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covid questions
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 24 2020, 03:30 PM
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I hope I did this poll correctly (it has been a long while).
I am curious how many people know anyone who has had covid. We know a great many people, and out of all of them we only know four personally who had covid.
None of them had to go to the hospital for treatment (not even our seventy-something year old neighbors).

What are your thoughts on the lockdown? This is casual, no debate.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 25 2020, 01:24 AM
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Blackstone
post Oct 24 2020, 09:37 PM
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In your experience, is the cost of a lockdown worth the gains? Feel free to elaborate.

This question, as it's worded, is essentially impossible to answer. While the costs of the lockdowns can be to some degree measured in terms of our personal experience, there's nothing our own personal experiences can tell us about what the potential benefits are, i.e., how many lives are saved by these measures. The only way we could even begin to know an answer like that is to look very much outside our personal experiences - to statistical studies and things like that, and even then we'd have to be sure that those sources are trustworthy, which again our personal experience will tell us practically nothing about.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 3 2020, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 24 2020, 05:37 PM) *
In your experience, is the cost of a lockdown worth the gains? Feel free to elaborate.

This question, as it's worded, is essentially impossible to answer. While the costs of the lockdowns can be to some degree measured in terms of our personal experience, there's nothing our own personal experiences can tell us about what the potential benefits are, i.e., how many lives are saved by these measures. The only way we could even begin to know an answer like that is to look very much outside our personal experiences - to statistical studies and things like that, and even then we'd have to be sure that those sources are trustworthy, which again our personal experience will tell us practically nothing about.


That's fair. I changed the question and moved this to casual conversation.

I now know two more people with COVID.
Our neighbors.
So first our neighbors to the right of our home had COVID and now our neighbors to the left have it.
Fortunately, they are younger (in their 50s, not 70s like the ones to our right).
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net2007
post Nov 18 2020, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 24 2020, 10:30 AM) *
I hope I did this poll correctly (it has been a long while).
I am curious how many people know anyone who has had covid. We know a great many people, and out of all of them we only know four personally who had covid.
None of them had to go to the hospital for treatment (not even our seventy-something year old neighbors).

What are your thoughts on the lockdown? This is casual, no debate.


I'll keep this one casual by mentioning little to nothing on politics but would like to address your original question a bit if that's okay. I'm writing another reply to Droop so I wont go too far into all the details on this reply. thumbsup.gif

To address what you're saying here, I don't know anyone personally who has contracted Covid-19 but my sister and girlfriend both know someone who has. Case numbers are going up right now so that could easily change but so far we've been very fortunate. My mother has chronic and severe health conditions so we do what we can to keep her safe. Coincidentally she's been on hydroxychloroquine for years to help treat her athritus. Whether or not it will help for Covid-19, I have no idea. Many doctors think it doesn't help but some doctors swear by it. That's been the story of Covid-19 in general, health experts, the media, and politicians have often sent mixed messages about what's best for us. I will say this, Hydroxychloriqune isn't on any list I've read for the most deadly prescription or over the counter drugs. Ironically enough, Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is on those list so with that said, I don't expect Hydroxiclhoriquine will put my moms health at risk...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/...rates/39807161/

To talk about lockdowns, I thought they were very important when this virus first broke out. We heard the phrase "15 days to slow the spread" from the media and health experts. Initially the idea was to slow the spread of Covid-19 enough for us to have time to prepare supplies and prepare our hospitals. To me that made sense but as time progressed, 15 days became a couple of months, then that eventually that became 8 months for some locations and now we have some people wanting lockdowns late into next year. Dr. Fauci is saying it may be 2022 before we see "some semblances of normality". Although he wasn't suggesting we should go back to nationwide shutdowns when he said that, some areas are deciding to lockdown again due to this more recent spike in cases.

I don't think lockdowns will last too much longer for reasons I'll explain below but...
  • To over the bad news first....
I believe that Covid-19 lockdowns have been doing more harm than good for quite some time now. First, there's the economic concern with shutting down states or cities. Small businesses have been forced to shutdown and even larger corporations and industries have struggled in many cases. For example, the lumber industry got hit hard due to lockdowns which has been hard for individuals who are building and I imagine for many smaller construction-based businesses as well. As for my situation, we're currently building a house but we did cost estimates for lumber and other materials before the economy took a hit. We're too far along now to turn back on this project but the price of lumber has increased 130% since April which has put us in a difficult spot...

https://nebldgsupply.com/strong-demand-and-...%20on%20average.

It started costing us nearly 40 dollars for one treated 6 x 6 pine board to use as support piers which forced us to switch to cinder blocks. Stacking those and filling them with concrete and rebar is actually cheaper than one 6 x 6 board which is crazy. There's nothing we can do about the framing lumber though, we'll have to buy that soon. Overall, the cost of building our house has gone up by several thousand dollars.

Considering the situation that some people are in, we're actually very lucky. The worst impacts of the lockdowns aren't economic, it's the effect they've had on the public both emotionally and physically. Not only that, at the same time that the public has been put under increased economic and emotional stress, access to community support services has dropped. For example, in many cases, mental health practices and churches have either severely limited access or have gone virtual. The impact on children has been substantial as well with widespread school closures and many daycare facilities shutting their doors. I believe that these things have contributed to the spikes we see in suicide rates and the increase in drug and alcohol abuse. As far as the impacts on the publics physical health, multiple things have happened.

Most concerning to me was the number of doctors who have come forward voicing concern over the drop off in checkups and a reduction in the amount of medications that are prescribed for potentially life-threatening conditions. Here are some numbers that address just the drop-off in cancer screenings back in the month of May alone when lockdowns first became widespread...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7436906/
http://trustedindustryexpert.com/lls3qk1m7...ure-breast.html

To quote this source...

QUOTE
"The final observed weekly volumes for breast (559), colon (402), and cervical cancer (66) represent drops of 94%, 86%, and 94% respectively relative to averages prior to January 20, 2020."


And this is just in relation to drops in screenings for 3 different types of cancer. Not considering other illnesses, on the topic of cancer alone, this gets more concerning....

https://cancerletter.com/articles/20200501_1/

This medical article revealed a 17% drop in visits involving chemotherapy and cancellations and no-shows nearly doubling, going up to 80%. What that means is that people who already have cancer aren't getting their chemotherapy medications at the same rate because they're too afraid to go to the hospital. I think the lockdowns have contributed to this phenomenon on some level but more than anything I think this is the end result of how Covid-19 has been presented to the public. Covid-19 case numbers and the number of people who have died from this disease are statistics that should be covered by the media, that's vitally important but I believe they should be putting more emphasis on other statistics as well and do more to encourage people to get help for other serious medical conditions.

I want to end on a positive note, I very much believe that things are going to improve dramatically in the months to come. The media has focused heavily on Covid-19 case numbers, every time there's a spike in the number of cases we hear about it. Whenever the amount of deaths in America clears a new number, like 200,000, we hear about that as well. What we don't hear about nearly as much are statistics on the fatality rate of Covid-19 and these numbers have consistently gone down since May with no exception which is extremely important. For example, the Covid-19 case fatality rate peaked in May, at 6.1%. This means that in May if you include everyone who tested positive for Covid-19, about 6% of them died. Today, the case fatality rate is down to 2.2% and it keeps dropping because last month it was at 2.7%...

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data...;pickerSort=asc

Keep in mind that these are averages, the case fatality rate actually isn't 2.2% for most age groups. The case fatality rate has always been the highest with the elderly which is what brings the national average up to 2.2%. When it comes to the youngest age groups (age 0-19) the case fatality rate doesn't even register as 0.0% in most countries...

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-c...covid-19-by-age

I've heard one estimate that Covid-19 is about 10 times less deadly for children than the flu and there are a lot of stats to give merit to that claim. This is why a lot of people want schools to reopen.

Another good way to verify that Covid-19 is far less lethal now than it's ever been is to consider that the U.S. now has well over twice as many Covid-19 cases than we've had at any other time, yet despite this, the amount of deaths from Covid-19 per day is far less than it was when Covid-19 cases first spiked in the U.S....

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases
https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-daily-deaths

Lastly, A LOT of people who have Covid-19 are asymptomatic and therefore don't get tested because they're not sick. So given that the case fatality rate doesn't factor in those who haven't been tested, the true Covid-19 death rate would be much lower than 2.2%. Covid-19 is overall more deadly than the flu, primarily due to how it impacts the elderly and those who have certain severe illnesses. So here's my personal opinion on what we should do from here. I think we should limit access to businesses that deal with the elderly. For example, I don't think anybody should be able to visit a nursing home without getting tested. Across the board, I believe all other businesses should be taking precautions but I don't believe that schools should be treated the same as nursing homes. A one sized fits all solution can really do unintentional harm for many businesses and this is has become very personal for a lot people. I think it's easy to talk about our safety being more important than the economy while forgetting the impacts that lockdowns have had on the publics emotional and physical wellbeing. I've believed for a long time, that we should be balanced in our approach on this.

Perhaps I'm an optimist but with the fatality rate of Covid-19 continuously dropping and a vaccine that's nearly ready to be distributed, I don't think our government will be able to justify Covid-19 lockdowns much longer. The next time we see a major dip in Covid-19 cases, I think that most of the panicking will be behind us, but we'll see. All I'll say on politics is that it wouldn't look good for an incoming administration, (likely Joe Biden), to have a struggling economy so I suspect that the tone of the media is going to change in the months to come. I could be wrong, but either way, I think we're on the verge of things changing dramatically. Just as with Aids and the Flu, early on these diseases were extremely deadly but as our treatments got better, the fatality rate dropped so I'm hoping people can start to see some light at the end of the tunnel on this.

This post has been edited by net2007: Nov 19 2020, 05:12 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 29 2020, 01:58 PM
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I agree with just about all of that, Net.
Read yesterday that in Japan in the past month suicides have taken more lives than Covid in has in the past year.

The ROK has been the quintessential example for "success". I wouldn't like to see the draconian level of privacy infringement and liberty restrictions on movement they have over there.
Yet even so, at the moment they are experiencing a covid spike as high as when they were ground zero for second-worst number of covid cases in the world.

One of our sons is going through a particularly rough time.
He was able to see a therapist at the university twice in a couple of months. They were so backed up with people needing help.
Now he is home. Our health insurance is very good but the soonest available appointment is in February. Because, again, so many people need therapy right now.
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Trouble
post Dec 1 2020, 11:10 PM
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What are your thoughts on the lockdown?

So far I know a grand total of one person who has contracted it. She had a miserable two weeks but did not go to the hospital. While I contracted pneumonia and had breathing problems for the better part of eight months at the exact time the first wave came I tested negative. Go figure. However I know people who know people so that would be one division removed from the virus. Maybe it is the same elsewhere?

The lockdown has been handled differently in the West than in the East. At least that is what my eyes keep telling me. Will time will prove the Asian response to be the better one? Maybe.
I can only speculate but has anyone noticed the lockdowns are more haphazard, and more selectively enforced leading to different outcomes? Whether province to province, or state to state I cannot help but wonder if the virus presented a death blow to globalism. This stop/start oscillation action seems the perfect way to break American health insurance.

Help me out here but isn't work a precondition of health insurance? Well under Covid there are essential businesses (including liquor stores for some odd reason) that can remain open and there are ones that cannot. So what happens to all the people who need to use health insurance to respond to the virus but can't due to layoffs?

Extrapolating further does a country that relies heavily on the free movement and peoples and goods become overly dependent on Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate (FIRE) as Michael Hudson refers to it have a back up plan? Is this model more susceptible to disruption than a more industrialized country?

If my statement above has any truth in it then for how long can a society based around and built on movement survive a good and proper lockdown? I bet the Feds understand the costly nature and have left delegation on the state/provincial level for precisely that reason. That can't handle the blame. And now we all suffer because we have enacted half measures rather than full and achieved little control of the virus.

Here is the result of half measures. We have great incentive to push questionable vaccines to market (again in a rather haphazard fashion, sans sufficient testing) which will create additional problems. Combine with the ever changing attitudes on dissent, I fully expect to called a flat-earther in '21 not so much for rejecting a vaccine with the new mRNA technology, but for demanding a more conventional one in its place. Travel could be fun or should I say "interesting".
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Eeyore
post Dec 2 2020, 01:41 AM
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I would like good policies that work on reducing deaths from Covid.

I want the best information to be acted upon.

I think in general we should follow the European model from the fall and open schools and restrict bars, restaurants, and gyms.

I want us to aim at the best economic outcome for this pandemic. IF it were true that a complete 14 day lockdown would reduce Covid cases by 95%, would that be a net boon or bust for the economy?

I would hope love a more productive national conversation about how best to handle the pandemic.


As for COVID, I do not know personally someone who has died from COVID, but I am pretty sure I had it at the very beginning.

I have two colleagues that lost immediate family members to covid. (A mother and a brother) I have a student whose uncle passed away from Covid. So I am definitely not Covid-skeptical.

I think there is a sweet-spot that has a good covid policy and a relatively light amount of restrictions. I just think we are at an epically dysfunctional moment in the history of this republic. In short we are in our own way at a very bad time.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Dec 15 2020, 03:25 AM
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Colorado has closed all restaurants (except for outdoor dining. Its far below freezing so good luck with that).
I went to the ski slopes at Breckinridge (one needs an appointment ahead of time now).
They have helpfully provided outdoor porto-potties. Access to indoor plumbing would be unsanitary, apparently.
Perhaps soon well all be wearing diapers like the Chinese flight attendants.

Not only will this boost the adult diaper industry but there are other tangentially related companies that will benefit.
I should invest in anti-fungal futures. And start hoarding vagisil creams.
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Eeyore
post Dec 15 2020, 05:01 PM
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Mrs Pigpen is has been a long time. I am much more interested in reconnecting and perhaps reviving a little camaraderie here than mixing up with each other in arguments. So I hope my posts will be taking that way.

In regards to Covid, I am presently under quarantine as an individual following medical advice. Two of my children are at my house isolating after testing positive and I went to their house to stay with my ex for the time period. Then I fly out to Phoenix to drive my daughter back to Nashville.

I am an advocate of trying to follow science and to have a good public exchange about how to hasten the end of Covid. It seems like you either think we should leave Covid alone and let it run its course, or you feel like governments are over reaching and applying illogical policy.

I lean toward heavy use of the government sometimes. For example, if the science said that if we effectively quarantined as a nation for 14 days and we could reduce active infections by 95% I would like to do it. I think it could be a win win. Economically and in terms of public health.

But our more likely policy I think should be more fluid and should be done better. I think the impact of children has been disproportionate to their risk. I am so sorry your son is struggling with that side of it. My school has met in person (with a zoom option) since day one. We still have not had on documented case of in school transmission. I am sure that is partly lucky, but the benefit to the students I think has been tremendous.

In Phoenix, my teacher friends have largely been zooming, and the administrators bemoan the high depression and child abuse numbers.

I believe Europe has pushed toward opening schools and the science supports it in many cases. got to go to class! Great to see you here!
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Dec 15 2020, 05:30 PM
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Hey Eeyore!
Always great to read your thoughts, even when we disagree. smile.gif
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Dec 15 2020, 01:01 PM) *
In regards to Covid, I am presently under quarantine as an individual following medical advice. Two of my children are at my house isolating after testing positive and I went to their house to stay with my ex for the time period. Then I fly out to Phoenix to drive my daughter back to Nashville.

Ugh. I am so sorry. On the bright side, if they test positive and don't have symptoms they should be relatively safe! Hopefully you tested also?

QUOTE
I am an advocate of trying to follow science and to have a good public exchange about how to hasten the end of Covid. It seems like you either think we should leave Covid alone and let it run its course, or you feel like governments are over reaching and applying illogical policy.


Yes, I think the policy out here is illogical. The mall was absolutely packed on black Friday, for example, but the food court is closed. I also have very very big doubts about mask wearing in general as a public health policy. Because in practice very few people (if anyone) is actually wearing a clean mask. They are wearing them repeatedly in dirty environments and placing them back on their faces. So, would perfect use work? Yes. But no one is doing that. So we're left with the cost/benefit analysis not of mask wearing, but mask wearing under real life conditions.
I think the way they are being worn is actually more likely to make people ill (and covid isn't the only germ in town, just the popular girl at the moment).
I think masks are more about giving people a sense of control than actual science.
I've worked in many isolation rooms and had to gown up (though not recently, haven't worked at any medical facilities since covid hit).
One of the biggest concerns for PPE is taking off one's equipment after visiting the patient. Taking off the mask in particular is the most "dangerous" time for potentially contracting whatever disease the patient has. Put this in context of current times when we're all wearing fomites on our faces.
Just sayin.

QUOTE
I lean toward heavy use of the government sometimes. For example, if the science said that if we effectively quarantined as a nation for 14 days and we could reduce active infections by 95% I would like to do it. I think it could be a win win. Economically and in terms of public health.


If it were likely to stay at 95 percent, I'd agree wholeheartedly.
I don't think the evidence points to that being the case.
Even countries with some pretty draconian restrictions have seen their covid cases soar.
The ROK is up to 1000 cases per day now, higher than ever...and they have been cited as the ones to emulate.

Remember that Naval Captain who was removed from duty for taking care of his sailors? A lot of people criticized him for going to Vietnam, but at the time they went (a scheduled trip to commemorate an important anniversary) they did not have a single documented active case of covid in the entire country.

Honestly, I don't know the answer...maybe vaccines (though that new mRNA vaccine scares me, candidly).
Herd immunity (IMO) seems like a better option as far as cost to gains. Elderly/immunocompromised will need to take extreme precautions in this environment.
Others who are unlikely to be negative impacted should be able to go about their day to day. It has been almost a year.
I know I'm not the only person who is weary.
Honestly, we've been impacted far less than most, with the exception of our son's mental health (which is a big deal with our family, history on both sides, unfortunately).
We're actually very blessed and fortunate by comparison to most people, and especially business owners.
I feel terribly for them. Our little mountain town has lost a lot of small businesses.

QUOTE
But our more likely policy I think should be more fluid and should be done better. I think the impact of children has been disproportionate to their risk. I am so sorry your son is struggling with that side of it. My school has met in person (with a zoom option) since day one. We still have not had on documented case of in school transmission. I am sure that is partly lucky, but the benefit to the students I think has been tremendous.


Thank you. ((hugs))

QUOTE
I believe Europe has pushed toward opening schools and the science supports it in many cases. got to go to class! Great to see you here!


Hope you have a great day, Eeyore.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Dec 15 2020, 05:30 PM
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net2007
post Dec 16 2020, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Nov 29 2020, 08:58 AM) *
I agree with just about all of that, Net.
Read yesterday that in Japan in the past month suicides have taken more lives than Covid in has in the past year.

The ROK has been the quintessential example for "success". I wouldn't like to see the draconian level of privacy infringement and liberty restrictions on movement they have over there.
Yet even so, at the moment they are experiencing a covid spike as high as when they were ground zero for second-worst number of covid cases in the world.

One of our sons is going through a particularly rough time.
He was able to see a therapist at the university twice in a couple of months. They were so backed up with people needing help.
Now he is home. Our health insurance is very good but the soonest available appointment is in February. Because, again, so many people need therapy right now.


I hear you, the data is a jumbled mess if you're trying to determine how beneficial lockdowns and other extreme measures have been. Some states and countries with fewer restrictions have fared better than expected, while other areas with heavy restrictions have been hit particularly hard. I wouldn't go as far as to say that locking certain areas down has done nothing to slow the spread of Covid-19, I'm sure it's helped on some level but at what cost? Long-term lockdowns have guaranteed negative consequences yet they're not guaranteed to keep case numbers low.

Unless we were to literally militarize America and drop food from planes, this virus will spread until it runs its course. I think part of the problem is that Covid-19 spreads in small enclosed areas very easily. Let's say that someone is careful, keeps mostly to themselves, and does their grocery shopping late when it isn't crowded. Over the span of a year, it's still very possible that they'd contract covid-19. At that point, it'd be even more possible that they'd go on to spread it to anyone who lives or works with them because it's hard to avoid being in close proximity with family and co-workers.

I saw a statistic a while ago that showed that a substantial chunk of Covid-19 cases spread at home or at work. It seems obvious why that would be, apart from touching many of the same surfaces, we're breathing the same air. Similar to how smoking outside is less dangerous to others than doing it in a car with friends while having all of the windows rolled up. Smoke, just like airborne viruses both tend to linger in confined spaces that are lacking in air circulation.

Looks like I'm going to find out how well that idea holds up here soon, my girlfriend Lizzy contracted Covid sometime late last week, probably at work. She's both pregnant and symptomatic so we're trying to keep the fever down for both her and the baby. She wasn't around anybody who was sick other than a co-worker who said they had a sinus infection. Pregnancy can weaken the immune system so she has it rough right now. She's not in a position where the situation is dire but she's run a fever as high as 102 which isn't supposed to be good for unborn babies. Babies and children very rarely have symptoms from Covid-19 but this is different because the health of an unborn baby is dependant on the mother.

The doctors at the ER were unwilling to give her anything but Tylenol because apparently some of the Covid-19 treatments aren't good to take while pregnant, at least according to them. I think they could have done better and at least given her zinc or something else that poses a lower risk to pregnant women.

I probably have Covid-19 as well because Lizzy and I are living in a small camper until the house is finished. I get my test results back tomorrow to know for sure but so far I can't say I have any symptoms. Maybe a little itchiness in the back of the throat but it's barely noticeable and could be nothing.

QUOTE
One of our sons is going through a particularly rough time.
He was able to see a therapist at the university twice in a couple of months. They were so backed up with people needing help.
Now he is home. Our health insurance is very good but the soonest available appointment is in February. Because, again, so many people need therapy right now.


I can relate, I mentioned in my last reply that therapy services have reduced access or gone virtual, in part, because I've gone to therapy off and on since I was a teenager. The groups I'm attending now are virtual and a little bit like Skype apart from the fact that the therapist has control over the session. I'm hoping your son is able to get more frequent sessions. Therapy can help, opening up to strangers isn't easy, especially at first but it's worth it if you find the right practice and therapist. I've probably learned more about people through various therapy sessions and groups than I ever did by researching politics.

This post has been edited by net2007: Dec 16 2020, 08:38 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Dec 16 2020, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE(net2007 @ Dec 16 2020, 04:32 AM) *
Looks like I'm going to find out how well that idea holds up here soon, my girlfriend Lizzy contracted Covid sometime late last week, probably at work. She's both pregnant and symptomatic so we're trying to keep the fever down for both her and the baby. She wasn't around anybody who was sick other than a co-worker who said they had a sinus infection. Pregnancy can weaken the immune system so she has it rough right now. She's not in a position where the situation is dire but she's run a fever as high as 102 which isn't supposed to be good for unborn babies. Babies and children very rarely have symptoms from Covid-19 but this is different because the health of an unborn baby is dependant on the mother.

The doctors at the ER were unwilling to give her anything but Tylenol because apparently some of the Covid-19 treatments aren't good to take while pregnant, at least according to them. I think they could have done better and at least given her zinc or something else that poses a lower risk to pregnant women.


Oh, man. I am so sorry, Net. That sucks!
Can anyone get her (and you) some zinc lozenges and Vitamin D? That might help. How awful.
Typically I would take motrin for the fever (tylenol rarely helps) but they're saying that lowers amniotic fluid levels now.

QUOTE
I can relate, I mentioned in my last reply that therapy services have reduced access or gone virtual, in part, because I've gone to therapy off and on since I was a teenager. The groups I'm attending now are virtual and a little bit like Skype apart from the fact that the therapist has control over the session. I'm hoping your son is able to get more frequent sessions. Therapy can help, opening up to strangers isn't easy, especially at first but it's worth it if you find the right practice and therapist. I've probably learned more about people through various therapy sessions and groups than I ever did by researching politics.


We got an appointment for him on the 30th. It will be virtual too, I wish he could at least go in for the first session. Just seems a little impersonal meeting for the first time for therapy on video chat. I sure hope it helps. Read a couple of days ago that a whole quarter of kids (to me they are kids) between 18 and 24 have seriously contemplated suicide this year (after covid hit). An incredibly high number.

Edited to add:
Just thinking further, for Lizzy, she might already know this but I hope she is keeping well hydrated with that fever. Also, something my sister in law just made me aware of and I'd forgotten, covid can make you susceptible to DVTs (blood clots in the legs) that are really dangerous...and pregnancy is a risk in itself. She should try to get up and walk many times throughout the day, as much as she can to prevent them. My sister in law's brother had the covid and 3 DVTs. That would be awful for poor Lizzy. I know with her fever and pregnancy she's probably wiped out with fatigue, but it's important to move around often, even if only for a few minutes at a time to keep that circulation going.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Dec 17 2020, 12:34 AM
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entspeak
post Dec 17 2020, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 24 2020, 10:30 AM) *
What are your thoughts on the lockdown? This is casual, no debate.

My thoughts are that the lockdowns work where they are needed. I say this as someone who lives in a city... a city... where, at this point, over 35k people have died of COVID since the spring... almost 200 in the square mile around my apartment. Ive been fortunate enough to be able to work from home and, seeing the writing on the wall, started doing so almost two weeks before the official shutdown.

But, with a lockdown we went from thousands hospitalized daily in April/May to hitting zero for a bit in June. That is due to the lockdown. COVID was out of control here and it was necessary. And thats when there should be lockdowns. Did every state need to lockdown? No. Did they need to prepare and take minor steps like social distancing and masks? Prepare for the inevitable spread to less densely populated areas? Yes.

I think its hard for people to get their head around the lag. I hear many people talk and compare the deaths today to the new cases today - when these new deaths are from cases reported a month ago. So, if you look at where we were with daily cases a month ago (~160k/day), and where we are now in terms of daily cases (over 200k/day), you can see its going to get worse before it gets better. More lockdowns May be needed where its getting out of control.
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net2007
post Dec 18 2020, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Dec 16 2020, 06:43 PM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Dec 16 2020, 04:32 AM) *
Looks like I'm going to find out how well that idea holds up here soon, my girlfriend Lizzy contracted Covid sometime late last week, probably at work. She's both pregnant and symptomatic so we're trying to keep the fever down for both her and the baby. She wasn't around anybody who was sick other than a co-worker who said they had a sinus infection. Pregnancy can weaken the immune system so she has it rough right now. She's not in a position where the situation is dire but she's run a fever as high as 102 which isn't supposed to be good for unborn babies. Babies and children very rarely have symptoms from Covid-19 but this is different because the health of an unborn baby is dependant on the mother.

The doctors at the ER were unwilling to give her anything but Tylenol because apparently some of the Covid-19 treatments aren't good to take while pregnant, at least according to them. I think they could have done better and at least given her zinc or something else that poses a lower risk to pregnant women.


Oh, man. I am so sorry, Net. That sucks!
Can anyone get her (and you) some zinc lozenges and Vitamin D? That might help. How awful.
Typically I would take motrin for the fever (tylenol rarely helps) but they're saying that lowers amniotic fluid levels now.

......

Edited to add:
Just thinking further, for Lizzy, she might already know this but I hope she is keeping well hydrated with that fever. Also, something my sister in law just made me aware of and I'd forgotten, covid can make you susceptible to DVTs (blood clots in the legs) that are really dangerous...and pregnancy is a risk in itself. She should try to get up and walk many times throughout the day, as much as she can to prevent them. My sister in law's brother had the covid and 3 DVTs. That would be awful for poor Lizzy. I know with her fever and pregnancy she's probably wiped out with fatigue, but it's important to move around often, even if only for a few minutes at a time to keep that circulation going.


Thanks for that, we appreciate the kind gestures very much.

Lizzy says Motrin works better for her as well but like you're saying, doctors believe it's not good for pregnant women, go figure. We've got some zinc lozenges she's taking, she takes her prenatals daily for other vitamins, and thankfully she already had healthy habits like drinking a lot of water so those things are covered. We also got one of those mist humidifiers that's supposed to help some with breathing and keep the virus from spreading as easily.

I'm hoping that all of that is doing something, she seems to have spurts where she feels better but then goes back to struggling, especially at night when she's trying to sleep.

I mentioned what you said about DVT's to Lizzy. They run in her family unfortunately. Perhaps some easy walks around here might help, we've been isolated in the camper for days now. Good news is that we're in the country in Tennessee on a 3 acre piece of property so we don't have to risk spreading Covid if we walk here.

QUOTE
We got an appointment for him on the 30th. It will be virtual too, I wish he could at least go in for the first session. Just seems a little impersonal meeting for the first time for therapy on video chat. I sure hope it helps. Read a couple of days ago that a whole quarter of kids (to me they are kids) between 18 and 24 have seriously contemplated suicide this year (after covid hit). An incredibly high number.


Good to hear there's an appointment available. It is an adjustment doing virtual sessions for sure, they're not preferable but can still do a lot to help depending on your sons situation. I probably needed the most help when I was in the age group that you're mentioning so I can't imagine how it is for late teens who are having trouble now. Lockdowns have a way of encouraging isolation, I think that's one of the contributing factors to the spikes in suicide rates.

I'm still optimistic that things are going to change for the better soon though. For me it's all about the fatality rate of Covid-19 plummeting worldwide. It's one of the most important statistics that's rarely mentioned. When I checked the case fatality rate in October, it was at 2.7%; I mentioned in my first reply in this thread that the case fatality rate had dropped to 2.2% and that was on November 18th. The case fatality rate right now in the U.S. has dropped down to 1.8%....

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data...pickerSort=desc

With that number continuously dropping and a vaccine that's in the early stages of distribution my gut instinct is that we'll be done with lockdowns sometime early next year. Likely not too long after case numbers plummet again. At the moment the number of cases in the U.S. appears to be plateauing...

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases

However it's hard to predict this particular statistic and many media outlets seem determined to put a disproportionate amount of focus on case numbers when compared to fatality rates, so we'll see what happens. Some of this will depend on how the media and politicians frame this pandemic moving forward. I just think it's going to get increasingly difficult to justify lockdowns if Covid-19 becomes about as deadly as the flu.

I imagine that some people would view that as minimizing the risk that Covid-19 poses. Personally, It helps my brain to consider some of the positive developments as well, especially when things are hard.
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post Dec 23 2020, 02:12 PM
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Unfortunately, case-fatality is a tricky number because it relies on known cases. At the outset, known cases were limited to the very sick, because testing wasn’t readily available - so, the case-fatality rate was very high. As testing expanded, more cases were found, and the case-fatality rate goes down. Nor does case-fatality rate take into consideration the lag of about a month between getting sick and dying. So, today’s daily deaths are tied to the daily cases from about a month ago - which is why, as the site you linked to notes, CFR is not a good figure to use in an outbreak. But, even at 1.8% it is almost 20 times deadlier than the flu which has a case-fatality rate of less than .1%. But, if we account for lag, the CFR may be significantly higher.

Now, some may see this as pessimistic, but it’s more realistic. Comparisons to the flu are what has led to this getting out of hand... leading to more lockdowns. It didn’t have to get this bad, and if more people had taken it seriously, it likely wouldn’t have gotten this bad.

On the positive side, we have learned to better treat the illness, so... definitely, there are fewer people dying once treated. But treatment is only helpful if you can get it, and - as many states are now learning - there are only so many hospital workers and beds.

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droop224
post Dec 24 2020, 04:32 PM
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Net,

Sorry about your lady, hoping everything is and will continue to be alright.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've known so many people that have got this virus I can't count. I know a family friend that was a warm spirit, she died in April. I got a homie, not too close, more my brother friend than mine he and his mom were hospitalized. He made it, she didn't. A few coworkers who parents died from it. A coworker recently retired, recently passed, and there is a rumor it was COVID, but I didn't know that guy. I've seen some people in their 40's with some serious complications, but no younger than that.

Part of that is well... I'm Black. People from minority communities, especially the Black community are going to be hit extra hard. Just an unholy circle of bad circumstances that made us extra vulnerable like poverty, bad diets, bad health care, low wage public jobs. Plus there was some silly belief early on likely because the virus thrives more in colder weather, that this disease did not affect Blacks. Something I heard several times in you circle of friends that are Black... The logic of "How many Black people you heard getting this *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***... It all in Europe!!" By the time March ended, never heard that again!! w00t.gif

That being said Blacks being hit hard early let us quickly start listening to doctors and and experts and masking up, social distancing, and taking it seriously. I've barely seen my Dad. I got him the Amazon Echo and me one too. But thinking about Entspeak and New York. I was in New York on business in the last week of February or first week of March. I can't remember. But i remember going to Joe's Pizza in Manhattan and just thinking to myself man "if that COVID comes through here it going to be bad based on how much traffic was coming through that one spot.

I know my son missed his graduation and Prom due to CoViD. I know different levels of loss have to be occurring to different families. But in many ways when you see the death I feel embarrassed to care about important events.. and they are important to me.. but they aren't worth cost paid by the unlucky. Not to me at least.

In other CoVid news... If i were to listen to many of my Conservative friends we shouldn't be hearing about COVID
deaths anymore. They told me this would all be over once the election was over. Guess not! mrsparkle.gif w00t.gif
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post Dec 28 2020, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ Dec 23 2020, 09:12 AM) *
Unfortunately, case-fatality is a tricky number because it relies on known cases. At the outset, known cases were limited to the very sick, because testing wasn⾢t readily available - so, the case-fatality rate was very high. As testing expanded, more cases were found, and the case-fatality rate goes down. Nor does case-fatality rate take into consideration the lag of about a month between getting sick and dying. So, today⾢s daily deaths are tied to the daily cases from about a month ago - which is why, as the site you linked to notes, CFR is not a good figure to use in an outbreak. But, even at 1.8% it is almost 20 times deadlier than the flu which has a case-fatality rate of less than .1%. But, if we account for lag, the CFR may be significantly higher.
Now, some may see this as pessimistic, but it€s more realistic. Comparisons to the flu are what has led to this getting out of hand... leading to more lockdowns. It didnt have to get this bad, and if more people had taken it seriously, it likely wouldnžt have gotten this bad.
On the positive side, we have learned to better treat the illness, so... definitely, there are fewer people dying once treated. But treatment is only helpful if you can get it, and - as many states are now learning - there are only so many hospital workers and beds.


I hear your points. I'd like to consider what you said here...

QUOTE
"Unfortunately, case-fatality is a tricky number because it relies on known cases."


and here...

QUOTE
"as the site you linked to notes, CFR is not a good figure to use in an outbreak."


from another angle though.

I think the link I shared is right by suggesting that the case fatality rate doesn't accurately reflect the true death rate of Covid-19 but that's true because the actual death rate is much lower than the CFR. I use the case fatality rate because there's less guesswork involved for those who are logging it. In other words, either someone has Covid or they don't so logging the CFR doesn't require an estimation of how many people have Covid but don't get tested.

I also think you make a fair point by suggesting that the increase in people getting tested would cause the CFR to drop but again I think that some important context to that is the fact that it's revealing how Covid is, on average, less deadly than how some have portrayed it. It's clear that the kinds of people who weren't getting tested earlier on were far more likely to have mild or no symptoms which makes sense because being sick would be the primary reason a lot of people would go get tested. That dynamic hasn't changed today but it was especially true early on when not many test were available. To be clear, none of this is to suggest that Covid-19 isn't dangerous, I just want an accurate view of the situation.

Apart from what you're saying about the increase in test availability causing the CFR to drop, I've also always been a big believer that two or more things can be true at once. I remember a few years back when I was debating media bias, someone made the argument that the media isn't motivated by bias but to demonstrate that, they made the argument that the media was actually motivated by money. My immediate thought on that was, why couldn't the media be motivated by both bias and money?

I don't think you're giving a false binary choice in this case. You were suggesting here that...

QUOTE
"On the positive side, we have learned to better treat the illness, so... definitely, there are fewer people dying once treated."


I think that's very important to specify because it's the truth. The way I look at the CFR is that it's going down on the basis of both an increase in test availability and due to the virus killing a smaller percentage of people who get infected as time passes. I believe the latter because there's a lot of corroborating evidence that the death rate has dropped significantly.

In conjunction with the CFR, I shared these two links early on...

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases
https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-daily-deaths

To break this down, the first link demonstrates that at the worst of the first wave in the U.S. we had about 34 thousand new cases daily. It also demonstrates that at the worst of this current peak we had about 240 thousand new cases daily. 34 goes into 240 about 7 times. Keep that number in mind when looking at the second link. During the first wave, the highest amount of deaths we had in a single day was 2,752 and during this latest wave the on the worst day in the U.S. we saw 3,448 deaths. 2,752 doesn't even go into 3,448 twice.

Most people agree that one death is too many but this is exactly why I want to see the numbers improving as much as they can. These statistics demonstrate that the number of new cases in the U.S. is currently about seven times higher than the numbers we saw during the first peak, yet despite that, the number of new deaths daily is barely higher than it was during that same first peak. So if the virus was still killing the same percentage of infected people as it was early on, then we'd currently see roughly seven times the amount of new deaths daily as we did during the first peak. At a minimum, the two sets of numbers would be fairly consistent in how they increased. I'm sure that the lag in deaths after infection affects my read on these numbers somewhat but what I'm saying holds up regardless of what week we draw comparisons to. So at no point has the number of daily deaths increased anywhere near where it would have to if the virus still caused the same percentage of deaths amongst those who contract it.

Looking at the links above, it would also follow that a significant portion of the decline in the CFR is due to a smaller percentage of people dying. My personal opinion is that the most realistic take on Covid-19 is one where we're willing to review data, regardless of its implications. Rising Covid-19 case numbers and death totals have been the most disturbing statistics to cover. However, from what I've seen there has been a disproportionate amount of focus on those kinds of statistics when compared to periods when case numbers are dropping or when compared to statistics that show a spike in suicide rates. The fatality rate also appears to get far less attention so for me, that begs the question about why we're seeing the inconsistency by some news outlets.

We should want things to get better and for the virus to do less damage as time passes. I think that's fair as long as we're not throwing caution into the wind or ignoring information that should concern us. An acknowledgment of some positive news doesn't require rejecting what this virus has done to millions of people worldwide or vice versa despite our politicians and media pundits being so short-sighted.

As far as comparisons to the flu are concerned, I think it depends on what is being said. For example, pointing out that as our treatments for the flu got better, it caused the fatality rate to plummet and then saying that's similar to what's happening with Covid-19, is one thing. Claiming that we shouldn't be too concerned about Covid-19 because it's really no different than the flu, is something else entirely. There have undoubtedly been people who have downplayed the significance of this virus or who haven't done anything to take precautions.

For example, the local Walmart here used to have arrows that pointed in the direction that customers should walk down every aisle. They were doing that so that customers wouldn't keep crossing paths on narrow aisles where it'd be impossible to keep 6ft apart. I thought that made sense but perhaps others didn't because a good chunk of customers weren't following that guideline. Many people aren't going to take Covid-19 very seriously unfortunately, I just don't think taking Covid seriously requires taking the worst possible outlook on it, not that you're suggesting that. I just feel there's a balanced perspective that makes the most sense. One where we're doing what we can to mitigate the impact and spread Covid-19, without forgetting about other problems.

I view all-inclusive and widespread lockdowns as similar to driving a nail into sheetrock with a sledgehammer while standing on a wobbly ladder. You may end up getting the nail in but you're very likely to break your wall or bust your rear end in the process. A more targeted approach makes better sense, at least in my opinion.

Droop

QUOTE
Net,

Sorry about your lady, hoping everything is and will continue to be alright.


I appreciate that. Lizzy is much better, she had a very acute case of Covid and ended up catching phenomena. She nearly passed out the last time we took her to the hospital so we worried a lot. Personally, I'm doing okay so far physically. I did end up testing positive but more than anything it's a nuisance in my case. I can't taste anything, I'm tired a lot, and have a mild cough but if I follow what the norm is for my age, weight, and health then I should be fine. Some haven't been so lucky though....


QUOTE
I've known so many people that have got this virus I can't count. I know a family friend that was a warm spirit, she died in April. I got a homie, not too close, more my brother friend than mine he and his mom were hospitalized. He made it, she didn't. A few coworkers who parents died from it. A coworker recently retired, recently passed, and there is a rumor it was COVID, but I didn't know that guy. I've seen some people in their 40's with some serious complications, but no younger than that.

Part of that is well... I'm Black. People from minority communities, especially the Black community are going to be hit extra hard. Just an unholy circle of bad circumstances that made us extra vulnerable like poverty, bad diets, bad health care, low wage public jobs. Plus there was some silly belief early on likely because the virus thrives more in colder weather, that this disease did not affect Blacks. Something I heard several times in you circle of friends that are Black... The logic of "How many Black people you heard getting this *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***... It all in Europe!!" By the time March ended, never heard that again!! w00t.gif

That being said Blacks being hit hard early let us quickly start listening to doctors and and experts and masking up, social distancing, and taking it seriously. I've barely seen my Dad. I got him the Amazon Echo and me one too. But thinking about Entspeak and New York. I was in New York on business in the last week of February or first week of March. I can't remember. But i remember going to Joe's Pizza in Manhattan and just thinking to myself man "if that COVID comes through here it going to be bad based on how much traffic was coming through that one spot.

I know my son missed his graduation and Prom due to CoViD. I knolw different levels of loss have to be occurring to different families. But in many ways when you see the death I feel embarrassed to care about important events.. and they are important to me.. but they aren't worth cost paid by the unlucky. Not to me at least.


Yea, I was looking at that. I can't imagine Covid has been easy for those who are in one of the demographics that's getting hit hard. Sorry you had to go through all of that. I don't know if this is my place or not but I do think it's okay to care about things that are important to you, I'd imagine events like your sons graduation especially. That's selfless of you to think the way you are, so maybe it's just that a lot of things are disappointing to me in 2020. The loss of life due to Covid, the loss of life due to the spikes in suicide rates, the jobs lost, the impact on our livelihoods, etc. etc. Perhaps not every loss is going to be equivalent when people have died but it's still all crap as far as I'm concerned. It's been my position that people still need to be able to live their lives. I'm not suggesting that things need to be exactly the same as before at this point but I don't think our lives should be dominated by a virus either.

Benjamin Franklin once said...

QUOTE
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"


As with many things that are said, I think that this quote is an oversimplification. The act of sacrifice can be very powerful but I also believe it's important to consider what's being sacrificed and for what cause. I don't trust our government and institutions on the level that I did 15 years ago, in fact I don't trust them to the degree I did last year. You've probably gathered that I favor the Republican party but they do play their fair share of games so trust doesn't come easily for me with Republican politicians either. In my mind, they're somewhat better than the opposition who I feel are reverting back to their authoritarian roots.

There's a lot of irony in the fact that Democrat voters often feel the same way about the Republican party but I will say this. I think that those who are causing the most problems are those who are in positions of power and influence. I probably sound like a broken record with that by now but Democrat voters in the general public are a mixed bag without question. I just sometimes wish that another perspective could be shared every time a media pundit or politician gives one side of the story.

QUOTE
In other CoVid news... If i were to listen to many of my Conservative friends we shouldn't be hearing about COVID
deaths anymore. They told me this would all be over once the election was over. Guess not! mrsparkle.gif w00t.gif


Early on, it was hard to know how bad things would get and for how long so I reserved judgment on what I thought the duration of this ordeal would be until recently. I think it's still impossible to say whether or not the virus itself will go away but I do think we're almost through with the lockdowns. That's a data-driven opinion mostly although I think that politics could play a role as well. I won't get into the latter but either the lethality of Covid-19 has been dropping for nearly a year now, without exception, or it's that we've gotten a lot better at treating it. Perhaps it's both, I'm not entirely sure but whatever the primary driver behind it is, far less people who catch Covid are dying today. In fact, this number is going down globally so it gives me reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Unlike my position on government and media corruption, I sure as hell hope that I'm right on this one. Making a prediction always leaves for the opportunity that something could change, I'd just hope it wouldn't be for the worse in this case if that happens. We could do without things taking a turn south again somehow with Covid-19.

This post has been edited by net2007: Dec 28 2020, 09:59 AM
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droop224
post Dec 28 2020, 02:28 PM
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"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" As I've debated conservatives for so many years I've come to realize quotes like these are horrible. Simply put, we might all have the general understanding of liberty, but how it works and should be applied varies to such a degree... its useless. Kind of like 9/11, "never forget" that many of our founding fathers that fought for liberty were slave owners, who created a slaver society.

I saw a woman in the grocery store the other day with a homemade (I think) face covering. It was a design pattern, but where the cheek was there was a large white oval. Written in sharpie was "This is not what freedom looks like!!". My immediate reaction was a dismissive shake of my head (to myself) as I thought "Trumper." I know my dismissiveness is wrong, but its not like i was going to debate a stranger in the grocery store anyway! That's why I have you all!!

When this woman drove on the road to get to the grocery store did she think... wow we have speed limits, this is not what freedom looks like. When she got into the grocery parking lot and had to put her car in between white lines did she think... this isn't what freedom looks like? There are societal control all around this woman from legal ones like seat belt laws to speed limits, to customary laws like - stand in line to pay for your groceries- Because she has normalized these other controls, they do not appear to impinge on her freedom. But something so small as asking her to wear a face covering, during a deadly pandemic has cause her to feel as though her liberty is in jeopardy.

I'm sorry that the pandemic is increasing alcoholism, suicide rates, depression, joblessness, etc. Part of that is the fundamental flaw of our societal beliefs that we are willing to allow profiteering over the health of our society. The weaknesses of our society will be more pronounced during hard times. I'm not sure in real terms what the conservative minded individual wants. I've asked straight out do you want us to just spread the disease as much as possible and "if you die you die". I've yet to hear many of them say "yea!!".

So what is it conservative want?? What does freedom look like in a pandemic?
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net2007
post Jan 5 2021, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Dec 28 2020, 09:28 AM) *
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" As I've debated conservatives for so many years I've come to realize quotes like these are horrible. Simply put, we might all have the general understanding of liberty, but how it works and should be applied varies to such a degree... its useless. Kind of like 9/11, "never forget" that many of our founding fathers that fought for liberty were slave owners, who created a slaver society."


If I'm reading you right, you don't like quotes like those because they're very absolute. I hear where you're coming from. In my mind, catchphrases and quotes can become very hollow if there's an unwillingness to look a little deeper.

On this topic, I'm more on the end of favoring individual liberty rather than government control. Maybe 75/25 liberty and government respectively. As you're hinting at, laws that determine what our speed limits should be are sensible, we do need some form of structure. So, to your point, it really does come down to where each of us decides to draw that line. With that said, I think we're far past the point where we should be worried about government overreach so this is one area where the liberal comes out in the position I'm taking. Lastly, what you're mentioning about slavery I'd be open to talking about more, it's an important topic when discussing liberty. I'll send you a couple of paragraphs in a PM on whether or not I think America was created as a slaver society to keep this reply on topic. Additionally...

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...amp;p=100035891

The civil rights portion of the reply above goes over some detailed history and goes over one of the most common definitions of the word liberal. It's probably the most important and detailed reply I've written in one of our exchanges. A lot of that reply is about how topics like these relate to the Democrat and Republican parties but I'd be willing to expand some. I will say this, I don't believe in American exceptionalism. That's not to say that I don't think America has done a number of things well though, obviously, a lot of people decide to risk everything to move here. So in my view, where this country stands is very complicated but certainly worth discussing.


QUOTE
I saw a woman in the grocery store the other day with a homemade (I think) face covering. It was a design pattern, but where the cheek was there was a large white oval. Written in sharpie was "This is not what freedom looks like!!". My immediate reaction was a dismissive shake of my head (to myself) as I thought "Trumper." I know my dismissiveness is wrong, but its not like i was going to debate a stranger in the grocery store anyway! That's why I have you all!!

When this woman drove on the road to get to the grocery store did she think... wow we have speed limits, this is not what freedom looks like. When she got into the grocery parking lot and had to put her car in between white lines did she think... this isn't what freedom looks like? There are societal control all around this woman from legal ones like seat belt laws to speed limits, to customary laws like - stand in line to pay for your groceries- Because she has normalized these other controls, they do not appear to impinge on her freedom. But something so small as asking her to wear a face covering, during a deadly pandemic has cause her to feel as though her liberty is in jeopardy.


I think a lot of people don't like the idea of ever-expanding government authority. Naturally, that's very complicated in this case because we're dealing with a deadly virus. One of the problems for me is that politicians are often selective with the "science" and doctors that they're willing to listen to and tend to absorb what they feel fits their favored Covid policy stances. As for the doctors themselves, I'm very willing to follow recommendations but also love to consider second opinions because Doctors are human, they make mistakes and disagree with one another on a regular basis. On mask, the CDC changed their tone from what they were telling us early on in the pandemic. The flip-flopping didn't inspire confidence so my decision to wear masks came down to some common sense.

One of the primary concerns over mask-wearing was a fear that people would not wear them properly or touch their face too much when adjusting them. So the easy solution in my mind was to simply not do that, wear masks properly, and touch my face as little as possible. I've been using my hands for opening doors, handling money, etc. etc. so if I absolutely need to scratch my face or something like that, I use my shoulder or the inside of my arm away from my hand. Not a perfect solution but better than what some are doing.

I get the sense that the things people do make your eyes roll a bit from time to time. You've seen my writings here, would it surprise you if I said that I've seen numerous people who are advocating for lockdowns and restrictions, but who don't take social distancing or mask wearing seriously? We all have our stories, so I don't doubt you've seen your fair share of nonsense as well.

So, here's to hoping that 2021 will be much better. beer.gif

This post has been edited by net2007: Jan 5 2021, 05:55 AM
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