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> Hillary Clinton's health, How much should the public know about a candidate's health?
Gray Seal
post Sep 12 2016, 02:47 PM
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This was a particularly bad weekend for Clinton and her health. She was on video (with at least two angles) in a state of collapse waiting for a vehicle and then entering a vehicle. The campaign released a statement about pneumonia being diagnosed two days earlier.

Questions:

1) What percentage chance do you give that the public is being deceived about Clinton's overall health either by failure to disclose any chronic health problems or by outright lies in regards to Clinton's health?

2) Is the pneumonia event going to cause Clinton to lose voters?

3) Should Clinton withdraw if she has serious health concerns, and if she does, who would be the replacement candidate?

4) How damaging would it be to the Democrat Party should real health problems be revealed? Would her supporters dislike being deceived and believe it to be a conspiracy by the Democrat Party?
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Trouble
post Sep 12 2016, 05:22 PM
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1) What percentage chance do you give that the public is being deceived about Clinton's overall health either by failure to disclose any chronic health problems or by outright lies in regards to Clinton's health?

Above 50%.

2) Is the pneumonia event going to cause Clinton to lose voters?

Maybe, maybe not. While I won't come out and call her collapse a stunt per se, I will call it a happy accident because it will pull the more emotional voters to her. Whether the overtly compassionate outnumber the others more concerned about her fib remains to be seen.

3) Should Clinton withdraw if she has serious health concerns, and if she does, who would be the replacement candidate?

I think select people within the DNC know or knew exactly what is going on. And they pulled pushed others off anyways because of the power of cronyism.

As far as I understand the DNC cannot expel her based on health problems but since this involves critical withholding of information maybe there is a technicality somewhere. This episode is tragic because it took the suffering of an old lady to show the process is no longer functioning.

4) How damaging would it be to the Democrat Party should real health problems be revealed? Would her supporters dislike being deceived and believe it to be a conspiracy by the Democrat Party?


The damage will come when new candidates are selected over and above previous candidates which were expelled earlier in the process. At some point, the bias within the party council itself will be shown and people realize that not just anyone will be allowed to run simply by their ideas.


This post has been edited by Trouble: Sep 12 2016, 05:24 PM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 12 2016, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Sep 12 2016, 01:22 PM) *
2) Is the pneumonia event going to cause Clinton to lose voters?

Maybe, maybe not. While I won't come out and call her collapse a stunt per se, I will call it a happy accident because it will pull the more emotional voters to her. Whether the overtly compassionate outnumber the others more concerned about her fib remains to be seen.


I don't think there is any chance at all that this was a stunt.
And people do not want to put a person in charge that they perceive as feeble and "feel sorry for".
If a sympathy vote could buy an election, Ben Carson would have won by a landslide. He had everything...intelligence, kindness, clarity of vision. He is a truly good man.
What he also had, unfortunately, was a soft voice and a way of speaking that people perceived as weak.
They don't want to feel weakness in their leader, they want confidence in their leader.

So to answer the spirit of the topic questions, I think this is bad for Hillary's campaign.
I also think she has been hiding a serious health issue, and the stress of the campaign has made it worse. That's just speculation based on appearance.

Edited to add:
..who would be the replacement candidate?

Biden?
I think a lot of people would vote for Biden.
But it's the ith hour and there's no time to run a campaign.
On the flip side, in the age of the internet that might be a good thing.
At this point I think t's pretty likely that everyone who is going to vote for Hillary would probably vote for Biden if he were running instead.
And I think there are a lot of people who are adamantly anti-Hillary but don't particularly like Trump, and would vote for Biden instead.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 12 2016, 05:49 PM
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Trouble
post Sep 12 2016, 11:52 PM
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Late edit: I had the chance to discuss the pneumonia and the following point was brought up pertaining to question 1. The coverage of Hilliary stumbling, being caught and then dragged into the van was taken by a private citizen. Were there no professional news organizations present to catch this? Or was all the film left on the editing floor? If so, the number of people who buy into Trump's hostile and biased media rhetoric will jump. And media coverage from hence forth will be increasingly polarized.

QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 12 2016, 11:31 AM) *
I don't think there is any chance at all that this was a stunt.
And people do not want to put a person in charge that they perceive as feeble and "feel sorry for".
...

They don't want to feel weakness in their leader, they want confidence in their leader.


The people maybe but lobby groups want something different. I disagree, the media loves a candidate which can evoke pity, offer new opportunities to play the victim card and attend office once a week. This would be an ideal situation for a proactive, neocon led cabinet had the public not been privy to Clinton's stumble.

If Clinton stays and fights this it would not be hard to imagine the people angry with Trump's "conspiracies" about Clinton's health to switch over to Trump's supporters being "mean" about expecting her to be in office on a daily basis. I bet they'll add some misogyny in expecting "unrealistic" things from her in her time of need, you know, like traveling!

If Clinton does leave and I'm giving it less than 50/50 odds that she does, the media will still blame Trump for cruel and unusual behaviour and risk declaring all the electioneering up to this point null and void. Yes, I can identify that many people within both the Republican and Democrat parties with that much contempt for the people and the process.

It is darn near a monkey trap!

Oh and I think Mrs. Biden grabbed her husband's mouth and moved it up and down until he made the sound of "Joe says No" on a future presidential runs last year after the passing of Beau.

This post has been edited by Trouble: Sep 13 2016, 01:06 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 13 2016, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Sep 12 2016, 06:52 PM) *
Late edit: I had the chance to discuss the pneumonia and the following point was brought up pertaining to question 1. The coverage of Hilliary stumbling, being caught and then dragged into the van was taken by a private citizen. Were there no professional news organizations present to catch this? Or was all the film left on the editing floor? If so, the number of people who buy into Trump's hostile and biased media rhetoric will jump. And media coverage from hence forth will be increasingly polarized.


In one of the newscasts I heard she was led to an area that was sectioned off, where the media was forbidden access.
That seems likely...and that's the direction I would go if I had been in her position.

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AuthorMusician
post Sep 16 2016, 02:34 AM
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The problem this time has to do with age. Both major candidates are long in the tooth (fascinating old expression), which means that whoever wins will very likely have health problems while in office. Bummer.

As for honesty, Clinton's bar is far higher than Trump's, who has a habit of lying his butt off nearly every time he opens his mouth. But as has been pointed out, a good portion of the electorate either doesn't care or is unaware. They love who Trump seems to be, not who he is.

So many throughout history have risen to power exactly like Trump, and so many have become filthy rich the same way. Oh well, there's not a whole lot that can be done to stop it. People will always be this way, which is good for making sales. Gotta have that to make capitalism work.

I also think Biden is on the short list of replacements if Clinton has to drop out of the race, and that could be very bad for Trump. He's been entirely focused on crooked Hillary, and along comes big, bad Biden to draw all the Clinton haters away. This is because deep down, people know who Trump really is, and it isn't pretty. Without Hillary hatred, the guy will be left with his basket of deplorables, around 10-20% of his supporters.

In the end though, Clinton's relatively minor health problems won't make a significant difference, especially after Trump's heart attack and triple bypass surgery -- my speculation on what karma is about to do to him. Also his eating habits (KFC chicken donuts, taco grease bowls).

As for campaign secrets, where are Trump's tax returns and his real medical records? His so-called university was a scam, and it looks as if his foundation is too. But then, I guess his followers don't care.
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Gray Seal
post Sep 16 2016, 09:39 PM
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I do not know of any public appearances by Trump where he had a physician checking him. I do not know of any appearances by Trump where he was whisked away with a throng of protectors around to give him a visual barrier. I do not know of any falls Trump has had. I do not know of any odd facial contractions. Is Trump's team of protectors there trained and ready to handle a physical problem he has? Not that I have seen.

The health of the two does not seem similar to me. Yes, at 70 years old problems are more likely. In this case, there are already problems exhibited by Clinton and what those problems are has not been disclosed. Trump has not displayed any similar problems.

-------

My primary criticism of Clinton is that she continues to act in a shady manner. She has her public face which she struggles mightily for the public to see it and nothing else. I have no idea who she really is other than a con man and schemer. This cat and mouse game about her health is more of the same from Clinton.

Trump is different. He is a promoter and big mouth. I do not see a little man plotting an planning behind a screen with the purpose to fool the public. Say what sounds good for the moment? sure Not quite the same. Not that speaking nonsense is a good quality.

-------

What about the health of Stein, Johnson, or Castle? I think Johnson stands out as being the healthiest. Is health a deciding factor?

This post has been edited by Gray Seal: Sep 16 2016, 10:28 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 18 2016, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 16 2016, 05:39 PM) *
Trump is different. He is a promoter and big mouth. I do not see a little man plotting an planning behind a screen with the purpose to fool the public. Say what sounds good for the moment? sure Not quite the same. Not that speaking nonsense is a good quality.

Speaking nonsense isn't a good thing for a POTUS, such as admiring Putin and believing that a wall will actually work to secure borders. The list could go on, but those are the two big lies or misconceptions (to be nice) that occur to me right now.

Anyway, I've put up with Trump's sales pitch long enough to get the prize. Hey, where's my set of cheap luggage (think 1980s time-share pitch)?

Seems the choice is coming down to a politician (manipulates public for a living) or a moronic fool (starts unnecessary wars and kills the economy while stomping all over citizens' rights). Or how about a continuation of Obama versus a return to GWB?

Whatever, Trump's health is still a mystery. Sure, Clinton has had episodes and has given up the medical records or at least statements from her doctors/providers. Trump? For all we know, the guy's internals could be a real mess. We just don't know, other than opinions from a single doctor who looks like a street person in a lab coat he found in the trash.

But we do know Trump's an immature sack of doody poo. It'll be extremely funny if he wins, as the dimwitted cavalcade of third-grade logic rolls from his undisciplined mega-mouth. Clinton won't be nearly as entertaining, way too serious and wonky.

I'll take serious and wonky over immaturity any old day when it comes to selecting the next leader of the free world and our nation.

This post has been edited by AuthorMusician: Sep 18 2016, 06:45 PM
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Trouble
post Sep 19 2016, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen)
In one of the newscasts I heard she was led to an area that was sectioned off, where the media was forbidden access.
That seems likely...and that's the direction I would go if I had been in her position.


Of course she would seek privacy, that isn't the issue. How many bonafied credentialed news reporters were there and chose not to talk about it?


QUOTE(AuthorMusician)
Speaking nonsense isn't a good thing for a POTUS, such as admiring Putin and believing that a wall will actually work to secure borders. The list could go on, but those are the two big lies or misconceptions (to be nice) that occur to me right now.


There are many corruption scandals dogging Mrs. Clinton, enough to compromise her ability to govern as a leader. The corruption I argue is a larger issue than the "nonsense" you speak of. I would not have a hard time imagining that Mrs. Clinton's first day in office will mirror that of Richard Nixon's last day in office.

Yes, there has been lying on both sides. The people get that. However, a visceral nerve was touched when the Clinton camp issued one explanation after another about Mrs. Clinton's health. I think you'd be up against long odds dismissing the fall as rhetoric or digging for dirt. The video makes it clear there is something significantly wrong. After viewing the video, here are some obvious conclusions;

QUOTE(Charles Hugh Smith)
As you view the clip of Hillary collapsing, study the body language of her multiple handlers. I'm not referring to the Secret Sevice agents; I'm referring to her private handlers and aides. Note their extreme defensiveness about anyone seeing what was happening to Hillary. Their way of propping her up doesn't look like it was the first time they had to prop her up; their actions were practiced, automatic.

They are accustomed to propping her up and masking her true condition from the public. Study the clip; it's all there, in plain view.

Their hyper-wary posture was not just an attempt to shield the candidate from anyone seeing a moment of weakness; their over-protective watchfulness for "eyes on the candidate" is 24/7. Their only job is to mask the truth of Hillary's condition, whatever it may be.


AuthorMusician, if more information becomes available suggesting Mrs. Clinton has been withholding key health data and has been this way for years and still ran for office, the damage done to the democratic process will be extreme. The already highly divided American society will reach pre-civil war levels should we find out Mrs. Clinton and the Clinton foundation not only ran ill, but was the favourite choice of industry graft. The arguement is that of insider preference, a small but significant concept which allowed her to finance herself through this process in a way ordinary people cannot and steamroll over all other viable candidate on the DNC side. I can't help but think this gamed selection process happened more or less to the Republican side until what was essentially an independent took over and displaced Mr. Cruz because Trump was not hamstrung by Republican party consensus. Oh and he had deep pockets.

All current and future candidates must be courageous enough to endure an endless persona non grata stream of media tripe if they are ever to discuss meaningful issues. If the consensus breaker is Trump, fine, it is Sanders, fine, if it is a third party, fine too. See where I am going with this?

No one likes being played for a chump. If the system can be shown to produce ringers, confidence in the system will drop. Reality dictates we must acknowledge we're at that point, democratic republic or otherwise, we are all in decline and this is what democracy looks like for everyone at the present time.

QUOTE(Charles Hugh Smith)
This tells you everything you need to know about how Hillary will operate as President: there will be no honesty, transparency or truth, ever. Life for Hillary boils down to managing perceptions and hiding facts--inconvenient or otherwise. This is not a campaign strategy--it is her default mode of existence, the only way she knows how to operate.

Hillary's health may or may not be decisive, but what is decisive is how she has banished honesty, truthfulness, candor and transparency. The issue for Hillary and her handlers is not the facts of her health; it's how to manage public perceptions of her health in a satisfactory manner.

We don't just need to know whether Hillary suffers from conditions beyond allergies and pneumonia. What counts most is whether she is capable of being honest, forthright and truthful about legitimate, important issues. She has clearly proven that she is incapable of being honest and truthful about anything, very likely because she cannot distinguish between plain, simple truth and perception management.


I can only return to my earlier point that Mrs. Clinton has used to influence to deny a more viable candidate the opportunity to represent their country. Trust me, this point will not be lost on us 'foreigners' who've had to watch for fifteen plus years an aggressive strategy of foreign confrontation and now ask, 'For what, for this?' and be more than a little rattled.

This post has been edited by Trouble: Sep 19 2016, 01:27 AM
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Hobbes
post Sep 19 2016, 01:55 AM
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1) What percentage chance do you give that the public is being deceived about Clinton's overall health either by failure to disclose any chronic health problems or by outright lies in regards to Clinton's health?

Hmmmm. I personally don't think of it as more than she said, but then I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out it was something more.. If I had to put a number on it...maybe 20%?

2) Is the pneumonia event going to cause Clinton to lose voters?

I thought she gave a good response about it. The only people that matter are the independents...it won't sway the others either way. I don't think it will much, unless another episode occurs.

3) Should Clinton withdraw if she has serious health concerns, and if she does, who would be the replacement candidate?

At this point in the race....I don't think so. That would be more up to the Democratic Party, and their best interests would be around winning, and dealing with it after that.

4) How damaging would it be to the Democrat Party should real health problems be revealed? Would her supporters dislike being deceived and believe it to be a conspiracy by the Democrat Party?

It certainly wouldn't help her credibility, but then not sure it could go much lower, either. I think the concern would be more around whether she is actually healthy enough to be President.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 19 2016, 11:18 AM
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I don't know if anyone else has read some of the recently hacked Powell e mails, but it seems pretty clear the Democrats are aware that she hasn't looked healthy for a while.

QUOTE
“Not sure, but she has launched a story line that will be picked up. I think there’s something to it,” Mr. Powell wrote about Mrs. Clinton’s well-being at the time. “On HD tv she doesn’t look good. She is working herself to death. After speaking at the UN and doing the crummy press conference she flew to SF to go do a paid gig for EBay and then went to Marc’s house to get ready for a money dinner for the Clinton Foundation. I was in Marc’s second house behind it and ducked her so we didn’t turn loose another email story by being seen together. She then flew back east the next morning. She will turn 70 her first year in office.”

Mr Leeds, responding minutes later, said Democratic Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island also had concerns about Mrs. Clinton’s well-being.
“Sheldon Whitehouse, who is a huge Clinton supporter, said they were both giving speeches at the same event a few months back and she could barely climb the podium steps,” Mr. Leeds replied.


She really does look ill...and not just this one time. She has looked haggard for a while, especially considering she surely has a makeup artist in the back room available with a spray gun ready at all times. This isn't just a matter of "age". I've seen older people who looked far better. Yesterday I saw a yoga instructor who is 74 who looks a good 15 years younger than Hillary.


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AuthorMusician
post Sep 20 2016, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2016, 07:18 AM) *
She really does look ill...and not just this one time. She has looked haggard for a while, especially considering she surely has a makeup artist in the back room available with a spray gun ready at all times. This isn't just a matter of "age". I've seen older people who looked far better. Yesterday I saw a yoga instructor who is 74 who looks a good 15 years younger than Hillary.

Yeah, I met one of those types while in hospice. Lots of terminal cases look okay up until the final weeks, usually not more than a couple. This is the trouble with just going by looks when it comes to serious illnesses. I looked pretty terrible yet graduated hospice and am now rapidly regaining my strength, much to the surprise of the hospice nurse. She had not seen this happen before and was all set to administer the drugs given during the final days. They're still in the fridge, just in case.

Regarding hacked email, looks (heh) to me that people are getting tired of it all. But that is probably just me seeing what I want to see, i.e., being human.

There's a lot of that going around these days.
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Hobbes
post Sep 20 2016, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2016, 06:18 AM) *
She really does look ill...and not just this one time. She has looked haggard for a while, especially considering she surely has a makeup artist in the back room available with a spray gun ready at all times. This isn't just a matter of "age". I've seen older people who looked far better. Yesterday I saw a yoga instructor who is 74 who looks a good 15 years younger than Hillary.


I think both these scenarios are likely true. She probably did have walking pneumonia, but it wasn't a cause, it was a symptom. People tend to get sick when they are tired and overworked...their immune system is also lowered.

Obviously, no candidate is just going to come out and say that yes, they are exhausted, but I think in this election in particular it wouldn't make much difference. The votes are 'for' their candidate, they are 'against' the other. So, even if many Dems figured that it would likely really be a Tim Kaine Presidency, not a Clinton Presidency...would that change their vote? Not for most...

Trump's numbers might actually go UP if he had a major health scare. smile.gif

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