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> America on Fire, Police Brutality in America
droop224
post May 31 2020, 12:44 AM
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As the media age we live in continues to grow, images and videos continue to pop in our video feeds of police brutality grow along with it. In the pass few days we've seen a man killed by a cop who kneeled on his neck and other cops did their duty by making sure that no one prevented the officer from killing a citizen in broad daylight. We've seen multiple riots in a multitude of cities. Clever, but pointed memes such as Colin Kaepernick kneeling juxtapose against the officer kneeling on the neck of George Floyd. Most impressive thing I've seen. More Whites in my social media feeds speaking out. Not the perfunctory admission that there are "bad apples" but Whites coming to the conclusion of the systemic racism and racial biases in our law enforcement strategies. I'm not delusional enough to think that "a change is going to come" from this incident, but I feel that there may be people who previously were not to that the issues with policing in this nation is that the system itself is "bad." But is there systemic issues with out legal and law enforcement system? Are there solutions palatable to more Conservative leaning constituency? If so, what are the solutions that can bridge the divide?

Questions for debate.

Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jun 1 2020, 02:39 AM
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Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

I don't know enough to answer this.

What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

I think police don't have enough training. These incidences seem to have the same underlying problem...
The LEOs don't appear to know how to safely restrain a person.
Here's another one that happened in Chicago, just a couple of months ago:

https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/...line-station%2F

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jun 1 2020, 03:04 AM
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Trouble
post Jun 2 2020, 02:05 AM
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Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

If the statistic is accurate, 400 other lives were lost before George Floyd lost his this year. I don't know if it was coincidental or not that terror legislation gave police departments freer reign over when and how to use violence. The good news is even those "Conservative leaning constituencies" are considering if a roll back of legal authourity might be in order.

While I can agree there are systemic issues inside police departments deconstructing them may prove a challenge during a pandemic. Back to work legislation was not fully enacted across all states. We already had a large. restless population of unemployed people (25-30% figures depending on the state) which I suspect will move this issue beyond that of just race.

What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

There may not be the simplest answer, but off the top of my head;

First, given the number of cities involved and the involvement of outside groups like Antifa, keeping the issue simple and on point may be a difficult task. To answer your question, the legal term being bandied about is "qualified immunity". As of this writing, I only found an Independent, one Justin Amash who is currently considering challenging qualified immunity for police forces. Obviously the more death and property damage which occurs, the less likely police departments would consider a reduction in police powers. So, keeping the issue from being hijacked by partisan democrats, self serving media, or any other entity hijacking/morphing the issue should be paramount. Why does this matter? Have you seen Barr's upcoming pre-crime legislation? Barr's bill has the potential to upend domestic law the same way the Military Commissions Act turned universal rights upside down.

Second, can you recommend a group in starting a dialog? If communities of colour begin distancing themselves from the arsonists, the more they have to gain. They have legitimate concerns which are not aided in burning things structures to the ground. With this many cities up in arms someone needs to deescalate because let's face it, everyone in law enforcement is going to be anxious right now. To me it seems obvious that someone present themselves as interested in starting a dialog.

Lastly, beware wary of any new legislation involving the word "terrorism". The moment the term can be casually applied in a domestic setting the more leniency will be applied to police forces from the judiciary.
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Trouble
post Jun 4 2020, 05:20 AM
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Update, I had hoped to convey that police interactions have been becoming ever more aggressive for over two decades in my prior comment. IE a gradual process starting before Trump. Therefore making demands of the executive which is only peripherally involved should be more limited than making changes to individual states.

With that said one of the hallmarks of the Trump presidency is he is a lightning rod for criticism whether deserved or not. I have been keeping an eye out for a bait and switch. That is, the issue stops being about constabulary protocol and becomes purely political as in holding everything accountable to the President. The danger is of course the fine details of the case get lost and the interest ends at the removal of a sitting President. I didn't have to wait long for someone to make the issue about the President. Here is a curiously timed article going exactly where I had hoped the issue would not go. "James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution".

I am confident there will now be many more articles which will attempt to conflate the issue. You have my sympathies.

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droop224
post Jun 6 2020, 01:43 AM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Jun 3 2020, 11:20 PM) *
Update, I had hoped to convey that police interactions have been becoming ever more aggressive for over two decades in my prior comment. IE a gradual process starting before Trump. Therefore making demands of the executive which is only peripherally involved should be more limited than making changes to individual states.

With that said one of the hallmarks of the Trump presidency is he is a lightning rod for criticism whether deserved or not. I have been keeping an eye out for a bait and switch. That is, the issue stops being about constabulary protocol and becomes purely political as in holding everything accountable to the President. The danger is of course the fine details of the case get lost and the interest ends at the removal of a sitting President. I didn't have to wait long for someone to make the issue about the President. Here is a curiously timed article going exactly where I had hoped the issue would not go. "James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution".

I am confident there will now be many more articles which will attempt to conflate the issue. You have my sympathies.

Trump gets criticized for the things he says and does, do you need the quotes and videos. He just made a photo op out of tear gassing protesters and holding a bible.

I think the brutality of police "seems" to be increasing as technology increases. It's making their actions immediately viewable to millions of consumers who then broadcast it. But their violent behavior has be documented for much more than 2 decades. That being said, Trump is not the reason there is systemic abuse as President. He is a part of the problem why their is systemic abuse, as a citizen that thinks its ok to have a violent police force we have and that just a few bad apples take it too far.

Mrs P
QUOTE
I think police don't have enough training. These incidences seem to have the same underlying problem...
The LEOs don't appear to know how to safely restrain a person.
I think quite the opposite. I think the police are acting in the way they are trained to act. They are being trained to act aggressively and deadly. I think there is a percentage of Americans that agree with this strong militant posture. Police are being trained to react with deadly when their life is in immediate danger. They are being trained to act with overwhelming force from the beginning to reduce the chance of their lives being put in danger.

I'm not going to say this perfect but I saw meme that said: "We live place where the trained police officer will yell commands with a gun aimed at you, and the untrained civilian should remain calm while executing those instructions" And that's the reality you see time and time again even when no one dies. You see a video you don't see the detained with a gun or a knife, but you see a cop with his gun out.
Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?
I believe so. I can remember waaaay back to the first brutality video I can remember. Rodney King. Four White men beat one Black man near to death. Those four White men, because of the outrage and they were caught on camera, went to trial. How many cops do you see standing around charged with nothing. Charge em from here on out. This is the most important reform we need to make the necessary changes. You stand around as a law officer while your fellow officer brutalizes, maims, or kills another citizen, you go to jail for accessory.

Do this until the culture changes. Until police no longer want to be teamed up with hot headed over bearing teams of police officers that endanger their ability to get home to their family because they might cause them to go to jail. Problem now, too many LEO have a code that says their fraternity is above the law because they protect the law. Too long has our society allowed them to drink their own Kool-Aid.




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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jun 14 2020, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Jun 5 2020, 09:43 PM) *
Mrs P
QUOTE
I think police don't have enough training. These incidences seem to have the same underlying problem...
The LEOs don't appear to know how to safely restrain a person.
I think quite the opposite. I think the police are acting in the way they are trained to act. They are being trained to act aggressively and deadly. I think there is a percentage of Americans that agree with this strong militant posture. Police are being trained to react with deadly when their life is in immediate danger. They are being trained to act with overwhelming force from the beginning to reduce the chance of their lives being put in danger.


I think it is going to be very difficult to field a police force with individuals who do not value their own lives.
Iím not sure that is a reasonable goal.
People have to volunteer to do this job. It is inherently dangerous.
I don't know if I posted about it at the time, but way back when I lived in las vegas we had a neighbor who was a cop.
One day, he just upped the whole family and moved away without preamble.
He hadn't even put the house up for sale, just saw something that spooked him so badly he had to leave.
(which was, as a side note, pretty disturbing to me as a resident of that community)

I do agree when a number of LEOs are standing and watching a person kneed in the neck by another LEO and they do nothing, this is probably not a training problem but a culture/leadership problem. I've never read it, but apparently a retired LEO (from Minneapolis' police department) wrote a book called "Walking with the Devil" or some such, about how the police department protected their own. The president of the police union went on social media and publicly and told him he was a rat and there was a reason law enforcement didn't arrive last time he reported a burglary. Think the unions in particular have to go. Police are in positions of public security and public trust, they should not have unions.

It is not an easy problem.
On the one hand, you want police to have pride in their job...
on the other itís very difficult to take a 19 year old person, give him/her a gun and car and the power of law enforcement, and expect that person to be a mature perfect arbiter of the law without ego or anything getting in the way.
No law enforcement is not an option. And cowed law enforcement is probably worse than none.

Even at our base "ego" was a problem with the military police.
Overall they were good, but we'd get calls all the time (though nothing anywhere near brutality level stuff).
In the case of our last base, my spouse did invest in police training (off base)...because they truly had not been trained to avoid violence in any effective way.
He had to take money from other programs to do it, but thought it was worth it.

Another thing I believe helps (or would help) is law enforcement closer to community level. When people live and raise their children within a community they understand it better and get along better. The police station of our last base was set within the community, and some of the MPs lived in the surrounding houses. It helped I think.
Federales (by contrast to community policemen) have a lot of power, and are often removed from the locations they serve, and I think those variables can be a recipe for trouble.

We need police officers. And, candidly, crime can pay pretty damn well so we should support them if we donít want the criminals to run things and make the rules.
For example, I just got a letter in the mail to a former resident of my home. It was addressed to ď(his first name) Custom flooringĒ.
25 year old carpet in the bathrooms when we moved in.
He didnít do custom flooring, that was his front.
Heís living in Hawaii now.

Edited to add: Just had a conversation about "community policing" with my son and he had a good point. Now that everyone moves every 3 years or so that probably won't make as much of a difference as I would hope.

Edited again to add: Found a (small) study which seems to indicate community policing does have a positive impact.
Here: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/40/19894

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jun 16 2020, 02:51 PM
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droop224
post Jun 17 2020, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE
I think it is going to be very difficult to field a police force with individuals who do not value their own lives.
Iím not sure that is a reasonable goal.


See that's a poor way to start a post, IMO. It sets up the strawman that has already exist in your mind. No one argues that police officers should not value their own lives. So no it's not a reasonable goal nor is it a goal that that either side wants.

One side seems to want cops to use deadly force when they are in imminent danger of themselves being killed. The other side wants cops to have the right to kill when they feel they are in mortal danger.

One side wants cops to have evidence that they were in danger or mortal danger, while the other side wants "you to put yourself in their shoes" cause "how was the officer supposed to know the cell phone wasn't a gun?" Its dark right? or its something in the waistline?

You're not being fair to the people who seek reform or even to yourself in trying to truly understand the reform being demanded by creating this false narrative.

QUOTE
I do agree when a number of LEOs are standing and watching a person kneed in the neck by another LEO and they do nothing, this is probably not a training problem but a culture/leadership problem. I've never read it, but apparently a retired LEO (from Minneapolis' police department) wrote a book called "Walking with the Devil" or some such, about how the police department protected their own. The president of the police union went on social media and publicly and told him he was a rat and there was a reason law enforcement didn't arrive last time he reported a burglary. Think the unions in particular have to go. Police are in positions of public security and public trust, they should not have unions.
Oh, it is a training problem, a leadership problem, a cultural problem and a systemic problem. There is more than enough to go around. but one thing it is not... is a union problem.

What the union going to do when they go broke trying to defend masses of officers who stand around watching the abuse of a citizen. You, like many others, want to be very specific about the George Floyd case, but I am think so much broader. That's why I showed the Rodney King video. 4 cops got prosecuted, why? Is it because only prosecution that mattered is the one swinging the baton. That's not how the law works for citizens of this country. If i'm with my homie and he robs a liquor store and I drive off... you understand what happens right?

See quite the opposite of what your narrative originally puts forth. I WANT the cop to value his life. I need the officer to value his life more than their pride, their ego, their pretentions "blue wall\curtain\shield" more than their tribalism gang mentality they have formed. I want them to value their lives so much that when they get that edge to get loose they think twice. I want them to value their life that they fear going to jail worst than dying. They gonna lose their pension, their family and be behind bars. I want the officers that witness criminal acts of their partners to value their lives so much that they aren't going to standby dumbfounded why some officer puts some one in a rear-naked chokehold. The system has to get serious about prosecuting police and police witnesses that don't come forward. Whats hard to understand, if the cops are calling other cops "rats" then the cops are a barrel of snakes. I want the police to value their lives so much that their first concern is NOT "I got to make it home to my family" Their first concern is not "if it got to be me or him, its him" Their first concern is what can I do to end this peacefully with as little damge as possible \so I don't go to jail. That's the reform we need.

So, now do you see how much the other side wants cops to value their lives?

QUOTE
On the one hand, you want police to have pride in their job...
Why do I want this?

QUOTE
Even at our base "ego" was a problem with the military police.
Overall they were good, but we'd get calls all the time (though nothing anywhere near brutality level stuff).
In the case of our last base, my spouse did invest in police training (off base)...because they truly had not been trained to avoid violence in any effective way.
He had to take money from other programs to do it, but thought it was worth it.


mrsparkle.gif On a military base? I dare say "ego" is the problem with 95% of everything and everyone. But I digress. No allow me to digress further "A new Earth" by Eckart Tolle is a great book in awakening my understanding of ego. That being said good on Mr P!

The problem is that the systemic issue you discuss is wide spread.

QUOTE
We need police officers. And, candidly, crime can pay pretty damn well so we should support them if we donít want the criminals to run things and make the rules.
What does this mean. We do support our LEO's, we just don't support them harassing, beating, and/or killing us. I wonder, when you say "support" do you want us to give cops the benefit of the doubt when they kill an American citizens?


QUOTE
Edited to add: Just had a conversation about "community policing" with my son and he had a good point. Now that everyone moves every 3 years or so that probably won't make as much of a difference as I would hope.

Edited again to add: Found a (small) study which seems to indicate community policing does have a positive impact.
Here: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/40/19894
If we get past our "egos", fears and prejudices, humanity will work for both sides!! Or you can just watch "The Wire" and figure this out!! w00t.gif


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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jun 17 2020, 02:03 PM
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Droop,
If you don't even understand why we should have police officers take personal pride in their job, we're not starting from a position where anything is going to be accomplished discussing it here.
Do you want to be a police officer and show them how it's done?
No?
Okay, carry on.

Edited to add:
We could liken this to other professions as an example:
Who makes a better healthcare provider? One with pride in his/her job or one who just doesn't care?
How about a teacher?
Now add danger and a position of public trust.
Yes, we want these people not to give a damn. That will make them much better at their job.
'nuff said.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jun 17 2020, 02:33 PM
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droop224
post Jun 17 2020, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jun 17 2020, 08:03 AM) *
Droop,
If you don't even understand why we should have police officers take personal pride in their job, we're not starting from a position where anything is going to be accomplished discussing it here.
Do you want to be a police officer and show them how it's done?
No?
Okay, carry on.

Edited to add:
We could liken this to other professions as an example:
Who makes a better healthcare provider? One with pride in his/her job or one who just doesn't care?
How about a teacher?
Now add danger and a position of public trust.
Yes, we want these people not to give a damn. That will make them much better at their job.
'nuff said.

Tsk-tsk. Temper, temper. Let's try by asking a basic question. Does "pride" mean "care" in your opinion? That's not my definition of Pride. Pride is VERY complex, and can be more detrimental than positive in many many circumstances. In fact in Judeo Christian values system(rhetorical: are you a Christian?) and other religious, philosophical, it is considered a sin. One of the worst sins. There is a reason why. Its because pride is not as simple as caring about something.
I think cops should care about their jobs, when that job is protecting the community. Yes i do. I do NOT think police should take pride in being police, because i believe police having pride in being police hinder them from caring about protecting their community. Now, is that a mutual place where we can start?

Allow me to address the tangent you went on: Do i want to be a cop? No, Nope, couldn't pay me to sell my soul. Now, you being you might be reacting to that comment thinking that i am calling cops soulless or something. They are not. They are part of a soulless system. At the far ends of policing issues we have the "few bad apples" and "Abusive oppressive system" crowds. I think many people feel both exist, but the way we weight it will be different due to a variety of social, economical, and\or political factors.

Fair to say, left wing puts more weight on the system, while right wing tends to see problems as generally a bad apple here and there. You know which side i'm on. As such, I'm humble!! I don't think i could make it through the training, the OJT, and years of experience on the job within this current system and not in part have the current culture of policing affect my psyche. I won't be as susceptible to group think as others, I'm sure, but i'd be affected just because my sheer desire to fit in and not be an outcast.
Case and Point to exemplify some of this systemic training, is the George Floyd case. However since my proceeding question is a hypothetical you'll have to be on your best "honor system hat" to answer, even if that answer is rhetorical. Lets says George Floyd doesn't die. That's where we can identify the corruption of the system. What happens if the bystander recording decides not to not record but rather throw himself past the Asian officer and physically attacks the cop killing George Floyd. That's where we see the corruption. Every State has carefully worded language that would stop a citizen from protecting a citizen from brutalizing officers. Again, what if the rookie officers, tackled their training Sgt. preventing George Floyd death? What would happen to them with out a dead George Floyd. Well they didn't stop him so they may lose their life, if they did stop them they most certainly would have lost their career. Again if we are willing to look past the death and the actions that led up, we see the systemic issues. If George Floyd lives then there is NO narrative that he was being killed. The narrative is he was being restrained. So in any scenario where George Floyd lives there is no... "attempted murder". There is the narrative where a seasoned veteran was restraining someone high on drugs...and a bystander attacks the officer... or the rookies couldn't handle the job. And what type of Americans would have supported this narrative?? Well we know the answer to that in part; it would be the same Americans that currently support the narratives of police officer over complainants. And they too are part of the system we need to reform.

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droop224
post Jun 24 2020, 03:40 AM
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I ask is it really a few bad apples? What's the threshold for admitting a systemic problem with policing in this nation?
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jun 24 2020, 02:20 PM
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I'm not under the impression there is not a systemic problem, Droop.
But I don't think your solutions will bring anything better....because it already (QED) difficult to find good people to do this job.
It's not unlike a military recruitment problem.

I've never been the one to say folks should have to rely on the police, and the police are infallible.
You'll recall this is the very reason our family has firearms.

Case in point, here:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/06/teen-...-death-threats/
Teen who makes teddy bears for children of fallen LEOs is receiving death threats.

People are (insert expletive of choice). Who would want the job of policing in really dangerous areas where they are most needed?
Who wants to subject their families to this kind of thing?
I know someone married to a police officer and they're worried about folks following the officers home and trying to find out their addresses to target their families.

That is a very big problem, which is why I mention "taking pride in the job".
But there's no way to get that in the current climate.
Yet we need them. So above, I've tried to mention some potential solutions.

Edited to add: And yes the police unions are a problem because they protect bad cops, so they can't fire them (unless and until they do something prosecution worthy).
Unions can be a very large problem for positions of public trust/security, and this is not exclusive to LEOs. There was a (female) captain pilot a while back with a history of sketchy behavior that finally resulted in an accident (no fatalities, thank God)...the airline had to essentially pay her off to "retire early".

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jun 24 2020, 04:43 PM
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droop224
post Jun 25 2020, 12:44 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jun 24 2020, 08:20 AM) *
And yes the police unions are a problem because they protect bad cops, so they can't fire them (unless and until they do something prosecution worthy).
Well... prosecute them. Let's be clear here, no one is out marching on the streets screaming for police reforms because of clerical issues. People are upset and demanding reforms because the police are out here brutalizing, maiming, and killing our citizens WITH impunity. Prosecute them!

QUOTE
But I don't think your solutions will bring anything better....because it already (QED) difficult to find good people to do this job.
It's not unlike a military recruitment problem.
So the solution is going after unions?? I'm not saying police unions aren't a problem I'm just saying out of the list of systemic problems we need to change the Union is one of the smallest and may fix itself if we fixed the corruption of police due to training and OJT. I went to FLETC LEO training and listened to a trainer give instruction on what are the proper things to say if you were to use lethal force and you kill someone so you won't get in trouble.
If you noticed I put up the Rodney King video earlier with a question, should the officers that watched Rodney King be beat be charged as accomplices? What is your answer? Is that the bad solution I have, getting rid of cops that would help or just STAND AROUND when their fellow officer lets off steam?

Prosecution will not make cops quit before it makes cops think about their families and careers and act within the confines of the law. You know, the same thing we have to do. I don't get to have a bad day and punch people in the face because they talking to me "with disrespect".

You don't have a problem getting quality people in the military nor the police department. You have a problem, particularly in the police department, of people becoming corrupt in training and while working the job.

QUOTE
People are (insert expletive of choice). Who would want the job of policing in really dangerous areas where they are most needed?
Who wants to subject their families to this kind of thing?
I know someone married to a police officer and they're worried about folks following the officers home and trying to find out their addresses to target their families.


You're "people". Your family are "people". The people you care about most in the world are just "people" to the vast majority of other "people." I'm "people", my kids and wife are "people", the cops are "people". So what is the (insert expletive of choice) you see when you look at the "people" the you hold dearest? I hope you can get the point i am trying to make here.

Recruiting issues in terms of "quality" recruiting of police may be an issue. But the reason may very well be their behavior. You have a great portion of this country, who see police as immoral agents in an amoral system. And they think this not just because "the media" much of it comes from seeing a continuous bombardment of these immoral actions all over the country and the lack of accountability that follows. And PRIDE Mrs. P is why police can't understand this. That's what I mean when I discuss pride. And you see this video after video, no matter the city or county or race of the police officer. Honestly you see it within your family members that become LEOs. I seen it happen with my nephew right in front of my eyes. The hubris, the arrogance, the sense of entitlement, the xenophobia and self victimization. Pride.


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post Jun 25 2020, 07:47 AM
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Questions for debate.

Are there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

Quite possibly yes. The USA is a vast multiculture with so many ethnic and cultural divisions that the police are by necessity forced to adopt an esprit de corpst in order to function at all.

A natural consequence of American culture would be the closed ranks and a siege mentality which makes allowances for police brutality. I think you will get the same thing no matter how diverse you make the American police because they will always have to deal with the American public.


What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

Given the propensity to belligerence in the American character and the proliferation of firearms in American society, I don't see how you can have a police force which differs to any great deree than what you already have.

There is endless footage of Americans encountering the police and in the vast majority of those cases which end in some kind of drama, the hysterical behaviour on behalf of the people being arrested is noticable for its extremity. The refusal to comply, the repeated questioining of authority and the physical resistance all demonstrate what American police are obliged to endure. It is unsurprising how often these confrontations end in violence when members of the public feel they have the moral right to act as if the police are simply 'out to get them'.

The only course of action I would suggest, that might alleviate the risk of violent confrontation is a greater emphasis on crisis management training for police officers. I doubt it would have any great effect though. The American public are far too selfish.

This post has been edited by moif: Jun 25 2020, 08:39 AM
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Syfir
post Jul 1 2020, 08:04 AM
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Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

To be honest I think that there are systematic problems with America that are causing issues on both sides of the line. People aren't respecting authority and authority that isn't acting in a way that deserves respect. Sometimes it seems like a chicken and egg question, which came first?

I am going to actually place the majority of the blame somewhere else though. I blame the media. They jump on any story they can use to inflame the imagination. Because it generates clicks (or sells papers for the old school among us). Too often they are presenting a story with their agenda driving the information rather than the facts. The rash of reporting on "peaceful protests" that result in "police brutality" that actually include arson, gunshots, assaults, vandalism, and more is just one of the examples of this.

I have yet to see one credible report of anyone claiming that George Floyd's death was justified or that it was his own fault. Nothing he had done that day deserved the treatment he received. The police officers involved have all been charged with crimes up to and including murder. It appears that George Floyd is getting justice as everyone is demanding. And yet the country exploded.

Why? Not because of actual police brutality. It is happening because of the idea of systematic, unpunished police brutality. The myth that police brutality is so ingrained in our country that every death involving police is judged in the harshest light. The police are not given the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. They are the police so they are guilty. Yet the "victim" is given the all the benefits the police are denied.

The death of Michael Brown in Ferguson Missouri for example. He was immediately judged to be a victim of police brutality and Officer Darren Wilson was labeled a brutal, racist cop. Yet the investigation determined that not only was there not enough evidence of wrongdoing on Officer Wilson's part, but that some witnesses feared reprisals from the community for providing evidence that supported Wilson's account. nytimes.com

Is there police brutality? Yes. Is it systematic. No.

Are there improvements that can be made? If there is a perfect system in the world I have yet to see it. That is what management is for. (In this case Police Chiefs, Mayors, whatever oversight is in place) They are there to review the actions of the police and implement improvements.

Anyone that says that there is a one size fits all change that should be made to policing in the United States is either an idiot or trying to sell you something.

Police brutality is already illegal. If it isn't being rooted out by those in charge then those in charge need to be replaced.

What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

The main one is for people to start respecting the police. Obeying the police. There is a time and place to challenge the police officer's interpretation of events. Except for a very small percentage of events, that time and place is "after" and "somewhere else".

A secondary one is that the media needs to stop with the yellow journalism. Report the facts as you get them and investigate the sources yourself. Quit slanting your reporting to fit your agenda. Quit presenting your opinion as facts. Quit trying to scare people. Scared people react rather than think. And that is true for both suspects and police. Per the FBI:
QUOTE
Twenty-seven law enforcement officers have been reported feloniously killed in 2020. During the previous year for the same time period, 21 officers were feloniously killed. At the time the 27 law enforcement officers were fatally wounded in 2020:

*Five were victims of an ambush (entrapment/premeditation)
*One was a victim of an unprovoked attack
fbi.gov

How many pictures have we seen in the last few weeks showing rows of police stoically standing with protesters screaming in their faces? Screaming that they hope they get killed? So when a Detroit PD cruiser is surrounded by protesters who climb on the vehicle and break the rear window, is it any surprise that the police drive through the protesters to escape? cnn.com

I'm just relieved that there haven't been more incidents.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 1 2020, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE(Syfir @ Jul 1 2020, 04:04 AM) *
How many pictures have we seen in the last few weeks showing rows of police stoically standing with protesters screaming in their faces? Screaming that they hope they get killed? So when a Detroit PD cruiser is surrounded by protesters who climb on the vehicle and break the rear window, is it any surprise that the police drive through the protesters to escape? cnn.com

I'm just relieved that there haven't been more incidents.


I saw that, too.
What was most interesting to me was the interpretation of that event by two sides who seemed to see completely different things.
This video was forwarded by people who actually thought it was unjustified to drive out of situation where a violent mob has descended on the car and broke the rear window.
Not only that...it was retweeted hundreds of times by folks who thought the police officer in the car was in the wrong.

Side note: it looked like there wasn't a single black person in that entire mob, and the police force in Detroit is over 50 percent black officers.


Edited to add: The veneer of civilization can be pretty thin. Unlike military, police aren't obligated to serve. They can just walk out.

Edited again to add: There are far too many crazies running around also. Exhibit A: https://www.facebook.com/realpeterock/video...49391642218844/

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jul 2 2020, 01:59 PM
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Looms
post Jul 4 2020, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ May 30 2020, 07:44 PM) *
As the media age we live in continues to grow, images and videos continue to pop in our video feeds of police brutality grow along with it. In the pass few days we've seen a man killed by a cop who kneeled on his neck and other cops did their duty by making sure that no one prevented the officer from killing a citizen in broad daylight. We've seen multiple riots in a multitude of cities. Clever, but pointed memes such as Colin Kaepernick kneeling juxtapose against the officer kneeling on the neck of George Floyd. Most impressive thing I've seen. More Whites in my social media feeds speaking out. Not the perfunctory admission that there are "bad apples" but Whites coming to the conclusion of the systemic racism and racial biases in our law enforcement strategies. I'm not delusional enough to think that "a change is going to come" from this incident, but I feel that there may be people who previously were not to that the issues with policing in this nation is that the system itself is "bad." But is there systemic issues with out legal and law enforcement system? Are there solutions palatable to more Conservative leaning constituency? If so, what are the solutions that can bridge the divide?

Questions for debate.

It's damn good to see this site back up. I really thought that was it.

Is there systemic issues within policing strategies that make allowances for police brutality?

Yes. There is the systemic systematic systemicism of institutional structures and structural institutions. The more times we repeat these pointless buzzwords, the closer we are to nirvana.

What are strategies that we can employ as a nation to further reduce the possibility of police killing unarmed suspects in this nation?

We can try having less crime? Maybe less drunken idiots stealing tasers from cops and shooting them at them? We can have less pointless laws like the war on drugs and gun laws. Better targeted policing, depending on the needs of the area. These shouldn't be partisan issues. Better training. But I have to ask two questions:

1) Further reduce to what? What number is the target?
2) Are we only going to discuss "the nation" in the abstract or are we going to discuss the actual crime rates? Neither of us is a virgin, and this is most certainly not prom night.

There's no systemic racism or racial biases. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Absolutely nobody looked at that idiot kneeling on George Floyd's neck for 9 minutes and said that it seems reasonable (especially without even rolling him over to check on him when he couldn't breath). But you know what there are? Crime rates. Oh, and fires. There's those too. And if you want to have that conversation, I'll be happy to.
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