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> What If Europe Does Its Own Defense Pact?, Good, bad, neutral for USA?
AuthorMusician
post May 31 2017, 03:06 PM
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President Trump is back from his first international trip. One of the results has been talk of Europe not depending on the USA for defense. I take that as doing NATO without the USA having much of a role to play, if any at all.

It could also mean not having European allies at some point down the road.

Other outcomes are possible, so:

Why should President Trump be concerned about or happy with the idea of Europe supporting its own defense without the USA having much, if any, influence?

What would any of the possible outcomes mean to the USA, Europe, and/or the world?
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Hobbes
post Jun 7 2017, 03:40 PM
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These is a good topic, AM, I just haven't had time to reply to it. I will try to do so soon.
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Gray Seal
post Jun 7 2017, 04:10 PM
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Why should President Trump be concerned about or happy with the idea of Europe supporting its own defense without the USA having much, if any, influence?

You are asking about Trump and how it would affect him. Did you mean to have a broader consideration of citizens of the United States?

Citizens should be happy that the United States will be less involved with regional concerns in other countries. This will help each household as they are no longer saddled with the cost of policing for other countries.


What would any of the possible outcomes mean to the USA, Europe, and/or the world?

Greater regional control will be the result. This is good for those regions by getting the United States out of the way. Countries need to be sovereign. Interference is not in the anyone's best interest. Financial gain via the use of force is unethical.

Local control of police and military will result.
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 7 2017, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jun 7 2017, 12:10 PM) *
Why should President Trump be concerned about or happy with the idea of Europe supporting its own defense without the USA having much, if any, influence?

You are asking about Trump and how it would affect him.

No, I'm asking why he should be concerned about or happy with, which means someone other than Trump has to answer the question. That someone is you.

The only way the question could be about Trump's take alone is if he answers it himself, which is so unlikely on this forum that I'd lay good money on it never happening. But then . . . Twitter.

Another way to interpret the question is to assume Trump has the best interests of the country at heart, and the country consists of its citizens to a very large degree, so he'd have the interests of USA citizens at heart. I realize this isn't a sure thing in his case, and so the way I framed the question. It leaves open the idea that Trump only cares about himself, therefore making him a really bad choice for any government position. Business CEO is also an iffy thing, since he'd be expected to think of shareholders or other kinds of owners. In some kinds of business, customers and/or employees are also in the mix, along with vendors getting paid.

I see how a casual reading might cause some to conclude as you have, but explaining all this is pretty wordy. I'm not convinced that the question as framed is unclear, so I'm leaving it as is.

This post has been edited by AuthorMusician: Jun 7 2017, 09:20 PM
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Hobbes
post Jun 12 2017, 07:56 PM
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Why should President Trump be concerned about or happy with the idea of Europe supporting its own defense without the USA having much, if any, influence?

This is heading down the road quite a ways from the current situation, but still worthy of discussion. The 'influence' phrase you brought up is key. Currently, we pay a lot for Europe's defense (which is Trump's issue). One of the main benefits flowing back to us would be influence. Do we get what we pay for? A worthy topic of discussion.

What would any of the possible outcomes mean to the USA, Europe, and/or the world?

First, the most likely outcome is simply that Europe starts paying more for its own defense, or at least discussions around that, without much change in the actual construct of NATO or anything else.

But, what if that construct did change? As per above, the U.S. would lose some influence in directing said defense. Is that that important? I think the answer to that depends on Russia. How likely is a likely large scale confrontation between Europe and Russia? Would they ever align themselves with Russia? If not, then I don't really see a downside.

Outside of Europe, I'm not sure I see much change. European countries will act in their own best interest...but that is already the case. Even within Europe, that was still the case (recall the Balkans conflict, and Europe's steadfast refusal to do much about it, even though it was right there in their own backyard). We do get Europe to engage with us on various international endeauvours. Would that decrease with our reduced influence? I don't know.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jun 12 2017, 08:00 PM
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