sides can be nasty but the far left will often paint anyone right of center as a monster/radical/bigot etc of one type or another

2. Is campaign negativity going to effect President Obama's chances at getting reelected?

Yes its hurting him right now. As even liberal Kirsten Powers of the Daily Beast has said, they painted Romney so negatively before the debates, that the reality that 70 Million people saw in the first debate, of a far more reasonable and competent man, has hurt the Obama story line badly.

3. Could we be looking at an upset here? I know that it's still early but I'm seeing a major shift in support right now toward Romney.
Yes. Even in debate 2 Obama could not successfully paint Romney as a liar who would tax the middle class. And Romney kept going back to the abysmal Obama record and lack of a plan for the next 4 years. Even the lead Obama had with women is narrowing. People will no longer buy promises from Obama - not after 4 years of broken promises.

4. What can president Obama do to redirect the momentum here?
Not much since he has no real substance in his plans. He will continue to attack Romney in the hope that he can win as “the devil we know”.
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