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> Shooting down of MH17, What should U.S. response be?
Hobbes
post Jul 17 2014, 11:16 PM
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Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 18 2014, 12:06 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 19 2017, 12:53 PM
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Has it really been 3 years?!? blink.gif

Thought I'd post an update on this one, since something new has come up. Don't see much reason to start a new thread even though this one is old....

The Joint investigation team

(Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine) have announced their decision to initiate domestic prosecutions in the Netherlands in relation to the incident.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jul 19 2017, 12:54 PM
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Gray Seal
post Sep 19 2018, 05:58 PM
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Here is an article which discusses evidence in the downing of Malaysian 777.

I am impressed by the information provided by Russia. It comes across as factual as opposed to tortured to fit a narrative.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 21 2018, 12:39 AM
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Up until this time, the Russian side had been shooting down all aircraft (the Ukrainians had air superiority so they didn't have to shoot anything down) on a regular basis.

So either:
1) The Russian side accidentally shot down this aircraft, thinking it was an enemy aircraft like the others....
or
2) The Ukrainians shot down an airliner (flying in a war zone they suggested everyone avoid) with an anti-aircraft missile they had up until now not used, on purpose...in the hope they could frame the Russians and make them look bad. They were so indiscrete that service members (who said this? I'd think they'd keep something like that on the DL but, heh word gets around, eh?) mentioned it casually over the radio....as often happens in these little capers.

Sorry, not buying it. Hanlons' razor applies.

Edited to add: I'm not sure how any of us could come to any conclusions on how "factual" ANY of this information is from our small vantage point.
If you are not guilty of a crime and have nothing to prove because no one is attempting to prosecute you for a crime, how much explaining are you going to do?
By contrast, if someone is attempting to hold you accountable for gross negligence you'll probably go through more CYA work.
It's no surprise that Russia has been more "forthcoming" with information (that unsurprisingly fits their narrative) here.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 21 2018, 01:29 PM
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droop224
post Sep 21 2018, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. P)
Edited to add: I'm not sure how any of us could come to any conclusions on how "factual" ANY of this information is from our small vantage point.
If you are not guilty of a crime and have nothing to prove because no one is attempting to prosecute you for a crime, how much explaining are you going to do?
Exactly, wait, what... If someone accuses you of a crime you didn't do you'll explain why you didn't do it, wouldn't you?? I mean if not then the opposite would be true, which is someone accuses you of a crime that you didn't do and you stay silent. In which case, to those who DON'T know, your silence would only serve as affirmation the accusation is true. You'd know the truth that it didn't happen, but you would also know, no one else knows that. That being said your first sentence and point is spot on for me. Who really know knows the truth.
I also think you did a decent job explaining the two possibilities. So my question is this. If option one is what happened why demonize Russia and the Eastern rebels? Is it not the war policy of most Western democracies, that killing civilians is "OK" (still not good) if its an accident when trying to defend yourself.

So
1. Ukraine did it and did so to use the incident as propaganda against Russia and the rebels or;2. The rebels mistakenly did it and we used the incident to propagandize our own citizens.
Either way, the incident will be used to mislead citizens of Western Democracies, the civil unrest will continue, thousands of human beings will continue to die, and our governments will not side with freedom and self determination, but rather with usurpers and America's best business interests. On this though.. it light support so i won't complain too much. Sorry rebels, your on your own.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Yesterday, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 21 2018, 09:57 AM) *
If someone accuses you of a crime you didn't do you'll explain why you didn't do it, wouldn't you??


Yes. In this case a multi-national investigation team was involved. So any ostensible "subterfuge" would require the direct participation of several nations, and the inspectors of those nations. It would take an extreme level of difficulty for the collaborative findings from the inspectors of multiple nations to support a single criminally nefarious, equivocal narrative to cover a war crime of mass proportions (as it would be if a passenger plane full of civilians were shot down for the express purpose of anti-Russian propaganda).
It just isn't practical...and that is an extreme understatement.
So again, I go with Hanlon's razor.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Yesterday, 12:49 AM
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Trouble
post Today, 04:24 AM
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The original recording had a sleepy translator that fell behind when it came to the digital format discussion but otherwise was watchable. The revised version has someone with a better grasp of english and was more to the point.

My issue was and still pertains to the disclosure of the radar data. I'm confident that American forces as well as at least one or two European countries were monitoring the situation that day. Disclosure on their part could either confirm or deny the Russian radar data. This would either confirm or deny the JIT's conclusion of the BUK's launch location of Kursk and we could all go about our day. The issue could have concluded either way years ago. The fact that it was not and allowed to linger does not bode well for the JIT's objectivity. That and the fact that Ukraine withheld air traffic controller data because it was allowed to be member of the steering committee boggles the mind.

With such important information it is hard to take what is this investigation seriously. I look at it this way. The JIT had a golden to opportunity to conclusively refute the Russian side of the information and blew it spectacularly. Further, if multiple parties had the same information and it was in opposition to the Russian radar data, the loss of face Russia would have suffered would be too tempting for anyone in the Pentagon to pass up. But it was passed up nonetheless.

One must come to the conclusion that the JIT's behaviour was either grossly incompetent or ideological. If ideology played a role then we must ask if the omissions were withheld to create confusion. What is omitted creates doubt and where there is doubt entire narratives can be maintained.
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