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> Is The Tea Party a Democratic Party conspiracy?, A Michigan Appeals Court Decision
Curmudgeon
post Sep 2 2010, 02:55 PM
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Occasionally, a news story just catches me by surprise. The following was excerpted from yesterday's newspaper:
QUOTE
Republicans and tea party activists say "The Tea Party," which has nominated nearly two dozen candidates, is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates. "The Tea Party" is being investigated following allegations that some of its potential candidates may have been nominated through fraud. link
In Michigan, The Tea Party won't be allowed on the ballot due to an appeals court ruling that the word "the" was not in 24-point bold face type on the petitions as required by law.

The surprising part of the story to me though was the allegation that The Tea Party is a Democratic Party plot to divide Republican voters. Admittedly, we have been watching MSNBC, where The Tea Party has been painted as a plot by Fox News to generate a grass roots revolution.

Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?

In the newspaper story, it stated: "Republicans and tea party activists say 'The Tea Party,' <snip> is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates." If this had been a jury trial, would that allegation seem credible to you as a juror?


This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: Sep 2 2010, 02:56 PM
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Raptavio
post Sep 2 2010, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ Sep 2 2010, 09:55 AM) *
Occasionally, a news story just catches me by surprise. The following was excerpted from yesterday's newspaper:
QUOTE
Republicans and tea party activists say "The Tea Party," which has nominated nearly two dozen candidates, is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates. "The Tea Party" is being investigated following allegations that some of its potential candidates may have been nominated through fraud. link
In Michigan, The Tea Party won't be allowed on the ballot due to an appeals court ruling that the word "the" was not in 24-point bold face type on the petitions as required by law.

The surprising part of the story to me though was the allegation that The Tea Party is a Democratic Party plot to divide Republican voters. Admittedly, we have been watching MSNBC, where The Tea Party has been painted as a plot by Fox News to generate a grass roots revolution.

Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?

In the newspaper story, it stated: "Republicans and tea party activists say 'The Tea Party,' <snip> is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates." If this had been a jury trial, would that allegation seem credible to you as a juror?



As a note, the charges are true. The Tea Party in Michigan is a Democratic-friendly effort to split the Republican vote. I consider that dirty pool, really.
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scubatim
post Sep 2 2010, 09:04 PM
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Between this, which it is true that it was a Democratic ploy, and the crashtheteaparty debacle, one would think that the Democrats are getting desperate. It is sad, really. I know there are very smart people in both parties, but this type of child's play makes our nation look childish and embarrassing to the rest of the world.

On a lighter side, this also makes the big two show how ugly and desperate they really are!
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Raptavio
post Sep 2 2010, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:04 PM) *
Between this, which it is true that it was a Democratic ploy, and the crashtheteaparty debacle, one would think that the Democrats are getting desperate. It is sad, really. I know there are very smart people in both parties, but this type of child's play makes our nation look childish and embarrassing to the rest of the world.

On a lighter side, this also makes the big two show how ugly and desperate they really are!


It's not desperation at all; rather it's very standard amoral politics.

The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats, turning many races that were sure R wins into tossups or even Democratic-leaning races (like Harry Reid, a sure loser in Nevada, is now on track to win reelection in November). Desperation is hardly an issue, even in a year where Dems stand to lose seats and have a good chance of losing the House altogether. That's not the issue.

The issue is trying to split the vote of your opposition -- thus, Republicans pushing to make sure Ralph Nader was on the ballot in 2000 and 2004, or running obvious Republicans to primary incumbent Democrats (like Dan Freilich trying to unseat Leahy in Vermont this year, now running as an Independent). It's not illegal, of course, but it seems antidemocratic to me.
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scubatim
post Sep 2 2010, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 2 2010, 04:11 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:04 PM) *
Between this, which it is true that it was a Democratic ploy, and the crashtheteaparty debacle, one would think that the Democrats are getting desperate. It is sad, really. I know there are very smart people in both parties, but this type of child's play makes our nation look childish and embarrassing to the rest of the world.

On a lighter side, this also makes the big two show how ugly and desperate they really are!


It's not desperation at all; rather it's very standard amoral politics.

The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats, turning many races that were sure R wins into tossups or even Democratic-leaning races (like Harry Reid, a sure loser in Nevada, is now on track to win reelection in November). Desperation is hardly an issue, even in a year where Dems stand to lose seats and have a good chance of losing the House altogether. That's not the issue.

The issue is trying to split the vote of your opposition -- thus, Republicans pushing to make sure Ralph Nader was on the ballot in 2000 and 2004, or running obvious Republicans to primary incumbent Democrats (like Dan Freilich trying to unseat Leahy in Vermont this year, now running as an Independent). It's not illegal, of course, but it seems antidemocratic to me.

First, I wouldn't say 1.3% is really on track, especially since the true campaign season starts this weekend and we don't know what tricks either side has up their sleeves.

I also don't think The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats. Many candidates that were Tea Party backed are doing quite well. However, how one is doing today means diddly, check back November 3rd.

I still think the tactics that I addressed show desperation. Don't kid yourself though, the desperation is only on the Democrats this year because they are in power. Check back in four years during the next mid-term to see how desperate the Republicans will be if they gain power during these mid-terms.

Sorry, forgot to add a link for my 1.3%: link

This post has been edited by scubatim: Sep 2 2010, 09:39 PM
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Raptavio
post Sep 3 2010, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:36 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 2 2010, 04:11 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:04 PM) *
Between this, which it is true that it was a Democratic ploy, and the crashtheteaparty debacle, one would think that the Democrats are getting desperate. It is sad, really. I know there are very smart people in both parties, but this type of child's play makes our nation look childish and embarrassing to the rest of the world.

On a lighter side, this also makes the big two show how ugly and desperate they really are!


It's not desperation at all; rather it's very standard amoral politics.

The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats, turning many races that were sure R wins into tossups or even Democratic-leaning races (like Harry Reid, a sure loser in Nevada, is now on track to win reelection in November). Desperation is hardly an issue, even in a year where Dems stand to lose seats and have a good chance of losing the House altogether. That's not the issue.

The issue is trying to split the vote of your opposition -- thus, Republicans pushing to make sure Ralph Nader was on the ballot in 2000 and 2004, or running obvious Republicans to primary incumbent Democrats (like Dan Freilich trying to unseat Leahy in Vermont this year, now running as an Independent). It's not illegal, of course, but it seems antidemocratic to me.

First, I wouldn't say 1.3% is really on track, especially since the true campaign season starts this weekend and we don't know what tricks either side has up their sleeves.

I also don't think The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats. Many candidates that were Tea Party backed are doing quite well. However, how one is doing today means diddly, check back November 3rd.

I still think the tactics that I addressed show desperation. Don't kid yourself though, the desperation is only on the Democrats this year because they are in power. Check back in four years during the next mid-term to see how desperate the Republicans will be if they gain power during these mid-terms.

Sorry, forgot to add a link for my 1.3%: link


First, Rasmussen's in-house R leaning removed, Reid's doing better, and he's been consistently gaining. Regardless....

What you "think" about desperation is not relevant. Your gut feelings are not a bellwether of others' motivations. And the fact is that these sorts of legal shenanigans are very common and are not by their nature examples of desperation by either side - just tactics. Whether desperation is ever a motive is a matter solely for speculation.
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scubatim
post Sep 3 2010, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 09:02 AM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:36 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 2 2010, 04:11 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 2 2010, 04:04 PM) *
Between this, which it is true that it was a Democratic ploy, and the crashtheteaparty debacle, one would think that the Democrats are getting desperate. It is sad, really. I know there are very smart people in both parties, but this type of child's play makes our nation look childish and embarrassing to the rest of the world.

On a lighter side, this also makes the big two show how ugly and desperate they really are!


It's not desperation at all; rather it's very standard amoral politics.

The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats, turning many races that were sure R wins into tossups or even Democratic-leaning races (like Harry Reid, a sure loser in Nevada, is now on track to win reelection in November). Desperation is hardly an issue, even in a year where Dems stand to lose seats and have a good chance of losing the House altogether. That's not the issue.

The issue is trying to split the vote of your opposition -- thus, Republicans pushing to make sure Ralph Nader was on the ballot in 2000 and 2004, or running obvious Republicans to primary incumbent Democrats (like Dan Freilich trying to unseat Leahy in Vermont this year, now running as an Independent). It's not illegal, of course, but it seems antidemocratic to me.

First, I wouldn't say 1.3% is really on track, especially since the true campaign season starts this weekend and we don't know what tricks either side has up their sleeves.

I also don't think The Tea Party has been a godsend to Democrats. Many candidates that were Tea Party backed are doing quite well. However, how one is doing today means diddly, check back November 3rd.

I still think the tactics that I addressed show desperation. Don't kid yourself though, the desperation is only on the Democrats this year because they are in power. Check back in four years during the next mid-term to see how desperate the Republicans will be if they gain power during these mid-terms.

Sorry, forgot to add a link for my 1.3%: link


First, Rasmussen's in-house R leaning removed, Reid's doing better, and he's been consistently gaining. Regardless....

What you "think" about desperation is not relevant. Your gut feelings are not a bellwether of others' motivations. And the fact is that these sorts of legal shenanigans are very common and are not by their nature examples of desperation by either side - just tactics. Whether desperation is ever a motive is a matter solely for speculation.

So would you agree that what you "think" about it not being desperation is not relevant then? These tactics are desperate. The Democrats see seats crossing the aisle and there are those that will try anything to not promote their party, but to infiltrate the other party and try to make that party look bad.
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Raptavio
post Sep 3 2010, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:03 PM) *
So would you agree that what you "think" about it not being desperation is not relevant then? These tactics are desperate. The Democrats see seats crossing the aisle and there are those that will try anything to not promote their party, but to infiltrate the other party and try to make that party look bad.


An affirmative statement ("This is desperate") should be presumed false lacking evidence to support it.

Your assertions are completely unsupported and are thus ignorable.
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scubatim
post Sep 3 2010, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 04:06 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:03 PM) *
So would you agree that what you "think" about it not being desperation is not relevant then? These tactics are desperate. The Democrats see seats crossing the aisle and there are those that will try anything to not promote their party, but to infiltrate the other party and try to make that party look bad.


An affirmative statement ("This is desperate") should be presumed false lacking evidence to support it.

Your assertions are completely unsupported and are thus ignorable.

Actually, describing something as desperate, or saying that it isn't desperate is a matter of opinion, therefor doesn't require support. Your opinion of my statement is noted, and also ignorable.

I thought you were above this line of debate, I expected better. Disappointed.
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 3 2010, 10:28 PM
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Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?

There's no blockage in Colorado because there's no organized party by the name of Tea here, as far as I know (hedging). Google brings up tea party organizations, all lower case, and really just a bunch of people without a clue.

In the newspaper story, it stated: "Republicans and tea party activists say 'The Tea Party,' <snip> is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates." If this had been a jury trial, would that allegation seem credible to you as a juror?

No credibility without supporting evidence. In order to be a bona fide political party, there has to be structure and registrations, in other words, leaders and paper trails.

I have heard that somewhere there really is a Tea Party (or TEA Party), just not here (refer to above hedging).

Given the credibility of Republicans and tea party activists over the past two or so years, I'll take their insinuations as decapitated bodies in the Arizona desert -- just something pulled out of the backside orifice. Never happened.

However, I do see the tea party types adding leverage to the dismantling of the Republican Party. Why would Democrats need to do anything? Shoot, just point out the records of the candidates and leave it at that. It's all available on tape (digital recordings), and constructing ads from that is a snap with basic editing software. Won't have to sling mud either or use spooky sound tracks along with scary voice overs. I personally would add laugh tracks, but hey, that's why I'm not working on anybody's campaign.

*

Regarding desperation, it's appearing that the Colorado Republicans are heading that way. In years past they crossed over the legal line, but I don't think that's going to happen this time. I'm expecting some nervous breakdowns in public with cameras rolling. The pressure has to be intense now and will only get worse as we approach November.

Man. I've got it so easy. Nothing but deadlines, and most of them are self-imposed.
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Raptavio
post Sep 4 2010, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:28 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 04:06 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:03 PM) *
So would you agree that what you "think" about it not being desperation is not relevant then? These tactics are desperate. The Democrats see seats crossing the aisle and there are those that will try anything to not promote their party, but to infiltrate the other party and try to make that party look bad.


An affirmative statement ("This is desperate") should be presumed false lacking evidence to support it.

Your assertions are completely unsupported and are thus ignorable.

Actually, describing something as desperate, or saying that it isn't desperate is a matter of opinion, therefor doesn't require support. Your opinion of my statement is noted, and also ignorable.

I thought you were above this line of debate, I expected better. Disappointed.


No, it's not opinion. Those engaging in the action are either doing so out of desperation, or they are not. It's an assertion of fact you're making.

Seriously. Any statement of fact that is unsupported does not become "opinion". It's an assertion of fact made without any evidence.

But your disappointment - THAT is your opinion, and it will be given all the weight it deserves, I promise.

Regardless, neither of us is doubting that the Tea Party in Michigan is anything but a Democratic front.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 4 2010, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio)
Regardless, neither of us is doubting that the Tea Party in Michigan is anything but a Democratic front.
Then you're both wrong.

Are you saying that all these organizations are a Democratic front?
http://www.teapartypatriots.org/state/Michigan

My, but we must be an ambitious party, the Democrats, I mean (contrary to popular thinking). How is it that we have so much energy that we not only support and work for the Democratic Party, but we also have the time and energy to pour our efforts into supporting organizations dedicated to rendering meaningless the GOP and the Dem parties and getting that power?

Come on. Let's get real, folks.

Yes, I would grin and giggle if the Tea Party managed to edge out Republican candidates, but I would have no part in it taking place. It is all Curmudgeon and I can do to volunteer time for our candidate running for the state senate; we have neither the money nor the energy to dabble in Tea Party politics.

Just because the idea is cynical doesn't mean it is true. Maybe some mischief makers of the Democratic persuasion are involved, but nobody we know. Remember last year when the "Tea Party" was disrupting town meetings about health care reform? Do you really think that we would join with a group whose members are known for saying, "I don't want government controlling my health care," and "Hands off my Medicare" in the next breath?

However, I suppose that since Republicans are fond of manipulating these folks, it's only reasonable that some Democrats might want to join in on the fun... rolleyes.gif

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akaCG
post Sep 4 2010, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 11:57 AM) *
...
Maybe some mischief makers of the Democratic persuasion are involved, but nobody we know. ...
...


Just in case MSNBC fails to inform you thereof:

"The ruling comes a day after The Detroit News reported links between Democrats and The Tea Party group with 23 candidates that included the former stepmother of the former leader of the Oakland County Democratic Party being recruited to run as well as another candidate who had placed last in a 2008 Democratic primary.

The scandal over The Tea Party group forced the resignation of Mike McGuinness, the former Oakland County Democratic chairman, and the firing of Jason Bauer, an organizer for the county Democrats who has been accused of notarizing many of the nominations."

Link: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100903/PO...Michigan-ballot
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 4 2010, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Sep 4 2010, 12:12 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 11:57 AM) *
...
Maybe some mischief makers of the Democratic persuasion are involved, but nobody we know. ...
...


Just in case MSNBC fails to inform you thereof:

"The ruling comes a day after The Detroit News reported links between Democrats and The Tea Party group with 23 candidates that included the former stepmother of the former leader of the Oakland County Democratic Party being recruited to run as well as another candidate who had placed last in a 2008 Democratic primary.

The scandal over The Tea Party group forced the resignation of Mike McGuinness, the former Oakland County Democratic chairman, and the firing of Jason Bauer, an organizer for the county Democrats who has been accused of notarizing many of the nominations."

Link: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100903/PO...Michigan-ballot


Be that as it may, it still does not justify the following quotation any more than I can say that the Republican party is just a bunch of power-hungry idiots who can't keep their pants zipped but love to preach those family values:

QUOTE(Raptavio)
Regardless, neither of us is doubting that the Tea Party in Michigan is anything but a Democratic front.

This remains an incorrect, broad brush stroke. It is not an "all or nothing" situation. We are not talking about the vast list of Tea Party Patriot organizations that I linked in my previous post.

In addition, I do recall a number of political candidates who have jumped the fence and joined another party or become independents: Strom Thurmond, Zell Miller, Arlen Specter, and of course Al Gore's Vice Presidential running mate Joe Lieberman. Should they all be considered attempts to manipulate "the other party"?

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AuthorMusician
post Sep 4 2010, 04:30 PM
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I was thinking back to all the suspicions of infiltration by communists in every part of American life -- the schools, the government, the unions -- maybe not churches, but there were commies around every corner when I was growing up and later going to college.

Then I remembered one thing I had seen during the tea party demonstrations about health care. This guy, not sure what he was about or who he allegedly represented, encouraged people against the tea party stuff to show up and act extremely crazy.

That reminded me of the lampoons that were done in song regarding giving the rich big breaks, just what the hook line was escapes me. Health care for billionaires or some such.

In any case, that showing up and acting crazy thing never seemed to get off the ground. How can anyone compete with the real deal? The real deal is itself a lampoon. And . . . what good is lampoon when those being lampooned take it seriously and applaud? I'm thinking of Colbert's thing at the press corps dinner, but there are lots of other more recent examples.

How could Democrats do any better than a candidate saying straight-faced that the victims of rape must bear the resulting children? Or that we should do away with Medicare and SS with a bunch of senior citizens looking on? No chicken in every pot for YOU, and forget about the pot too! Then there are the observations that unemployment comp is bad for the unemployed. Oh yeah, and that stimulus funds were bad (but eagerly accepted); that BP is being screwed and on and on and on.

In Colorado we have this guy Maes who refuses to stop running for governor, even after being beaten in the primaries (Republican side). Even the conservative Gazette wants him to disappear.

If the Republican Party is disintegrating, it's the Republican Party's fault. However, there seems to be a mass denial of culpability going on.

It's so strange to have lived through a Republican Party that insisted everyone take responsibility and then see this mutant monstrosity emerge. Crazy is the name of the game this campaign season. Nobody needs to fake or lampoon what's already going on.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 4 2010, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Sep 4 2010, 12:30 PM) *
I was thinking back to all the suspicions of infiltration by communists in every part of American life -- the schools, the government, the unions -- maybe not churches, but there were commies around every corner when I was growing up and later going to college.

Then I remembered one thing I had seen during the tea party demonstrations about health care. This guy, not sure what he was about or who he allegedly represented, encouraged people against the tea party stuff to show up and act extremely crazy.

That reminded me of the lampoons that were done in song regarding giving the rich big breaks, just what the hook line was escapes me. Health care for billionaires or some such.

In any case, that showing up and acting crazy thing never seemed to get off the ground. How can anyone compete with the real deal? The real deal is itself a lampoon. And . . . what good is lampoon when those being lampooned take it seriously and applaud? I'm thinking of Colbert's thing at the press corps dinner, but there are lots of other more recent examples.

How could Democrats do any better than a candidate saying straight-faced that the victims of rape must bear the resulting children? Or that we should do away with Medicare and SS with a bunch of senior citizens looking on? No chicken in every pot for YOU, and forget about the pot too! Then there are the observations that unemployment comp is bad for the unemployed. Oh yeah, and that stimulus funds were bad (but eagerly accepted); that BP is being screwed and on and on and on.

In Colorado we have this guy Maes who refuses to stop running for governor, even after being beaten in the primaries (Republican side). Even the conservative Gazette wants him to disappear.

If the Republican Party is disintegrating, it's the Republican Party's fault. However, there seems to be a mass denial of culpability going on.

It's so strange to have lived through a Republican Party that insisted everyone take responsibility and then see this mutant monstrosity emerge. Crazy is the name of the game this campaign season. Nobody needs to fake or lampoon what's already going on.

Not to mention all the beheadings in the Arizona desert that Jan Brewer used to defend the "Papers Please" law, the beheadings that never took place in Arizona but in Mexico for which she fails to recant.

If the GOP gains all of these seats that they are supposed to in the mid-term, those voting for them will have had to ignore a lot of crap coming from that party, from Michael Steele on down. I remember those Republican politicans who opposed the President's stimulus programs coming front and center and signing the big fake checks in front of the cameras when the stimulus packages came through for their constituents, Louisiana's and South Carolina's Republican governors in particular. They are utterly shameless.

I am sure that those hardcore Tea Party Patriots would be offended to think that they were manipulated wholesale by Democrats when the obvious manipulators are Dick Armey, Michelle Bachman, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and FOX News, all Republican or Republican-ish in FOX's case. While some Democrats have reportedly dabbled in the affairs of some Michigan Tea Party politics, the Republicans have been in it up to their eyeballs.

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post Sep 4 2010, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Sep 4 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Just in case MSNBC fails to inform you thereof:

"The ruling comes a day after The Detroit News reported links between Democrats and The Tea Party group with 23 candidates that included the former stepmother of the former leader of the Oakland County Democratic Party being recruited to run as well as another candidate who had placed last in a 2008 Democratic primary.

Thanks for the link. I wold never have looked online for The Detroit News for accurate reporting on the Democratic Party. The Detroit News (Republican) and the Detroit Free Press (Democratic) were two well established statewide newspapers which both had good reputations until they merged several years ago to cut the costs of printing, distribution, etc. I quit subscribing to the Detroit Free Press when home delivery service was stopped outside of the Detroit Metro area. There are lots of boxes around town advertising both newspapers, but neither paper is readily available outside of the Detroit Metro area. (As I recall, they had cut to publishing three issues a week.) I can't recall the last time that I saw a newspaper in either paper's boxes. I will admit that MSNBC does routinely laugh at and debunk the Fox network; but I have never heard them quote anything printed in the Midnight Sun, the National Enquirer, The Detorit News, or The Detroit Free Press. The last report that I heard of Detroit was that over half of the housing is vacant, that they no longer have any national chain stores (K-Mart, Sears, Wal-Mart, Kroger, etc.) in the city, manufacturing jobs no longer exist, etc.

I would not state without several years of research that "Chicago Politics" was typical of Illinois or the Midwest. "Detroit Politics" has left the city of Detroit with a reputation for violence, crime, political corruption, and enough general fear that mapping services have routinely routed us around the city for safety reasons as long as I can recall. In "outstate Michigan," The Democratic Party has enough work just getting Democrats to run for office and get elected (From a phone poll, "I know the candidate well. I'd like a large yard sign. I don't intend to vote.") without trying to lend credibility to groups like The Tea Party. I had viewed the story as a delayed April Fools joke when I first read it in our local newspaper. (Which also does not get quoted daily on MSNBC.)

Does anyone here know how much Fox News pays MSNBC for adverising their programming?
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scubatim
post Sep 4 2010, 08:12 PM
Post #18


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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 07:45 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:28 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 04:06 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Sep 3 2010, 04:03 PM) *
So would you agree that what you "think" about it not being desperation is not relevant then? These tactics are desperate. The Democrats see seats crossing the aisle and there are those that will try anything to not promote their party, but to infiltrate the other party and try to make that party look bad.


An affirmative statement ("This is desperate") should be presumed false lacking evidence to support it.

Your assertions are completely unsupported and are thus ignorable.

Actually, describing something as desperate, or saying that it isn't desperate is a matter of opinion, therefor doesn't require support. Your opinion of my statement is noted, and also ignorable.

I thought you were above this line of debate, I expected better. Disappointed.


No, it's not opinion. Those engaging in the action are either doing so out of desperation, or they are not. It's an assertion of fact you're making.

Seriously. Any statement of fact that is unsupported does not become "opinion". It's an assertion of fact made without any evidence.


No, it's an opinion. I would see it as an opinion if you made the same statement.

If you and I were standing in front of a painting and I said it was pretty, would that be an opinion or fact? You might see it as ugly or disturbing. How one perceives something as I have perceived this action by the Democrats in Michigan as desperate is considered an opinion. You may perceive it as something else. Either way, neither is fact, only opinion.

QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 07:45 PM) *
But your disappointment - THAT is your opinion, and it will be given all the weight it deserves, I promise.

I guess you told me. Consider yours equally considered.

QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 3 2010, 07:45 PM) *
Regardless, neither of us is doubting that the Tea Party in Michigan is anything but a Democratic front.

At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 4 2010, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim)
At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....

People can be intellectually, honestly wrong, you know. Again, please be careful with the broad brushstrokes.

If it makes you feel better to say that Democrats in Michigan are any more "desperate" than members of the same party or the GOP in any other state, fine. The remedy is to worry less and work harder. I just hope that those suffering in this economic mess will remember how hard Democrats tried and how the Republicans worked to obstruct their plans at every turn with their non-cooperation and filibuster fixation.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Sep 4 2010, 10:01 PM
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scubatim
post Sep 4 2010, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 04:58 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim)
At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....

People can be intellectually, honestly wrong, you know. Again, please be careful with the broad brushstrokes.

If it makes you feel better to say that Democrats in Michigan are any more "desperate" than members of the same party or the GOP in any other state, fine. The remedy is to worry less and work harder. I just hope that those suffering in this economic mess will remember how hard Democrats tried and how the Republicans worked to obstruct their plans at every turn with their non-cooperation and filibuster fixation.

Broad brush strokes is what political debate has become. ad.gif is not immune or exempt. It seems to be more and more prevalent today or maybe I am just paying closer attention. Take any post most any anti-Tea Party member (not the political party this thread is about, but the 'grassroots' Tea Party you linked to which are two different entities) posts on this board and you will find broad brush strokes about the Tea Party. I admit I have avoided reading every single post, but I have yet to see you call CR out when he says something along the lines of 'Tea Partiers are SUV driving racist homophobes with nothing better to do' or 'A bunch of rich, overweight white people afraid of brown skinned people'. Those may not be exact quotes, but we have all read the posts that contain that general sentiment, just read the quote in his signature line. (Teabaggers = a group of white people that decided to get involved into politics once a black person became president)

Just because a group you associate with has been called to the carpet for something that has been proven to be true and you might be a little red faced for that group, doesn't mean you can start calling out the brush strokes now. If you feel as if you are being lumped with that group, that is an issue for yourself, not those that are ok with stating the facts.

What is interesting about your second point is that just Thursday, I was listening to a liberal talk show host on my local station claim that the Republicans had all the opportunity to get done what they wanted when they had control of the White House/Senate/House but since they didn't, they failed, and now that the Democrats are claiming it's the Republican's fault for all their failures and the Republicans will claim that the Democrats failed because they had their chance. You should try sitting outside the two party system to watch the hypocrisy fly back and forth. If it wasn't so scary, it would be funny.

This post has been edited by scubatim: Sep 4 2010, 10:57 PM
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