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> Yogurt's Paradox, What am I missing...
Yogurt
post Mar 4 2006, 12:30 PM
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Let me say first that this is based on my perceptions. I have been thinking about this apparent paradox for a few days, and thought I'd throw it to the forums to help me find what I'm missing from this equation.

Assumptions: (Mine, of course!)
1. Democrats generally are associated with "liberal" ideals and persons.
2. Many "Liberals" often are apologetic for the self-proclaimed "Palestinians" and other Religion of Peace ™ groups, preferring to call homicide bombers "Freedom Fighters" after they blow up buses full of civilians, etc.
3. "Palestinians" supporters also include the Religion of Peace ™, Nation of Islam in the US, and other groups who like to blame all the worlds ills on the Jews, and would like nothing better than to see them exterminated.

That leads me to the question:

What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats? hmmm.gif
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NiteGuy
post Mar 4 2006, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE(Yogurt @ Mar 4 2006, 06:30 AM)
Let me say first that this is based on my perceptions. I have been thinking about this apparent paradox for a few days, and thought I'd throw it to the forums to help me find what I'm missing from this equation.

Assumptions: (Mine, of course!)
1. Democrats generally are associated with "liberal" ideals and persons.
2. Many "Liberals" often are apologetic for the self-proclaimed "Palestinians" and other Religion of Peace ™ groups, preferring to call homicide bombers "Freedom Fighters" after they blow up buses full of civilians, etc.
3. "Palestinians" supporters also include the Religion of Peace ™, Nation of Islam in the US, and other groups who like to blame all the worlds ills on the Jews, and would like nothing better than to see them exterminated.

That leads me to the question:

What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats? hmmm.gif
*



Let's start with your assumptions, Yogurt. I believe they are incorrect.

Yes, Democrats are generally associated with "liberal" ideals and persons, but this is not always the case. It's not even the case that all "liberals" Jewish or not, and Democrat or not, are "liberal" on all issues. Think Joe Lieberman, for example.

Second, while most (maybe even all) of the more radical left wing are Democrats, it does not necessarily follow that most (or even all) Democrats are radically left wing. In other words, while a few nut cases on the left may be calling Palestinian suicide bombers "freedom fighters", I don't believe that you will find this to be the majority view, by a long shot, within the Democratic party, or most of those that align themselves with the Democrats in other liberal causes or votes.

Third, while your correct that Palestinians and other Arab groups in this country, who may or may not be aligned with the afformentioned far left-wing nut jobs, condone the destruction of Israel and the Jews, there are plenty of other groups who would like to see the extermination of the Jews as well. Groups like the American Nazi Party, and factions of the Ku Klux Klan. Modern-day members of whom seem to most often be associated with the Republican party and/or conservatives.

Bear in mind that Jews have come from a long, long history of discrimination, persecution, and violence perpetrated upon them by a wide variety of groups and nationalities. Jews in America were able to combat a lot of that through political efforts - The New Deal, the Civil Rights struggles, desegregation, etc. These gains then were able to be duplicated in a number of other countries, largely through so-called "liberal" politics.

So, the assumption that Jews should simply turn their backs on the entire Democratic party considering their long history together, for the lack of brains in a few far left-wing nutjobs seems pretty ludicrous to me.

This post has been edited by NiteGuy: Mar 4 2006, 01:41 PM
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English Horn
post Mar 4 2006, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(Yogurt @ Mar 4 2006, 07:30 AM)


That leads me to the question:

What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats? hmmm.gif
*



First of all, let's make one thing clear: Jews who vote for Democrats are American citizens, and while most of them are sympathetic to Israel, their allegiances are (must be!) to the United States. Essentially, you imply that Jews put interests of Israel (or something else) above interests of their country; misconceptions like that in the past lead to things such as Dreyfuss Affair.

Answering your question, however, one can say that Jews have always been in vanguard of all progressive causes in this country such as civil rights, union movement, etc. However, this article goes into greater detail why Jews generally associate themselves with liberalism:

QUOTE
The Jewish historical experience provides another perspective. Since Jews had lived under regimes that were defined as autocratic, it was natural for this community of immigrants to embrace liberal political values and to even experiment with socialist ideas. As a result, the Democratic Party and other liberal and even left-oriented political expressions became the avenue of affiliation for many of these new Americans.

Over time it became "politically chic," according to some writers, to be seen as part of the left by embracing causes of liberalism and advocate for those who were not able to articulate their own interests. Others have suggested that Jewish political behavior was tied to the pull of assimilation. Jews desiring to identify with the mainstream of America were to be found in the ranks of the Democratic Party, which was seen in the 1930s as the ascending political force in American politics. Jews seeking to blend in with the social norms of the society related to the political shifts within the society. Jews affiliated with the Republican Party and its conservative viewpoint have offered a similar explanation for their own more recent engagement.

Finally, there are those who see the advocacy institutions within the Jewish community as naturally aligned with the liberal institutions of the general society. As a result, there was shared linkage between liberal causes that were nurtured and developed inside the Jewish community, and the labor movement, women's organizations, or other social activist endeavors.


Finally, the article mentions that the Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn overwhelmingly voted Republican during the last election. So, as you can see, conservatives vote conservatively regardless of their faith.

This post has been edited by English Horn: Mar 4 2006, 05:01 PM
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Cadman
post Mar 4 2006, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE(Yogurt @ Mar 4 2006, 07:30 AM)

Let me say first that this is based on my perceptions. I have been thinking about this apparent paradox for a few days, and thought I'd throw it to the forums to help me find what I'm missing from this equation.

Assumptions: (Mine, of course!)
1. Democrats generally are associated with "liberal" ideals and persons.
2. Many "Liberals" often are apologetic for the self-proclaimed "Palestinians" and other Religion of Peace ™ groups, preferring to call homicide bombers "Freedom Fighters" after they blow up buses full of civilians, etc.
3. "Palestinians" supporters also include the Religion of Peace ™, Nation of Islam in the US, and other groups who like to blame all the worlds ills on the Jews, and would like nothing better than to see them exterminated.

That leads me to the question:

What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats? hmmm.gif
*



Sorry to say Yogurt when you make generalizations about any group of people you show your ignorance and I will use me as an example to show your generalizations don't fit.

I consider myself a Moderate Democrat, who is in support of Israel's wall to protect them from Palestinian suicide bombers, but also would like to see a peace agreement between the two with both of them getting a recognized states by the world. I am against the Nation of Islam as I see it as another group that promotes hate.

While I do have some views that I would characterize as Liberal leaning there are several issues I don't agree with that Democratic Liberals do which to me makes me a Moderate. While there is a few issues I completely leave most Democratic elected officials on which is issues dealing with illegal aliens for example.

Just to give you a chance to show you are not pulling things out of thin air please show some facts to try to support your claims.
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Yogurt
post Mar 4 2006, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE(Cadman @ Mar 4 2006, 05:42 PM)

Sorry to say Yogurt when you make generalizations about any group of people you show your ignorance and I will use me as an example to show your generalizations don't fit. 

I consider myself a Moderate Democrat, who is in support of Israel's wall to protect them from Palestinian suicide bombers, but also would like to see a peace agreement between the two with both of them getting a recognized states by the world. I am against the Nation of Islam as I see it as another group that promotes hate.

While I do have some views that I would characterize as Liberal leaning there are several issues I don't agree with that Democratic Liberals do which to me makes me a Moderate. While there is a few issues I completely leave most Democratic elected officials on which is issues dealing with illegal aliens for example.

Just to give you a chance to show you are not pulling things out of thin air please show some facts to try to support your claims.


Perhaps if you read the first sentence you would have picked up that it is based strictly my perceptions. Also, No where did I offer that all Liberals are Democrats, or visa versa. This applies to all the associations I cepted, they were not phrased, nor intended, to be mutually exclusive or inclusive, I was just stating my perception of trends that I see.

However I am interested in your insight and perspective on the question.
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BornInZion
post Mar 4 2006, 11:13 PM
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Liberals have a Marxist view of the world, therefor they will always side with the perceived beleaguered oppressed group. Palestinians are, to the liberal mind, first of all an oppressed minority.
Never mind that Palestinian women are oppressed and Israeli women are full members of society.
Never mind that homosexuals are outcasts and discriminated in Palestine and full members of society in Israel.
Never mind that Palestinian society celebrates a death culture, and Israel revers life.
Liberals never ask the question of whether one society is morally superior than another, for to do so would be presumptuous for them. Unless of course, it is a society that is no longer a danger to anyone. For example, Nazi Germany. For a strong moral stand against present evil, don't look to a liberal for clarity.
Cheers!
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carlitoswhey
post Mar 4 2006, 11:19 PM
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What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats
QUOTE(cadman)
Sorry to say Yogurt when you make generalizations about any group of people you show your ignorance and I will use me as an example to show your generalizations don't fit. 

I'm not sure which generalization you are disputing, but Jews do consistently vote for Democrats. Kerry got "only" 75% of the Jewish vote in 2004 (link) , down from Gore's 80%, and that was due to the mid-east situation and the Republican support for Israel. You could go back many elections and this overwhelming support for Democrats would hold true.

Honestly, I'm glad the question was asked here, because I've often asked the same thing.
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Lesly
post Mar 5 2006, 12:38 AM
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What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats?
Oh, a pseudo-Why do blacks vote Democratic? debate. It could just be me but in my experience the philosophy that asks itself How can we win more x-voters? is not the same philosophy that tells itself Why would anyone vote for them?

The question for debate will be met with the same warmth and open mindedness as informing a libertarian he or she is “wasting” their vote on a libertarian candidate. After all, the statement leading up to the debate isn’t exactly inviting impartiality from any side. Someone will trot out complicated reasons and someone else will retort with why this or that group shouldn’t vote for liberals ‘cause they’re freedom haters and traitors. The latter having been dutifully supplied by BornInZion, I should thank you for tossing some red meat into the thread so early even though it could be argued that Jews played a significant role in exporting Marxist socialism to the U.S.

I prefer other explanations. All politics are local and sons and daughters of a certain ethnic group that underwent a certain epiphany in their lifetime don’t necessarily turn out to think and feel like their parents. This is considered a worthy explanation when conservatives like to wax contempt for their wayward hippie contemporaries. The same could be said of any ethnic minority. Cuba is very much on my mind, but why should I limit my philosophy, my vote, to making sure I vote for any party as long as it’s not the party of that bastard traitor, JFK? Why should we expect any ethnic group to place more emphasis on how relatives are doing abroad instead of how their immediate family is doing at the kitchen table, and do we really want that?

This post has been edited by Lesly: Mar 5 2006, 12:49 AM
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Vermillion
post Mar 5 2006, 01:07 AM
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On a completely unrelated note:

Let me say first that this is based on my perceptions. I have been thinking about this apparent paradox for a few days, and thought I'd throw it to the forums to help me find what I'm missing from this equation.

Assumptions: (Mine, of course!)
1. Republicans generally are associated with "fundamentalist" ideals and persons.
2. Many "Fundamentalists" often are apologetic for the self-proclaimed "Abortion bombers" and other fanatic Christian extremists™ groups, preferring to call creationism "acxcurate science" though they cannot actually justify this.
3. "Fundamentalists" supporters also include the Ku Klux Klan, White Power groups in the US, and other groups who like to blame all the worlds ills on the 'mud races', and would like nothing better than to see them exterminated.

That leads me to the question:

Why would anyone vote republican, when they are all Fundamentalist Klan members?



Isn't it fun to make vast and unsupported claims about the lunatic fringe of any group, pretending that they represent the common mahority of that group in order to discredit them?

Hint: Most democrats/liberals/left-wingers do not refer to 'suicide bombers' as freedom fighters, or applaud their actions. Some may understand the desperation that turns them to acts of such savage barbarism, and say that mnaybe there are underlying caises for this apart from 'Palestinians are all evil', but that is a far cry from hailing or heralding them. Those extremist fanatic few who DO think that way MAY vote democrat (though I am not convinced of this) but they in no way represent the democrats or liberals in general.

Similarily, most republicans do not refer to blacks as 'mud races', send death threats to science teachers teaching evolution or kill abortion doctors with high powered rifles. Some may sumpathise in a far less extreme way with the causess these fanatics embrace, while still loathing and deploring their tactics, but that is a far cry from hailing or heralding them. Those extremist fanatic Klan members, violent fundamentalists and murderers few who DO think that way MAY vote republican but they in no way represent the republicans or the right wing in general.


The sooner BOTH sides of the debate realise this, the sooner civilised debate and exchance of ideas can take over.


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vsrenard
post Mar 5 2006, 01:20 AM
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QUOTE(BornInZion @ Mar 4 2006, 03:13 PM)

Liberals have a Marxist view of the world, therefor they will always side with the perceived beleaguered oppressed group. Palestinians are, to the liberal mind, first of all an oppressed minority.
Never mind that Palestinian women are oppressed and Israeli women are full members of society.
Never mind that homosexuals are outcasts and discriminated in Palestine and full members of society in Israel.
Never mind that Palestinian society celebrates a death culture, and Israel revers life.
Liberals never ask the question of whether one society is morally superior than another, for to do so would be presumptuous for them. Unless of course, it is a society that is no longer a danger to anyone. For example, Nazi Germany. For a strong moral stand against present evil, don't look to a liberal for clarity.
Cheers!
*




This argument doesn't really hold water.

1. American women are oppressed in terms of reproductive rights. Conservatives would like to see forced births with women staying home to take care of family.
2. American homosexuals are outcasts. Conservatives would like to deny them equality of civil rights under the law.
3. American government celebrates a death culture. Conservatives favor the death penalty and use war as a first, but not last means.

Words can be twisted to suit any platform. Rather, I think there are good conservatives and good liberals with different views on every issue under the sun. Vilifying one side over the other is naive.

QUOTE
Assumptions: (Mine, of course!)
1. Democrats generally are associated with "liberal" ideals and persons.
2. Many "Liberals" often are apologetic for the self-proclaimed "Palestinians" and other Religion of Peace ™ groups, preferring to call homicide bombers "Freedom Fighters" after they blow up buses full of civilians, etc.
3. "Palestinians" supporters also include the Religion of Peace ™, Nation of Islam in the US, and other groups who like to blame all the worlds ills on the Jews, and would like nothing better than to see them exterminated.

That leads me to the question:

What drives American Jews vote so consistently for Democrats?


1. Agreed.
2. I'm not apologetic but let's call a spade a spade. Palestinians and Jews commit atrocities alike. I think the scale tips towards the Palestinians on violence, but the Israelis are not exactly innocents. it takes one murder of a palestinian child to turn her whole family against Jews. Neither side has done a good job of brokering peace.
3. I don't want to see either side exterminated. I'd really like to see the US withdraw from the whole process and let them work it out.

It's the use of generalization where your assumptions break down, I guess. I've not seen any democratic candidate tell Jews #2 or #3. And for all the Republicans' talk of Judeo-Christian values, it was Democrat who offered the first Jewish VP candidate.
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Jaime
post Mar 5 2006, 01:22 AM
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CLOSED.

Debates involving stereotypes need to be founded on more than one's perception. Constructive debate requires we support our opinions. Otherwise, this place will become indistinguishable from a bunch of blogs.
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