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> Remaining friends with Trump supporters, good idea?, Why hang with a fascist?
CruisingRam
post May 2 2017, 02:51 AM
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This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.

Considering that Trump literally lies outright and the right wing seems to not really care, and when I mean lie- there is no nuance or reality to it whatsoever, Not debatable points, nothing to do with facts- just makes crap up and it's okay. Same with Fox news. So there doesn't seem to be much point in debating a right winger anymore, just resist them, and this has been pretty much coming since Reagan decided to go the Christo-facsist way with conservatism in America. He has taken even to going about calling the press that fact check him "the lying press" (Hitler: Luggenpresse)

Some of the important elements of fascism:


1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)

3) The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. (Reagan started this, and fox news has run with it, pretty much the entire Republican party is completely fascist in this regard, as is many on this board now)

4) A strong sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary."

5) Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." (MURICA!)

6) Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. (Making America great again! Though modern times women can be fascist leaders- Sarah Palin, Ann Coultier, Margeret Thatcher)

7) "The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. (Trump has called for violence against his opponent several times)

Another important aspect is "the rebirth myth"- "Making America great again"- I think it is just as important as anti-liberalism in fact. Without it, you don't have fascism able to gain power from what I have seen.

Another set of definitions of fascism, which pretty much are ticked off one by one by anyone that even remotely supports the republican party today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: May 2 2017, 02:55 AM
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Eeyore
post Jul 14 2017, 01:25 PM
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@AM: A couple of additional thoughts. I think painting all Trump supporters with the same brush is a valueless exercise, I believe that most voters including myself vote against what they think is a dangerous political party that pulls the party in a downward direction. In other words, of the nearly 50% of the American voters that voted for Trump on election day, most were voting against the democratic party.

I will transition to my second point with an anecdote from this spring. I want out with a group of people celebrating a birthday that made me feel very old. It was a millenial/hipster tour of south Nashville eateries and craft beer vendors. At one point the birthday girl found out that a mutual friend voted for Trump. Birthday girl went in for the attack and listed her diatribe of all of the things that Trump stands for and did that no human being should ever receive one vote for. She asked for our friends reasons for voting for Trump. He gave some. She then proceeded to send him bills for two separate rounds of drinks each over $50 as punishment for the way he voted.

My point is this. If the democratic party or any party is going to be effective against the anti-rational and anti-intellectual rhetoric that propelled Trump to victory, then they need to model what they makes them the better choice. Politicians need to oppose on grounds of action and policy and stick with the criticism of items they find worthy of criticizing. This is as opposed to the outrage machine that has become the standard sound as the news cycle dominates the topic of the present 15 minutes. Joining the outrage machine is to join the anti-rational side of the argument. Empty rhetoric in response often makes an initial untrue assertion become or appear true.

Additionally, the media needs to do the same. Re-embrace the standards of professional journalism and examine its problems with selection bias and treating celbretainment as news. The free press needs to fact-check and report the news objectively and allow the longer march of time to allow events to digest into history. (And historians need to use their professional in approaching examinations of the Trump presidency.) The charges of fake news are in some ways healthy for the national news media.

To fight fire with fire is to do politics as irrational rhetoric and mass rally-crying in reverse. Reporting and doing talk shows in a way that starts with the assumption of the absurdity of the Trump administration and presenting to the American audience as if they all feel that the Turmp presidency is an impeachable fraud will only end up with an audience that dislikes Trump.

We need to model good democracy and journalism to counter the anti-intellectual and anti-rational trends afoot in international politics. Stand up loudly when democracy is not being practiced right. Speak out loudly when the free press is under assault. We need need to create an anti movement that mimics the same mass rally and doesn't listen to or acknowledge merit on the other side.

The premise of this thread is to good into ostrich mode and join the ridiculousness in our polity.
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AuthorMusician
post Jul 14 2017, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 14 2017, 09:25 AM) *
@AM: A couple of additional thoughts. I think painting all Trump supporters with the same brush is a valueless exercise, I believe that most voters including myself vote against what they think is a dangerous political party that pulls the party in a downward direction. In other words, of the nearly 50% of the American voters that voted for Trump on election day, most were voting against the democratic party.

To put a finer point on this, I vote both for the Democratic Party platform points and against the Republican Party platform points. I don't vote for or against personalities very often, but that is true about Trump versus Clinton. I voted both for Clinton as a person and against Trump as a person. One is the Good Witch of the South (Glinda, The Wizard of Oz) and the other is, um, not a very good human being.
QUOTE
I will transition to my second point with an anecdote from this spring. I want out with a group of people celebrating a birthday that made me feel very old. It was a millenial/hipster tour of south Nashville eateries and craft beer vendors. At one point the birthday girl found out that a mutual friend voted for Trump. Birthday girl went in for the attack and listed her diatribe of all of the things that Trump stands for and did that no human being should ever receive one vote for. She asked for our friends reasons for voting for Trump. He gave some. She then proceeded to send him bills for two separate rounds of drinks each over $50 as punishment for the way he voted.

My point is this. If the democratic party or any party is going to be effective against the anti-rational and anti-intellectual rhetoric that propelled Trump to victory, then they need to model what they makes them the better choice. Politicians need to oppose on grounds of action and policy and stick with the criticism of items they find worthy of criticizing. This is as opposed to the outrage machine that has become the standard sound as the news cycle dominates the topic of the present 15 minutes. Joining the outrage machine is to join the anti-rational side of the argument. Empty rhetoric in response often makes an initial untrue assertion become or appear true.

There's merit to this criticism of party politics, but history has shown that muck slinging and telling whoppers is as much a part of it as voting is a part of a democratic republic. We have this thing called the Electoral College that elected Trump, so arguing about how to attract more people to vote for a party stops making sense under certain circumstances. Trump's massive loss in the popular vote indicates that those certain circumstances happened in 2016.
QUOTE
Additionally, the media needs to do the same. Re-embrace the standards of professional journalism and examine its problems with selection bias and treating celbretainment as news. The free press needs to fact-check and report the news objectively and allow the longer march of time to allow events to digest into history. (And historians need to use their professional in approaching examinations of the Trump presidency.) The charges of fake news are in some ways healthy for the national news media.

To fight fire with fire is to do politics as irrational rhetoric and mass rally-crying in reverse. Reporting and doing talk shows in a way that starts with the assumption of the absurdity of the Trump administration and presenting to the American audience as if they all feel that the Turmp presidency is an impeachable fraud will only end up with an audience that dislikes Trump.

The problem I see with the media is the influence of the profit motive on news organizations. I trust NPR/PBS reporting a lot more than others in the mainstream, and I don't trust blogs much at all. Still, this has to do with the fundamental ways in which we know what we do. Everything deserves some amount of doubt, and then the challenge is to make decisions based on limited truth.

I'm in agreement that fake news has woken up a lot of people to the limitations of knowing stuff, the epistemological state of existence. Will it promote healthy skepticism or cause people to become bullheaded? I suppose both.
QUOTE
We need to model good democracy and journalism to counter the anti-intellectual and anti-rational trends afoot in international politics. Stand up loudly when democracy is not being practiced right. Speak out loudly when the free press is under assault. We need need to reate an anti movement that mimics the same mass rally and doesn't listen to or acknowledge merit on the other side.

The above quote might need a bit more editing to be clear, but I do get the gist that we need better democracy -- I'd do away with the Electoral College right away or somehow make it less probable that another 2016 could happen -- and better journalism. Getting rid of the profit motive that creates infomercials out of news reports would be nice, and the NPR/PBS system shows how this can be done if enough people are willing to pay for good journalism that isn't beholding to sponsors too much and aren't run by propagandist wannabees. NPR/PBS does have sponsors, so there's risk that the same thing can happen there that happened to mainstream media, but there's less chance of this from what I've observed. The criticism that public news shows are slanted to the left strikes me the same as criticism that higher education is also slanted left: What, it's leftist to not swallow right-wing bull crap? Okay, that's fine by me.
QUOTE
The premise of this thread is to good into ostrich mode and join the ridiculousness in our polity.

Or it's a call to arms in a war over the minds of USA citizens. I personally prefer not to go to war, but others really get into it through various means, some more deadly than others, some more prickish than others. I don't want to kill anyone, and I do try not to be a prick.

Meanwhile, the only reason Trump became POTUS is the Electoral College. He lost the hearts and minds of a very large number of voters, so I don't see much of a problem on that side of politics. There were of course Bernie supporters who could have spoiled it for Clinton, but when we're talking around three million more votes than Trump got, a full percentage point of the entire population (voting and not voting), the clear answer to me is that the EC allowed Trump to happen. This was not the intent of the founders, just the opposite actually. Oops, who could have known . . .

While it's still an open question, the impacts of Russia on the election process could become an even worse problem than the EC. There are technical solutions to election tampering, but what about news fakery? What about President Trump wanting all that voter data? And so on -- questions that need answers and problems that require solutions before November 2018.

This post has been edited by AuthorMusician: Jul 14 2017, 03:21 PM
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Curmudgeon
post Jul 16 2017, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 13 2017, 03:11 PM) *
It's also my strategy with skunks, grizzly bears, sharks, pit bulls, regular bulls, and any restaurant that claims to have food as good as Mom's. Er, that's not exactly a positive endorsement unless you're selling pie, in which case make mine wild blueberry.

Your mom must have been a better cook than mine!

Sorry... Way off topic!
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CruisingRam
post Oct 31 2017, 12:17 AM
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Been a little while since I posted this- and in this time, we have had a massive resurgence of literal Nazi demonstrations, even GW Bush is saying Trump has "emboldended" this behavior. If you weren't a nazi when you started supporting Trump- if you still are supporting him, well, you are a freakin nazi. Or maybe more Mussolini Fascist, as Trump is fascist, just not very smart, coherent or competent.

Eyore, we have moved way past debate and dialogue about a great deal many issues and moved into real, defined fascism. How does anyone defend the defensible like Trump?

Reagan started us on the road to fascism when he started demonizing blacks and unions and the poor. Like welfare moms where getting together and messin' with the stock market. David Duke jumped on his band wagon early because he knows a fascist when he sees one. HW Bush continued the trend, and GW was outright fascist all the way.

Whenever you start the meme "Make _____ great again"- known as the rebirth mythos, scapegoat a minority as the problem needing solved to make the rebirth mythos happen- guess what? Your fascist.

Fascists have joined Trump's America in crazy numbers, and Trump actually appointed Bannon- a real life full blown fascist, to his team.

Once you and fascism and racism are all in agreement on policy- guess what- you are one.
There is literally no difference between a conservative and a fascist anymore. The policies and behaviors are identical, they only thing you don't like is being called what you actually are, a fascist. At least those David Duke types have the guts to outright say " I am a white supremacist fascist, and here are the Republican policies I agree with because I am a fascist" instead of saying "Okay, all these policies are fascist, but lets not call them that".

Trump is literally a : Rapist, Fraudulent con artist, serial cheater, traitor (he clearly has colluded with the Russians on the elections at this point) - but yet, you support him again why?

Republicans love to talk about personal responsibility, but you really have none. It's pure projection. Take some freakin responsibility for a change. Your party is a party of pure by-definition-fascism.

And no, I won't be friends with those that support Trump, anymore than I will be friends with a supporter of ISIS, the NRA or any other terrorist organization. When the EC elected a minority president and Republicans supported him, we passed the time for civil discourse, all you can do now is resist and fight the fascism.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 31 2017, 02:35 PM
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Read about the reaction to racists-fascists showing up in Tennessee and felt proud that the people rejected them, hands down. My three years living in Memphis showed me, as I explored the state in the late 1980s, that the vast majority of Tennesseans have rejected that poo long ago. Best dang pulled pork in the world, out there in the central part. Rendezvous ribs are superb! And of course the music, both in Memphis and Nashville.

It is noteworthy that the whinny white supremacists showed up during Trumps first, possibly final, year in office. Also that they're getting rejected pretty much everywhere.

Is Trump a racist-fascist? Don't think so. He's a sad little tyrant who stumbled into power and must now face the music of his own making. As for his supporters, they're getting harder to find in this country. The odds of having to make a choice to be or not to be a friend with one is getting slimmer.

I suppose the good thing about Trump's probably brief stay in power is that now law enforcement can easily identify the racist-fascists who could become problematic when Trump is led off to the slammer. For me, it has shown how our system can handle a bad POTUS. Maybe the system will change to more effectively weed them out and/or contain them if elected. Doing away with the Electoral College would be my first step, but maybe the parties will come up with better filters.

Another good thing I'm seeing is the growing distrust of social media as nothing more than a playground for marketing bull crap charlatans, such as Trump. And of course narcissists who think somebody cares what they had for lunch.
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Looms
post Nov 11 2017, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Oct 30 2017, 07:17 PM) *
Been a little while since I posted this- and in this time, we have had a massive resurgence of literal Nazi demonstrations, even GW Bush is saying Trump has "emboldended" this behavior. If you weren't a nazi when you started supporting Trump- if you still are supporting him, well, you are a freakin nazi. Or maybe more Mussolini Fascist, as Trump is fascist, just not very smart, coherent or competent.

Eyore, we have moved way past debate and dialogue about a great deal many issues and moved into real, defined fascism. How does anyone defend the defensible like Trump?

Reagan started us on the road to fascism when he started demonizing blacks and unions and the poor. Like welfare moms where getting together and messin' with the stock market. David Duke jumped on his band wagon early because he knows a fascist when he sees one. HW Bush continued the trend, and GW was outright fascist all the way.

Whenever you start the meme "Make _____ great again"- known as the rebirth mythos, scapegoat a minority as the problem needing solved to make the rebirth mythos happen- guess what? Your fascist.

Fascists have joined Trump's America in crazy numbers, and Trump actually appointed Bannon- a real life full blown fascist, to his team.

Once you and fascism and racism are all in agreement on policy- guess what- you are one.
There is literally no difference between a conservative and a fascist anymore. The policies and behaviors are identical, they only thing you don't like is being called what you actually are, a fascist. At least those David Duke types have the guts to outright say " I am a white supremacist fascist, and here are the Republican policies I agree with because I am a fascist" instead of saying "Okay, all these policies are fascist, but lets not call them that".

Trump is literally a : Rapist, Fraudulent con artist, serial cheater, traitor (he clearly has colluded with the Russians on the elections at this point) - but yet, you support him again why?

Republicans love to talk about personal responsibility, but you really have none. It's pure projection. Take some freakin responsibility for a change. Your party is a party of pure by-definition-fascism.

And no, I won't be friends with those that support Trump, anymore than I will be friends with a supporter of ISIS, the NRA or any other terrorist organization. When the EC elected a minority president and Republicans supported him, we passed the time for civil discourse, all you can do now is resist and fight the fascism.


Thank you CR, for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I see you're already working on Trump's re-election.

P.S. Any friend that would even consider of dropping you over politics is not a friend worth having. Even long enough to drink one beer with.
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CruisingRam
post Nov 14 2017, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE(Looms @ Nov 10 2017, 03:32 PM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Oct 30 2017, 07:17 PM) *
Been a little while since I posted this- and in this time, we have had a massive resurgence of literal Nazi demonstrations, even GW Bush is saying Trump has "emboldended" this behavior. If you weren't a nazi when you started supporting Trump- if you still are supporting him, well, you are a freakin nazi. Or maybe more Mussolini Fascist, as Trump is fascist, just not very smart, coherent or competent.

Eyore, we have moved way past debate and dialogue about a great deal many issues and moved into real, defined fascism. How does anyone defend the defensible like Trump?

Reagan started us on the road to fascism when he started demonizing blacks and unions and the poor. Like welfare moms where getting together and messin' with the stock market. David Duke jumped on his band wagon early because he knows a fascist when he sees one. HW Bush continued the trend, and GW was outright fascist all the way.

Whenever you start the meme "Make _____ great again"- known as the rebirth mythos, scapegoat a minority as the problem needing solved to make the rebirth mythos happen- guess what? Your fascist.

Fascists have joined Trump's America in crazy numbers, and Trump actually appointed Bannon- a real life full blown fascist, to his team.

Once you and fascism and racism are all in agreement on policy- guess what- you are one.
There is literally no difference between a conservative and a fascist anymore. The policies and behaviors are identical, they only thing you don't like is being called what you actually are, a fascist. At least those David Duke types have the guts to outright say " I am a white supremacist fascist, and here are the Republican policies I agree with because I am a fascist" instead of saying "Okay, all these policies are fascist, but lets not call them that".

Trump is literally a : Rapist, Fraudulent con artist, serial cheater, traitor (he clearly has colluded with the Russians on the elections at this point) - but yet, you support him again why?

Republicans love to talk about personal responsibility, but you really have none. It's pure projection. Take some freakin responsibility for a change. Your party is a party of pure by-definition-fascism.

And no, I won't be friends with those that support Trump, anymore than I will be friends with a supporter of ISIS, the NRA or any other terrorist organization. When the EC elected a minority president and Republicans supported him, we passed the time for civil discourse, all you can do now is resist and fight the fascism.


Thank you CR, for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I see you're already working on Trump's re-election.

P.S. Any friend that would even consider of dropping you over politics is not a friend worth having. Even long enough to drink one beer with.


If you support a guy that makes fun of the disabled, you are a complete and utter jerk, just like the jerk. If you support a racist, you are a racist. If you support a guy that, in his own recording, encouraged rape (grab em by the pussy, remember) you are no better than the rapist himself. yeah, I have no problem generally with dropping any person like that, ever. It's called morals. It's called integrity, republicans gave them up with Reagan. Now you have 52 pastors and Sean Hannity supporting Roy Moore. You know how many liberals are supporting Harvey Wienstien? Yeah, um, none. Your guy says "there are nice people on both sides" when talking about FREAKIN NAZIS. Really? No thanks.
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Hobbes
post Nov 14 2017, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 13 2017, 10:50 AM) *
Hi, longtime member, long-time since I posted.

QUOTE
So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?


Democracy requires us to agree to disagree. That still exists whether we acknowledge or practice it.
Nazi association language makes it hard to have a conversation with someone that you disagree with.
You can reason with a Trump supporter. I definitely agree that being a Trump supporter does not make you a fascist. Although you can have fascistic views and support Trump.
Cutting ties and shunning is not the most healthy approach.

Trump is a legally elected president of the United States. Many people voted for him for a variety of reasons. Many people presently support him for a wide variety of reasons.

Do I have concerns about the state of the republic? Yes.

Do I think the correct response is boycott, non-participation, or cessation of dialogue? Absolutely not.


Hiya Eeyore! Good to see you again!

Agree completely with the above, with one small addendum. There is lots of 'dialogue' and 'participation', but almost none of it is constructive. Either yelling at each other, or yelling/participating amongst themselves.
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CruisingRam
post Nov 17 2017, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Nov 14 2017, 05:55 AM) *
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 13 2017, 10:50 AM) *
Hi, longtime member, long-time since I posted.

QUOTE
So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?


Democracy requires us to agree to disagree. That still exists whether we acknowledge or practice it.
Nazi association language makes it hard to have a conversation with someone that you disagree with.
You can reason with a Trump supporter. I definitely agree that being a Trump supporter does not make you a fascist. Although you can have fascistic views and support Trump.
Cutting ties and shunning is not the most healthy approach.

Trump is a legally elected president of the United States. Many people voted for him for a variety of reasons. Many people presently support him for a wide variety of reasons.

Do I have concerns about the state of the republic? Yes.

Do I think the correct response is boycott, non-participation, or cessation of dialogue? Absolutely not.


Hiya Eeyore! Good to see you again!

Agree completely with the above, with one small addendum. There is lots of 'dialogue' and 'participation', but almost none of it is constructive. Either yelling at each other, or yelling/participating amongst themselves.


Agreeing to disagree and such- you are familiar with the "paradox of tolerance" yes? Agreeing to disagree is what happens when you and I talk about the need for a deficit in order to have a sovereign currency. How to spend tax dollars- on college or roads. Those are areas for civil debate. When you have gone so far into right wing extremism as conservatives have in this country- there is no room for debate. never will be- you don't debate a Nazi. didn't WW2 teach us that? WW2 was antifa disrupting the plans of white supremacists. When you have a person that will actually support a presidential candidate that makes fun of a disabled reporter, committed fraud against thousands of college students (though anyone stupid enough to go to Trump U, maybe being swindled by trump was the lesson?) and admits to rape in his own words, yeah, you are a piece of crap, period. I don't want to get to know you, I don't want to hear your point of view, I just need to defeat you so you don't get me and my family killed like the folks that voted for Mussolini did in Italy. The biggest problem liberals have had in this country since Reagan is listening and debating the nonsense coming out of that piece of craps blowhole. Trickle down economics and moral majority and Jerry Falwell. Really? And I am supposed to respect your opinion when you believe that filth? I am supposed to respect Steve Bannon and Spencer? Really? No. It's time the left starting treating right wingers that believe that crap like the filth they truly are. Letting racism and sexism and billiionares rip off the US citizen as part of a "debate" is how we got here in the first place. Way too civilized to those that don't deserve it.
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net2007
post Nov 18 2017, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE(Looms @ Nov 10 2017, 09:32 PM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Oct 30 2017, 07:17 PM) *
Been a little while since I posted this- and in this time, we have had a massive resurgence of literal Nazi demonstrations, even GW Bush is saying Trump has "emboldended" this behavior. If you weren't a nazi when you started supporting Trump- if you still are supporting him, well, you are a freakin nazi. Or maybe more Mussolini Fascist, as Trump is fascist, just not very smart, coherent or competent.

Eyore, we have moved way past debate and dialogue about a great deal many issues and moved into real, defined fascism. How does anyone defend the defensible like Trump?

Reagan started us on the road to fascism when he started demonizing blacks and unions and the poor. Like welfare moms where getting together and messin' with the stock market. David Duke jumped on his band wagon early because he knows a fascist when he sees one. HW Bush continued the trend, and GW was outright fascist all the way.

Whenever you start the meme "Make _____ great again"- known as the rebirth mythos, scapegoat a minority as the problem needing solved to make the rebirth mythos happen- guess what? Your fascist.

Fascists have joined Trump's America in crazy numbers, and Trump actually appointed Bannon- a real life full blown fascist, to his team.

Once you and fascism and racism are all in agreement on policy- guess what- you are one.
There is literally no difference between a conservative and a fascist anymore. The policies and behaviors are identical, they only thing you don't like is being called what you actually are, a fascist. At least those David Duke types have the guts to outright say " I am a white supremacist fascist, and here are the Republican policies I agree with because I am a fascist" instead of saying "Okay, all these policies are fascist, but lets not call them that".

Trump is literally a : Rapist, Fraudulent con artist, serial cheater, traitor (he clearly has colluded with the Russians on the elections at this point) - but yet, you support him again why?

Republicans love to talk about personal responsibility, but you really have none. It's pure projection. Take some freakin responsibility for a change. Your party is a party of pure by-definition-fascism.

And no, I won't be friends with those that support Trump, anymore than I will be friends with a supporter of ISIS, the NRA or any other terrorist organization. When the EC elected a minority president and Republicans supported him, we passed the time for civil discourse, all you can do now is resist and fight the fascism.


Thank you CR, for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I see you're already working on Trump's re-election.

P.S. Any friend that would even consider of dropping you over politics is not a friend worth having. Even long enough to drink one beer with.


Thank you! Earlier he blamed conservatives on this site for the drop in active members here and offered zero proof of it. I hope he's able to tone things back some but that's how some people roll. Defamation, tricks, and lies is thought to be an effective way to get their beliefs out there, that along with criticizing others for doing the same thing they're doing. I try to keep in mind that those techniques are typically used by those who are losing an argument or struggle to make an effective one to begin with.

This post has been edited by net2007: Nov 18 2017, 12:23 AM
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AuthorMusician
post Nov 18 2017, 04:32 AM
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A couple of related things that recently happened in this little cow town:

Saw a bumper sticker that read, "PROOF POSITIVE THAT STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE - OBAMA"

Seems pretty foolish in the Trump period. I'm reluctant to call it an era because all signs are toward it ending before the first term is done. The black pickup the sticker was on felt terribly sad, and the owner had put it on the paint. Yep, bad move dude. If you don't have chrome, stick it on the back window. Much easier and far less destructive to remove, which is also symbolic of the Trump anomaly in which the Republican Party failed to filter him out before it was too late, and of course the Electoral College once again giving us a minority POTUS in the 21st century. Both Republican. There has never been a minority Democratic POTUS in this country.

Met a youngish vet who was a Trump voter. He went on and on how terrible Obama was, and so I said, "And then we got Trump." Things could have escalated until I offered my hand to shake, he took it, and we left smiling at each other. This works 100% of the time. It's Trump we hate, not each other. And yeah, Obama had his problems. Just a whole lot fewer of them. Also, if you had not grown up knowing Trump was an arsehole faker, the conman could easily have fooled you. Not your fault; it is his, and his alone. Well, add his sycophantic minions in there. Fame and fortune has its price, one that's way too high for most folks. In a way, I feel sorry for Donald Trump. He was born into it and had little choice than to become what he is, but still he had some choices. So my sorrow for him is limited, especially regarding his chumming up to Russian shark money.

But I am always on the side of vets, especially those who come back disabled. They were also conned since Vietnam, and that situation has gotten worse over the decades.

Well, we will see how this turns out. Meanwhile, the fault is mostly with a broken Republican primary process and the sycophantic minions who like it that way, not the duped voters.They know now they were taken for a ride, so there's no need to rub their noses in it.

Offer a hand to shake instead.

Sorry about that bumper sticker as well, but on the paint? That is really stupid, and among motorheads, unforgivable. Burn in blowby hell, sticker boy! Well, until we meet and shake hands, eh?
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 18 2017, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Nov 18 2017, 12:32 AM) *
Offer a hand to shake instead.

Sorry about that bumper sticker as well, but on the paint? That is really stupid, and among motorheads, unforgivable. Burn in blowby hell, sticker boy! Well, until we meet and shake hands, eh?


Agreed on the bumper sticker.
Bumper stickers are usually a bad idea anyway (kind of like getting a tattoo...better still want that thing in twenty years).

Per the handshake, well, it's certainly more likely to persuade than spitting at them and threatening them.
Because it presents you as a reasonable person...and people tend to respect reasonable people more, and want to emulate them and be around them.
I've long maintained the "bad advocate" can do far, far more harm for a cause than the opposition.
Sometimes I think it's intentional...take the opposition's side and be so inflammatory they want to distance themselves.
If so, it's a smart tactic.
If not, it's kind of like a Trojan horse (in a different parable where the Trojan horse thought he was helping Troy and didn't realize the Greeks were using him).
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post Nov 19 2017, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Nov 18 2017, 10:15 AM) *
Agreed on the bumper sticker.
Bumper stickers are usually a bad idea anyway (kind of like getting a tattoo...better still want that thing in twenty years).

Per the handshake, well, it's certainly more likely to persuade than spitting at them and threatening them.
Because it presents you as a reasonable person...and people tend to respect reasonable people more, and want to emulate them and be around them.
I've long maintained the "bad advocate" can do far, far more harm for a cause than the opposition.
Sometimes I think it's intentional...take the opposition's side and be so inflammatory they want to distance themselves.
If so, it's a smart tactic.
If not, it's kind of like a Trojan horse (in a different parable where the Trojan horse thought he was helping Troy and didn't realize the Greeks were using him).

But it did explain the Trojan horse's bloated feeling, and oh! What a relief it was.

Some have speculated that Trump is actually a Democrat out to destroy the Republican Party, and similar thoughts were common regarding GWB. But now there's no question about what motivates Trump.

Sarah Silverman's new show is based on her getting out there to talk with people without condemning them. I get it on Hulu, but clips are also on YouTube for those not willing to pay for streaming video.

This works with people I've recently met. It might not with long-term friends due to the baggage that collects over the years. There's also the very human situation in which a battle has nothing to do with Greece or Troy but with what happened somewhere else, with someone different, long before. We are often confusing creatures that way, among others.

And then there's the take that trying to understand or find common ground is actually a sign of weakness. That's when the effort has rapidly diminishing returns, and it could be best to stop playing into the game altogether. Pretty hard to do at times, and so everyone ends up feeling like piles of horse apples.
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post Dec 12 2017, 09:22 PM
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This is exactly the kind of conjecture (or baiting, really) that makes people not want to engage in political discourse.

Contrary to your belief that people don't want to debate "fascists" and "Nazis", I believe that many Trump supporters merely wish to be able to have their opinions or thoughts and share them, but can't because they don't want to be labelled as "Nazis" because simpletons can't argue with facts.

If of course you were merely referencing the particular white nationalists and didn't mean to wrap all Trump supporters into a single package, I couldn't tell.
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post Dec 13 2017, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE(johnlocke @ Dec 12 2017, 05:22 PM) *
This is exactly the kind of conjecture (or baiting, really) that makes people not want to engage in political discourse.

Contrary to your belief that people don't want to debate "fascists" and "Nazis", I believe that many Trump supporters merely wish to be able to have their opinions or thoughts and share them, but can't because they don't want to be labelled as "Nazis" because simpletons can't argue with facts.

If of course you were merely referencing the particular white nationalists and didn't mean to wrap all Trump supporters into a single package, I couldn't tell.

The Moore loss to Jones in Alabama shows me a few things:

1) The Trump brand has lost pretty much all its glitter. His endorsement and talking up Moore didn't work because people have seen what he, Trump, really is, and it isn't pretty.

2) Calling names has never worked to change people's minds, not dishing it out and not receiving, unless it's put into terms that deride people other than those who are trying to be swayed. That was not enough for Moore to become the next US Senator from Alabama and in fact backfired as voters got out to show what libtards and snowflakes can do. It was the reverse of HRC calling Trump supporters deplorable. Um, except she did win the popular vote by a margin wider than the Potomac, so . . . there's that.

3) Republicans can be fooled only some of the time. Same goes for people in general. At some point the game is discovered and rejected, and enough has been revealed about certain Republicans that the game was lost. This was especially true about Bannon, and Moore didn't fool anyone who didn't want to be fooled due to his long sordid history in the state.

The Republican loss in Alabama can be rationalized away for the remaining Trump supporters (fake news, not enough RNC support, uppity minorities and women), but the fact remains that the Senate will have one less vote that Republicans can count on. And this happened in a state that hardly ever votes Democratic since the Jim Crow days ended in the 1960s.

I'm fairly certain this trend will continue into the midterms. Democrats will do well to base their campaigns on the facts and nothing but the facts, since they all point to voting Democratic rather than Republican. That's because names don't have to be called when the facts speak for themselves during a time when people like Bannon and Trump have nothing left but name-calling and outright lying.
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post Dec 13 2017, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Dec 13 2017, 06:50 AM) *
QUOTE(johnlocke @ Dec 12 2017, 05:22 PM) *
This is exactly the kind of conjecture (or baiting, really) that makes people not want to engage in political discourse.

Contrary to your belief that people don't want to debate "fascists" and "Nazis", I believe that many Trump supporters merely wish to be able to have their opinions or thoughts and share them, but can't because they don't want to be labelled as "Nazis" because simpletons can't argue with facts.

If of course you were merely referencing the particular white nationalists and didn't mean to wrap all Trump supporters into a single package, I couldn't tell.

The Moore loss to Jones in Alabama shows me a few things:

1) The Trump brand has lost pretty much all its glitter. His endorsement and talking up Moore didn't work because people have seen what he, Trump, really is, and it isn't pretty.

2) Calling names has never worked to change people's minds, not dishing it out and not receiving, unless it's put into terms that deride people other than those who are trying to be swayed. That was not enough for Moore to become the next US Senator from Alabama and in fact backfired as voters got out to show what libtards and snowflakes can do. It was the reverse of HRC calling Trump supporters deplorable. Um, except she did win the popular vote by a margin wider than the Potomac, so . . . there's that.

3) Republicans can be fooled only some of the time. Same goes for people in general. At some point the game is discovered and rejected, and enough has been revealed about certain Republicans that the game was lost. This was especially true about Bannon, and Moore didn't fool anyone who didn't want to be fooled due to his long sordid history in the state.

The Republican loss in Alabama can be rationalized away for the remaining Trump supporters (fake news, not enough RNC support, uppity minorities and women), but the fact remains that the Senate will have one less vote that Republicans can count on. And this happened in a state that hardly ever votes Democratic since the Jim Crow days ended in the 1960s.

I'm fairly certain this trend will continue into the midterms. Democrats will do well to base their campaigns on the facts and nothing but the facts, since they all point to voting Democratic rather than Republican. That's because names don't have to be called when the facts speak for themselves during a time when people like Bannon and Trump have nothing left but name-calling and outright lying.


I don't think I'd read that deep into the Moore loss. He was, at the time of the election, a hugely flawed candidate, which many Republicans themselves were looking to replace. Trump may well have bolstered his support, it's hard to tell. That an accused child molestor almost won an election, in the current climate, is newsworthy by itself.
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post Dec 14 2017, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Dec 13 2017, 04:28 PM) *
I don't think I'd read that deep into the Moore loss. He was, at the time of the election, a hugely flawed candidate, which many Republicans themselves were looking to replace. Trump may well have bolstered his support, it's hard to tell. That an accused child molestor almost won an election, in the current climate, is newsworthy by itself.


That a Republican lost a run at the US Senate in Alabama is far more newsworthy, especially since Moore's supporters were brushing away his accusers as being paid by the DNC, NYT, WaPo or somebody liberal. Desired belief was at work, not Trump's support. In simple terms, Trump had less influence than a roadkill opossum on the election. I do doubt that his support swayed anyone to the Democratic side, but his attraction of people to the Republican side simply didn't work.

However, Moore's sordid history in the state did likely cause some Republicans to write-in somebody else or to not vote at all. My take is the damning fact that Moore had been banned from a shopping mall was the last straw for a significant number of Republicans.

And now all Republicans up for election in 2018 are worried that a Trump endorsement is toxic. They might not admit it, but the fear is there eating at them, and what else will they do once they get fired from their jobs? This is fear; no amount of rationalization will dispel it . . . the downside of human belief from the Republican POV.

Here's another problem: Once something catches in people's minds, like Trump's support being toxic, it is very hard to change those minds. The Democrats have been dealing with this for a very long time. Now it's the Republicans' turn to convince people that:

1) They are not all crazy.

2) They can keep their hands to themselves.

3) They aren't all shills and minions for Russia.

4) They don't only care about their money sources, thereby screwing their constituents.

5) And even that they care about our country, maybe. Give it another six months. I'm allowing for the possibility that Trump gets booted out of power before the midterms. If that were to happen, it might help the Republicans running in 2018. Then again, it could make the above four ideas solid for the next fifty years or so. Trump is looking a lot like Carter, except with no core values or principles other than to get rich and stay rich, no matter what.

There's another very important player in this -- the economy. If it gets white hot and crashes under Republican rule once again, well, maybe the next elected POTUS will be female and naturally brown. The insidious thing is that, at minimum, the economy has to stay where it is for half a year or so. Even a mild recession could change hard hearts and defrost frozen minds, meaning more write-ins and discouraged voters on the Republican side.

But then something entirely unforeseeable could, and will probably, happen.
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post Dec 25 2017, 02:36 PM
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The alt-right (fascist) influence on the Republican Party seems to have run its course. It has become obvious that only a handful, and a small baby hand at that, are really fascists. Most are people who feel absolutely powerless and have taken the dubious path of hatred to compensate. It's very easy to do and is tied directly with the economics of the individual. How can you feel powerful in a world that doesn't pay squat for actual labor and places ridiculous value on digital bits representing imaginary coins? Where smarts and guts pay off in enormous debt (for higher ed) or hopeless minimum wage MacJobs? Where the elite are not considered the richest classes but single moms trying to raise their kids among sexual predators? Or however you want to define the bleak futures so many, usually 20-something white-ish males, face without a shred of relief other than joining up with white-ish power gangs.

The tax bill tries to alleviate some of that pressure with tax reductions for the middle-classes that are too little too late and will evaporate like dreams on a hot tin roof. But it's just too dang obvious that it's making the rich (our non-elitists) richer, along with the promise of tinkle-down that has never actually worked. Here doggies, a few bones for you while the power brokers snarf up even more of the wealth, ha-ha-ha. Nice doggies, now vote for me, a Republican who puts party before country and big money before constituents, and of course guns before butter. We need more missile defense because some crazy kooks have been stirring up rumors of global thermonuclear war!

It's entirely messed up but feels like a return to normality, like when the 26-pound sledge that's been conking you on the head goes back to the more tolerable 8-ounce ball pein. Still annoying as hell but less destructive, as in not threatening the very existence of the country. As much, as soon anyhow.

It's as if the power brokers, our non-elitist filthy rich beyond bounds, have realized that fascists don't have any money either, and if you scare consumers enough, they stop buying everything but opioid drugs. Keep the fear down to a steady boink-boink-boink rather than skull-crushing daily full-frontal assaults. Allow just enough health care to keep the rubes buying more junk they don't need or really want. There's a problem with this thinking that seems beyond our poor little rich babies' ken: The high price of health care reduces, and often destroys, the purchasing ability of us rubes. Huh, how about that -- but I suppose that's okay due to the bucks ending up in the non-elitists' coffers anyway.

So as 2017 heads into the maw of history, 2018 looks to be less outrageous. I won't put money on it, but if Republicans want to continue their party past the next election season, they'll do well to keep fascists at arm's length, plus a few hundred light years. The odds of that actually happening are pretty low, so no bet from me. I think it's far more likely that Republicans fade away like Torries and Whigs due to having become irrelevant and actually dangerous to even associate with, let alone be employed by, those currently holding office. Trump toxicity has become an infecting political, social, and economic virus. Not very good for spirituality either, but that's not as important as it once was. People are generally more concerned about tangibles now, along with brighter futures for their children. Armageddon doesn't reverberate well in this space.

I am very interested in how Republicans handle their Trumpian flu this coming season. The old tricks probably won't work, so do those lumbering proboscidea have anything new? Seems to be a fundamental contradiction.

On the upside, Hitler is no longer cool. Conspiracy theories are no longer attractive as well when you've got a big one right in your face. It's probably safe to have conversations with strangers again, as fascism has gone the way of fidget spinners. You might see them in discount gas stations and dollar stores, but nobody's buying an idea that turned out to be pretty stupid.

Sidebar question: Will Democratic ideas make sense to the electorate in 2018? Time will tell, but I would put money on that being the case. However, I do expect a lot of smear attempts from Republican candidates, and they're very good at that. Now that the playbook is no longer a mystery of any degree, they should expect the tactic to crash, burn, and be blown away by a mild summer breeze.

BTW Happy Merry! santa.gif A good way to kill the post-holiday blues is to take a long walk in nature, and a good way to avoid them altogether is to play the blues regularly, like brushing teeth. Keeps the soul enamel strong. mrsparkle.gif

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