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> Confederate Memorials, Should they be removed?
entspeak
post Oct 11 2017, 07:53 PM
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There have been two white supremacist rallies in Charlottesville recently and the past few months have been filled with discussions about the removal of memorials honoring Confederate military and government figures.

Should memorials erected to honor the acts and individuals who fought for the Confederacy be taken down (and, possibly, moved to places like museums?)

Why/Why not?
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droop224
post Jul 12 2020, 01:22 AM
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Go wherever. Figure it out. We did.

I don't "recognize myself". It's what I happen to be, whether I recognize myself, or spend the rest of my days in a barbiturate-induced coma. What are you even talking about?

1. you were already there. You didn't figure out anything Looms, did you LOOMS??
2. I say "recognize" cause that's exactly what you are doing.
(a) understand religion
(b ) understand ego
QUOTE
Are you telling me I'm uninformed about my own truth of my own people? Isn't that a major faux pas among the evangelical left?
Whether you are or are not is not knowledge i have, but the stuff you are stating seems like you do?
QUOTE
I assumed it was just American culture. Apparently you, speaking on behalf of at least a portion of the black population, disagree. So I'm just giving you an option of what you can do, as opposed to all this oppression.
Thanks, I guess. I am merely telling you the other option is to struggle against oppression. You have a problem with fellow humans struggling against oppression? Or you have a problem with us discussing it so publicly? You a suffer in silence type individual?

QUOTE
I don't care about the history of people who aren't you. And holy hell...are you legit using the Holocaust as a legit argument for comparison even after I explicitly said that I was bringing it up as a joke? Are you trying to set the world record for leftist humorlessness? I mean, if you want to be serious, I can always bring up the fact that I still hear "muh black Wall Street" every single day, despite the fact that pogroms were damn near a national sport in Eastern Europe for however long. Stuff got rebuilt every single time. Deal with it.
LOL i saw "you jest" which was directly followed by "seriously, I don't get it" If it was a joke, what was the punchline? I don't know what to tell you playa... work on your delivery! laugh.gif <---- add one of those or something!

QUOTE
Now do that collectively. Or don't. But stop crying about it and stop trying to make yourself my problem on the basis of your skin color.
Is this a joke? Am i missing the punchline again? Is there a emoticon you forgot to put in there? Should i take this line serious? You sound... upset, frustrated, tired and aggravated. That's what energy I'm feeling from your words. Why so?

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Thank you for saving all of America from itself, but if Baltimore or Chicago are anything to go by, can you please do it to Iran, or North Korea, or literally anywhere else?
THUG "The Hate You Gave" -Tupac
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Drug dealer buy Jordan, crackhead buy crack And the white man get paid off of all of that" - Kanye West

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Hail Mary, Jesus and Joseph
The great American flag
Is wrapped and dragged with explosives

Compulsive disorder, sons and daughters
Barricaded blocks and borders
Look what you taught us
It's murder on my street, your street, back streets
Wall street, corporate offices, banks
Employees and bosses with homicidal thoughts

Donald Trump's in office, we lost Barack
And promised to never doubt him again
But is America honest or do we bask in sin?
Pass the gin, I mix it with American blood
Then bash him in, you crippin' or you married to blood?
I'll ask again—oops—accident
It's nasty when you set us up
Then roll the dice, then bet us up
You overnight the big rifles, then tell Fox to be scared of us
Gang members or terrorists, et cetera, et cetera
Americas reflections of me
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Looms we aren't going anywhere. Do you have a problem with us struggling for equality here?

QUOTE
Liberty, sure. Justice, as in the universality of law, and not what your cult calls justice, sure. Equality? No. It's just not happening. It's not a matter of what frightens me. Spiders frighten me. Egalitarianism is the most destructive and repulsive political concept ever developed, so I reject it.
Then continue your struggle for Supremacy! This is your journey in life. But, when you fight for supremacy, you're no different than any other animal on Earth.

QUOTE
I know. Feel free to take your allies with you. In fact, you have my full permission to enslave them in lieu of reparations. You know, since we're here as the representatives of white and black Americans, and not as Looms and Droop, apparently.
Where we going? We are here.

QUOTE
I'm SHOCKED. At the end of it all, you decided that the right, and morally courageous thing to do is to stay here, in the bastion of racism and oppression, and continue crying and making excuses, with your guilty white allies who are more than happy to treat you as their deficient stepchild on the basis of your skin color. Because racism bad.
Looms, are you scared of what happens if someone pulls back the curtain of racism and sees the wizard behind it? laugh.gif laugh.gif
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Blackstone
post Jul 12 2020, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 11 2020, 08:22 PM) *
Do you have a problem with us struggling for equality here?

Just to tie this to the topic under discussion, I confess to being a bit at a loss as to how a statue in Jacksonville has anything to do with an unjustifiable police killing in Minneapolis. I'm pretty sure you can walk endlessly through the streets of New York, Detroit, Chicago, LA, and many other major U.S. cities where relations between police and minority communities have been difficult, and struggle mightily to spot a single Confederate statue. Not likely to find too many Confederate flags either, for that matter. Nor are the mass media exactly saturated with such images.

Moreover, in recent years there's been something of a "reverse Great Migration" back to the South, suggesting that the places with displays of this nature aren't where race relations are the worst in America.

So perhaps there are more substantive ways of addressing the things you think need to be addressed that don't waste energy on things that aren't really hurting anyone?
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droop224
post Jul 13 2020, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE(Blackstone @ Jul 12 2020, 03:39 PM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 11 2020, 08:22 PM) *
Do you have a problem with us struggling for equality here?

Just to tie this to the topic under discussion, I confess to being a bit at a loss as to how a statue in Jacksonville has anything to do with an unjustifiable police killing in Minneapolis. I'm pretty sure you can walk endlessly through the streets of New York, Detroit, Chicago, LA, and many other major U.S. cities where relations between police and minority communities have been difficult, and struggle mightily to spot a single Confederate statue. Not likely to find too many Confederate flags either, for that matter. Nor are the mass media exactly saturated with such images.

Moreover, in recent years there's been something of a "reverse Great Migration" back to the South, suggesting that the places with displays of this nature aren't where race relations are the worst in America.

So perhaps there are more substantive ways of addressing the things you think need to be addressed that don't waste energy on things that aren't really hurting anyone?

Well I can appreciate you getting us back on track. but there is a connection, racism. General, public support for racism. Generally accepted racism. So I don't want to talk about police brutality or debate it in this thread either. I will say this, and move on, the same reason that one officer had his knee on a neck, while two officers in training held down the legs, while one officer held back others while being filmed the whole time... IS the reason why many feel its fine to keep this statues up. See being murderous, well that just takes any old body. You don't need to be racist to be a murderous SOB. But there he was... in uniform.. looking at the witnesses record him, in front of his fellow officers. I honestly couldn't tell you whether Chauvin hated George Floyd or wanted to kill him. But what that video truly shows is that wasn't concerned with people seeing him treat Floyd in this manner and the other officer didn't seem to care. I would think that most people would conclude that what we saw was nothing new to Chauvin or the Asian officer and was something being taught to the officers in training.

Dave Chapelle touches on this quite well. See to the cops on the job for a while, George Floyds life had no value. If George didn't die, America wouldn't care?? If we see that same video and George lives, it would have to be a different video.

Let's pivot this back to statues that memorialize leaders of the confederate and symbols of the Confederacy that memorialize people that fought to continue enslavement. Revisionist history amongst my fellow White debaters is getting so bad that even PragerU is admitting that the civil war was fought for the south to retain slaves.

Look whether you agree or disagree, its well documented that the South fought slavery. That's a really good reason to to take down memorializing monuments of these individuals. The fact that they fought to continue the enslavement of Blacks is a really good reason for Blacks to want to see them statues removed or streets and schools renamed. If you thought the Black voices in our society had value, you would hear us when we say those are symbols of racism. This is not new. I was looking a a video from "Golden Girls" where the issue was discussed. I'm looking at an old episode of "the heat of the night" the issues is discussed. This is not new!

So what's changed??

White people. More, so many more care and are tired of living in a racist society. For so long its been an ego thing for so many Whites. "I'm not racist!" "I'm not saying there aren't racial issues, but I'm not racist!" So many Whites and even non Whites are ready to see their fellow Americans subjected to Racism, as long as they can say "I have Black friends, I'm not a racist!" Thats all most of you I debate care about. Thats honestly how so many Whites have been for so long. They didn't want to be seen as racist.

So what's changed??

White people. There is a movement of White people who no longer want to live in a racist society. And man it's really messing up the other Whites because you all thought you were on the same page. "No the game is we don't look racist" Look at little Hailey go..lol

See the connections. It's it not about the statue, the flag or the police brutality, its about wanting to live in a society without racism. And its not just Blacks anymore.

So why don't you answer a question for me? Why do we need statues memorializing traitors and people who fought to maintain slavery in this country on Courthouse steps? Does it really make sense to you that we do that to remember our history? History books aren't good enough?

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Hobbes
post Jul 13 2020, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 12 2020, 07:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Blackstone @ Jul 12 2020, 03:39 PM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 11 2020, 08:22 PM) *
Do you have a problem with us struggling for equality here?

Just to tie this to the topic under discussion, I confess to being a bit at a loss as to how a statue in Jacksonville has anything to do with an unjustifiable police killing in Minneapolis. I'm pretty sure you can walk endlessly through the streets of New York, Detroit, Chicago, LA, and many other major U.S. cities where relations between police and minority communities have been difficult, and struggle mightily to spot a single Confederate statue. Not likely to find too many Confederate flags either, for that matter. Nor are the mass media exactly saturated with such images.

Moreover, in recent years there's been something of a "reverse Great Migration" back to the South, suggesting that the places with displays of this nature aren't where race relations are the worst in America.

So perhaps there are more substantive ways of addressing the things you think need to be addressed that don't waste energy on things that aren't really hurting anyone?

Well I can appreciate you getting us back on track. but there is a connection, racism. General, public support for racism. Generally accepted racism. So I don't want to talk about police brutality or debate it in this thread either. I will say this, and move on, the same reason that one officer had his knee on a neck, while two officers in training held down the legs, while one officer held back others while being filmed the whole time... IS the reason why many feel its fine to keep this statues up. See being murderous, well that just takes any old body. You don't need to be racist to be a murderous SOB. But there he was... in uniform.. looking at the witnesses record him, in front of his fellow officers. I honestly couldn't tell you whether Chauvin hated George Floyd or wanted to kill him. But what that video truly shows is that wasn't concerned with people seeing him treat Floyd in this manner and the other officer didn't seem to care. I would think that most people would conclude that what we saw was nothing new to Chauvin or the Asian officer and was something being taught to the officers in training.

Dave Chapelle touches on this quite well. See to the cops on the job for a while, George Floyds life had no value. If George didn't die, America wouldn't care?? If we see that same video and George lives, it would have to be a different video.

Let's pivot this back to statues that memorialize leaders of the confederate and symbols of the Confederacy that memorialize people that fought to continue enslavement. Revisionist history amongst my fellow White debaters is getting so bad that even PragerU is admitting that the civil war was fought for the south to retain slaves.

Look whether you agree or disagree, its well documented that the South fought slavery. That's a really good reason to to take down memorializing monuments of these individuals. The fact that they fought to continue the enslavement of Blacks is a really good reason for Blacks to want to see them statues removed or streets and schools renamed. If you thought the Black voices in our society had value, you would hear us when we say those are symbols of racism. This is not new. I was looking a a video from "Golden Girls" where the issue was discussed. I'm looking at an old episode of "the heat of the night" the issues is discussed. This is not new!

So what's changed??

White people. More, so many more care and are tired of living in a racist society. For so long its been an ego thing for so many Whites. "I'm not racist!" "I'm not saying there aren't racial issues, but I'm not racist!" So many Whites and even non Whites are ready to see their fellow Americans subjected to Racism, as long as they can say "I have Black friends, I'm not a racist!" Thats all most of you I debate care about. Thats honestly how so many Whites have been for so long. They didn't want to be seen as racist.

So what's changed??

White people. There is a movement of White people who no longer want to live in a racist society. And man it's really messing up the other Whites because you all thought you were on the same page. "No the game is we don't look racist" Look at little Hailey go..lol

See the connections. It's it not about the statue, the flag or the police brutality, its about wanting to live in a society without racism. And its not just Blacks anymore.

So why don't you answer a question for me? Why do we need statues memorializing traitors and people who fought to maintain slavery in this country on Courthouse steps? Does it really make sense to you that we do that to remember our history? History books aren't good enough?


While I agree on the general sentiment in your post, I am curious on just exactly when you became such an expert on 'white people'? And if you realize that stereotyping them all like that is actually doing the very thing you seem to want changed...perpetuating racism. That you actually think that all white people think alike...and that we're all racist...is a big part of the problem today. For me, I don't want to be 'seen as racist' because I'm NOT racist. And I'm tired of people thinking I am just because of the color of MY skin. If you disagree on me not being racist, please cite all the things you KNOW about ME that would make ME racist. If you believe I am racist just because of the color of my skin...congratulations! You're racist.
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droop224
post Jul 13 2020, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE
While I agree on the general sentiment in your post, I am curious on just exactly when you became such an expert on 'white people'?
Not so sure you do agree with the sentiment after everything else you wrote, but i hope you do.

I do not have the audacity or hubris to believe i am an expert on White people. There is a big change in these recent round of protest, i'm merely giving you my opinion based on my observations. For what it's worth i am not an expert on Black people either. I'm not sure the credential of being an expert on any particular race of people is possible.

QUOTE
And if you realize that stereotyping them all like that is actually doing the very thing you seem to want changed...perpetuating racism.
I'm not stereotypying all White people like anything. Generalities is not saying all Whites do anything. Generalities is an actual thing.
QUOTE
That you actually think that all white people think alike...and that we're all racist...is a big part of the problem today.
Then your problem is with the strawman you created, not me. I don't think all White people think alike.
QUOTE
For me, I don't want to be 'seen as racist' because I'm NOT racist. And I'm tired of people thinking I am just because of the color of MY skin.
The color of your skin??? That's what you tell yourself? Supporting a President that tweets video with people yelling "White power"; Supporting racist symbols and calling it 'history", supporting unjust laws and punishments and calling it a Justice system; maybe some of these things and a list of other might tend to make you look racist. But the color of your skin??? I agree the color of your skin has nothing to do with you being racist, the things you believe and support, can make you racist or a supporter of racism, if that sounds better.

QUOTE
If you disagree on me not being racist, please cite all the things you KNOW about ME that would make ME racist. If you believe I am racist just because of the color of my skin...congratulations! You're racist.
I'll pass. You know what you do and don't support. You know what behavior you support. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU CAN JUSTIFY to tell yourself, "I'm not a racist". It's not my place.

My place is to say its 2020 and minorities are still suffering from racism. Someone is keeping these institutions of racism going because we can see the results in the disparity. Especially, in the Latino American, Native American, and African American (Black and Brown)communities. We see these disparities in economics, legal\criminals system, politics. These systems can only be changed by policies at all levels of government in all branches. Where do you stand on creating parity and equality?

This post has been edited by droop224: Jul 14 2020, 01:15 AM
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Blackstone
post Jul 16 2020, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 12 2020, 09:30 PM) *
I honestly couldn't tell you whether Chauvin hated George Floyd or wanted to kill him. But what that video truly shows is that wasn't concerned with people seeing him treat Floyd in this manner and the other officer didn't seem to care. I would think that most people would conclude that what we saw was nothing new to Chauvin or the Asian officer and was something being taught to the officers in training.

But you're still making the assumption (really, without evidence, I should add) that racism was the, or even a, motivating factor here - as opposed to say, having dealt with one too many criminals, of whatever race, and reacting to their frustrations the wrong way.

The question is of course highly relevant to the overall debate, because though neither scenario would have justified the officers' actions, if it were the latter, it wouldn't implicate "systemic racism," only the officers themselves. Still less would it implicate Confederate monuments thousands of miles away, especially since, as I pointed out, the parts of the country where they're most visible don't appear to be any worse in terms of race relations than anywhere else in America today.
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droop224
post Jul 17 2020, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE(Blackstone)
But you're still making the assumption (really, without evidence, I should add) that racism was the, or even a, motivating factor here - as opposed to say, having dealt with one too many criminals, of whatever race, and reacting to their frustrations the wrong way.
Am I?? My first sentence you quoted stated "I honestly couldn't tell you whether Chauvin hated George Floyd or wanted to kill him." - Droop. So... I don't presume to be able to get in anyone's head and know explicitly how they feel about Blacks. I can see what you do, I can see what you support. I can hear the racist dog whistles just like you. Of course that gives a person with racist views plausible deniability, but that's the game we have to endure.

So yes there is a bit of assumption that Chauvin is racist, and you're right, besides him kneeling on the neck of a Black man for over 8 minutes I don't have any evidence he is racist. I mean you could hang a Black person up in a tree, doesn't mean you are a racist maybe you just didn't like that Black person. You could drag him behind your pickup truck, which is peppered with confederate flag stickers, doesn't mean you are racist, could be just this Black guy got on your nerves. You could chase a Black man, while he was jogging through your neighborhood, or walking with a ice tea and skittles, and kill them when they defend themselves. Doesn't mean you're racist, maybe you just really care about the safety of your neighborhood. You could call them the N-word, but maybe they were REALLY acting like the N-word, doesn't prove you're racist, just p'd off. I mean, really, how do we really know, really, ya know??

As for systemic racism, i think the problem we have is that George Floyd is with out a doubt a focal point in history. But he's really just a straw on a camel's back. But it's a catch 22 right, if you can't see the camel of systemic racism, because you keep excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat,
excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, then HOW can you see that George Floyd is just a straw??

QUOTE
The question is of course highly relevant to the overall debate, because though neither scenario would have justified the officers' actions, if it were the latter, it wouldn't implicate "systemic racism," only the officers themselves. Still less would it implicate Confederate monuments thousands of miles away, especially since, as I pointed out, the parts of the country where they're most visible don't appear to be any worse in terms of race relations than anywhere else in America today.
OK i see what you are saying... like why tear down monument cause some bad cops killed a Black man!! Doesn't make sense!! However, what if people view confederate monuments of generals that fought to enslave Blacks and the a cop who could care less he was being recorded with his knee in the Black man's neck, as part of the same system of racism?? You know, the camel. Something to ponder.

This post has been edited by droop224: Jul 17 2020, 03:55 AM
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Blackstone
post Jul 25 2020, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 16 2020, 11:46 PM) *
So yes there is a bit of assumption that Chauvin is racist, and you're right, besides him kneeling on the neck of a Black man for over 8 minutes I don't have any evidence he is racist.

Exactly, because "evidence he's a racist" would be evidence that Floyd's race had anything to do with his actions, and yes, you have no evidence of that whatsoever. It's not as though human beings of the same race don't kill and brutalize each other with a lamentable regularity.

"Evidence that he's a racist" would mean things like racially disparaging comments, a history of racial disparity in how he treats others (for the same actions), or some other kind of special indicator beyond a mere difference in race. You have none of that.

QUOTE
But it's a catch 22 right, if you can't see the camel of systemic racism, because you keep excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat,
excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, then HOW can you see that George Floyd is just a straw??

Excusing, rationalizing, and justifying what, now? After I just got through saying, "neither scenario [i.e., racist or non-racist motivations] would have justified the officers' actions"? Are you suggesting Chauvin's actions would have been justified if it had been determined that they were not in fact motivated by race?

QUOTE
However, what if people view confederate monuments of generals that fought to enslave Blacks and the a cop who could care less he was being recorded with his knee in the Black man's neck, as part of the same system of racism??

Then I'd say they're drawing sweeping conclusions based on superficial considerations. It's the same type of simplistic thinking that also leads to wild conspiracy theories.

Or for that matter, to racism itself.
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droop224
post Oct 20 2020, 10:35 PM
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Exactly, because "evidence he's a racist" would be evidence that Floyd's race had anything to do with his actions, and yes, you have no evidence of that whatsoever. It's not as though human beings of the same race don't kill and brutalize each other with a lamentable regularity.

"Evidence that he's a racist" would mean things like racially disparaging comments, a history of racial disparity in how he treats others (for the same actions), or some other kind of special indicator beyond a mere difference in race. You have none of that.

Why would a history of him making racial disparaging remarks mean his motives for killing George Floyd were racists motives? Give me the logic. A white cop Mark Furman was found to use racial derogatory statements does that mean we should assume OJ really was set up by Mark?
The system of racism is the system that makes him think its appropriate to put his knee in this mans neck. Its the system that makes bystanders keep their distance or else they may be killed or arrested. Its the system that trains rookie cops, "this is how you do it". Its the system that allows cops to drive by and kill a child in less than 10 seconds and get off free. Most importantly its the system that is supported and protected, mainly, by White Conservatives of this nation, under of the guise of "law and order". The truth that I believe that you may be unwilling to acknowledge is that if George Floyd lives, if Eric Garner lives, than its just business as usual.

QUOTE
Excusing, rationalizing, and justifying what, now? After I just got through saying, "neither scenario [i.e., racist or non-racist motivations] would have justified the officers' actions"? Are you suggesting Chauvin's actions would have been justified if it had been determined that they were not in fact motivated by race?
No matter how many times i tell you I can not know the internal motivations of any human being, you keep asking me questions about Chauvin motivations. So let's start here... Blackstone do you believe/acknowledge/agree (pick your word) that there is systemic racism in the US?
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Blackstone
post Oct 21 2020, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 20 2020, 06:35 PM) *
Why would a history of him making racial disparaging remarks mean his motives for killing George Floyd were racists motives?

It certainly would be stronger evidence than a lack of such a history, which was my only point. I didn't make any claims as to how strong that evidence would be, only that without anything like that, it would be even harder to make such a case.

QUOTE
So let's start here... Blackstone do you believe/acknowledge/agree (pick your word) that there is systemic racism in the US?

I'd be more inclined to believe it when I see evidence that blacks are more likely to be killed by police than whites for the same actions.
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droop224
post Oct 22 2020, 05:17 AM
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It certainly would be stronger evidence than a lack of such a history, which was my only point. I didn't make any claims as to how strong that evidence would be, only that without anything like that, it would be even harder to make such a case.
OK this is some high level double speak here, but i get you. From my perspective racism contributes to the belief that the behavior was acceptable whether Floyd died or not that night. Making the case that Chauvin is a racist is a sideshow. It put the onus squarely on him being a racist rather that a racist corrupt system. As you say, whether he is racist or not, if we both agree he belongs in jail, what difference does our opinions make? He's a racist doesn't stop the system of racism in this country. He is not a racist.... still doesn't stop the system of racism in this country.
QUOTE
I'd be more inclined to believe it when I see evidence that blacks are more likely to be killed by police than whites for the same actions.
Great non-answer. I mean you didn't say yes... or no. And even if i showed you what you are looking to see, well, you'd just be a little more "inclined" to believe it. laugh.gif here is the issue as i see it and we can get back on topic of debate. If you are capable in seeing that institutional/systemic racism exist, then you can make the connection from how protest against police brutality translates to taking down racist symbols. Even if you don't believe in institutional racism you should easily be smart enough to understand how people attacking a system would attack it in various ways but still be attacking the same system.
Let's get back to the monuments and memorials of the confederacy. Given that we have ample quotes of the racism is it appropriate to want to remove them due to the fact that they currently viewed as racist symbols.


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Blackstone
post Oct 24 2020, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 22 2020, 01:17 AM) *
Let's get back to the monuments and memorials of the confederacy.

We were talking about that earlier. I asked what harm they did, you began talking about "institutional racism", I asked the question I did seeking evidence, you didn't answer, so we're back to where we started. Any suggestions on how to break out of that cycle?
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droop224
post Oct 24 2020, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE
We were talking about that earlier. I asked what harm they did, you began talking about "institutional racism", I asked the question I did seeking evidence, you didn't answer, so we're back to where we started. Any suggestions on how to break out of that cycle?
I don't know. Here is what I can do for you. I don't believe in God, but if some one were to talk to me about God I can still understand their beliefs and understand an argument that derives from that belief.

Many American, some statistics would say most Americans, believe institutional racism is real in America. So even if you personally don't believe institutional or systemic racism I'm sure you have the intellect to understand people that do. So the statues represent racism to many Americans, not past racism, but the honoring of racism by honoring confederates that fought and betrayed their country in order to continue enslaving Blacks. They, I should say "we", believe that the kneeling on neck of George Floyd is just as much a apart of the institutional system of racism that find it appropriate to honor confederates and symbols of confederacy.


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Blackstone
post Oct 24 2020, 09:28 PM
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So the debate question is, Should X be done? And your answer is: If we assume premise A is valid, then yes, X should be done. I'd imagine we can both see that that's not a complete answer to the question.

But even if we assume your premise is valid, let's examine the conclusion.

So say we do have a problem of systemic racism that affects how police do their jobs. Will taking down statues do anything to undo that? If this racism exists, it's more than likely based on a view, however unjustified, that blacks are criminals and gang members and other assorted unproductive ne'er-do-wells who create dysfunctional communities. Moreover, this would be a largely unconscious assumption, as no one in public life would dare come out and actually argue this. Many whites who hold such subconscious views will also profess, even sincerely, their view that Martin Luther King was a great man, that slavery and Jim Crow were wrong, that David Duke should be treated like he's got a nasty permanent case of B.O., and that blacks really are entitled to full equality under the law with whites. But when actually encountering them in real life, assuming this premise about white America is correct, more deep-seated assumptions, based perhaps solely on impressions of blacks that they get from the entertainment media, will begin to surface.

Now let's say all this is an accurate summation of the attitudes of many Americans. Will removing Confederate statues even put a dent in that kind of mentality? It's highly unlikely, given that whites throughout America already acknowledge that the cause those men fought for was wrong. There's simply no plausible reason I can see that those statues would have any effect on their thinking, conscious or unconscious. (now entertainment media portrayals of blacks, including many that are marketed largely to blacks, on the other hand...)
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droop224
post Oct 26 2020, 01:32 AM
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Blackstone
QUOTE
So the debate question is, Should X be done? And your answer is: If we assume premise A is valid, then yes, X should be done. I'd imagine we can both see that that's not a complete answer to the question.
Whoa. Whoa!! Wait. How? I have no clue where you come up with this logic. I scroll back and look in pasts posts... No where am i making such an argument. Or maybe i just am not understanding what you mean when you say "If we assume premise A is valid, then yes X should be done" Unless premise "A" is "confederate memorials and flags are seen by many as symbols of racism" "then yes they should be removed as memorials" Is this the logic you are using?
QUOTE
So say we do have a problem of systemic racism that affects how police do their jobs. Will taking down statues do anything to undo that?
No, and I am in no way implying that it would.
QUOTE
Now let's say all this is an accurate summation of the attitudes of many Americans. Will removing Confederate statues even put a dent in that kind of mentality?
Yes... No... Macro... Micro... This statement reminds me of some of the hardcore debates I have with some of my Black friends, but a flip side. Theses arguments start with the idea that Whites are purposefully intent on being bad human beings, that they know racism exist and want it to continue into infinity. That Whites have done nothing to help Blacks and the idea of "White allies" for Black causes is naive. The belief is that things don't change or won't change.

I think Barack has and other civil rights leaders have done to decent job trying to explain the process of changing the minds of racists. Is slow, its generational, and its continuous. Even as we remove 5 hurdles over here, there are powers that seek to add 4-6 hurdles over there. So in the short time with people entrenched with a certain mindset. Will they change their minds because statues are removed? maybe not. But when those confederate flags are demonized like symbols of Nazism, and those statues are demonized in the same manner as a statue of Saddam or Hitler, we will be able to stop a certain level of revisionist history. In the long run I think that will changed minds of future generations.
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Blackstone
post Oct 27 2020, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 25 2020, 09:32 PM) *
But when those confederate flags are demonized like symbols of Nazism, and those statues are demonized in the same manner as a statue of Saddam or Hitler, we will be able to stop a certain level of revisionist history.

But there's a big problem with that comparison. Saddam and Hitler were dictators, and it didn't take a lot to convince their former subjects that they put their respective countries through hell. The Confederacy, on the other hand, was the result of at least a quasi-democratic process - "quasi-" because of course blacks were shut out of the process, but that didn't change the fact that it was still far from a dictatorship. Thus, it had a broad cultural impact in the South that can't really be compared to autocratic movements.

What that means is that tearing down statues, however condemnable the actions of the men those statues depict, is very unlikely to have even a gradual effect of the kind you seek on hearts and minds, if those hearts and minds attach to those symbols for reasons other than racism. You can call that view revisionist, but that's really not the issue. The issue for our purposes isn't what happened in the past, but the effect those symbols have, here in the present. If they don't contribute to actual racist attitudes - and there's really so very little if any evidence that they do - then demanding they be torn down doesn't do much other than raise the temperature for no good reason.

(and for now, I'll pass on commenting on your description of Barack Obama as a "civil rights leader")
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droop224
post Oct 27 2020, 01:08 AM
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But there's a big problem with that comparison. Saddam and Hitler were dictators, and it didn't take a lot to convince their former subjects that they put their respective countries through hell. The Confederacy, on the other hand, was the result of at least a quasi-democratic process - "quasi-" because of course blacks were shut out of the process, but that didn't change the fact that it was still far from a dictatorship.
Earlier I said...
QUOTE
But he's really just a straw on a camel's back. But it's a catch 22 right, if you can't see the camel of systemic racism, because you keep excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat,
excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, excusing, rationalizing, and justifying, etc, repeat, then HOW can you see that George Floyd is just a straw??
You ask what I was talking about. Well, you just exemplified what I am talking about.

They were slave owners and people who fought to allow slavery to continue. What kind of human is worst than a slave owner? Try to get that good ol moral compass working here... I know a more than a few people who've killed human beings... but a slave owner can kill his\her slave and that's ok because they property. Is a rapist worst than a slaver... well a slaver can rape the men and the woman... sleep with the little boys... they just property. Hitler was elected, Saddam was a "quasi-" president. And while they were both brutal men of power, neither was a low as slave owner.
QUOTE
What that means is that tearing down statues, however condemnable the actions of the men those statues depict, is very unlikely to have even a gradual effect of the kind you seek on hearts and minds, if those hearts and minds attach to those symbols for reasons other than racism. You can call that view revisionist, but that's really not the issue.
I call it revisionist, because i'm being nice. Because I want the debate to be productive, I understand my audience and want to use words that are "palatable". That being said, I have to disagree. What you believe is not the issue IS the issue, IMO. My memorializing the flag and the statues YOU CREATE the revisionist history. That the beginning of "Well, they weren't that bad..." We are creating creating this "attachment to these symbols for reasons other than racism" by allowing them to exist. Stop rationalizing the false narrative that we have to memorialize these things to preserve their history. We can stop memorializing the slave wanting south and preserve the history of these generals, soldiers and politicians.

BUT... there still are current Americans who fight to keep these symbols of racism honored, because... it means something more to them. I mean they recognize its racist nature but its racism.. and slavery.. but it has a side order of freedom fries and southern pride!!

QUOTE
(and for now, I'll pass on commenting on your description of Barack Obama as a "civil rights leader")
Thank you. I'll take the blame for this, it was a poorly crafted sentence. I don't see Obama as a Civil Rights leader. But, not that it matters, I bet he got the support of most, if not all of them!
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Blackstone
post Oct 28 2020, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 26 2020, 09:08 PM) *
And while they were both brutal men of power, neither was a low as slave owner.

That is literally the first time in my life I've ever heard or seen anyone argue that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were worse human beings than Adolf Hitler. Maybe you can show that "moral compass" to some Holocaust survivors to get their assessment of it.

QUOTE
I call it revisionist, because i'm being nice. Because I want the debate to be productive, I understand my audience and want to use words that are "palatable". That being said, I have to disagree. What you believe is not the issue IS the issue, IMO. My memorializing the flag and the statues YOU CREATE the revisionist history. That the beginning of "Well, they weren't that bad..." We are creating creating this "attachment to these symbols for reasons other than racism" by allowing them to exist. Stop rationalizing the false narrative that we have to memorialize these things to preserve their history. We can stop memorializing the slave wanting south and preserve the history of these generals, soldiers and politicians.

Rationalizing, justifying, revisionizing, whatever term you want to use - at the end of the day it still comes down to what evidence there is that any of this affects anything in the real world today. That was what we were discussing last time we were focusing specifically on the monuments. The last exchange of that discussion was this:

QUOTE(droop224)
However, what if people view confederate monuments of generals that fought to enslave Blacks and the a cop who could care less he was being recorded with his knee in the Black man's neck, as part of the same system of racism??

QUOTE(Blackstone)
Then I'd say they're drawing sweeping conclusions based on superficial considerations. It's the same type of simplistic thinking that also leads to wild conspiracy theories.

Or for that matter, to racism itself.

You said you wanted to get back onto the actual question for debate, and since I can see we're starting to cycle around back to this point, this might be a good place to pick it up from.
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droop224
post Oct 28 2020, 04:46 AM
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QUOTE(Blackstone)
That is literally the first time in my life I've ever heard or seen anyone argue that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were worse human beings than Adolf Hitler.
Exactly!! I mean, EXACTLY!!! (If you could see my face as I silently scream this at the laptop "EXACTLY!!" w00t.gif ) I mean this is what it means to be Black in America. You have to live with people with this high level of cognitive dissonance. I mean it seems perfectly normal to think that one of the greatest most important freedom fighters of our nation... was a slave owner. hey look, I won't lie... i get a warm fuzzy when I'm watching Hamilton on Disney or listening to it on Amazon. I like the part "here comes the general!!" I can get a little caught up in the revisionist history too. But deep down, i know... he was a slave owner. And i don't know how to get more immoral than a human being who seeks to own other human beings as property.

And just to be clear, i am not arguing that George Washington and/or Thomas Jefferson were worst human beings than Adolf Hitler. I have no time for that uphill battle. I'm in a debate trying to convince you that Traitorous Whites who wanted to continue to enslave human beings should not be memorialized... I'm not even trying to touch slave owning founding fathers.
QUOTE
Maybe you can show that "moral compass" to some Holocaust survivors to get their assessment of it.
Any day of the week. As they say this ain't the oppression Olympics, but they can't beat us. laugh.gif laugh.gif But lay that to the side. My moral compass is just fine, because I'm not pretending that Hitler was a decent human being. I don't pretend that symbols of hate, like the Nazi flag, means something different in the "hearts and minds attach to those symbols for reasons other than antisemitism." See I'm not going to look at a Jewish man and woman, holocaust survivor or not, and say "ya' know times was different back then..." That's what you and Conservatives like you do.
QUOTE
You said you wanted to get back onto the actual question for debate, and since I can see we're starting to cycle around back to this point, this might be a good place to pick it up from.
w00t.gif This line of argument is what got us going in circles if you ask me. I'm not saying that because of George Floyd... Confederate statues need to come down. I'm saying that when attacking racism it makes sense you would attack symbols of racism, because you seemed not to understand the connection and mischaracterized the connection and my position. But i thought we cleared that up.. maybe not.

That being said when you say:
QUOTE
Then I'd say they're drawing sweeping conclusions based on superficial considerations. It's the same type of simplistic thinking that also leads to wild conspiracy theories.
I ignored this statement previously, because it isn't saying anything to me. 1. What sweeping conclusions are being drawn? 2. what are you calling superficial considerations? 3. What thought process are you characterizing as simplistic thinking? 4. What wild conspiracy are you referring too? 5. How does it lead to racism?

I'm not saying you have to answer any of my questions, just please understand my position better than you have before you make your argument so i can address it better. An analogy might help.

Say I want to dig up a plot of land. On that land is a tree, a flowerbed, and grass. Now the tree is not connected to the flowerbed and the flowerbed isn't connected to the grass, and the grass is not connected to the tree. But if I'm digging up the plot of land I'll be digging at the grass, uprooting the tree, and tearing out the flowerbed.

This post has been edited by droop224: Oct 28 2020, 04:48 AM
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