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Julian
post Oct 29 2010, 10:22 AM
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This Youtube clip is doing the rounds on TV and teh interwebz.

It shows a Tea Party supporter who was (until this) on Rand Paul's campaign staff stamping on the shoulder, neck and head of an unarmed woman counter-demonstrator from MoveOn.org, outside the Kentucky Senatorial debate on Monday evening, while another Tea Party suppporter (and organiser for an Open Carry group - Mike Pezzano) held her down. The victim was, thankfully, only left with mild concussion.

The man doing the stamping - Tim Profitt, until recently the Bourbon City organiser for the Rand Paul campaign - was wearing a "Don't Tread On Me" badge at the time. Who said Americans don't do irony?

Now, many on the right have been characterised as "Islamophobic" for generalising about all Muslims based upon the actions of a few extremists, including here on ad.gif. It stcuk me this might be an interesting thread to exlplore, particularly given Bikerdad's and my exchange about hypocrisy on the Undereducated vs uneducated thread

Questions for debate:
If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

Coming from a different angle:

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?




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Dontreadonme
post Oct 29 2010, 11:29 AM
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If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

The point can definitely be argued. There is one segment of the active polity who talks of '2nd Amendment solutions', espouses that 'violent overthrow' of the government is not off the table, and carries weapons to political rallies. It's not Muslims.....

By no means is this the only or 'isolated' incident.

The actions of these two, and others, are not going to deter the true believers who think they are defending this great nation against a Marxist Kenyan Communist....but it makes them look even more fringe to those who can actually define Marxism and Communism. Thug tactics have occurred previously in our history, but outside of the South a few decades ago, most took place in an era that we would now consider not as enlightened. The polarization of the media has occurred before and it's happening again...coincidence?

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

I think the polity has been fed an increasing dosage of 'this is the most important election ever!'. The media, which stands only to gain profit from the incitement of two minimally differentiated parties, has increased the amount and tenor of their carefully crafted 'both sides of the issue' programs.....to the point where they eclipse actual new reporting.

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?

The Republican Party, the Democratic Party and the media in general.

This post has been edited by Dontreadonme: Oct 29 2010, 11:35 AM
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Lesly
post Oct 29 2010, 12:19 PM
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If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two?
Silly Jules. Teabaggers will never be a problem. These two groups have nothing in common. TBs love America. Muslims hate America. TBs believe in freedom. Muslims hate freedom. TBs believe in mutual respect except when it comes to political activists pulling a stunt on their candidates. Muslims don't believe in mutual respect. Ad nausuem.

In other words, TBs own the language of jingoism and can do no wrong as a group.

Edit: It's not irony if the person you're stomping is a traitor.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 29 2010, 02:08 PM
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If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

Of course this incident reflects badly on the tea party movement. How could it not? That doesn't mean that each and every tea party member is criminally violent, but if they don't condemn incidences of violence and/or criminality that are associated with their movement, they are responsible in part by that association. And it often isn't possible to dissociated oneself from incidences like this without leaving the movement...I left PETA long ago, for instance, for similar reasons. Didn't want to be associated with the radical members...I decided it was too 'out there' for me, even at the age of 19-20.

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

"Just now"? huh.gif Really? Look through some of the old threads around election time from back in the past. We had actual, SERIOUS discussions about 911 conspiracy to kill people for oil and Bush's and Dr Evil Cheney's involvement. I'm not sure it gets any worse than that. I don't see that much has changed in the past six-eight years.

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?

In a world full of soundbites and people very willing to accept information that confirms their own biases, politicians have quite a lot to gain actually. It's much easier to motivate people when they feel like they have a cause.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 29 2010, 02:09 PM
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Amlord
post Oct 29 2010, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 29 2010, 10:08 AM) *
If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

Of course this incident reflects badly on the tea party movement. How could it not? That doesn't mean that each and every tea party member is criminally violent, but if they don't condemn incidences of violence and/or criminality that are associated with their movement, they are responsible in part by that association. And it often isn't possible to dissociated oneself from incidences like this without leaving the movement...I left PETA long ago, for instance, for similar reasons. Didn't want to be associated with the radical members...I decided it was too 'out there' for me, even at the age of 19-20.

Exactly!!

The problem is when mainstream people do not condemn the radical actions of their associates.

This guy was fired. His actions were not acceptable and Rand Paul did not attempt to justify what he did.

After 9/11, what we saw was certain Muslim areas celebrating the attacks. What we have not heard very loudly is condemnation of the actions of Al Qaeda.

That makes all the difference.

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

If you listen to Obama, you'd think it was because people are scared.

In reality, tempers aren't any higher now than they have been in the past 20 years or so. There is just a "throw the bums" out attitude and the incumbent bums don't like it and are exaggerating the problem.

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?

Nobody, which is why this guy was fired. Violence in not acceptable in a political context. Change must come via the ballot box.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 29 2010, 03:07 PM
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I don't think that the all-or-nothing idea applies. I do not think Tea Party people exclusively own the "mob mentality" nor will they. It's at least as old as "Give us Barabbas!" and probably much older than that. Theirs (the T.P.) is merely the most recent example.

Clearly not "all Muslims" are a problem either when it comes to terrorists, even though some of the T.P. have chosen to ignore our own home-grown terrorists such as the late Timothy McVeigh when making their pronouncements.

Tempers are running high right now over the elections because there really is a need for reform in our government, but we've got some real yahoos saying they will defend the Constitution as it was originally written, all the while saying that they will legislate to make abortion a crime or talking about "Second Amendment remedies" for dealing with government leaders with whom they disagree. Thomas Jefferson's quotation about the Tree of Liberty needing to be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots has been used altogether too often, linking reforming our government system with the threat of violence. If we're lucky, a wingnut won't take it to heart and decide to empty a clip on the floor of some legislature; if we're lucky, it's just bloviating.

I am tired of this election cycle. I am tired of hearing and reading lies perpetrated upon political candidates by opposing political candidates and their campaigns. If what a given political candidate says and what that political candidate's background show merit, it should not be necessary to play to the prejudices of the public (or is it rabble?) in order to be elected. Yet it happens every election year.

In the situation alluded to with the Rand Paul campaign, the man in question who actually stomped the female political activist was dropped by the campaign. (They did keep his campaign contributions, though.) This man actually said that he wants an apology from the woman who suffered a concussion because of him. What a guy...

Seems that all candidates need to caution their supporters to stay calm, cool and collected. Of course, this is harder when the candidate himself (or herself) comes across as a hothead and likes to whip up the frenzy. It is one example of leadership that our Congress or governors' offices do not need.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Oct 29 2010, 03:08 PM
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 29 2010, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 29 2010, 11:04 AM) *
The problem is when mainstream people do not condemn the radical actions of their associates.

This guy was fired. His actions were not acceptable and Rand Paul did not attempt to justify what he did.


The problem I had with Rand Paul's statement was the insinuation that the other side was guilty of the same behavior. Unless I missed something, that is disingenuous at best.
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Amlord
post Oct 29 2010, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 29 2010, 11:11 AM) *
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 29 2010, 11:04 AM) *
The problem is when mainstream people do not condemn the radical actions of their associates.

This guy was fired. His actions were not acceptable and Rand Paul did not attempt to justify what he did.


The problem I had with Rand Paul's statement was the insinuation that the other side was guilty of the same behavior. Unless I missed something, that is disingenuous at best.

Emotions were running high at that event and they have been throughout that campaign. It is one of the dirtiest in the country in my opinion and I think the candidates don't like each other in the least.

That's politics, but the bottom line is that he canned the guy.
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 29 2010, 03:29 PM
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Don't get me wrong, Paul obviously did the right thing.....but the sort of caveat he inserted seems to be the norm lately to avoid full and total accountability.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 29 2010, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 29 2010, 11:11 AM) *
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 29 2010, 11:04 AM) *
The problem is when mainstream people do not condemn the radical actions of their associates.

This guy was fired. His actions were not acceptable and Rand Paul did not attempt to justify what he did.


The problem I had with Rand Paul's statement was the insinuation that the other side was guilty of the same behavior. Unless I missed something, that is disingenuous at best.


You'd have to go back to the 1960s and early 1970s to find left-wing terrorists, although they weren't called that back then. I'm pretty sure the right wing is thinking this way in their own defense. Well, that doesn't make a spit of difference right now.

The only rational conclusion is that the left had lost control back then, and now it's the right that has lost control. Control has been lost. This makes it dangerous to be around the rabid right, just like hanging around the rough parts of town. Asking questions or doing something else that sets them off results in this sort of thing.

I suppose next will be FBI infiltration of the tea bag pseudo organizations and perhaps the GOP proper, but not until after Tuesday. After Tuesday at least some of the organizations will be exploring their Second Amendment options, and among them might be terrorist bombings. Assassinations might be another. Maybe this time that will be the primary focus.

Can't vote the bums out, shoot them out. There's been precedence set in the anti-abortion assassinations.

If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

Only to those who saw the violence potential of the tea party types before. We're just shaking our heads and thinking, yeah. We knew it'd come to this. Those who see violence as being a viable option will eventually resort to it. I just don't see any difference between Muslim terrorists and domestic terrorists.

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

It's because the tea party types are afraid that they are losing the political debate. Next comes the shootings.

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?

Since when has assaulting a woman become a type of politics? I see that as a crime. Even when the left-wing radicals were blowing up stuff, robbing banks and killing cops, I saw that all as criminal, not political. If the right wing insists that stomping on a woman's head is a political statement, they are criminals too.

Nobody stands to gain anything from criminal behavior. It doesn't pay.




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Ashton Wooldridg...
post Oct 29 2010, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(Julian @ Oct 29 2010, 06:22 AM) *
This Youtube clip is doing the rounds on TV and teh interwebz.

It shows a Tea Party supporter who was (until this) on Rand Paul's campaign staff stamping on the shoulder, neck and head of an unarmed woman counter-demonstrator from MoveOn.org, outside the Kentucky Senatorial debate on Monday evening, while another Tea Party suppporter (and organiser for an Open Carry group - Mike Pezzano) held her down. The victim was, thankfully, only left with mild concussion.

The man doing the stamping - Tim Profitt, until recently the Bourbon City organiser for the Rand Paul campaign - was wearing a "Don't Tread On Me" badge at the time. Who said Americans don't do irony?

Now, many on the right have been characterised as "Islamophobic" for generalising about all Muslims based upon the actions of a few extremists, including here on ad.gif. It stcuk me this might be an interesting thread to exlplore, particularly given Bikerdad's and my exchange about hypocrisy on the Undereducated vs uneducated thread

Questions for debate:
If all Muslims are a 'problem' because some Muslims are terrorists, or terrorist sympathisers/apologists, have all Tea Party activists now become a problem because of the actions of these two? If not, why not?

Coming from a different angle:

Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

Who stands to gain from this type of politics, and are they the same people who are the public face of politics on all sides?



This is the level the far right fringes behave upon. They have been feeding on the hatred an dfear the corporations have given them, long with the Pat Robertson cult "Born gains".

They are just behaving as they have been programmed to do. They never have to defend their beliefs because they can't. They can only throw out lies and hatred.

I truly believe this type of thuggery will turn off even more moderate and TRUE conservatives in the republican party, who will stay home rather than see their party taken over by thugs
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akaCG
post Oct 29 2010, 04:01 PM
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Why are tempers running quite so high in American politics just now?

There's nothing new about any of this. It's the kind of thing that led Jefferson and Adams to not speak to each other for over 10 years, for example.

But worry not. The President's referring to his political opponents as "enemies" a couple of days ago should calm things right down.


QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 29 2010, 11:11 AM) *
...
The problem I had with Rand Paul's statement was the insinuation that the other side was guilty of the same behavior. Unless I missed something, that is disingenuous at best.

Paul's statement insinuated nothing of the kind:

“The Paul for Senate campaign is extremely disappointed in, and condemns the actions of a supporter last night outside the KET debate. Whatever the perceived provocation, any level of aggression or violence is deplorable, and will not be tolerated by our campaign. The Paul campaign has disassociated itself from the volunteer who took part in this incident, and once again urges all activists — on both sides — to remember that their political passions should never manifest themselves in physical altercations of any kind.”

Pretty straightforward "Let's keep it civil, people" statement, one that deplores physical agression of ANY KIND, ranging from the kind engaged in by the "stomper" Conan the Barbarian wannabe idiot to the kind engaged in by the "shove a cardboard sign into someone's face" Rachel Corrie wannabe idiot.
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 29 2010, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 29 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Paul's statement insinuated nothing of the kind:


You are quite right. Apparently the extended video showing Valle pushing a sign towards an open car window didn't come out until yesterday, and I hadn't seen it. Although the two acts are not quite equal, the Paul statement concerning both sides has a bit more context. I retract that element, but still stand by my earlier post.
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Lesly
post Oct 29 2010, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 29 2010, 12:01 PM) *
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 29 2010, 11:11 AM) *
The problem I had with Rand Paul's statement was the insinuation that the other side was guilty of the same behavior. Unless I missed something, that is disingenuous at best.
Paul's statement insinuated nothing of the kind: "The Paul for Senate campaign is extremely disappointed in, and condemns the actions of a supporter last night outside the KET debate. Whatever the perceived provocation, any level of aggression or violence is deplorable, and will not be tolerated by our campaign.
"Whatever the provocation" suggests the stuntwoman had it coming. People who fetishize authoritarian values (always respect police, don't question tradition, etc.) might think think the woman got off easy with public humiliation. Unless liberals started sprouting bombs on their heads you don't need to step on them like that.

QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 29 2010, 12:01 PM) *
The President's referring to his political opponents as "enemies" a couple of days ago should calm things right down.
I fit the profile of a potential terrorist a few years ago for attending college and hating the Iraq war per Bush's DoJ.

As for RP, he won't return Proffit's (LOL!) money. Paul will be indistinguishable from the old guard if he wins. His soul is expensive, but there's plenty to go around.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 29 2010, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 29 2010, 12:31 PM) *
As for RP, he won't return Proffit's (LOL!) money.


He won't? How do you know this?

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Lesly
post Oct 29 2010, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 29 2010, 01:05 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 29 2010, 12:31 PM) *
As for RP, he won't return Proffit's (LOL!) money.
He won't? How do you know this?
He changed his mind about giving it back. I doubt he'll change his mind twice, if he decided to give it back at all.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 29 2010, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 29 2010, 01:21 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 29 2010, 01:05 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 29 2010, 12:31 PM) *
As for RP, he won't return Proffit's (LOL!) money.
He won't? How do you know this?
He changed his mind about giving it back. I doubt he'll change his mind twice, if he decided to give it back at all.


Well, you know, he accepted that money back when Proffit wasn't a proven violent nutjob....

JK. Yeah, he should really give it back. Moment of truth time, and keeping it will cost him more than giving it back. Too late now though with the waffle.
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Lesly
post Oct 29 2010, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 29 2010, 01:35 PM) *
Well, you know, he accepted that money back when Proffit wasn't a proven violent nutjob.
I can see it both ways. You can't vet every body before you take their money. I doubt most politicians, no matter how well connected, don't have money around to do that kind of research, even when the donor is an organizaton. Still, people will use expectations against you, and his refusal to give the money back is as bad as taking money from the Chamber of Commerce and other "grassroots" orgs, something 99% of politicians do, Republicrat or not.
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post Oct 29 2010, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 29 2010, 12:15 PM) *
QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 29 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Paul's statement insinuated nothing of the kind:


You are quite right. Apparently the extended video showing Valle pushing a sign towards an open car window didn't come out until yesterday, and I hadn't seen it. Although the two acts are not quite equal, the Paul statement concerning both sides has a bit more context. I retract that element, but still stand by my earlier post.


Having now seen this second video, I can see why security pulled her back from the car and why she was wrestled to the ground a few moments later. After her initial run-in with Paul's security, she decided to run around the car and tried to run toward Paul with the sign - you can see this at around the 50 second mark. I can see how it might be necessary to restrain her. The head stomping, however, is inexcusable.

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akaCG
post Oct 29 2010, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ Oct 29 2010, 02:58 PM) *
... The head stomping, however, is inexcusable.

It sure is. The activista idiot was already on the ground and secured. The "stomper" idiot deserves to have the book thrown at him.
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