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> Teens and part-time work, curious question
Do you see as many young adults working today as you did 10 years ago?
You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post May 1 2006, 03:33 PM
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Authormusician made this interesting point on another thread:
QUOTE
Hey, in younger years I would have loved a landscaping job, construction, even janitor. As it was, I did road crew work, highway shoulder grass cutting, foundry work, even sewer stinky service. No job was beneath me. We still have young Americans, do we not? They need and want the work.


When I was a teen and college student, it was very common to see other teens and young adults working as cashiers, janitors, lawn service, fast food, ect. I did this myself, and I'd say nearly everyone I worked with was roughly in my age group (16-22).

I have noticed in the past ten years or so that there are very few teenagers or young adults working in these places. This was the case in Las Vegas, and here in Arlington, Virginia. This is true of babysitting jobs also. I pay my sitters very well, and I've found that teens just don't seem to be interested these days.

I made this observation to a friend recently, and he agreed. But, he believes that the disparity isn't due to fewer teens working today, but the fact that we are now living in better neighborhoods then we grew up in. As the "have not" crowd, we worked, but now we are living closer to the "haves", whose children have other choices. I should add that neither of us live in a "posh" exclusive area...basically middle class, though I did grow up in a lower middle class area.

Hence, my reason for the poll. I'm curious about other observations. What do you think?

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: May 1 2006, 03:38 PM
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Amlord
post May 1 2006, 03:49 PM
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I see fewer teens and more older folks working today than when I was growing up.

Like Mrs. P, I now live in a better neighborhood than I grew up in, but even in the old neighborhood (where my parents still live) it seems to hold: kids don't seem to be working as much as they once did.

I saw an article recently stating that the local paper boy is a thing of the past. Now, most papers are delivered by adults rather than kids. People pay by mailing a check rather than the local paper boy coming around to collect subscription fees.

When I was in high school, I worked to pay for my lunch at school. My parents wanted me to brown bag it, but I thought that was embarassing. (I went to a Catholic school where few people brought their lunches and coming from an outside neighborhood, I didn't want to encourage any stereotypes. In other words, I worked so that I could fit in.

I have a theory that relates to this and the way parents are raising their kids:

Parents these days want to provide for their kids. Of course this has always been the case, but in the past parents focused on preparation for the future rather than giving kids material things. Now, many kids just have to ask (or whine and beg) to get the newest Playstation game or Ipod or whatever. This isn't just the case in upper middle class homes, it seems to be the case everywhere. Parents are much more willing today, in all social layers, to give things to their kids.

This isn't a knock on parents that see giving these things to kids as a benefit. I think for the most part parents do want the best for their kids. However, there is a destructive aspect to simply giving someone something instead of making them earn it. It creates the "you owe me" mindset. I think this trend started with Baby Boomer parents and has intensified with today's Gen Xer parents.
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RedCedar
post May 1 2006, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE(Amlord @ May 1 2006, 10:49 AM)
I see fewer teens and more older folks working today than when I was growing up.


This is what I'm seeing. And also I'm seeing more Mexicans as well.

When I was growing up, I worked landscaping. Those jobs are all Mexicans now.

The problem in my area, people are losing good jobs. And these people are not phDs or MDs. So they have to take the next best thing, retail jobs, McDonalds jobs, etc.

I don't know about the character of kids today, but I'm guessing they have fewer opportunities than they used to. Jobs once deemed as "jobs for kids" are now being done by people who can't get a manufacturing job or something else that is "better".

This is why I strongly disagree with people that argue we need a low min wage because kids are doing these jobs. The fact is, there really are no bad jobs any more. In a global economy where someone, somewhere, will do the jobs for 1/5th or less of what you will, every job is sacred. We should increase the min wage.


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SuzySteamboat
post May 1 2006, 07:48 PM
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I agree that all the previous posters have listed very valid reasons on why there are fewer teenaged workers today, but have failed to mention a biggie: no time. I have a 16-year-old brother who would love to get a job, so he can buy his own snacks, games, etc. - however, he is also in band. A band that has 3-hour after-school practices at least 3 days a week for about 9 months out of the year. During the summer - the expected "respite" - the practices are about 8 hours. And it's not like he's involved in several other extra-curricular activities - band is the only one. I don't know how his classmates with other extra-curriculars, on top of A.P. classes, still have time to eat, let alone work.
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Amlord
post May 1 2006, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ May 1 2006, 03:48 PM)
I agree that all the previous posters have listed very valid reasons on why there are fewer teenaged workers today, but have failed to mention a biggie:  no time.  I have a 16-year-old brother who would love to get a job, so he can buy his own snacks, games, etc. - however, he is also in band.  A band that has 3-hour after-school practices at least 3 days a week for about 9 months out of the year.  During the summer - the expected "respite" - the practices are about 8 hours.  And it's not like he's involved in several other extra-curricular activities - band is the only one.  I don't know how his classmates with other extra-curriculars, on top of A.P. classes, still have time to eat, let alone work.
*



A very good point.

Many teenagers have additional responsibilities that they have. These are often emphasized if "you want to get into college".

[For the record, I got into college with a very short "extra-cirricullars" list. I had a job]

It does boil down to priorities and I don't think today's youth has the work ethic that past generations have had. Part of this is the fact that life in America is so easy these days. Kids are being handed the world but not the work ethic they may need to take care of it.

It's good to see you around SuzySteamboat. flowers.gif
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Wertz
post May 1 2006, 09:19 PM
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Do you see as many young adults working today as you did 10 years ago?

I do - though, again, I'm speaking entirely from personal observation (were this not Casual Conversation, I'd be looking into labor stats mrsparkle.gif ). My family, for example, operates a tourist attraction in central Pennsylvania. When I was a teenager, I worked there as a guide - among half a dozen other teenagers. Last year, 90% of the guides were still teenagers. The attraction is busiest on weekends and during vacation and holiday periods - coincidentally the same times most teens are available - and with flexible hours and slightly-better-than-minimum wage, a lot of young people find the work attractive.

Having been out of the states for two decades, I would probably have noticed if there had been a radical change in observable labor demographics. I haven't. Here in central Florida (in my neighborhood, at least), yard work and babysitting are still done by teens. Indeed, there are a lot of teenagers working in the service industry as well: convenience stores, hotels, and the fast food industry are full of young adults. The only difference now is that those used to be entry-level jobs instead of careers. This could be a factor in what some are observing. Ten, twenty years ago, more service jobs may have been filled by teens because adults were working in higher paid positions. Now, many adults have no choice - there are simply no better jobs available and they're pushing the younger crowd out of the market.

Similarly, it's possible that fewer people can afford to hire someone else to cut their grass and do it themselves (we do) - or married couples go out less often due to financial constraints, requiring fewer babysitters. If there's not enough reliable work, young people may be looking elsewhere. It's possible that in more affluent neighborhoods, fewer kids may be delivering papers or mowing lawns and people are more dependent on illegal adult labor, but I tend not to venture into such places (or their gates keep me out whistling.gif ).

One thing we may not be taking into account, though, is the black economy. I see a lot of young people selling drugs or stolen goods - or even their own bodies. The black market in sex and drugs is huge in this country - huge. And a substantial number of people working in those industries are young adults.


This post has been edited by Wertz: May 1 2006, 09:22 PM
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RedCedar
post May 2 2006, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE(Amlord @ May 1 2006, 03:11 PM)
It does boil down to priorities and I don't think today's youth has the work ethic that past generations have had.  Part of this is the fact that life in America is so easy these days.  Kids are being handed the world but not the work ethic they may need to take care of it.


Huh? The world handed to them? You mean like the baby boomers who went to college on the cheap and were able to get jobs that supported a middle class family while the mom stayed home? Or the baby boomer who went to work for GM or Ford, or some other manufacturing company and made better than middle income salaries?

I think our kids are toast. Heck, I'm toast. Our kids may have no work ethic...because there are no jobs for them!!

Kids have to be, like mentioned above, in all sorts of extra activities to get into college, they have to get straight As, they have to kill themselves just to get into a decent college.

I really pity the future because I am nauseated at the present. You're going to have to graduate with a PhD just to get a middle class job in the next generations. And if you don't even go to college, you'll be a full-time fry-boy at McDonalds.

But let's not forget that college is totally outrageously expensive either.

The prior generations had it EASY. Stop giving me this "work ethic" crap. All my fat and lazy neighbors who were born in the 40s-50s had boats and motorcycles and nice big homes, yet had no college degrees. That's work ethic?

I love when generations rip on other generations, especially future generations. Maybe the WW2 generation had some work ethic, but after that I doubt you could argue any generation after that is any better than today.

And these kids are going to have to work 100 times more just to get where their parents are.
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Syfir
post May 3 2006, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE(RedCedar @ May 1 2006, 07:19 PM)
The prior generations had it EASY. Stop giving me this "work ethic" crap. All my fat and lazy neighbors who were born in the 40s-50s had boats and motorcycles and nice big homes, yet had no college degrees.  That's work ethic?

I love when generations rip on other generations, especially future generations. Maybe the WW2 generation had some work ethic, but after that I doubt you could argue any generation after that is any better than today.

And these kids are going to have to work 100 times more just to get where their parents are.


I don't think any generation has had it easy, we just have different challenges. That being said, I understand your point.

In some ways the current upcoming generation has to have a better work ethic to get anywhere.

I graduated in the late 80's and pretty much drifted through college, found a fairly good job and am pretty satisfied with my career. However in order for today's graduates to get into a so called "good" college they pretty much need to have taken the AP equivalent of a year of college before they graduate high school. I know that I came from a small school (9 in my graduating class). My GPA (3.79) was good enough for 2nd in my class. All of my siblings were first in their respective classes (except the twins for obvious reason and they were 1-2). However none of them (including those with a 4.0) would have been in the top 50 in some schools, even with their 4.0! I have heard of high schools with dozens upon dozens of valedictorians who had a 4.0+ because they got "bonus points" for taking advanced classes or participating in extra curricular activities.

My mother was pretty strict about maintaining a school/family balance. She had no problems holding us out of after school activities if she thought we needed a family night. That is considered detrimental now days by many people.

To be honest I thought I was pretty hot stuff going to college because even though I didn't have a 4.0 on graduating my last two years were 4.0's. Then I got to college and found people who had been specializing in their chosen major since 9th grade or earlier. Now days you see ads for "clubs" in any line of education. Kids are specializing earlier and earlier so they can have a leg up when they get to college.

It's getting so that you can't get a "good" college to look at you for a major unless you can prove that you have a solid backing in the major. It's almost like you have had to take the courses the colleges used to teach for the whole course of study before you get there.

Sheesh. Who has time for a part time job any more? It has become so that unless it is a necessity a job while growing up is actually detrimental to your future career.

Of course then you get out of college and find out that your diploma is all your future boss wants. He/she couldn't care less what you studied as long as you have that piece of paper. (we had a local media mogul come to our mass comm class and tell us flat out that he preferred to hire people who had a degree in something other than mass comm. "I can train them in that, I just want them to have a wide exposure to other things besides media." This 2 semesters from graduation. Sheesh) hmmm.gif

Any way . . . .
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limapoint
post May 10 2006, 02:34 AM
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Well, I thought as a current (or very recent teenager) I would throw my two cents in. This is a fascinating sociological debate about teens and work. I currently am studying history at McGill University in Montreal, but I grew up in Park Ridge, a suburb of Chicago.

I remember when it was time for me to get my first part-time job (summer after senior year, or 2004). The job I found was a part-time ticket agent for Air France at O'Hare Airport in Chicago. I remember how cool it was to show up to work in my snazzy Air France Uniform, make the boarding announcements in English and French, etc. I got this job by showing up to the ticket counter and proclaiming "I speak French, can I have a job?" (I had been a foreign exchange student in Belgium my junior year of high school. That worked out great, and along came last summer as I faithfully returned to the US anxious for another summer at the Airport. Well, Air France no longer needed me. But did I go out and look for a job at a café, or a video store, or a burger joint? No. The truth is, I felt these jobs were below me. It is unfortunate but true, and I could remember all of my friends were the same way, looking for internships or jobs at their parent's /parents of friends businesses, etc. We didn't want the crappy boring jobs.

That summer I did find more work at the airport for Lufthansa, but this summer it looks again as if they won't take me. I'm planning on looking for work as a landscaper or something else manual labour wise. But its true that teens these days are out there looking for "classy" or "cool" jobs and that flipping burgers at McDonald's just isn't cutting it in suburbia any more. Sucks but its the truth.
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aevans176
post May 10 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE(RedCedar @ May 1 2006, 07:19 PM)
I think our kids are toast. Heck, I'm toast. Our kids may have no work ethic...because there are no jobs for them!!


Ummm.... HUH??

No Jobs for them??

That's absurd. The problem is that youth seem to not have the same fire in their bellies. The need for independence seemingly has missed the Reality TV/Hip Hop generation.

It's not that WalMart, Kroger, and McDonald's don't want young kids in Dallas TX or in my home town of Shreveport, LA. It's mostly that kids don't want to work for min wage, don't want to get dirty and sweaty, and have an aversion to responsibility. Read and books about the differences in Generation X vs Generation Y... a search on the net yielded a dozen pertinent examples. Kids today expect more for less. It's the McDonald's mentality to wages, I drive through college, order a job at the window, and pull up to a well paid job. Absurd.

I'll say that I live in a neighborhood better than where my parents lived, but did grow up in a middle-classed neighborhood. There are a FEW kids that come to ask if I want my lawn mowed, etc... but it's not like when we were kids and had to fight the neighbor boys and/or under cut their prices to get the lawn-raking gigs. When we were kids, we had color tv's, decent clothing, and a bike in the garage, but it was the mission of our parents to teach us the value of work ethic. My older brother, even though he isn't a college grad, is a Unionized brick mason and runs job sites and does well... and I believe that at the ripe old age of 27, having two paid for cars, a house in the suburbs, and some change left over every month that we've done ok. Why??? Because we learned at a VERY early age where a little elbow grease might get you.

The exception seems to be small town America, where maybe grass roots values haven't slipped down the drain. Shreveport, for instance, still has kids working in grocery stores and as wait staff in restaurants. That's an odd occurrence here in Dallas, even in the suburbs. You NEVER see them at fast food places or mowing lawns. Are illegal immigrants swamping the walmarts as cashiers??? No... of course not, but I think there is a certain percentage of American youth that have been raised to believe that it's beneath them. I do see a few college aged kids doing some waiter/waitressing, and the occasional bar tender, but can't say that when I go to get the oil changed in my truck that there are HS kids in the bay (something that I did along w/ friends...).

What can change this? It's not that there are Mexicans flooding the Kroger in Des Moines, IA. I guarantee it. It starts at home. It's an understanding of personal accountability and responsibility that parents need to give their children. This is America, and even if you have to work for $6/hr, it's an honest dollar... and how many bills do High School Kids have? My little sister (she's 20) is a great example. She's in college and works a part time job at a law office, but decided that she wanted a newer vehicle. What was her first idea? MOM, DAD!!! That didn't work, so she found a great paying 2nd job for the summer, and will actually drop the law office job in the fall. That go-get 'em mentality will stick with her when she has to venture into the "real world" where the electricity and rent payments don't have mom/dad on the checks.

No jobs? No way... show me a community where there are "no jobs" for kids, and I'll call it an anomoly or show your kids where to go apply.

****SIDE NOTE-- if your kids refuse to take the rings out of their noses, cut their hair, speak English that someone can understand, or treat someone with respect....don't expect a company to hire them****

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RedCedar
post May 10 2006, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 10 2006, 09:09 AM)
Ummm.... HUH??

No Jobs for them??

That's absurd.


I guess I just need to post proof then? whistling.gif

QUOTE
Teens Struggle to Get Foot in Door
By Nicholas Riccardi
LA Times May 31, 2005

Teen unemployment is rising as young job seekers face heightened competition from older workers and immigrants who are taking entry-level positions

Teenagers also are disadvantaged by a tighter job market in which employers are less willing to hire workers with little or no job experience. Some experts fear that these and other shifts in the job market could persist and hurt future prospects for many youths.


rolleyes.gif

Not really so absurd.


QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 10 2006, 09:09 AM)
The problem is that youth seem to not have the same fire in their bellies. The need for independence seemingly has missed the Reality TV/Hip Hop generation.


Yeah, I'm sure this is a popular myth to use. But again, I give you proof positive that generations before me had more cheeseburgers in their bellies than fire. Opportunities were much better than they are today. You could work in a factory for $50K when cars were $5K, have no education and get union holidays.

Where are those jobs now? Where are kids with no education going to get above-poverty wages?


QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 10 2006, 09:09 AM)
It's not that WalMart, Kroger, and McDonald's don't want young kids in Dallas TX or in my home town of Shreveport, LA. It's mostly that kids don't want to work for min wage, don't want to get dirty and sweaty, and have an aversion to responsibility. Read and books about the differences in Generation X vs Generation Y... a search on the net yielded a dozen pertinent examples. Kids today expect more for less. It's the McDonald's mentality to wages, I drive through college, order a job at the window, and pull up to a well paid job. Absurd.


Well if your hometown is affluent, then I'm guessing a parent would rather see his/her child preparing for their SATs or doing something to help for their future, and float them the $200 a week they'd be making for 40 hours of fry-cooking.

In fact, in many of the affluent areas around me, adults are working at McDonalds/Krogers/etc. and many are immigrants. Only in the poorer neighborhoods do you see more kids working there.

And what's absurd about dishing out $40K-50K, putting your life on hold while you devote yourself to education....then expecting to be COMPENSATED for your trouble? That's absurd?

No, absurd is when you are in serious debt because education is outrageously expensive and finding that you may as well have just gone straight to Burger King from the get-go.

QUOTE
Why??? Because we learned at a VERY early age where a little elbow grease might get you.


Well I understand why you're a conservative. Many conservatives assume that everyone has equal opportunities and so only "lazy people" or people who don't use a little elbow grease are those that don't benefit from our society.

Sorry to say, you're wrong. Opportunities today are very different that those of previous generations. Even from 10 years ago.


QUOTE
What can change this? It's not that there are Mexicans flooding the Kroger in Des Moines, IA. I guarantee it.


Indeed, there are Mexicans illegals in Iowa. And legal Mexicans as well. Does your guarantee have any money behind it? wink.gif
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aevans176
post May 10 2006, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE(RedCedar @ May 10 2006, 08:59 AM)
Well I understand why you're a conservative. Many conservatives assume that everyone has equal opportunities and so only "lazy people" or people who don't use a little elbow grease are those that don't benefit from our society.

Sorry to say, you're wrong. Opportunities today are very different that those of previous generations. Even from 10 years ago.

....
Indeed, there are Mexicans illegals in Iowa. And legal Mexicans as well. Does your guarantee have any money behind it?  wink.gif
*



While I applaud your passion, I don't see any meat and potatoes to your arguments.

I only posted a portion of your argument, as I believe that I can put it into digestible reading for everyone involved.

Let's talk about real statistics, not some quote from the LA Times.

If there are 298,444,215 (according to the CIA fact book) people in the US, of which 10-12 Million (or so) are illegal immigrants, that makes a whopping 4% of the total population illegal immigrants. Where do most of those immigrants live??? Well, it's tough to say, but a large number of the arrests are in the border states... seen here.

What that says is that the other 96% of America is still comprised of English Speaking/Legal citizens.

Ok, so how does that actually turn into working "kids" in the US??? Well, let's use another BLS statistic found here. This shows that a large number of kids ARE actually working. I guess someone lives in an area not over run by Mexicans... wacko.gif

My political affilliation has little bearing on the discussion, but I do believe that people have opportunities in the US. It's really hard to argue with facts, so let's talk about Walmart and their hiring of the elderly (heck, if they're hiring old people they'll hire our kids...)
According to this site, Walmart's work force is comprised of over 18% people that are 55+ yrs old. Can a 65 year old man push as many carts? Probably not.

The bottom line is that statistics argue against your points. The reality IS that Unionization of large industry (i.e. auto manufacturing) in the US has had a detrimental affect on profitability and competitiveness in the US market. If someone pressed a button or pushed a broom for $50K in the past, they really probably should've made 1/2 that. Inflated and artificial wage compensation is a huge problem that marxism/socialism/communism had in the communist block countries. It won't work in a predominantly capitalist market where the competition doesn't employ the same tactics. Oh yeah... that's completely off topic, of course unless you're making the point that HS kids should be paid $25/hr to push a broom.

The reality is that Walmart is hiring immigrants because our children aren't going to apply for jobs paying the same. The wage point of Kroger and Walmart (or McDonalds for that matter) hasn't essentially changed. However, I'd venture to state that maybe 10+ years ago, it was probably more common place for children to be seen at the grocery store or the Burger King, we have to think reasonably why....

I believe that there are a handful of factors. One being, and most importantly, that middle class children are less likely to work jobs of this nature. You might find them at the gap, and the kids that couldn't find the job at the mall just don't work. You'd be hard pressed to find a middle-classed kid bussing tables in the south anymore... mostly because it's a dirty job that doesn't pay well.

Secondly, I believe that employers find more reliability in adult employees, and as long as they can get the job done with an immigrant, they'll employ in that fashion. That doesn't figure in summer help, seasonal employment (christmas), etc. I would venture to make a guess that the BLS doesn't keep stats of that nature.

Believing that people must often do things that they don't want to in order to get where they'd like to be isn't a conservative notion, but hard work and dedication are AMERICAN ideas.

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RedCedar
post May 10 2006, 06:17 PM
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[quote=aevans176,May 10 2006, 10:44 AM]
Let's talk about real statistics, not some quote from the LA Times.
[/quote]


If you want, I can post another dozen sources. Please post a source that says the job market is GOOD for teens and not a list of disconnect facts.


[quote=aevans176,May 10 2006, 10:44 AM]
of which 10-12 Million (or so) are illegal immigrants
[/quote]


Is this in the CIA book? Do you have a reliable source for this EXACT number?

Check this source out, it says 28 million...plus.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/i...en_numbers.html

So that's closer to 10% of the population. And if they are here mostly to work then that's a significant number of people.

Regardless of illegals, the LA Times says "IMMIGRANTS", not just illegals. You see, even when a legal immigrant comes here he brings the rest of his family in due time. So even if he's a computer programmer, he has a wife or a brother or someone who has no education or minimal education and must work a min wage job.

So we're not just talking MExicans. I've seen plenty of Indians at the Taco Bell as well.


[quote]It's really hard to argue with facts.[/quote]

Which facts are those?

[quote]so let's talk about Walmart and their hiring of the elderly (heck, if they're hiring old people they'll hire our kids...)
According to this site, Walmart's work force is comprised of over 18% people that are 55+ yrs old. Can a 65 year old man push as many carts? Probably not. [/quote]


No, but a senior doesn't need medical coverage do they? And they're typically a tad bit more experienced/brighter than a teenager.

Should I bring up all of the ILLEGAL workers that WalMart has decided to use instead of teenagers? Yes, an illegal worker actually workers cheaper than an old person, I'll give you that.... blush.gif

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/r...t-arrests_x.htm

[quote]The bottom line is that statistics argue against your points. [/quote]

The bottom line is that your facts are flimsy and anecdotal.

You bring up Des Moines, well how about Detroit, Mich. You can't get further from Mexico than Detroit. I worked landscaping growing up, now all those jobs are done by Mexicans.....all of them. When I was unemployed I saw an ad in the paper for a CVS warehouse manager....it required you to speak spanish. Hmmmm, you mean the warehouse is filled with Mexicans?

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that low wage jobs once done by teenagers are being picked up not only by seniors and immigrants, they're being done by the factory worker who no longer makes $25/hr. Or the computer programmer who can't get a job because they've gone to India. Or the one-time-telephone-call-center worker..etc. etc.

Kids today are competing with adults for jobs.

[quote]The realityIS that Unionization of large industry (i.e. auto manufacturing) in the US has had a detrimental affect on profitability and competitiveness in the US market. If someone pressed a button or pushed a broom for $50K in the past, they really probably should've made 1/2 that. Inflated and artificial wage compensation is a huge problem that marxism/socialism/communism had in the communist block countries. It won't work in a predominantly capitalist market where the competition doesn't employ the same tactics. Oh yeah... that's completely off topic, of course unless you're making the point that HS kids should be paid $25/hr to push a broom. [quote]

No, you're making my point for me. Kids today won't make that easy money. Hence, they have it harder. Thanks for helping out! wink.gif

[quote]Believing that people must often do things that they don't want to in order to get where they'd like to be isn't a [b]conservative notion, but hard work and dedication are [color=blue]AMERICAN ideas. [color=blue]
[/quote][/B]

That's not what I said. I said you assume that people who don't achieve the same thing as someone else is because they're lazy. That's a common trait among certain factions of conservatives. That's why they oppose welfare, because they assume others have the same resources as they do. Because they assume that no one has any hardships worse than their own. That if "I have medical insurance" why should I care about anyone else, because they can do what I did.....ignoring the fact that not everyone grew up with a mom and dad that were middle class, and cared for them.

That is indeed not necessarily an American viewpoint.

This post has been edited by RedCedar: May 10 2006, 06:25 PM
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