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> Abortion(murder)
turnea
post Sep 27 2002, 09:48 PM
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I have yet to hear a good argument for abortion...

1. Basic science tells us a fetus (embryo, zygote, etc) is alive.

2. Genetics (the basis of Mordern Biology) tells us a fetus is human.

3. Common senses tell us a fetus has not commited a capital crime.

So, why is abortion not illegal?
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ScreeminDeemin
post Oct 2 2002, 07:55 AM
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bcuz democrats are for special interest groups. yes the arguement is it is infanticide, and it isnt the mother that is commiting murder, it is the doctor.
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otseng
post Oct 2 2002, 01:22 PM
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Another hot debate topic. ohmy.gif

I agree with you. I have yet to hear a good argument for abortion also.
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turnea
post Oct 3 2002, 12:26 PM
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For practice sake I have heard these bad arguments:

1. Fetuses are part of the woman's body because the fetus depends on it's mother.

2. Fetuses aren't conscious so they can't be alive.

3. Horror stories of rape, incest, etc.
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Madtown
post Oct 4 2002, 02:37 AM
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Screemin says:
bcuz democrats are for special interest groups. yes the arguement is it is infanticide

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This democrat does not support abortion. However, I think that some Republicans are sort of hypocritical ... They are against abortion because it is murder and the child has a right to life . Yet a lot of Rep. are against welfare and programs that would insure that these children would get a good start in life. Many, if not most, abortions are performed on poor women who need help.
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Limpubus
post Oct 4 2002, 03:12 AM
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You may not have heard a good debate for legal abortions but I haven't heard one for it being illegal. It's part of a woman's body so why shouldn't she be able do do with it what she wants?
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ScreeminDeemin
post Oct 4 2002, 04:03 AM
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I meant all political democrats on national level.

It is not part of the womens body, it is just connected.

One good arguement is in the 'Declaration of Independence'. It is a human, and all humans are entitled to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. And it cannot be comprised to do so before birth in anyway, it is still a person and all have 'certain unalienable rights'.
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Jaime
post Oct 4 2002, 04:17 AM
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Is a fetus a human in the first few months? If the fetus were removed the from the woman it would not survive. It is not viable on its in own in the first trimester, so then I would see a fetus as being part of the woman.

Once you get past that first trimester, however, the issue changes. In rare instances, fetuses have lived outside the womb, finishing their development with many months spent in NICU. So it is obviously human life at that point.

Just thought I'd add those thoughts to the fire.

As far as my opinion goes, I see it like this: I would never take risks that would put myself in a situtation where I would need an abortion. However, we can not foresee everything. God forbid I were raped and to become pregnant, why should it be illegal for me to destroy it? Why should I be forced to carry such trauma?
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Madtown
post Oct 4 2002, 04:33 AM
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I'm surprised at you Limpubus...you wouldn't spank a child, but you would kill a baby? So what if it's
part of a womans body?
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ScreeminDeemin
post Oct 4 2002, 05:29 AM
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Good point, madtown! Well if you want to get technical, go and look what turnea said up there. But like I said it isnt about banning it, it is about letting the state vote whether they want it or not. I believe it shouldnt even go that far, it should be available from the government but very restricted. So if in the unlikely event that you are raped and impregnated, it could be done. Or if you got accidently pregnant once, say a condom broke or something ... I would think one abortion limit, you had one pregnancy as a scare. Now dont make the same mistake twice, and if she does ... her fault. Deal with it like everyone did before abortions were available.
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Mega Gigan
post Oct 4 2002, 11:13 AM
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All right, it seems a lot of you are against abortion (I am iffy about it) but I do see a good reason why abortion should be here. If a woman is poor and she can hardly afford anything would you want a child to live under those conditions? I mean look at all the commercials we have today about sending money to other countries for poor, hungry children. You want a child to live like that? I think abortion should only be performed under extreme cases. Not because they just "don't want to have a child." I understand I might get bombarded by this post. Anyone want to back me up on this?
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otseng
post Oct 4 2002, 01:39 PM
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Here's the bottom line on abortion... when is the fetus considered to be a human?

Conception? First trimester? After the umbilical cord is cut?

The answer to this question is the crux. It's not about woman's choice on what to do with her own body.

As for viability for determining if something is human, it's not a valid test. Heck, a lot of 17 years old can't make it in the real world without their daddy and mommy.
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Jaime
post Oct 4 2002, 02:00 PM
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Does a fetus' human status really determine whether we can kill it or not?

I absolutely think it does. If it is viable life then it should not be killed (on the presumtion that the life is innocent and we should not kill innocents). If it is not, then it is no more than "removing a growth." I know that the coldness/clinical attitude I have will *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** many of you off, but it's true. If it can't survive outside of the womb on it's own, it's not officially a human.

As far as it being "a woman's choice." That is a whole new can of worms. This could be best determined by the circumstance. There have been instances where a woman had an abortion simply because she did not want the baby, despite the father stepping up and offering to take full responsibilty once it is born. That seems wrong. But why should we stop a crack using prostitute from abortion when she doesn't know the father and has likely poisoned the fetus anyway?

Abortion is a nasty business but it should remain legal.
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otseng
post Oct 4 2002, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE(Jaime @ Oct 4 2002, 10:00 AM)
As far as it being "a woman's choice."  That is a whole new can of worms.  

The worms have gotten out! ohmy.gif

First off, I'm all for woman's right to choose. They can do anything they want. But, they have to also pay the consequences of their actions. (Same for men also)

If they choose to use crack, they'll have to suffer for it. If they choose to party hardy on Fridays and pick up the hunks for some hanky panky, then they were the ones to choose to engage in sex. And one minor potential consequence of sex is being pregnant. They had the choice in engaging in sex, so you have consequences for that.

Now, as for the legality of abortion, it all depends again on how you answer the question, "when does life begin?" And killing a human life should be illegal on all counts, even when it's done through abortion. So, the main question is, "when is the baby a human". Again, choice has nothing to do with it.
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turnea
post Oct 4 2002, 09:11 PM
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From Biology's standpoint, life begins at conception
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Jaime
post Oct 4 2002, 09:25 PM
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Turnea- I don't understand your last post. Please explain how "biology" has set a standard that life begins at conception.
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turnea
post Oct 4 2002, 09:33 PM
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In science there are a set of characteristic which all life and only life has.
1.Metabolism (converting energy to a usable form)
2. Responding to stimuli.
3. Cellular Structure.
4. Grow at some point in the organism's development.
By these standards life begins at conception.
Furthermore through genetics we know the embryo is it's own seperate organism.
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Jaime
post Oct 4 2002, 09:45 PM
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Thank you turnea. I agree with your definitions. Which is why, in practice, I would not have an abortion unless raped. And even in that instance, I could only do it in the first trimester. I know it is appalling to some that my decision is weighed by "viable" life rather than your definition of life. But I can't get past the fact that it would be as equally appalling to carry a rapist's child.
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turnea
post Oct 4 2002, 09:48 PM
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Perhaps it's emotionally disturbing, but in the rational sense, killing that rapist's child is still murder.
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Jaime
post Oct 4 2002, 09:52 PM
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I don't see it as murder. Murder needs to be done to a human. While the groups of cells that are working to become human in the first trimester are life, they are not yet fully human. Therefore, it is not murder. I believe it becomes murder after the first trimester. As our medical technology gets better, this definition will likely change and I will be forced to deal with that issue.
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