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> Florida Shooting Survivors, This is their generation's Vietnam draft?
AuthorMusician
post Feb 21 2018, 02:51 PM
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Imagine you're in high school in 1968. You've got a brother serving in Vietnam as an AF load master, and you write to him weekly like the rest of the family does. You hope the Vietnam police action will be over when you're up for the draft in three years, but then the riots at the Democratic presidential convention don't give much hope.

Now imagine you're in high school today, some shooter whacks your friends and teachers, and you're getting the same old noise from lawmakers that firearm controls don't work, so why try.

Why try to stop Vietnam since that is not an option?

What are the similarities and differences with what current high school students are doing about school and other mass shooting murders, and what high school students did about Vietnam -- mostly when they went to college?
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AuthorMusician
post Feb 26 2018, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Feb 21 2018, 10:51 AM) *
What are the similarities and differences with what current high school students are doing about school and other mass shooting murders, and what high school students did about Vietnam -- mostly when they went to college?


Similarities:

- Classmates killed due to adults not seeing the wrongness of the Vietnam police action and the frequency of school/other mass shootings. Since the adults wouldn't do anything about either situation, it's up to themselves to do something.

- Focus on disparaging youth as, with Vietnam, tools of the communists, and with school shootings, tools of the liberal mass media. And as with Vietnam, their critics keep the issues in the news, ergo in the electorate's minds -- free and effortless publicity.

- Established organizations perpetuating the situations. With Vietnam, there was the Republican Party, the John Birch Society, and a thousand + other points of inky darkness. With mass shootings, it's the Republican Party, NRA, and a thousand + trolls lurking in inky cyber darkness.

- Civil rights was pushing social change during Vietnam, whereas gay rights have been pushing social change today, along with revisiting classic civil rights.

Differences:

- Vietnam and the draft were not intermittent, whereas mass shootings, while having gained in frequency and amplitude, are still not daily worries. There's still a fairly good chance that this will blow over with time.

- It took a long time for the general population to figure out that Vietnam wasn't worth it; the general population has already figured out that firearms need to be more controlled.

- It took the fall of Saigon in 1975 to turn hearts and minds away. A game-changing mass shooting might not have happened yet, although there might not be a need for something like that, which leads to the greatest difference:

- Mass shooting is a domestic problem; Vietnam was a foreign policy problem. While it was easy to pull the wool on foreign policy, it is a lot harder to do that with domestic problems. Also, it's really hard to pull out of a country in which you live -- although not impossible and even a probability above 0.5 for those with the means to relocate.

Australia might be looking good for some upper-middle income and above families, for example.
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AuthorMusician
post Mar 7 2018, 05:30 PM
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Lewis Black is one of my generation's most funny and biting social/political comedians, in my of course humble opinion.

He uses so-called curse words frequently and easily, as if he were talking to real people (rather than fakers with oh-so-holy acts), so if you're easily offended by word choice, might want to skip the following link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMCmj3TjM9Q

He gets it. This is the new generation's Vietnam, and I bet that like Vietnam, it'll be a seed/magnet around which a whole boatload of positive change movements rally.

Around Vietnam were women's liberation, gay rights, drug legalization/decriminalization, students' rights, civil rights -- which had legs of its own that were longer/stronger than Vietnam -- and a lot of others that I either don't remember or do but feel it goes without saying.

I'm seeing a parallel happening with music too. I'm just not in it enough right now to describe what's going on better than this:

The Internet has enabled musicians to gather in various virtual places to teach/learn/share, somewhat like the recording studios of old brought the elites together, while the non-elites did it at jams/parties/impromptu concerts. There's a similar back-to-traditions thing like the folk/blues stuff of the 1950's-60's before disco hit and the roots of rap/hip-hop started in the shadows of the 1970's.

Also KISS and glam rock. Not especially important to anything beyond sales.

Then a move into highly technical stuff supported by the emerging high-tech toys, some better than others, a whole lot that were just plain stupid.

And now the musicians that put out instruction materials seem to be in harmony on this ancient and true musical idea -- you want to sound like yourself, to express what you feel, to find your own way around this thing we call music. But you also want to know music broadly and logically, and understand that discipline is as important as honesty.

I would also add that boxes will be put around you by others. Don't do it to yourself, but that goes beyond music into pretty much everything. And it might just be me, so grains of salt.

Anyway. Lewis Black gets it.
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AuthorMusician
post Mar 27 2018, 04:13 PM
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The March for Our Lives was a great success, with about 800,000 gathering in DC and a bunch more around the globe to bring the message that, basically, enough is enough. We even had some marchers in this little cow town turned bedroom community, along with a couple dozen pro-firearm types counter-protesting.

Will it all just peter out as the news cycle, which is about two hours long during these days of instant communications, moves onward -- as have other attempts at dealing with firearm violence in the USA? Well, people don't forget as easily as talking heads on the tubes (meaning screens) do, and the movements have continued on despite little to zero news coverage.

This tells me that a ground swell does indeed exist, and it isn't all about an amendment right but also about an inalienable one -- the right to life. An amendment right can be changed through the political process via court decisions, legislation, and even rewriting/removing the amendment. An inalienable right isn't suppressed so easily, although governments are known to do so. It's that the inalienable rights have persistence that go beyond governments, since they are so fundamental to the human condition. Among them are, famously, the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

How close is this to the anti-war movement during the Vietnam police action and draft? Both have taken a long time to become big issues; both involve the use of the ballot box rather than, say, armed revolution. The conflict is also between conservative and liberal viewpoints, although it seems to me that it's more along the lines of crazy versus common sense, or better, proven methodologies versus wishful fantasizing.

The kids who marched in this cow town carried signs. The counter-protesters carried firearms and flags (USA and DTOM). The kids are all right in my book. I feel a little embarrassed for the counter-protesters, but that's about it.

Now it's time to duke it out at the ballot boxes. It looks especially bad for the pro-firearm types, as the number of fatalities and injuries from firearm violence keeps getting worse (higher). For each victim, there are hundreds more who make the decision:

What right is more important, having firearms or life? Why not both? Just make firearms harder to get, that's all. Make some of them nearly impossible and disallow after-market tricks to make them more deadly.

And maybe tighten security around schools?

Definitely keep outfits like the NRA from making mass murder easier, as evidenced by the increasingly common mass murders by firearm usage.

Alternatively, disallow things like school campuses and other gathering places like churches, theaters, brick-mortar businesses, public swimming pools/recreational areas . . . er, maybe not. Maybe just control access to firearms, eh? Yeah, and once you clear the hurdles, you get the right to keep and bear your arms.

Just not around where people gather legally for whatever reasons? Seems reasonable to me.
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AuthorMusician
post Mar 30 2018, 01:51 PM
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This is very similar, spooky in a way, to how anti-war protesters were treated during the Vietnam police action/draft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCzV6IolPXs

It's a simple-minded argument that tries to vilify the protesters personally, attacking the person rather than addressing the issues. Among debate teams, it's known as an ad hominem strategy. It is not a very smart tactic in moderated debate, but in real life it works to turn hearts and undisciplined minds away from what protesters are talking about.

Some ad hominems are grounded in truth, while others have no basis in reality at all. The farther away from truth the attacks get, the weaker the arguments become until no reasonable person can accept them.

This is where the firearms debate has come over the decades, and it looks terrible for those who want unlimited access to firearms. Rather, the ideas of repealing the Second Amendment and that firearms are largely expensive toys rather than necessary tools for survival have been gaining ground.

Vietnam ended when Saigon fell. It was quite a different reality from peace with honor, and in many ways the adventure left this country, the USA, permanently damaged. The firearm debate, mostly won by the NRA until cracks started to form from mass shootings, has already damaged the country in that school-aged children fear for their lives -- and it isn't unreasonable paranoia. Nuts with guns are indeed out to get them. As the children fear, so do the parents. So do family members other than parents. So do many who watch on and decide that the pro-firearm side does not make sense.

It's probably too late to reverse the trend. So hurry up and buy more firearms, especially those makes/models preferred by mass shooters, before the nation repeals the Second Amendment or renders it impotent via court decisions and legislation.

It would make about as much sense as volunteering to fight in Vietnam circa 1973.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Mar 30 2018, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 27 2018, 11:13 AM) *
The kids who marched in this cow town carried signs.


The average age was around 49 years old

QUOTE
“Like other resistance protests, and like previous gun-control marches, the March for Our Lives was mostly women. Whereas the 2017 Women’s March was 85 percent women, the March for Our Lives was 70 percent women. Further, participants were highly educated; 72 percent had a BA or higher.

Contrary to what’s been reported in many media accounts, the D.C. March for Our Lives crowd was not primarily made up of teenagers. Only about 10 percent of the participants were under 18. The average age of the adults in the crowd was just under 49 years old, which is older than participants at the other marches I’ve surveyed but similar to the age of the average participant at the Million Moms March in 2000, which was also about gun control.”


What are the similarities and differences with what current high school students are doing about school and other mass shooting murders, and what high school students did about Vietnam -- mostly when they went to college?

Well, the above sort of answers...this isn't exactly a highschool-age crowd.
Back in the Vietnam era (or maybe just a tad before), shooting clubs were common at high schools.
It was no big deal for kids to shoot targets down at some Boy’s Club a block away from school either.
Most probably recognized a square root symbol isn't a threat
So, I don't see a lot of similarities.
Lots of differences though.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Mar 30 2018, 05:47 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Apr 1 2018, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Mar 30 2018, 12:12 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 27 2018, 11:13 AM) *
The kids who marched in this cow town carried signs.


The average age was around 49 years old

QUOTE
“Like other resistance protests, and like previous gun-control marches, the March for Our Lives was mostly women. Whereas the 2017 Women’s March was 85 percent women, the March for Our Lives was 70 percent women. Further, participants were highly educated; 72 percent had a BA or higher.

Contrary to what’s been reported in many media accounts, the D.C. March for Our Lives crowd was not primarily made up of teenagers. Only about 10 percent of the participants were under 18. The average age of the adults in the crowd was just under 49 years old, which is older than participants at the other marches I’ve surveyed but similar to the age of the average participant at the Million Moms March in 2000, which was also about gun control.”


What are the similarities and differences with what current high school students are doing about school and other mass shooting murders, and what high school students did about Vietnam -- mostly when they went to college?

Well, the above sort of answers...this isn't exactly a highschool-age crowd.
Back in the Vietnam era (or maybe just a tad before), shooting clubs were common at high schools.
It was no big deal for kids to shoot targets down at some Boy’s Club a block away from school either.
Most probably recognized a square root symbol isn't a threat
So, I don't see a lot of similarities.
Lots of differences though.


So you don't think older people joined the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam police action? Okay, but you're wrong, especially as Nixon's peace with honor became a joke and the Pentagon Papers were published.

Another major influence was returning vets.

I don't remember any boys' clubs around my neck of the woods, but then that neck was pretty darn thick and long with unfenced wilderness. We called it the woods. But focus in here, the commonality has to do with shared risk, bad policies, bad logic, and some kind of creature as POTUS. It has to do with right-wing celebrities/politicians taking cheap shots at kids and young adults. And it has to do with upcoming generations of voters making up their minds about how important the Second Amendment really is.

Kinda like how upcoming generations of voters decided, along with lots of folks from older generations, that there had been enough Vietnam, er, stuff shoveled their ways.

But you may be right that there's not much similar at all. I just don't agree. It's not exactly the same, and the issue isn't foreign policy so much as domestic, but there's a lot of rhyming going on.

Foreign policy could be drawn in similar to how Vietnam drew in domestic policy. Get rid of Nixon; get rid of Trump. Reduce police brutality; reduce police homicide. Look at alternative energy sources; implement alternative energy sources. Fix a really broken economic system -- ah, still working on it, sort of. Gay/women's/minority rights -- yes, and we're doing it again a bunch of decades later.

Or it might just fizzle out once the kids get married and start their families, like how the 1980s turned out.

Vietnam had to end. Will mass murders also have to end this time around? Seems pretty unlikely, since getting out of Vietnam meant having someplace else to go. That's not a reasonable option for most high school students, their parents, their families, and those of us who sympathize. It's a domestic issue, which means the mess has to be cleaned up or it'll just get worse and worse and . . . maybe that is indeed how this turns out.

I, however, rather doubt it. Heh, especially as Dah Nuge pipes up with his take on who has and who does not have a soul. Oh go eat a deer raw, Ted.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Apr 1 2018, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 31 2018, 07:11 PM) *
So you don't think older people joined the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam police action?


AM, I neither stated nor implied that.
But I'm pretty sure the average age wasn't 49.
If only ten percent of the crowd is high school aged, and the average is 49 (basically the same mom demographic of other anti-gun protests),
isn't it just a little fallacious to claim this is a young person's movement (with, maybe just a few older folks joining in)?

Per the rest of your point, I think any comparison to Vietnam is parody-level hyperbole.
I guess I could post some statistics but I've done so many, many times already.
If you ignore Chicago (since 2016...the very year some very strict gun laws went into place there, btw, that one city has the highest murder rate in 2 decades...and is responsible for a large percentage of the increase in the amount of murders for the country in since 2016).

Firearm violence has been in a relatively steady decline for the past quarter of a century.

I'm very heavily involved in a lot of volunteer activities around our military base, currently.
And I get all the e mails/Facebook pleas to join this or that cause.
This month it's child abuse prevention month. Or maybe week? Or perhaps it's the year of the child? I forget, there are so many causes....
I am supposed to demonstrate that "I care" by making pinwheels, distributing them and placing one in my yard.
To me this is even worse that SPAM chain e mails that tell me to "You're a fierce, beautiful and awesome woman! Now forward this to all the fierce, beautiful women you know!"
I can just delete the above, the other one is actually asking me to waste my time and energy to "prove I care".
And of course, strong-arm all my friends and associates to do the same.
So, no, I have not placed a pinwheel in my yard. I guess that means I support child abuse.
I won't wear "armbands of solidarity" for whatever either. Nor wristbands, pins, hats, ad nauseum ect.
No, not even ribbons...though I've tied yellow ribbons around trees for homecomings as that isn't about me, but actually about the person coming home and seeing it as a welcome.
Nutshell: I'm not into empty displays of virtue signaling.
Humans are odd creatures.

Edited to add: Bump stocks have been banned due in no part whatsoever to protests (though I'm sure they're patting themselves on the back).
I agree with that measure. Bump stocks are a faulty design, much like purposely making a component for a car that makes it speed up and go off the road.
If they want to own an automatic weapon they can go through the process of purchasing an automatic weapon.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Apr 1 2018, 10:33 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Apr 26 2018, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Apr 1 2018, 09:01 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 31 2018, 07:11 PM) *
So you don't think older people joined the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam police action?


AM, I neither stated nor implied that.
But I'm pretty sure the average age wasn't 49.
If only ten percent of the crowd is high school aged, and the average is 49 (basically the same mom demographic of other anti-gun protests),
isn't it just a little fallacious to claim this is a young person's movement (with, maybe just a few older folks joining in)?

Per the rest of your point, I think any comparison to Vietnam is parody-level hyperbole.

It's still early. The Vietnam draft was in effect from 1964 to 1973, about nine years. Pushback didn't start out as big as it became either.

Your opinion is noted, but if I agreed, we'd both be wrong -- didn't invent that comeback, but I think it's funny.
QUOTE
I guess I could post some statistics but I've done so many, many times already.
If you ignore Chicago (since 2016...the very year some very strict gun laws went into place there, btw, that one city has the highest murder rate in 2 decades...and is responsible for a large percentage of the increase in the amount of murders for the country in since 2016).

Firearm violence has been in a relatively steady decline for the past quarter of a century.

Logically, violence against self (suicide) has to be included under the broad idea of firearm violence, as do any acts of firearm violence not resulting in death.
QUOTE
I'm very heavily involved in a lot of volunteer activities around our military base, currently.
And I get all the e mails/Facebook pleas to join this or that cause.
This month it's child abuse prevention month. Or maybe week? Or perhaps it's the year of the child? I forget, there are so many causes....
I am supposed to demonstrate that "I care" by making pinwheels, distributing them and placing one in my yard.
To me this is even worse that SPAM chain e mails that tell me to "You're a fierce, beautiful and awesome woman! Now forward this to all the fierce, beautiful women you know!"
I can just delete the above, the other one is actually asking me to waste my time and energy to "prove I care".
And of course, strong-arm all my friends and associates to do the same.
So, no, I have not placed a pinwheel in my yard. I guess that means I support child abuse.
I won't wear "armbands of solidarity" for whatever either. Nor wristbands, pins, hats, ad nauseum ect.
No, not even ribbons...though I've tied yellow ribbons around trees for homecomings as that isn't about me, but actually about the person coming home and seeing it as a welcome.
Nutshell: I'm not into empty displays of virtue signaling.
Humans are odd creatures.

Yep, I include religious symbols and national flag pins in there. However, the sense I get from the kids is that they're dead serious about reducing mass murders. What gets spammed about in email strikes me as irrelevant, much like the peace signs of the 1960s. Great, you're for peace. Willing to go to Canada? How's about a US penitentiary for refusing to register for the draft or not paying war taxes of the income variety? Gonna try for conscientious objector status and serve as a medic? Or are you going to get deferrals until the police action blows over?

There are indeed big differences between the Vietnam draft and mass shootings -- one was legal, the other isn't; one was enabled by government lies, the other by capitalist manufacturers of the mass shooters' tools.

Anyway, older citizens might be okay with token support, just like many were during the Vietnam draft. And just like with the anti-draft/war movement, it'll take time for the kids to organize and figure out how best to change the mass murder situation in the United States of America. You know, to have less of them.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be via the ballot box rather than stuff like taking over college campus buildings. I don't sense any ill will from the kids toward older farts, and that goes beyond firearm violence and into general attitudes. My generation had lots of hatred for anyone older than 30. And now we can't stand anyone under 60 rolleyes.gif We are so in love with ourselves? No, that's a problem the younger generations have to deal with. My generation is just stupid. I mean, we bought pet freaking rocks for krikey sake! Thought platform shoes were cool, made the Monkeys a thing and fell into disco. That last one is simply unforgivable.

QUOTE
Edited to add: Bump stocks have been banned due in no part whatsoever to protests (though I'm sure they're patting themselves on the back).
I agree with that measure. Bump stocks are a faulty design, much like purposely making a component for a car that makes it speed up and go off the road.
If they want to own an automatic weapon they can go through the process of purchasing an automatic weapon.

Funny that the Florida incident seemed to coincide with the firearm market's rejection of bump stocks. But then those out to kill lots of people in a crowd aren't very concerned about quality. Quantity counts.
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