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> The Shooting of Trayvon Martin, self-defense or murder?
nighttimer
post Mar 18 2012, 09:05 AM
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It's been over 17 days since 17-year-old Trayvon Martin died. George Zimmerman, the blockwatch member who shot him has not been arrested or charged.
QUOTE
Trayvon, a high-school junior from Miami who was visiting family in a gated community here, was shot to death Feb. 26 when he encountered George Michael Zimmerman, captain of the neighborhood-crime-watch group.

Trayvon was returning from the convenience store and was confronted by Zimmerman, who had already called the cops to report a "suspicious person" in the neighborhood.

<snip>

Prosecutors, including State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, must now decide whether to charge 28-year-old Zimmerman with a crime. They will likely take several weeks to review the evidence and may do more investigating, a spokeswoman said.

But whatever decision they reach, it won't make everyone happy.

<snip>

At a news conference Monday that was intended to ease racial tensions, police Chief Bill Lee Jr. tried to explain that his detectives simply could not find enough evidence to justify an arrest.

And his office had not — and would not — release a recording of Zimmerman's phone call to police the night of the shooting because it was part of an ongoing investigation, a common practice by law-enforcement agencies.
<snip>


Trayvon's parents set up a petition on Change.org asking the district attorney to indict Zimmerman. The petition has garnered over 200,000 signatures. The FBI has offered their assistance to the investigation.

Protests and rallies are planned next week in Sanford with the Rev. Al Sharpton announcing he will lead one of the marches.


Questions for debate.

1. Should George Zimmerman be prosecuted in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin?

2. Zimmerman is 28 years old, weighs 250 pounds and was armed. Martin was 17, weighed 140 pounds and had a can of ice tea and a bag of Skittles candy. Do you believe Zimmerman's explanation he shot Martin in self-defense to be reasonable and plausible?

3. Do online petitions, protests, outside groups becoming involved and national media scrutiny make it more likely the truth comes out or are they sideshows that only make the situation worse?


This post has been edited by Jaime: Mar 18 2012, 11:03 PM
Reason for edit: Edited to conform cited material to forum rules
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akaCG
post Apr 11 2012, 11:58 PM
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The text of the indictment against Zimmerman is now available:

http://www.sao4th.com/documents/AR-M550N_20120412_053049.pdf

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JohnfrmCleveland
post Apr 12 2012, 12:03 AM
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Mike Tyson weighs in on the controversy:

QUOTE
"My personal feeling is that, as a young kid that was beat on by a bully, that was pretty much singled out—the guy [Zimmerman] stalked him, didn't follow instructions from a superior officer, when they said, 'Stop following the kid.' That tells you everything right there. But my all-around perspective, I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. But it's just so widespread and overt what happened. Even though this is the best country in the world, certain laws in this country are a disgrace to a nation of savages. It's a majority versus a minority. That's the way God planned it. He didn't want to do something about it, He wanted us to do something about it. And if we don't, it's gonna stay this way. We have to continue tweeting, we have to continue marching, we have to continue fighting for Trayvon Martin. If that's not the case, he was killed in vain, and we're just waiting for it to happen to our children. He'll have gotten away with impunity. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."
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akaCG
post Apr 12 2012, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Apr 11 2012, 08:03 PM) *
Mike Tyson weighs in on the controversy:

QUOTE
"My personal feeling is that, as a young kid that was beat on by a bully, that was pretty much singled out—the guy [Zimmerman] stalked him, didn't follow instructions from a superior officer, when they said, 'Stop following the kid.' That tells you everything right there. But my all-around perspective, I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. But it's just so widespread and overt what happened. Even though this is the best country in the world, certain laws in this country are a disgrace to a nation of savages. It's a majority versus a minority. That's the way God planned it. He didn't want to do something about it, He wanted us to do something about it. And if we don't, it's gonna stay this way. We have to continue tweeting, we have to continue marching, we have to continue fighting for Trayvon Martin. If that's not the case, he was killed in vain, and we're just waiting for it to happen to our children. He'll have gotten away with impunity. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."


It's all good, as is said nowadays. He'll no doubt "apologize" for said remarks, at the "appropriate" time and in the "appropriate" venue, as determined by his agent/PR manager/somesuch.

Just like Ms. Michelle Williams, Chief of Staff of the New Black Panthers, has had to "apologize" for the "thoughts" she expressed a few days ago:

"Let me tell you, the things that's about to happen, to these honkeys, these crackers, these pigs, these pink people, these ---- people. It has been long overdue. My prize right now this evening ... is gonna be the bounty, the arrest, dead or alive, for George Zimmerman. You feel me?"

QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 11 2012, 06:13 PM) *
QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 11 2012, 06:05 PM) *
Just like in China, where because Asians are in the majority they kill the most people, take the most drugs, rob the most banks, get off to the majority of the kiddie porn, rape the most women and generally commit the most crimes.

Just like in South Africa, where because blacks are in the majority they kill the most people, take the most drugs, rob the most banks, get off to the majority of the kiddie porn, rape the most women and generally commit the most crimes.

And so on.

So for those of us living in the United States, not China or South Africa, the takeaway is still the race that makes up the majority of ad.gif posters makes up the most of America's criminal element.
...

Well, that's certainly a takeaway, one featuring what might be termed "Nighttimer Special Sauce" flecked onto it (I mean, what the heck was your "the race that makes up the majority of ad.gif posters" spit-ball all about, dude? Sheesh.).

But it's certainly not the takeaway, which is that there's nothing particularly remarkable about the fact that most crimes in a given geographical area (e.g. the U.S., China, South Africa) happen to be committed by members of the race that ("wait for it") happens to be shared by the majority of the people inhabiting said geographical area.

ps:
Nor, while we're at it, is there anything particularly remarkable about the fact that most of the non-criminal element in a given geographical area (e.g. the U.S., China, South Africa) happens to be comprised of members of the race that ("wait for it") happens to be shared by the majority of the people inhabiting said geographical area.

QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 11 2012, 06:13 PM) *
...
Nice to know. At least for those that didn't know it already.
...

Those who didn't know that already, I'm afraid, are likely to suffer from a condition that might be termed "Don't Wanna Know And Don't Care".

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Raptavio
post Apr 12 2012, 02:40 AM
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And the racial makeup of criminals (or the socioeconomic makeup, or the gender makeup) of criminals generally still has squat all to do with the price of tea in China, nor the specifics of this accused second-degree murder.
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nighttimer
post Apr 12 2012, 05:27 AM
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QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Apr 11 2012, 08:03 PM) *
Mike Tyson weighs in on the controversy:

QUOTE
"My personal feeling is that, as a young kid that was beat on by a bully, that was pretty much singled out—the guy [Zimmerman] stalked him, didn't follow instructions from a superior officer, when they said, 'Stop following the kid.' That tells you everything right there. But my all-around perspective, I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. But it's just so widespread and overt what happened. Even though this is the best country in the world, certain laws in this country are a disgrace to a nation of savages. It's a majority versus a minority. That's the way God planned it. He didn't want to do something about it, He wanted us to do something about it. And if we don't, it's gonna stay this way. We have to continue tweeting, we have to continue marching, we have to continue fighting for Trayvon Martin. If that's not the case, he was killed in vain, and we're just waiting for it to happen to our children. He'll have gotten away with impunity. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."




Thanks for sharing the fascinating insights of Mike Tyson, a renowned deep and critical thinker and upright citizen whom has always behaved like a complete gentleman and responsible human being in and out of a boxing ring. I am sure everyone here was wondering what he had to say about this truly tragic situation.

I'm sure there was a point to this pithy, thought-provoking quote. Perhaps when you are so inclined you might share it with the rest of us, JohnfrmCleveland. unsure.gif

QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 11 2012, 10:36 PM) *
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 11 2012, 06:13 PM) *
QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 11 2012, 06:05 PM) *
Just like in China, where because Asians are in the majority they kill the most people, take the most drugs, rob the most banks, get off to the majority of the kiddie porn, rape the most women and generally commit the most crimes.

Just like in South Africa, where because blacks are in the majority they kill the most people, take the most drugs, rob the most banks, get off to the majority of the kiddie porn, rape the most women and generally commit the most crimes.

And so on.

So for those of us living in the United States, not China or South Africa, the takeaway is still the race that makes up the majority of ad.gif posters makes up the most of America's criminal element.
...

Well, that's certainly a takeaway, one featuring what might be termed "Nighttimer Special Sauce" flecked onto it (I mean, what the heck was your "the race that makes up the majority of ad.gif posters" spit-ball all about, dude? Sheesh.).


Stating the obvious. Or wasn't that obvious enough for you?

If you can't keep up you're just going to have to catch up. dry.gif

QUOTE(akaCG)
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 11 2012, 06:13 PM) *
...
Nice to know. At least for those that didn't know it already.
...

Those who didn't know that already, I'm afraid, are likely to suffer from a condition that might be termed "Don't Wanna Know And Don't Care".


Those folks would be best served to avoid debates such as this one then. They're liable to learn all sorts of things they don't wanna know about and don't care about.

<EDIT>

This post has been edited by Jaime: Apr 12 2012, 12:10 PM
Reason for edit: Edited to remove response to removed post
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moif
post Apr 12 2012, 11:18 AM
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So with George Zimmerman now in custody, is there a greater or lesser possiblity of civil disturbance if he is aquitted?
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Hobbes
post Apr 12 2012, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 11 2012, 09:40 PM) *
And the racial makeup of criminals (or the socioeconomic makeup, or the gender makeup) of criminals generally still has squat all to do with the price of tea in China, nor the specifics of this accused second-degree murder.


Agree, other than the potential racial profiling that might have caused Zimmerman to suspect Trayvon to begin with.
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akaCG
post Apr 12 2012, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 11 2012, 10:40 PM) *
And the racial makeup of criminals (or the socioeconomic makeup, or the gender makeup) of criminals generally still has squat all to do with the price of tea in China, nor the specifics of this accused second-degree murder.

Very true. I find your above objection quite puzzling and more than a bit ironic, however, given that it was you yourself who got the ball rolling on this "squat all to do with the price of tea in China" sub-topic when, out of a whole article that I cited and amply excerpted in response to "moif"'s wonderment at the degree of anti-Zimmerman bias displayed in this thread, you chose to focus on the one sentence that mentioned that blacks today are nine times more likely to be killed by other blacks than by whites.

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AuthorMusician
post Apr 12 2012, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE(moif @ Apr 12 2012, 07:18 AM) *
So with George Zimmerman now in custody, is there a greater or lesser possiblity of civil disturbance if he is aquitted?


I am thinking less, but this is based on a logical view of the situation. Emotions don't have to be based on logic.

Here's the logic: People became upset because Zimmerman shot a kid and was getting away with it. In response, the government called in a special prosecutor to figure out if a crime had been committed. She determined that there was enough evidence to bring a charge of second-degree murder, which is a murder of passion. Zimmerman wasn't in his right mind, which might stick to him. He wasn't behaving rationally that night.

So since he will finally be tried on alleged murder-two, the immediate upset of the protesters should be satisfied. Yes, but what if Zimmerman is found to be innocent of murder-two?

I'm not familiar with how this works, so maybe JFC can confirm or deny, but aren't court transcripts public records? I've also heard that CNN might try to televise the trial. Would this abate any accusations of a kangaroo court (guilty) or reverse kangaroo court (innocent)? I think it should, and that will be that. If found innocent, Zimmerman goes his own way and can't be tried again for the same crime. If found guilty, he then has the appeals process to work with.

Either way, I figure Zimmerman is like a man wearing a meat suit among a pack of wolves. Prison inmates really hate men who kill kids. The general population will be a threat if Zimmerman walks, at least in his own mind.

So will protesters think the same way? Or will desires for revenge, TV time, attention in other ways, booty from looting take control? With the injustice side laid to rest, my bet is that there will be no rioting in the streets. That's assuming nothing comes out of left field, something entirely unanticipated like the shooting of MLK, but more unanticipated than that.

One thing is for sure: All the speculations will be put to rest as the trial brings out actual facts and evidence. I suppose some types will try to get more mileage out of the story, but for most the tank is just about empty.
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Raptavio
post Apr 12 2012, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 12 2012, 09:11 AM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 11 2012, 10:40 PM) *
And the racial makeup of criminals (or the socioeconomic makeup, or the gender makeup) of criminals generally still has squat all to do with the price of tea in China, nor the specifics of this accused second-degree murder.

Very true. I find your above objection quite puzzling and more than a bit ironic, however, given that it was you yourself who got the ball rolling on this "squat all to do with the price of tea in China" sub-topic when, out of a whole article that I cited and amply excerpted in response to "moif"'s wonderment at the degree of anti-Zimmerman bias displayed in this thread, you chose to focus on the one sentence that mentioned that blacks today are nine times more likely to be killed by other blacks than by whites.


Yes, I admit I was suckered into the diversion provided by the Wall Street Journal via yourself. It was definitely a tactical error on my part; I can sometimes be baited into such things when someone employs statistics in misleading and racially inflammatory ways.

Regardless, I'm glad we both agree that the passages of the WSJ you cited are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. And now that the son of a Virginia magistrate is in custody, awaiting trial, the facts will slowly come to light.
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akaCG
post Apr 12 2012, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 12 2012, 11:06 AM) *
QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 12 2012, 09:11 AM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 11 2012, 10:40 PM) *
And the racial makeup of criminals (or the socioeconomic makeup, or the gender makeup) of criminals generally still has squat all to do with the price of tea in China, nor the specifics of this accused second-degree murder.

Very true. I find your above objection quite puzzling and more than a bit ironic, however, given that it was you yourself who got the ball rolling on this "squat all to do with the price of tea in China" sub-topic when, out of a whole article that I cited and amply excerpted in response to "moif"'s wonderment at the degree of anti-Zimmerman bias displayed in this thread, you chose to focus on the one sentence that mentioned that blacks today are nine times more likely to be killed by other blacks than by whites.


Yes, I admit I was suckered into the diversion provided by the Wall Street Journal via yourself. ...
...

Had I, instead of citing it in direct response to "moif"'s specific point, simply plopped Shelby Steele's article into the thread in a way unrelated to any other poster's point/question, your characterization of it as a "diversion" would be valid. But since I didn't, it isn't.

QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 12 2012, 11:06 AM) *
...
... It was definitely a tactical error on my part; I can sometimes be baited into such things when someone employs statistics in misleading and racially inflammatory ways.
...

There's nothing misleading about said statistics, nor about the way they were presented in the article. Facts are facts.

The problem occurs when people choose to become and remain "racially inflamed", either genuinely or (as too often happens) feignedly/cynically, in response to truths that are unpleasant to them. A prime example of the phenomenon is, as I've noted on several occasions on this board over time, this.

QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 12 2012, 11:06 AM) *
...
Regardless, I'm glad we both agree that the passages of the WSJ you cited are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. ...
...

Yes, the WSJ article is indeed irrelevant to the general topic. It was, however, relevant to "moif"'s specific point at the time.

QUOTE(Raptavio @ Apr 12 2012, 11:06 AM) *
...
... And now that the son of a Virginia magistrate is in custody, awaiting trial, the facts will slowly come to light.

Ideally, in a manner that is as unaccompanied by theatrics (inside and outside the courtroom) as possible.

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Paladin Elspeth
post Apr 12 2012, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE(moif @ Apr 12 2012, 07:18 AM) *
So with George Zimmerman now in custody, is there a greater or lesser possiblity of civil disturbance if he is aquitted?

There is a lower or lesser probability of civil disturbance if Zimmerman is acquitted. Zimmerman can now be tried in court, where it will be determined what did or didn't happen on the night he killed Trayvon Martin. There will no longer be speculation as to whether Martin managed to lay a hand on Zimmerman, much less break his nose or knock his head on the cement. There will be experts called upon to examine forensic evidence to help determine whether Zimmerman was telling the truth, or whether he was scared and trying to somehow justify shooting an unarmed young man.
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Raptavio
post Apr 12 2012, 04:43 PM
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Nice try, akaCG, but you're not diverting me twice.

There will, certainly, be theatrics outside the courtroom; there will be a certain level of theatrics inside the courtroom.

I think, however, one and only one fact will save or damn George Zimmerman, and that fact is whether or not it was his voice or Trayvon's heard screaming for help on the 911 tape before the fatal shot was fired.

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JohnfrmCleveland
post Apr 12 2012, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 12 2012, 01:27 AM) *
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Apr 11 2012, 08:03 PM) *
Mike Tyson weighs in on the controversy:

QUOTE
"My personal feeling is that, as a young kid that was beat on by a bully, that was pretty much singled out—the guy [Zimmerman] stalked him, didn't follow instructions from a superior officer, when they said, 'Stop following the kid.' That tells you everything right there. But my all-around perspective, I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. But it's just so widespread and overt what happened. Even though this is the best country in the world, certain laws in this country are a disgrace to a nation of savages. It's a majority versus a minority. That's the way God planned it. He didn't want to do something about it, He wanted us to do something about it. And if we don't, it's gonna stay this way. We have to continue tweeting, we have to continue marching, we have to continue fighting for Trayvon Martin. If that's not the case, he was killed in vain, and we're just waiting for it to happen to our children. He'll have gotten away with impunity. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."




Thanks for sharing the fascinating insights of Mike Tyson, a renowned deep and critical thinker and upright citizen whom has always behaved like a complete gentleman and responsible human being in and out of a boxing ring. I am sure everyone here was wondering what he had to say about this truly tragic situation.

I'm sure there was a point to this pithy, thought-provoking quote. Perhaps when you are so inclined you might share it with the rest of us, JohnfrmCleveland. unsure.gif


You don't recognize the familiar elements in Tyson's rant?

Zimmerman stalked Martin.
I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but it's just so obvious to me.
It's a majority versus a minority.
If we don't do something, it's going to happen to our children.
Let's kill the guy in retribution.

You may think Tyson is a clown, and he is - but this is basically no different than most of the arguments I've heard from the other side in this "debate." At the core of your argument is race, whether or not race was even a factor in this tragedy. There was never - never - a chance that you would consider the possibility that the police were not at fault here. That was a foregone conclusion. Zimmerman? Guilty. He should be in jail, and screw his rights as a defendant (what rights does Trayvon have? He's DEAD!). Never mind that those rights protect black defendants as well. Screw due process! And if there are riots, there is good reason behind them! - because even if your suspicions are wrong and the Sanford cops aren't a bunch of corrupt racists that let Zimmerman go because the victim was black, people are justified in protesting them anyway. They must be, because Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are there, too. It's about time for a good riot. It's been, what, 20 years?

Your reasoning throughout this thread hasn't been much different than that of the mob marching around outside the Sanford Police station - 80% emotion, 20% speculation, 0% law. You had better hope they are right, and this turns out to be some combination of hate crime/police corruption/systemic racism, because otherwise you are going to come off as a one-note singer.

*************************

QUOTE(moif @ Apr 12 2012, 07:18 AM) *
So with George Zimmerman now in custody, is there a greater or lesser possiblity of civil disturbance if he is aquitted?


That depends on whether or not this stays in the news. It should take a while before the meaty part of the trial gets underway, which might act as a cooling off period.

But if there is an acquittal, it won't just be the Sanford Police who are corrupt racists, it will be the whole system. If Zimmerman goes free, it will probably be because there isn't much evidence, and that result isn't going to change anyone's mind who already thinks Zimmerman's self-defense claim isn't justified. And if Zimmerman goes to jail, well, that's just going to look like the Sanford Police initially released him because they are racists. This is a no-win situation for law enforcement.

*************************

QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Apr 12 2012, 10:59 AM) *
I'm not familiar with how this works, so maybe JFC can confirm or deny, but aren't court transcripts public records? I've also heard that CNN might try to televise the trial. Would this abate any accusations of a kangaroo court (guilty) or reverse kangaroo court (innocent)? I think it should, and that will be that. If found innocent, Zimmerman goes his own way and can't be tried again for the same crime. If found guilty, he then has the appeals process to work with.


Documents become public records once they are filed, unless the judge blocks access for awhile, which he should. Televising the trial would be a mistake as well, if we want the defendant to have a fair trial. A transcript of the whole trial wouldn't normally be filed with the motions and stuff, and they would be crazy to make that available before the trial is over, for the same reasons they would be crazy to allow television cameras into the courtroom. The room may or may not be open to outsiders - it usually is.

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post Apr 12 2012, 05:51 PM
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First thing I think when I see this story is that someone is trying to start a racial riot. I live in a city where a black man or teenager is killed just about everyday. Many of those killings go unpunished, usually because the shooter is unknown. However, in every circumstance these killings are black-on-black. Never once have these killings reached national media attention. It is because black-on-black killings don't get either race excited. White people usually laugh and encourage more of it and black people view it as an internal issue. So somebody in power is looking for an angle, very rarely is justice a concern for the networks. The networks don't view this is an injustice, but an opportunity.

Zimmerman is being called a "white" hispanic. How that's possible, I don't know. So clearly there is an intention to create a divide.

With all that said, I agree with Tyson. Why Zimmerman hasn't been killed is beyond me. I view this situation from my perspective, what if that were my child? Well it's simple really, the cops come to me and say, "The shooter is protected under law such and such, and since his actions were lawful we are setting him free. We are really sorry for your tragedy." I would politely thank them and then go immediately to the local gun store and buy a high-powered shotgun with semi-automatic capabilities and about two boxes of ammo. Then I'd kill Zimmerman. Plain and simple. I wouldn't hold a rally, or sign an online petition or write a letter to my local politician. I'd spread Zimmerman's guts all over the street like mustard on sandwich bread. Then I'd hide behind the same law they used to let Zimmerman free.
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akaCG
post Apr 12 2012, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Apr 12 2012, 10:59 AM) *
...
Either way, I figure Zimmerman is like a man wearing a meat suit among a pack of wolves. Prison inmates really hate men who kill kids. ...
...

That applies to men who abuse/kidnap/rape/kill children (say, 3' tall 3-year olds), not to men who shoot and kill 6' tall 17-year olds.

EDITED TO ADD:

QUOTE(barnaby2341 @ Apr 12 2012, 01:51 PM) *
...
... black-on-black killings don't get either race excited. White people usually laugh and encourage more of it ...
...
With all that said, I agree with Tyson. Why Zimmerman hasn't been killed is beyond me. I view this situation from my perspective, what if that were my child? Well it's simple really, the cops come to me and say, "The shooter is protected under law such and such, and since his actions were lawful we are setting him free. We are really sorry for your tragedy." I would politely thank them and then go immediately to the local gun store and buy a high-powered shotgun with semi-automatic capabilities and about two boxes of ammo. Then I'd kill Zimmerman. Plain and simple. I wouldn't hold a rally, or sign an online petition or write a letter to my local politician. I'd spread Zimmerman's guts all over the street like mustard on sandwich bread. Then I'd hide behind the same law they used to let Zimmerman free.

Wow.

Just ... wow.

This post has been edited by akaCG: Apr 12 2012, 06:17 PM
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Raptavio
post Apr 12 2012, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Apr 12 2012, 12:29 PM) *
You don't recognize the familiar elements in Tyson's rant?

Zimmerman stalked Martin.
I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but it's just so obvious to me.
It's a majority versus a minority.
If we don't do something, it's going to happen to our children.
Let's kill the guy in retribution.

You may think Tyson is a clown, and he is - but this is basically no different than most of the arguments I've heard from the other side in this "debate."


Okay. Pull over with this line of argumentation. I'm going to need to see your ID.

Name one person -- ONE -- in this debate who said anything remotely close to this: "Let's kill the guy in retribution. "

That is a slander, sir, and an insult.
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barnaby2341
post Apr 12 2012, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Apr 12 2012, 01:11 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Apr 12 2012, 10:59 AM) *
...
Either way, I figure Zimmerman is like a man wearing a meat suit among a pack of wolves. Prison inmates really hate men who kill kids. ...
...

That applies to men who abuse/kidnap/rape/kill children (say, 3' tall 3-year olds), not to men who shoot and kill 6' tall 17-year olds.

EDITED TO ADD:

QUOTE(barnaby2341 @ Apr 12 2012, 01:51 PM) *
First thing I think when I see this story is that someone is trying to start a racial riot. I live in a city where a black man or teenager is killed just about everyday. Many of those killings go unpunished, usually because the shooter is unknown. However, in every circumstance these killings are black-on-black. Never once have these killings reached national media attention. It is because black-on-black killings don't get either race excited. White people usually laugh and encourage more of it and black people view it as an internal issue. So somebody in power is looking for an angle, very rarely is justice a concern for the networks. The networks don't view this is an injustice, but an opportunity.

Zimmerman is being called a "white" hispanic. How that's possible, I don't know. So clearly there is an intention to create a divide.

With all that said, I agree with Tyson. Why Zimmerman hasn't been killed is beyond me. I view this situation from my perspective, what if that were my child? Well it's simple really, the cops come to me and say, "The shooter is protected under law such and such, and since his actions were lawful we are setting him free. We are really sorry for your tragedy." I would politely thank them and then go immediately to the local gun store and buy a high-powered shotgun with semi-automatic capabilities and about two boxes of ammo. Then I'd kill Zimmerman. Plain and simple. I wouldn't hold a rally, or sign an online petition or write a letter to my local politician. I'd spread Zimmerman's guts all over the street like mustard on sandwich bread. Then I'd hide behind the same law they used to let Zimmerman free.

Wow.

Just ... wow.

At least you didn't really really me.....so what is so surprising? The PD is basically saying to the Martin family, your son deserved to die.

How do you respond to that? By holding a sign? thumbsup.gif
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Raptavio
post Apr 12 2012, 06:42 PM
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Son of a biscuit eater. There's barnaby, right there, to totally shoot down my moral outrage.

Okay, that's one.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Apr 12 2012, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE(barnaby2341 @ Apr 12 2012, 01:51 PM) *
First thing I think when I see this story is that someone is trying to start a racial riot. I live in a city where a black man or teenager is killed just about everyday. Many of those killings go unpunished, usually because the shooter is unknown. However, in every circumstance these killings are black-on-black. Never once have these killings reached national media attention. It is because black-on-black killings don't get either race excited. White people usually laugh and encourage more of it and black people view it as an internal issue. So somebody in power is looking for an angle, very rarely is justice a concern for the networks. The networks don't view this is an injustice, but an opportunity.

Zimmerman is being called a "white" hispanic. How that's possible, I don't know. So clearly there is an intention to create a divide.

With all that said, I agree with Tyson. Why Zimmerman hasn't been killed is beyond me. I view this situation from my perspective, what if that were my child? Well it's simple really, the cops come to me and say, "The shooter is protected under law such and such, and since his actions were lawful we are setting him free. We are really sorry for your tragedy." I would politely thank them and then go immediately to the local gun store and buy a high-powered shotgun with semi-automatic capabilities and about two boxes of ammo. Then I'd kill Zimmerman. Plain and simple. I wouldn't hold a rally, or sign an online petition or write a letter to my local politician. I'd spread Zimmerman's guts all over the street like mustard on sandwich bread. Then I'd hide behind the same law they used to let Zimmerman free.

And that, I suppose, is one big reason why George Zimmerman will be held in jail, not because of anything Trayvon Martin's parents have said, but because of what you and others unrelated to the case have expressed. Killing George Zimmerman would make the situation even worse, and it obviously couldn't bring back Trayvon to his parents. There is much more involved here than simple vengeance and retaliation, as with all cases of this nature.

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