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> Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Where's mah cake!?
Who should win this court case?
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nebraska29
post Aug 6 2017, 12:39 PM
Post #1


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As you all know, the Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal regarding a Christian business owner's refusal to bake a cake for a gay couple. Playing a prominent role in this situation has been the Colorado Commission of Civil Rights and the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act

Court brief on behalf of Phillips.

I'll borrow the debate question directly from the court case question to be addressed.

1.)Whether applying Colorado’s public accommodations law to compel Phillips to create expression that violates his sincerely held religious beliefs about marriage violates the Free Speech or Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment.

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AuthorMusician
post Aug 17 2017, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ Aug 16 2017, 04:06 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 8 2017, 03:58 AM) *
The situation can be analyzed as such:

What is different about baking a cake for a wedding that involves a heterosexual couple verses a homosexual couple? Do the ingredients or processes change in any way? Are the nutritional needs of a homosexual couple different from those of a heterosexual couple?


This a custom cake and so, the artistic expression is different for each cake. If this baker simply made generic cakes and a same sex couple came in, pointed to a fresh cake in the display and said, "I'll take that one," and the baker refused to sell it, it'd be a different story. In that instance, I believe the couple would have a case for discrimination. Once you create a piece of artistic expression and put it up for sale, you really have little control over who uses it and how. But a cake that is made custom to the customer's wishes is a different ball of wax. The government can't compel an individual to engage in expression that violates the individual's core beliefs.

Can you provide some background on this? It sounds like it might be true, but I'm wondering how artistic expression is defined.

To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art, about parallel with what's generally considered folk art.

But there is another question in this: What differs in a cake for a gay wedding from those used for hetero weddings? I've heard reference to rainbow colors, but wouldn't it have to have something to do with sexual orientation -- and how do rainbow colors fit into that?

This revolves to how custom is the cake. Might it be a generic cake with modifications in appearance, like the difference in wall paint colors? Or is there sexual imagery involved?

I'm being specific here because the government cannot approve discrimination based on vagueness. Or at least it shouldn't.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Aug 17 2017, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 17 2017, 04:46 AM) *
To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art, about parallel with what's generally considered folk art.


1) The time involved doesn't really matter, the principle (of protected freedom) applies regardless.

2) Cake art is DEFINITELY "real" art.
The person in this particular case in question has been a cake artist for about two decades.
Those types of cakes take a great deal of time and require a high skill level.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Aug 17 2017, 06:40 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 5 2017, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 17 2017, 02:38 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 17 2017, 04:46 AM) *
To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art, about parallel with what's generally considered folk art.


1) The time involved doesn't really matter, the principle (of protected freedom) applies regardless.

2) Cake art is DEFINITELY "real" art.
The person in this particular case in question has been a cake artist for about two decades.
Those types of cakes take a great deal of time and require a high skill level.

The point isn't art, it's discrimination based on religious belief that a whole group of people are wrong to exist and/or are inferior.

The so-called cake artist is discriminating based on sexual orientation. There's where this case is heading. Art has nothing to do with it.

If it did, I'd be against calling cooks and bakers artists. There's more to art than time and skill -- soul has a lot to do with it. Also, art that is eaten is actually food. Art that is ridden is actually transportation. The art part is an illusion born of hyperbole.

In my book, art has to make you feel something you wouldn't normally. It has to leave not only an impression but one with profound meaning. Can a wedding cake do that? I bet not as much as the ceremony itself, and that most powerfully for those actually getting married. It's all about them -- ideally, but many exceptions exist: marrying for money, power, combining money and power, avoiding the Vietnam draft (my surviving brother, didn't work, both avoidance and marriage), social status, getting laid (finally!), because they said so, because they'd discriminate if not married, because there's a shotgun . . . and so on.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 7 2017, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 5 2017, 04:02 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 17 2017, 02:38 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 17 2017, 04:46 AM) *
To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art, about parallel with what's generally considered folk art.


1) The time involved doesn't really matter, the principle (of protected freedom) applies regardless.

2) Cake art is DEFINITELY "real" art.
The person in this particular case in question has been a cake artist for about two decades.
Those types of cakes take a great deal of time and require a high skill level.

The point isn't art,


If it isn't about art, why did you bring it up a number of times as though it were a relevant factor?
I didn't bring it up, you did (more than once). That is the sole reason I addressed it.

QUOTE
it's discrimination based on religious belief that a whole group of people are wrong to exist and/or are inferior.


But he offered to make them a different cake, just not a particular type of cake to celebrate this particular occasion.
We've been through this before.
What's the point in regurgitating the same argument again and again? to create a mobius outrage feedback loop? Sorry, can't comply.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 7 2017, 01:09 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 8 2017, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 7 2017, 09:09 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 5 2017, 04:02 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 17 2017, 02:38 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 17 2017, 04:46 AM) *
To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art, about parallel with what's generally considered folk art.


1) The time involved doesn't really matter, the principle (of protected freedom) applies regardless.

2) Cake art is DEFINITELY "real" art.
The person in this particular case in question has been a cake artist for about two decades.
Those types of cakes take a great deal of time and require a high skill level.

The point isn't art,


If it isn't about art, why did you bring it up a number of times as though it were a relevant factor?
I didn't bring it up, you did (more than once). That is the sole reason I addressed it.

QUOTE
it's discrimination based on religious belief that a whole group of people are wrong to exist and/or are inferior.


But he offered to make them a different cake, just not a particular type of cake to celebrate this particular occasion.
We've been through this before.
What's the point in regurgitating the same argument again and again? to create a mobius outrage feedback loop? Sorry, can't comply.

As I remember it, you brought up art:

QUOTE
Guess these laws need to apply to every type of artist.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...amp;p=100035060

Unless maybe you mean someone else first brought it up?

A big point I'm making is that art is subjective and will likely not be much of an argument in this case.

Yep, it's the same old discrimination-religion debate. It's pretty common in our nation's history. So far, discrimination based on religion hasn't done so well, as I think it should be. This case could reverse that trend.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 8 2017, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 7 2017, 08:07 PM) *
As I remember it, you brought up art:

QUOTE
Guess these laws need to apply to every type of artist.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...amp;p=100035060

Unless maybe you mean someone else first brought it up?


You brought up the fact that you didn't view it as real art, as though it were a significant detail.
That is why I provided the link.

Examples:
"Baking a cake is really stretching the concept" (of art)

"A cake is merely a cake, nothing more."

"Was the baker asked to bake a cake out of his normal repertoire of cakes? Doesn't seem so."
(this again seems intended to drive a point home that it isn't "real art" and the answer, as noted before: well yes, yes it was...custom made for each individual occasion)

"To me, custom cake decoration is right up there with a custom paint job on a motorcycle tank, i.e., pretty far down on the scale of what's considered art"

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 8 2017, 01:59 AM
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