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> Remaining friends with Trump supporters, good idea?, Why hang with a fascist?
CruisingRam
post May 2 2017, 02:51 AM
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This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.

Considering that Trump literally lies outright and the right wing seems to not really care, and when I mean lie- there is no nuance or reality to it whatsoever, Not debatable points, nothing to do with facts- just makes crap up and it's okay. Same with Fox news. So there doesn't seem to be much point in debating a right winger anymore, just resist them, and this has been pretty much coming since Reagan decided to go the Christo-facsist way with conservatism in America. He has taken even to going about calling the press that fact check him "the lying press" (Hitler: Luggenpresse)

Some of the important elements of fascism:


1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)

3) The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. (Reagan started this, and fox news has run with it, pretty much the entire Republican party is completely fascist in this regard, as is many on this board now)

4) A strong sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary."

5) Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." (MURICA!)

6) Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. (Making America great again! Though modern times women can be fascist leaders- Sarah Palin, Ann Coultier, Margeret Thatcher)

7) "The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. (Trump has called for violence against his opponent several times)

Another important aspect is "the rebirth myth"- "Making America great again"- I think it is just as important as anti-liberalism in fact. Without it, you don't have fascism able to gain power from what I have seen.

Another set of definitions of fascism, which pretty much are ticked off one by one by anyone that even remotely supports the republican party today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: May 2 2017, 02:55 AM
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droop224
post Jun 1 2017, 01:16 PM
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Mrs P

QUOTE
They probably did think they killed him. They aren't medics, it's not like they were planning on only beating him right up to the edge of death but leave him in a comatose state just to be nice. I'm sure they didn't take a pulse. And I doubt they wanted to get brain splatter on their clothes. Good Lord, Droop.
My point is... its not likely they gave a crap either way in the moment. They wanted his car he threw his keys and they beat them. Their actions were horrible. I don't think they cared if he lived and I don't think they much cared in the moment if he died.

QUOTE
"I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy"<-------Okay. This here portion I've drawn an arrow to is what we folks in the business call "humor" (or perhaps "levity").

It also makes the succinct point that a cop isn't going to be there at the moment of truth. Policemen agree with this statement and cops are, in general, very very positive about self defense and concealed carry. Just about every class on firearm defense is taught by a current or former law enforcement officer (or military serviceman).
I haven't actually brandished a weapon in years. I only did so in an environment where it was necessary.
Obviously if I'm not locking my doors currently i'm not concerned about being attacked.
laugh.gif See laughter face. I knew it was a joke and I knew the point you were making, which is MY point. You carry a deadly firearm around just in case something extremely unlikely happens. And when I say extremely, go look at the numbers. You talk about carrying a gun, even in a neighborhood where you don't need to lock your doors... just in case.

Tell me if I carried an umbrella everyday, and you asked me why and my response was in case it rains, would you think I was scared of rain? "But there is like 0% chance of rain today, droop." "Still, just in case." And look, that is ok. If that 1% chance thing happens where I get in an altercation requiring I need a firearm, I would wish I had it, won't I? But I don't have it, I don't carry it, and I don't feel like I need it "just in case." I'm not afraid that this very unlikely event just might happen, but I am also aware and acknowledge it can happen.

QUOTE
Wait....one more thing (from the portion I"ve read before this bit)...You've mentioned before that "total freedom" is chaotic. Yes, indeed.
What you are noting should make it patently obvious why society looks completely differently at law enforcement and military engagement*** than it does violent criminality.

**within a set of legal restrictions...there are still rules governing warfare and law enforcement and quite a lot of them...more and more even as time goes on
They are viewed as different, but not completely different. It has nothing to do with "freedom" its just the way we are programmed. You aren't a minority, so for you it may be vastly different, for me it is slightly different.

Case and point:

How you look at a Black teenager being chased behind a building and being killed, is vastly different than how I look at. How you look at a man killing two unarmed people for stealing from his neighbors house, is vastly different than how I look at it. And when we see countless videos of brutality by law enforcement, I am willing to bet that how I see it is vastly different than how you see it. Same applies in our global use of force.

Me and you are part of the exact same society. Now to the degree we are able to un-program ourselves is to the degree we no longer look at "us" as completely different. Syrians are human being, Iraqis are human beings, Afghans are human beings, Americans are human beings, Christians are human beings, Blacks are human beings, Whites are human beings, ETC.!!

Every thing I said before "are human beings" are labels programmed into us from birth to divide ourselves. I am as guilty as the next human in using labels. But remember what I said earlier with the "us vs. Them" philosophy of the right and the "they are us" philosophy of the left. The goal, for me, is to fight the more natural "us vs. them" philosophy and strive for the more humanitarian "they are us" philosophy seen on the left.

When you are dealing with foreign policy or defending the status quo, it is very easy to forget the human being on the other side of that policy. Whether its a war on terror or a war on drugs.

This post has been edited by droop224: Jun 2 2017, 01:11 AM
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Hobbes
post Jun 1 2017, 01:23 PM
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Droop,

You do realize all of these statement apply equally to the left....don't you? Indicating that the left is just as corrupt (your word) as the right.

No, given your post, you probably don't. You probably also don't realize that your post essentially shows how you discriminate against conservatives, and stereotype them....the very things you call out conservatives for doing. You further exemplify that not only do you stereotype and label them...but that you really don't have any interest in understanding them, but would rather just relegate them to the lower class of human you seem to think they are (corrupt, and less humane). Ironic, given the supposedly tolerant and inclusive outlook liberals are supposed to have, no?

FWIW, by and large, conservatives and liberals believe in the same goals, they just have different ideas on how to get there.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jun 1 2017, 01:47 PM
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droop224
post Jun 1 2017, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE(Hobbes)
Droop,

You do realize all of these statement apply equally to the left....don't you? Indicating that the left is just as corrupt (your word) as the right.

No, given your post, you probably don't.

You are right, I do not. The most important word here in my opinion is "equally". Hobbes, I will say again. We ARE all human. Individually we all have the same emotions, there is no emotion that the average "conservative" feels that the average "liberal" doesn't. We are all similar and yet we are all different. Now if you wanted to say that the politicians of the left and the politicians of the right are equally corrupt, I'd argue with you less. I'd be more supportive of that view.

However, I do stereotype you based on the platform conservatives consistently vote on. Based on the viewpoints conservative generally take. As I told Net I don't know every conservative in America and if I did I couldn't write about each and every one of you individually. If the liberal and conservative platform was the same we wouldn't have even two parties. I'm of a mindset that we need at least 8 to stop our democracy from being so corrupt and dysfunctional.

But we do not have the same views. Liberals tend to have separate views than conservatives tend to have. Yes I talk about those view in a general sense, how else can I do it?

QUOTE
You further exemplify that not only do you stereotype and label them...but that you really don't have any interest in understanding them, but would rather just relegate them to the lower class of human you seem to think they are (corrupt, and less humane). Ironic, given the supposedly tolerant and inclusive outlook liberals are supposed to have, no?
Here, you couldn't be more wrong. I say again, we all have conservative type psyche in us. It is a mindset. I do understand you all, because to a degree, I believe, I am you. Psyche I attribute to conservatism is very natural, it is very animalistic. It is closer to nature than liberalism will ever be. There is a reason why the concept of social Darwinism has its roots in conservative philosophy, it is very close to the rule of the jungle. Conservatism is not something that is beneath me, in my mind, it is something I think many of us on the left strive to elevate above. In any moment of fear, anger, or rage, I'm as conservative as they come.

But when I can be thoughtful, I choose the ideals of leftist politics, chief of which for me is equality.

Hobbes, Think about all the things I post, what is it about conservatives you think I don't understand? Try me.






This post has been edited by droop224: Jun 1 2017, 02:38 PM
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Gray Seal
post Jun 4 2017, 09:42 PM
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It is certainly a long winding list to determine what fascism is. Many of the items of the list are worthy of examination.

For example: Supremacy of the Military. We can not get through a athletic event without paying homage to the military. How many national holidays are now celebrate the military holidays?

At what level of spending on the military do you cross over from necessary defense to deliberate use of force upon sovereign nations? Is military supremacy determined by actions or by spending?

The brief exploration is just an example but how does it fit with the discussion on fascism?

I think understanding terms means the terms must be focused and to the point. These lists are not focused nor to the point. I observe that many arguing each side of the fascism question are actually in agreement and supportive of fascism. Progressives and neocons both like and support fascism.

Fascism is when private business serves government and bureaucrats. Simple and to the point. Focused determined of what fascism is. Our society requires business to submit to the whims of government. Regulation, licensing, taxation are the tools of this relationship. If a big business wishes to succeed in this world they better have their lobby ducks in a row. Campaign donations are king.

Big money controls elections. Voters obey the big money. The voters do this knowingly. Progressives think government is the basis for good via its use of force. Neocons think the use of force is necessary as it is a king-of-the-hill world of humans. Force and control domestically is fully supported along with force and control as the fulcrum of foreign policy.

It is one real happy party for all. Authoritarian methods are favored in today's elections. We just quibble about window dressing.

It is good to be fascist. If not for modern fascism what would we have?
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 5 2017, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jun 4 2017, 05:42 PM) *
It is certainly a long winding list to determine what fascism is. Many of the items of the list are worthy of examination.

I kinda like Merriam-Webster on this:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

The definition references the Fascisti. I'd not encountered this history before, probably because Hitler and Mussolini got so much attention, and this movement did not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fascisti

However, what's going on now looks more like crazy stupid than fascism. We've got a POTUS who really didn't want the job, can't read worth beans, doesn't understand squat, and is barely ambulant trying to do something -- nobody knows what, even his own crew. Now the word is out, and nobody wants to work for this chimp-chump.

Heh, and then there's the free-speech blathering that moved from Berkeley, CA to Portland, OR and from creeping communist-wannabees (from rich families) to pathetic punks emulating their comic book hero-villains.

Ah well, maybe the world's climate won't become irreversibly toxic in 20 years; maybe the USA will survive this most recent period of self-inflicted insanity; maybe things will turn around sooner than anyone dares to hope right now.

Or not. We'll see, and in the meantime, we can just leave the room if people get too weird about Trump. That might not be physically possible at times, so I recommend retreat into your own head. Just nod and say meaningless things, like "yah, sure" (Minnesotan for "bull crap not worth arguing about").

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Gray Seal
post Jun 5 2017, 11:33 PM
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I think of Mussolini and his government as the prototype fascism. The Nazi government had fascism, too. I do not equate fascism to be the synonym for Nazism. The fascism of Hitler and Mussolini was making big business beholden to the government, even if those businesses were technically private big business.

AuthorMusician, I had not heard about the fascisti group in Britain before your link.

The fascism I see in the United States did not start with Trump and unfortunately it will not end with Trump. Trump is another cog in the long list of Presidents controlled by hidden government. It is good people are speculating and wondering about fascism. I think for the most part people recognize fascism is a bad thing but they do not understand what fascism means nor why it is bad.

The window dressing of Trump continues to be attacked while the substance of government continues to expand and deteriorate.
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net2007
post Jun 6 2017, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ May 31 2017, 11:43 PM) *
Net 2007
QUOTE
I'll deal with you a little here, since I already have comments on Syria and did give the gist of it again, I'll offer you a more detailed picture of what I personally believe when it comes to war and how I define sympathy when related to those topics but I want you to offer something real on your end. When I initiated this trade off with you I wanted to know if you can substantiate that the right is inherently less empathetic than the left to back your claim, and wanted to know if you could demonstrate that the left isn't guilty of having a similar problem.

From there, you took a personal approach and used me as the example of an unempathetic conservative, but didn't address the left it in a sincere way. Here's what I'm talking about, I countered by quoting things like this....

"It's hard not to have contempt for you all."

This demonstrates a lack of compassion from the left, on your part, and contradicts your claim in a very direct way. If I were to pull in sources from elsewhere, believe me, there's a lot of material to work with, (some of it verging on domestic terrorism,) but the way you dealt with that quote alone was to say....

"Listen compassion is for the loss of life, not your ego."

You've addressed conservatives as a group, and a large one at that. "You all" does not mean "my ego", it means "you all" That comment comes in combination with other all encompassing and belittling remarks directed at those who oppose you politically.


Well, lets address this then. What is it you think I am in contempt of Net? Honestly, if you had to choose between conservative views and their human life, which would you think putting into context all I have said since you have read my posts? I have contempt for the mindset and the mindset can change. Look at my first post and acknowledge I am saying you should remain friends with Trump supporters. I'm not backing off my comment either, just making sure you don't make it seem like I HATE people who are conservative.

Next point, compassion. You can have utter contempt for a person views and still have extreme compassion for them and their hardships. The two, IMO, are not opposing concepts in any way.. So you are basically asking me how I can have compassion and contempt and I am befuddled, because I'm not quite sure why you think I can't? I think that is why I didn't address it, because for me I really didn't know how to address it, because your point, while I understood it, didn't make sense.

Its like some one says I need a water hose to tighten this bolt. Well I understand the concept of water hose, water, and tightening a bolt. But I don't quite understand why you want a water hose to tighten a bolt.

So I don't get why you bring up the analogy of conservatives being "like teens with guns" or my contempt for their views and beliefs and adjoin that to my comments of compassion. You are making a connection that I don't understand.

QUOTE
With that said I'm not concerned about what you think of me personally because I understand that you're doing the same thing to others based on an ideology clash. To a great degree, you've taken a one size fits all approach so this is predictable. Secondly, as far as those who are okay with being intentionally insulting, I take their opinions on what they think is insensitive with a grain of salt. You may do the same regarding my criticisms of your remarks and that's fine but I'd argue that there's a difference between saying we should have kicked some booty in reference to a murderous dictator and lumping millions of people together and specifying that you believe they're like inhumane teenagers that you have contempt for, and saying similar things consistently. Perhaps that's comparable if you were to speculate on what I believe but that's a dangerous way to develop opinions. Seeking the truth is different than seeking information to back preconceived notions.
The one size fits all approach is due to expedience and capability. I understand there millions of flavors of individuals that call themselves "conservative". Do you understand I understand this? However, 1. I haven't met every conservative in the world 2. even if I had I wouldn't be able to talk about them individually in a million posts on ad.gif. So, yes, I generalize.

When It comes to the conservative movements of Americans I base it on the the leaders they select, in small part, but the platforms sold to the conservatives in large part. You ever here the saying you have to give the base some raw meat.. or something like that. Both the politicians and the right and left do this. But what is the "meat" fed to the left and what is the "meat" fed to the right.

So you wanted me to substantiate How about this. The left wants everyone to have healthcare and access to medical services, the right wants the people that can afford it to have healthcare and medical services. The left shows compassion the right shows a lack of it.





You're saying that the reason you generalize is that you can't get the opinions of millions of people but perhaps that's actually a reason you shouldn't generalize. I think I understand the explanation you're giving for it, it'd be easier to generalize about a large group but this is the kind of stuff that the right gets hammered for all the time, particularly white male conservatives, regardless of their reason.

Personally, I'm willing to look to see if there's an understandable reason people say the things they do but based on several of your comments I have a hard time believing that you don't have bad opinions or a lack of compassion for the people behind conservative beliefs because you've often addressed those people. I've seen some hints of exceptions to that, but I see more here apart from convenient phrasing. That's for you to work out but for what it's worth I think that you could, you're willing to communicate and you're intelligent so that helps.

To address the bigger picture here, you still haven't addressed the left wing end of things beyond suggesting that the left wants everyone to have healthcare while conservatives just want it for the rich. To me, that doesn't reveal a complete picture at all. I'm sure there are conservatives who don't care about what happens to the poor or take positions like opposing illegal immigration out of a prejudice for Mexicans. Actually, I've heard some things in my lifetime coming from the right which have bothered me. These days, I think the bulk of it happens online, almost as if being in a chat room creates enough distance for people to show their true colors without consequences. hmmm.gif

Having said that you're assuming a lot about the motivations behind why people take certain policy stances with a comment like this...

"How about this. The left wants everyone to have healthcare and access to medical services, the right wants the people that can afford it to have healthcare and medical services."

Less government is at the heart of conservative beliefs and that applies to many topics. I believe in balance, (as many moderates do) that the poor and disabled should pay less and be assisted but it shouldn't get to the point that the middle and upper class are discouraged, we have to think about both sides. However I don't assume that conservatives who are further to the right don't care about the poor. For some it's about not wanting to be forced to do things, they want to make the decision on their own to donate money or be generous in their personal life, and many do. So if you want to know if there are greedy conservatives, the answer is absolutely. I don't have a problem with pointing that out, I have a problem with all encompassing negative viewpoints which won't hold up in every circumstance.

The most glaring problem with your claim goes beyond this, if you can't address the problems seen on the left then you have nothing to compare conservatives to, in order to claim they're less empathetic or humane. It starts to sound like you're just pointing out things you don't like. I should add that this is one of the circumstances where you addressed people rather than conservative beliefs.....

"They care about themselves, they care about their family, their friends, their community, their country just like anyone else. However they lack the empathy necessary to care about something "other""

I don't see how this trade-off continues without repeating all of this in a loop unless you're willing to address the left in a sincere way. Can you substatiate the idea that conservatives lack empathy for other groups, while liberals aren't guilty of similar behavior?

When looking at this election and recent history have you been able to pick up on the fact that there's been more violence and vulgarity coming from the left than with other political groups in America? If so, how does this fit in and why wouldn't it be significant?

This post has been edited by net2007: Jun 6 2017, 08:25 PM
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Ataal
post Jun 8 2017, 11:03 PM
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I don't have much time to address everything. Still at work. However, I stopped in to see if anyone was discussing the Comey thing.

All I really have time for is why it's "dead here." Forums like this are considered "old school." Social media is where most people debate now. If you follow George Takei on Facebook, you'll know what I mean. If it was simply because of conservatives, George Takei's threads wouldn't have thousands of comments and sub comments debating back and forth. I cannot even fathom how CR came to that conclusion objectively.
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 9 2017, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(Ataal @ Jun 8 2017, 07:03 PM) *
I don't have much time to address everything. Still at work. However, I stopped in to see if anyone was discussing the Comey thing.

All I really have time for is why it's "dead here." Forums like this are considered "old school." Social media is where most people debate now. If you follow George Takei on Facebook, you'll know what I mean. If it was simply because of conservatives, George Takei's threads wouldn't have thousands of comments and sub comments debating back and forth. I cannot even fathom how CR came to that conclusion objectively.

The Comey thing is still ongoing, since most of what he and the others have to say to the US Senators is in closed, classified meetings. Having gone through the Watergate thing live, the slowness of movement is understandable and expected. Real debate takes time and effort. The rest consists of comments, which is to debate as the song of a finch is to music. Nice, short, predictable but merely a tiny subset of the potential. Debate is indeed old school when looked at in this way, going far back into antiquity and getting more formalized with the ancient Greeks. Same can be said about music, for example the names of the modes, one of which is the major scale (Ionian).

Oh well, I bet people become sick of yakking away on social media. The real heavy lifting still happens in Congress and the courts, i.e., actual debate.

Real conversations also beat out what amounts to newer forms of an old idea: chat rooms. Talk about old digital school, eh? It'll be funny when the circle turns back, much like how pop music keeps heading back to old forms. I've noticed movement back to on-the-beat rhythms, away from syncopation, in music. The intervals remain the same because, like words in a language, there's only so many of them. Far fewer than words too, which means restrictive effects on emotions. But that's way tangent of the subject, except this way:

True believers can be dealt with only so many different ways. Not engaging in arguments that never go anywhere is one, and that's my currently preferred method. Worked in ancient Greece, still works, and will always work -- like chord progressions by seconds, thirds, fourths-fifths. Like major, minor, perfect, augmented, and diminished intervals.

Another take on things like Twitter -- it's far more dangerous to use than it seems, and President Trump might, if he's smart enough, be finally realizing this. President Obama was known for a lot of pauses in his speech patterns, which was him engaging brain before talking. President Trump is directly the opposite, maybe by design, but I don't think so. He's always had the habit of speaking before thinking. Then, which is typical of these types, he tries to justify his missteps.

Now there's a real old school character trait the goes back to the first vocalizations of life -- suffering from diarrhea of the mouth. Oops, seems predators were listening as well as the territory rivals and possible mates. Dang, and nest infiltrators!

While bickering on GUI-enabled BBS piped through the inherently low-security TCP/IP protocols, the participants are being watched, and it isn't government that's the primary risk. Nope, it's the predators lurking in the digital brush. Upgrade your OS/apps and get premium security software, eh? Or maybe not talk/holler so much on systems designed more to sell stuff than protect your ID?

Hey Donald the Lip, you capisci?

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post Jun 28 2017, 11:02 AM
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Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

I have a couple of friends who listen routinely to the FauX News Network and admit that they voted for Donnie & friends, but when we get together it is usually to play cards, and the only mention of trump is to name a suit as trump.

We have a friend who wants to work for a Democratic candidate next year. I am trying to persuade her to become a U.S. citizen so that she can register and vote as well. She is trying to sell us on the British Health Care System. Insulin is expensive!!!

We are currently taking a course in Non Violent Communication. No Trump supporters there...

I watch Stephen Colbert routinely and I believe the laughter when he mocks Trump is real and not canned...

When I go out to eat, the waitresses usually only mention Trump when they ask our opinion about when Trump will be impeached...

I don't really know if I can reason with a Trump supporter, so we are staying off America's Debate and communicating with our Senators. The downside is that every time I write to Washington, I get told that they need campaign donations so they can continue the good fight. (I have 298 contribution requests in my trash bin so far this morning.)

I recall forty to fifty years ago that I would argue with Michigan Militia members who felt there was a "Red hiding behind every tree." I would warn them not to wear red in the woods when they went hunting, and enough of them wrote the state legislators that "Blaze Orange" became the state's only legal color to wear when hunting.

Perhaps I'll just have to start naming a "master suit" when we play cards with our friends and so won't need to mention the word trump at all!
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post Jun 29 2017, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ Jun 28 2017, 07:02 AM) *
...
We are currently taking a course in Non Violent Communication. No Trump supporters there...
...

Makes perfect sense, since they're much less in need of such training/instruction than, say, Bernie supporters and assorted other Leftists/Progs/Dems, be it on college campuses, in the entertainment industry (fantasizing, to approving applause, about blowing up the White House; posing with a mock severed head dripping with blood; etc.), in the activism industry ("[Brigitte Gabriel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are] asking 4 an a$$ whipping'. I wish I could take their vaginas away - they don't deserve to be women."), in press rooms, and even among Dem party operatives.

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post Jul 1 2017, 08:21 AM
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[quote name='CruisingRam' date='May 1 2017, 08:51 PM' post='100034849']
So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?
I'd say that time ended when any opposition to Democrat policies was automatically characterized as racist and/or sexist and/or hating the poor and/or wanting everybody to die and/or XYZphobic. Being vilified as a moral monster repeatedly is the anti-thesis of "agree to disagree."

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler? I suppose it depends on whether or not they would have subsequently attacked their "friends" repeatedly or not....

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why a Trump supporter would want to reason with YOU. Seriously. You've pretty clearly indicated that there's no room for common ground, and since you're convinced that you're right and the Trump supporter is wrong AND evil, full stop, then why would a Trump supporter want to waste time and be subjected to your abuse?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?
Being a Trump supporter is not a fascist position. Why not? Because Trump isn't a fascist, and continually repeating that he is no more makes him one than does the constant repetition that Bruce Jenner is now a woman make him a woman.

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?
Well, since the average Trump supporters aren't fascists, the obvious answer is "no, you shouldn't do that." In the event that one encounters a self-proclaimed fascist who is a Trump supporter, then you should treat them the same way you would treat a self-proclaimed Chavista or Stalinist or Maoist or Castoite who supported Bernie Sanders. Oh, wait, let's back up a second. No, actually, based solely on the historical record, you should treat the fascist a darn site better than adherents of any of the above other flavors of collectivism.

Or maybe, just maybe, you could ride your high horse down from Peak Dudgeon, sit down with the Trump supporter and focus on what you have in common. You'll probably be surprised by how much there is....

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post Jul 2 2017, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 1 2017, 04:21 AM) *
<snip> ...maybe, just maybe, you could ride your high horse down from Peak Dudgeon, sit down with the Trump supporter and focus on what you have in common. You'll probably be surprised by how much there is....

The only Trump supporters I know in this highly Republican voting community are the friends we play cards with, and one of them is suffering from dementia...

I have had a hard time finding Trump's exact words as he rode down the elevator to announce that he was running as a Republican, but this snippet paraphrases it nicely:
QUOTE
"In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat," Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer in a 2004 interview. "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats. ...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans." link
At first I didn't understand why his Republican opponents did not use that against him, but now that they have swallowed his presence in their party with open arms and hailed him as their beloved leader they either need to learn to cook that smelly fish, throw him back, or try to teach him what the party line is. It would also help if he was given a good fast course on what the job of President entails, who can fire him and why, and how to act like a gentleman and a scholar.

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post Jul 2 2017, 12:40 PM
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It's interesting how few bumper stickers I've seen for Trump on vehicles in or going through this little cow town during the year's tourist season. Could just be coincidence or because I don't get around much anymore (heh, old jazz lyric quote), but usually I see lots of Republican paraphernalia during the season from the last election, such as Noboma or Don't Blame Me or the names of both candidates.

But then Trump didn't get the majority of votes, and he lost Colorado -- so it's probably due to not having much support at all in this neck of the hills. Another possibility is that those who voted Trump did so with no pride in their choice, perhaps even shame. Could have also been caution due to losing the 2012 election so badly and suffering the trauma of that. There were giant signs scattered all over the landscape that stayed up for months afterward, which I took as a sign of deeply felt disbelief.

Point being that talking with Trump supporters is something that I find difficult to do because, like admitting to voting for Nixon after his fall, they aren't talking about it. I don't blame them one bit, since not only is the man a disgusting human being, nobody can count on him from one moment to another. He is an extreme example of a mercurial personality type. Plus his really annoying habits of speaking without thinking first and trying to justify or deny his behavior are disastrous for all who are stuck within his orbit.

A POTUS does need to be consistent to be at all effective, as does a CEO and anybody wanting to be taken seriously. The only serious thing about Trump is that he scares more people the longer he remains in power, so the idea is to take as much power away from him before he messes up worse than an orangutan driving a big rig full of true self-proclaimed patriots through holiday traffic.

Hooray for the red white and blue, to hell with the orange. I guess there's a strategy in that because the next POTUS will likely be a Democrat, and it makes sense to take away presidential power before it happens. Huh, in that sense the Trump presidency might be looked at historically as a very good thing for balancing power. Maybe no more stupid foreign war adventures like Iraq? Maybe no more end runs around Congress ala Iran-Contra? We are already seeing the crumbling of the right-wing noise machine, since it's impossible to float a message that keeps doing 180's. Also, it gets harder each day to deny the reality that is Trump and Crew, let alone defend it.

Bottom line is that I avoid talking Trump with both non-supporters and supporters, the former because there's really not much more to say about him, and the latter because of no opportunity. He has become actually boring, like your typical braggart full of bull. The only interesting thing about him is how the Congress and courts are dealing with his deals. How does the country handle a POTUS who inspires no confidence in a system without a no-confidence mechanism?
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post Jul 3 2017, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 2 2017, 08:40 AM) *
How does the country handle a POTUS who inspires no confidence in a system without a no-confidence mechanism?

We have a friend with a long residency in America who was born in Britain... She has been asking that same question. I am trying to persuade her to consider becoming an American citizen so that she can vote in next year's election. She wants to keep her options open to return to Britain if Donald Trump is re-elected, but this is where her child and grandchild were born...

Someone told her that it would cost thousands to become an American Citizen... Personally, I went to Debbie Stabenow's website as she will likely be running for re-election next year. I copied down the address for her nearest Michigan office and put it in my wallet. If she is willing to make the contact and look into what it actually takes, I suspect that I can talk PE into driving her there to talk with Debbie about the process of becoming a citizen.

I have known many naturalized citizens, and it has been my experience that they contribute more to this society than those who feel obligated to load up their pickups with rifles and drive down the highway with Confederate Battle Flags flapping in their tailwind...

I could not find a way to contact Homeland Security Adviser Thomas Bossert (“No one would perceive that as a threat. I hope they don’t.”) to say that the video I woke to yesterday of Donald Trump beating up a reporter at a wrestling match is something that I do consider as a threat to our first amendment rights!

I did find that there is a site https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact to contact the White House and I expressed my opinion of Donald Trumps ability to govern, and asked him to turn his twitter machine over to the Secret Service or quit and try to salvage what is left of his business empire.

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post Jul 4 2017, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ Jul 3 2017, 12:15 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 2 2017, 08:40 AM) *
How does the country handle a POTUS who inspires no confidence in a system without a no-confidence mechanism?

We have a friend with a long residency in America who was born in Britain... She has been asking that same question. I am trying to persuade her to consider becoming an American citizen so that she can vote in next year's election. She wants to keep her options open to return to Britain if Donald Trump is re-elected, but this is where her child and grandchild were born...

Someone told her that it would cost thousands to become an American Citizen...

Sounds to me that someone is full of hooey regarding the cost of becoming a naturalized citizen, but I don't have any direct or indirect experience with this, so a call to whatever government entity is responsible for charging related fees would be the smart thing to do. Although it's nothing new that people prattle on and on about stuff they have wrong, it strikes me as more popular these days with a guy like Trump in office. Trump to truth is like kryptonite to Kent.

Maybe what we're dealing with here are the withering effects of trumptonite.

Trumptonite: 1) A substance that resembles orange-yellow cotton and has a high degree of infectious inflammation in the human brain, resulting in the loss of cognitive dissonance tolerance to the point of transforming Nugent Syndrome into snowflakery. 2) A person exposed to trumptonite in the early stages of infection before the mouth stops flapping contradictions and falsehoods. 3) Any number of brain ailments that cause people to be shunned from Thanksgiving dinner and other holiday celebrations. 4) Slang for waste water treatment plant sludge.

I want to believe that people have been and still are turning away from our current POTUS and Crew. It'll be a crying shame if he gets reelected, but with Russian hackers/crackers on your side, maybe? Or might impeachment go all the way through to indictment, conviction, and actual slammer time? Or might there be something that the Republican Party can do about him?

It's interesting stuff for me, but it's probably too early to start real conversations about it. I'm also thinking that Trump might have a full nervous breakdown, thereby leaving office for some kind of country-club loony bin where he can spend the rest of his days chasing little balls around the pasture. During this meanwhile, not bringing him up seems like the best thing to do in polite society.
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post Jul 13 2017, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 4 2017, 08:23 AM) *
I want to believe that people have been and still are turning away from our current POTUS and Crew. It'll be a crying shame if he gets reelected, but with Russian hackers/crackers on your side, maybe? Or might impeachment go all the way through to indictment, conviction, and actual slammer time? Or might there be something that the Republican Party can do about him?
It's interesting stuff for me, but it's probably too early to start real conversations about it. I'm also thinking that Trump might have a full nervous breakdown, thereby leaving office for some kind of country-club loony bin where he can spend the rest of his days chasing little balls around the pasture. During this meanwhile, not bringing him up seems like the best thing to do in polite society.

Last night, I sent an e-mail to Al Franken in response to a comment he made on page 2, of Giant of The Senate.
QUOTE
You mention the question that has been on my mind, “What the (expletive deleted) do we do now?”
1) We get politicians to accept that, DONALD TRUMP WILL LIKELY BE THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE BY BEING IMPEACHED!
2) We need to place a Vice President in place first who will not have reason to grant Donald Trump a blanket pardon after the pattern of Gerald Ford. (Might I suggest that John McCain likely would be glad to tell Donald Trump that he does not feel that a President like Donald Trump is a real hero to anyone.)
3) We need to persuade leaders of both parties that “Extreme Vetting” of future candidates before the Primary Elections is in order.
a. Have you read the Constitution?
b. Do you understand the job that you are applying for?
c. Can you explain what your party stands for?
4) Someone needs to get the message to Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell that trying to pass Donald Trumps platform will likely result in both parties losing representatives and Senators in next years election cycle.
5) Once Donald Trump is removed from office, encourage Federal Prosecutors to prosecute Trumps, Kushner, D.T.Jr. et al. under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. (Im certain that if you missed that episode of Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, that she would gladly have you on as a guest to allow her to replay the highlights of her May 27(?) show.
6) Thank my wife for encouraging me to edit this message down to what needs to be done!

I cannot honestly recall if The House and The Senate ever voted in unison to pass anything. However, I would personally like to see The House deliver to The Senate a Bill of Impeachment with no dissenting votes followed by a vote in The Senate with no Dissenting votes to remove Donald “I believe the economy runs better when Democrats are in charge” Trump from office.

I am encouraging anyone to contact their Representative and their Senators and make it very clear that Donald Trump may be able to draw large crowds to rallies, but we need a President, A House, and a Senate that can work together to keep The United States of America functioning as a free nation.

If I recall my American History correctly, my High School teacher told me that an attempt was made to impeach Andrew Johnson, Abe Lincolns successor. The Senator that cast the final vote to not impeach him lost his re-election bid and a subsequent campaign to be elected as dog catcher.

Donald Trump has proven to be an incompetent charlatan whose campaign appears to have colluded with Russia
QUOTE(Donald "t just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats" Trump)
Russia, IF YOURE LISTENING...


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post Jul 13 2017, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE(Curmudgeon @ Jul 12 2017, 10:42 PM) *
I am encouraging anyone to contact their Representative and their Senators and make it very clear that Donald Trump may be able to draw large crowds to rallies, but we need a President, A House, and a Senate that can work together to keep The United States of America functioning as a free nation.

That's a pretty good way to put it, since the notion of a free nation changes depending on who I'm talking with. Another good thing about this approach is that fewer and fewer people think Trump is a good choice, and more are thinking he's the worst POTUS in their memories of either their direct experiences or what they've learned about history.

Donald Trump isn't very smart, and this has been known since the 1980s. Apparently his son, the junior one, has less on the ball than his dad. I'm seeing the effects of affluenza here, the condition that makes people think that they're above the law due to having too much money and believe that their illogical thinking makes sense to others.

It does not.

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post Jul 13 2017, 04:50 PM
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Hi, longtime member, long-time since I posted.

QUOTE
So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?


Democracy requires us to agree to disagree. That still exists whether we acknowledge or practice it.
Nazi association language makes it hard to have a conversation with someone that you disagree with.
You can reason with a Trump supporter. I definitely agree that being a Trump supporter does not make you a fascist. Although you can have fascistic views and support Trump.
Cutting ties and shunning is not the most healthy approach.

Trump is a legally elected president of the United States. Many people voted for him for a variety of reasons. Many people presently support him for a wide variety of reasons.

Do I have concerns about the state of the republic? Yes.

Do I think the correct response is boycott, non-participation, or cessation of dialogue? Absolutely not.
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post Jul 13 2017, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 13 2017, 12:50 PM) *
Do I have concerns about the state of the republic? Yes.

Do I think the correct response is boycott, non-participation, or cessation of dialogue? Absolutely not.

Hi-yah Eeyore. You were gone but not forgotten, and welcome back to where people can use more than 140 chars per shot.

Agreed in general that keeping up a dialog is the only way to make friends and influence people peacefully. However, this requires a desire on both ends to understand each other, and I don't see that among those who still support the Trump presidency.

Therefore, avoiding the subject becomes not the best nor the worst strategy but the only one. That is unless you enjoy wrestling with pigs, as the old joke goes. Yep, better prepare to get all mucky and put up with the silly grins from those who enjoy the wallow.

On the plus side, Trump and Crew are so bad at politics that they incriminate themselves and then cook up stories that make sense only if you have affluenza. It's to our advantage that this syndrome is limited to a tiny fraction of the population and some of their sycophants -- the ones who don't realize that they're kissing up to the money, not the person. Also, it doesn't seem very common among judges and attorneys.

I do think that there are unintended positive consequence to the Trump presidency. It is a very memorable one from the standpoint of being horrible, so another Trump or someone worse won't have a hen's chance in the fox den of getting in. We also have zero doubt that the GOP has gone off the deep end by its support of Trump and his policies, even to the point of rationalizing away international intrigue that is downright treasonous, or so it appears.. The working public now has a clear idea of what it means to promise ice cream and instead deliver turds in a flaming bag, aka bait-and-switch.

Since it's just a matter of time, perhaps less than what I'm expecting, until Trump and Crew become interesting but harmless history, I'm sticking to my strategy of avoidance. That's because I have abandoned all hope that Trump supporters are even a tiny bit rational.

It's also my strategy with skunks, grizzly bears, sharks, pit bulls, regular bulls, and any restaurant that claims to have food as good as Mom's. Er, that's not exactly a positive endorsement unless you're selling pie, in which case make mine wild blueberry.
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