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> Political Correctness, Political Correctness, And Ben Carson's Take On It.
net2007
post Nov 3 2015, 09:27 PM
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First off I wanted to start by saying I haven't done political debating in a long time, and I didn't think that id be back here to do this kind of thing but I got that urge to speak up again and this really struck my interest so I think I want to give it a try for a bit. As I write this I'm very sick so my responses may be limited but I'm going to try. I hope everyone here is doing well.

Onto the topic, I'm guessing most here have heard of Ben Carson by now, but for those who haven't he's a retired Neurosurgeon who was the Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He was once a liberal Democrat, but get this, he's now a conservative Republican in large part because the things he was told about Republicans being hateful and racist turned out not to be so accurate. He's now a candidate in the Republican primary who is doing quite well, surpassing Donald Trump as a front runner in some polls.

Here's the first speech I want to focus on, Obama is present and Carson actually manages to get some laughes out of him, although he opposes him politically. The whole speech is interesting but If you want to see the relevant part id start it at 2:35 in... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb6NU1giRA (this was aired on C-SPAN)

Some quotes from the speech...

QUOTE
"I have discovered, however, in recent years that it's very difficult to speak to a large group of people these days and not offend someone. [laughter] And people walk away with their feelings on their shoulders waiting for you to say something, ah, did you hear that? The pc police are out in force at all times. I remember once I was talking about the difference between a human brain and a dogs's grain, and a man and a dog's brain, and a man got offended. You can't talk about dogs like that. [laughter] People focus in on that, completely miss the point of what you're saying. And we've reached reach the point where people are afraid to actually talk about what they want to say because somebody might be offended.............

one last thing about political correctness, which I think is a horrible thing, by the way. I'm very, very come compassionate, and I'm not never out to offend anyone. But pc is dangerous. Because, you see, this country one of the founding principles was freedom of thought and freedom of expression. and it muffles people. It puts a muzzle on them. And at the same time, keeps people from discussing important issues while the fabric of this society is being changed. And we cannot fall for that trick. And what we need to do is start talking about things, talking about things that are important."


Full transcript..... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2986815/posts


Here's another video from CBS news where Carson talked about PC again, this time in reference to the Black Lives Matter movement, this one is much shorter.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-ben-carso...-from-ferguson/

In short he says that...

QUOTE
"there is an underlying bulliness to political correctness" and goes on to say "A certain poltician said all lives matter and he got so much grief that he came back and apoligised (no I'm sorry) You know, that's bullying, of course all lives matter, of course we need to be concerned about everyone, of course we need to extend respect to everyone."


The politician who's name wasn't mentioned was former Maryland Govenor Martin O'Malley (D)....

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/omalley-...article/2568544

I want to give my take on what Ben Carson is saying and PC, then let the members here give their opinion.

While I believe it's counterproductive when someone intentionally says something hurtful to someone else, and I don't like it, I think PC is being abused and it really has gotten to the point where some are afraid to speak. It's often directed at conservatives but I don't view liberals or Democrats, who are often the ones encouraging politically correct speech, as being more sensitive than other political groups in this country, it depends on the individual. I say this because there are so many examples of liberals or Democrats being hurtful or hateful towards other groups, so in terms of temperament they're very much human. I was once told that "hate isn't a liberal or conservative trait, it's a human trait." and I think that statement holds water. With that said I do find many liberals to be reasonable, but it's a mixed bag as with any constituency.

When someone is being insulting it can hurt, but I'm not sure what we can do about it when matters of race, sexual orientation, and politics fire so many people up. On the other end of things, there are also cases where things are just taken the wrong way, or taken out of context, and some make little things out to be more than what they really are. I believe this is what Ben Carson is referring to when he says some are afraid to speak, it's those moments where someone is dismissed or labeled when they aren't trying to be insulting or offensive. I don't believe those who take issue with PC do so because they want to hurt others, I think most take issue with it because it's hard not to offend someome when an opinion is given, which suggest we live in a hypersensitive society.

Feel free to disagree with the idea that liberals are more prone to supporting politically correct speech, it's debatable, but I notice a pattern where Democrats, who have a huge liberal base, are less likely to publicly come out against PC. That is what had me suspicious but there is some polling information that supports this as well, although id like to find polls from more sources. Here are two polls I came across.


The first poll is about PC in general....

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_con...blem_in_america

It says...

QUOTE
"79% of American Adults think political correctness is a serious problem in America today"

(Which is a strong majority but it goes on to say there is a divide on this issue between the Republicans and Democrats.....)

"While 74% of Republicans and 66% of those not affiliated with either of the major political parties think the United States is now too politically correct, just 35% of Democrats agree."



The poll below suggest the Democratic party is more in favor of criminalizing speeches which could be considered hateful to a "particular group", but who gets to decide what's hateful and where it should be applied? The problem I see is there's a strong potential for bias with this, where each group is out to defend sensitivity towards their race, their political party, or their religious beliefs, ect. I agree with the majority who say we're too politically correct, but if it's something that will be pushed then it should be there to represent everyone. Sensitivity shouldn't apply to some groups more than others...

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/41867...ent-charles-c-w

Questions for debate...

1. Is political correctness detrimental to our society, as Ben Carson is suggesting?

2. If you believe political correctness is beneficial, can you explain where it's helping, and why it's important?

3. Is there an imbalance with political correctness, where some are more likely to be sympathized with than others?
(this can be in regards to race, sexual orintation, political parties, ect.)

4. What are your thoughts on Ben Carson, and why he is resonating with so many Republicans when compared to other Republican candidates?


This post has been edited by net2007: Nov 4 2015, 12:29 AM
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AuthorMusician
post Mar 8 2016, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 7 2016, 08:37 PM) *
It's a crazy situation we're seeing with everybody fighting, the Republican party is a mess, I've never seen it quite this bad, but I don't forget the things I've seen and experienced coming from the left. It should also be recognized who they're getting behind right now, they have also backed a candidate who's bad news. I don't understand why people vote the way they do, it's like half of those who vote have issues.

Welcome to the real world. Carson is history, so this thread has become history as well. But you're right on, the Republican Party of 2016 is very much like the Democratic Party of 1968.

Were you even alive back then? I was a junior in high school, looking at the Vietnam draft and wondering what this Woodstock stuff was all about, while having an oldest brother out there over yonder getting shot at by strangers in a strange land.

Oh hell yeah we have issues. Don't you? Do you even care about anything? Or is it like being an observer and not a participant, kinda munching hot dogs in the stands while actual people play the game?

I swear (and often), it seems that life is floating over these newer generations. Could be old age is infecting my noggin, but good Lord, how flucking dim can you get?

Issues. Life is full of them, and you know it.
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Gray Seal
post Mar 8 2016, 03:16 PM
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net2007 has offered his observations without being derogatory. There is not a more thoughtful and thinking person on ad.gif.

It can be frustrating to see voting patterns and wonder what the heck is going on. I experience the same frustration as I read from net2007 and AuthorMusician. Confusion and frustration are responses that say nothing about the thought processes behind them. We all have these hopes that this next election will be better and when it looks like they will come out the same or worse it is hard on us as we do care and do think about what needs to be different.

I see the two major parties coalescing while others see them diverging. How can that be?

People are confused and worried. They should be. Unfortunately there is no vision to see what has caused our problems and hence no ability of voters to pick candidates who will do the right thing. Trump reflects this unsettled wave somewhat. I am surprised Sanders is not getting more support from this aspect of the public. I guess there are more Democrats who are oblivious.

The University of Missouri discussed incident is caused by young people being raised to think government is suppose to take care of them and solve their problems and respond to any and all concerns. Being a victim of racism is being taught to be the golden ticket to preference and advantage. The role of government as the parents to all of us is inappropriate. It is not politically correct to question ones' parents.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Mar 8 2016, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Mar 8 2016, 10:16 AM) *
People are confused and worried. They should be. Unfortunately there is no vision to see what has caused our problems and hence no ability of voters to pick candidates who will do the right thing. Trump reflects this unsettled wave somewhat. I am surprised Sanders is not getting more support from this aspect of the public. I guess there are more Democrats who are oblivious.


I'd like to see Sanders with a higher following. But I believe what motivates many (not all) Hillary voters is precisely what motivates many (not all) Trump voters.
Anger at the other side.
They want the candidate the other side "hates most" to win.
It's not all supporters, but I believe it's a large enough portion to make a serious impact on the election process. It might be a majority of supporters. There's a lot of anger out there.

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Gray Seal
post Mar 8 2016, 05:21 PM
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There is much concern in the Republican hierarchy about Trump. They are considering putting their support behind Hillary Clinton. Clinton is quite content with many neocon policies. Sanders would be the protest vote. Sanders also has neocon views but is labeled much more strongly as different.

Hillary and Trump do both share strong negatives, true. Status quo Republicans will have no trouble supporting Clinton over Trump.

Trump generates anger from within the Republican Party. I do not think Sanders generates anger within the Democrat Party. I still go with worry and concern being the driving force in the Republican Party. Worry and concern is present in the Democrat Party or Clinton would be getting 90% of the vote. There is not as much angst among Democrats. Democrats are more oblivious that something is wrong.
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net2007
post Mar 9 2016, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 8 2016, 09:33 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 7 2016, 08:37 PM) *
It's a crazy situation we're seeing with everybody fighting, the Republican party is a mess, I've never seen it quite this bad, but I don't forget the things I've seen and experienced coming from the left. It should also be recognized who they're getting behind right now, they have also backed a candidate who's bad news. I don't understand why people vote the way they do, it's like half of those who vote have issues.

Welcome to the real world. Carson is history, so this thread has become history as well. But you're right on, the Republican Party of 2016 is very much like the Democratic Party of 1968.

Were you even alive back then? I was a junior in high school, looking at the Vietnam draft and wondering what this Woodstock stuff was all about, while having an oldest brother out there over yonder getting shot at by strangers in a strange land.

Oh hell yeah we have issues. Don't you? Do you even care about anything? Or is it like being an observer and not a participant, kinda munching hot dogs in the stands while actual people play the game?

I swear (and often), it seems that life is floating over these newer generations. Could be old age is infecting my noggin, but good Lord, how flucking dim can you get?

Issues. Life is full of them, and you know it.


Well the thread had two focuses, PC and Ben Carson, the primary focus was PC, but I found Carsons take on it to be interesting. As far as he goes I think his popularity faded when he started getting emotional under the pressure of the media, and there were a few other things. I think he would have been a better choice than Trump, but I've really had my eyes on John Kasich over the last couple months. He doesn't have much of a shot, but to me he's the reasonable one in all this noise.

I don't understand the tone you threw at me though, of course I have issues to deal with myself but the situation we have here isn't good, it's not just me saying these things. I really do think voters right now are losing sight, and that's on both sides. If what I said came off as a little harsh consider the context, frustrating times, lots of figting, and a lot of bad decisions being made. There's a whole lot worse than me saying "issues".

I believe I've given you the impression that I'm too young to understand these things, but they've effected my life directly in some pretty big ways, you might be surprised if you knew my story, it hasn't been an easy life. I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I don't feel I relate to my younger friends much of the time, it's probably why I find myself here.

Even things you've said here I've related to, I bumped your "Interesting games" thread for a reason, I liked it, and had input on it, we both have interest in playing music as well. The non political threads on those types of topics I find to be necessary. As far as this political stuff goes, I'm not a liberal, we have different views on a lot of that, but is that what it is? Is it my critisisms on liberalizm and the Democratic party?



Gray Seal
QUOTE
net2007 has offered his observations without being derogatory. There is not a more thoughtful and thinking person on ad.gif.

It can be frustrating to see voting patterns and wonder what the heck is going on. I experience the same frustration as I read from net2007 and AuthorMusician. Confusion and frustration are responses that say nothing about the thought processes behind them. We all have these hopes that this next election will be better and when it looks like they will come out the same or worse it is hard on us as we do care and do think about what needs to be different.

I see the two major parties coalescing while others see them diverging. How can that be?

People are confused and worried. They should be. Unfortunately there is no vision to see what has caused our problems and hence no ability of voters to pick candidates who will do the right thing. Trump reflects this unsettled wave somewhat. I am surprised Sanders is not getting more support from this aspect of the public. I guess there are more Democrats who are oblivious.

The University of Missouri discussed incident is caused by young people being raised to think government is suppose to take care of them and solve their problems and respond to any and all concerns. Being a victim of racism is being taught to be the golden ticket to preference and advantage. The role of government as the parents to all of us is inappropriate. It is not politically correct to question ones' parents.


That's what I was getting at, people are very confused and worried, I am as well but I'm not going to let my vote be based on it, if the general election comes around and we're looking at Trump and Hillary, I'll be voting independant more than likely.

There is some hope on the Republican side still, it's a long shot but there's been talk of a contested convention, that some are taking seriously at this point. It may not happen but it's interesting....

Trump has 384\1,237 delegates required to be nominated.
Cruz has 300\1,237
Rubio has 151\1,237
Kasich has 37\1,237

If none of them have enough to reach that mark Trump can be stopped, from what I gather many within the GOP are suggesting this should be a strategy to prevent Trump from getting the nomination. All of the other candidates beat Hillary or at least break even with her in General Election polling, Kasich does the best against her, running several points ahead.

That topic needs a thread actually.
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AuthorMusician
post Mar 9 2016, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 9 2016, 05:55 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 8 2016, 09:33 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 7 2016, 08:37 PM) *
It's a crazy situation we're seeing with everybody fighting, the Republican party is a mess, I've never seen it quite this bad, but I don't forget the things I've seen and experienced coming from the left. It should also be recognized who they're getting behind right now, they have also backed a candidate who's bad news. I don't understand why people vote the way they do, it's like half of those who vote have issues.

Welcome to the real world. Carson is history, so this thread has become history as well. But you're right on, the Republican Party of 2016 is very much like the Democratic Party of 1968.

Were you even alive back then? I was a junior in high school, looking at the Vietnam draft and wondering what this Woodstock stuff was all about, while having an oldest brother out there over yonder getting shot at by strangers in a strange land.

Oh hell yeah we have issues. Don't you? Do you even care about anything? Or is it like being an observer and not a participant, kinda munching hot dogs in the stands while actual people play the game?

I swear (and often), it seems that life is floating over these newer generations. Could be old age is infecting my noggin, but good Lord, how flucking dim can you get?

Issues. Life is full of them, and you know it.


Well the thread had two focuses, PC and Ben Carson, the primary focus was PC, but I found Carsons take on it to be interesting. As far as he goes I think his popularity faded when he started getting emotional under the pressure of the media, and there were a few other things. I think he would have been a better choice than Trump, but I've really had my eyes on John Kasich over the last couple months. He doesn't have much of a shot, but to me he's the reasonable one in all this noise.

I don't understand the tone you threw at me though, of course I have issues to deal with myself but the situation we have here isn't good, it's not just me saying these things. I really do think voters right now are losing sight, and that's on both sides. If what I said came off as a little harsh consider the context, frustrating times, lots of figting, and a lot of bad decisions being made. There's a whole lot worse than me saying "issues".

I believe I've given you the impression that I'm too young to understand these things, but they've effected my life directly in some pretty big ways, you might be surprised if you knew my story, it hasn't been an easy life. I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I don't feel I relate to my younger friends much of the time, it's probably why I find myself here.

Even things you've said here I've related to, I bumped your "Interesting games" thread for a reason, I liked it, and had input on it, we both have interest in playing music as well. The non political threads on those types of topics I find to be necessary. As far as this political stuff goes, I'm not a liberal, we have different views on a lot of that, but is that what it is? Is it my critisisms on liberalizm and the Democratic party?

No, I just found it to be irritating that your observation on voters having issues didn't include yourself, but now your reply has included yourself. Think of the tone as having been a challenge, and you met that challenge. As with you, I have a lot of issues. I happen to agree that anger is higher this election season than in pretty much all the others I've watched, with the possible exception of Ross Perot supporters. They oozed anger, even at the polls.

I'm not sure how important PC is to anyone other than Carson. My take is that this tactic lost its appeal a couple of election seasons ago, probably because it's not that big a deal and depends a lot on subjectivity. One person's PC, like the blues, isn't necessarily like another person's PC.

Not sure how to take the stated support of other threads. I guess thanks? But I really didn't solicit your participation, so maybe okay? Maybe there's a PC way to handle that, but I'm really at a loss how it's at all important to this thread. Maybe I should be thanked for participating in threads not of my making? Naw, I just participate because it's an exercise in writing, also thinking things through.

Anyway, if all this is going to be about is PC, I'm likely done contributing. Carson was only nominally interesting to me, but he did gain some support. The sleepy style seems to me to have been his downfall. So with that, off to other, um, issues thumbsup.gif
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net2007
post Mar 9 2016, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 9 2016, 10:27 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 9 2016, 05:55 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 8 2016, 09:33 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 7 2016, 08:37 PM) *
It's a crazy situation we're seeing with everybody fighting, the Republican party is a mess, I've never seen it quite this bad, but I don't forget the things I've seen and experienced coming from the left. It should also be recognized who they're getting behind right now, they have also backed a candidate who's bad news. I don't understand why people vote the way they do, it's like half of those who vote have issues.

Welcome to the real world. Carson is history, so this thread has become history as well. But you're right on, the Republican Party of 2016 is very much like the Democratic Party of 1968.

Were you even alive back then? I was a junior in high school, looking at the Vietnam draft and wondering what this Woodstock stuff was all about, while having an oldest brother out there over yonder getting shot at by strangers in a strange land.

Oh hell yeah we have issues. Don't you? Do you even care about anything? Or is it like being an observer and not a participant, kinda munching hot dogs in the stands while actual people play the game?

I swear (and often), it seems that life is floating over these newer generations. Could be old age is infecting my noggin, but good Lord, how flucking dim can you get?

Issues. Life is full of them, and you know it.


Well the thread had two focuses, PC and Ben Carson, the primary focus was PC, but I found Carsons take on it to be interesting. As far as he goes I think his popularity faded when he started getting emotional under the pressure of the media, and there were a few other things. I think he would have been a better choice than Trump, but I've really had my eyes on John Kasich over the last couple months. He doesn't have much of a shot, but to me he's the reasonable one in all this noise.

I don't understand the tone you threw at me though, of course I have issues to deal with myself but the situation we have here isn't good, it's not just me saying these things. I really do think voters right now are losing sight, and that's on both sides. If what I said came off as a little harsh consider the context, frustrating times, lots of figting, and a lot of bad decisions being made. There's a whole lot worse than me saying "issues".

I believe I've given you the impression that I'm too young to understand these things, but they've effected my life directly in some pretty big ways, you might be surprised if you knew my story, it hasn't been an easy life. I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I don't feel I relate to my younger friends much of the time, it's probably why I find myself here.

Even things you've said here I've related to, I bumped your "Interesting games" thread for a reason, I liked it, and had input on it, we both have interest in playing music as well. The non political threads on those types of topics I find to be necessary. As far as this political stuff goes, I'm not a liberal, we have different views on a lot of that, but is that what it is? Is it my critisisms on liberalizm and the Democratic party?

No, I just found it to be irritating that your observation on voters having issues didn't include yourself, but now your reply has included yourself. Think of the tone as having been a challenge, and you met that challenge. As with you, I have a lot of issues. I happen to agree that anger is higher this election season than in pretty much all the others I've watched, with the possible exception of Ross Perot supporters. They oozed anger, even at the polls.

I'm not sure how important PC is to anyone other than Carson. My take is that this tactic lost its appeal a couple of election seasons ago, probably because it's not that big a deal and depends a lot on subjectivity. One person's PC, like the blues, isn't necessarily like another person's PC.

Not sure how to take the stated support of other threads. I guess thanks? But I really didn't solicit your participation, so maybe okay? Maybe there's a PC way to handle that, but I'm really at a loss how it's at all important to this thread. Maybe I should be thanked for participating in threads not of my making? Naw, I just participate because it's an exercise in writing, also thinking things through.

Anyway, if all this is going to be about is PC, I'm likely done contributing. Carson was only nominally interesting to me, but he did gain some support. The sleepy style seems to me to have been his downfall. So with that, off to other, um, issues thumbsup.gif


What I take out of this is that many are going to vote based on emotion, and candidates who can do more harm than good so I think they've lost touch some, I'm sure they feel differently. I want to vote for the right reasons, I think many are feeling the same so I'm not unique in that respect, and I'm not unique in being critical of Trump or Hillary supporters. On the Republican side Trump has a lot of opposition, we'll see if it's enough.

And okay man, good luck.

This post has been edited by net2007: Mar 9 2016, 11:17 PM
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Julian
post Mar 11 2016, 05:33 PM
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My old English teacher, the author and journalist Joe Treasure, has an interesting take on political correctness on his blog, here

This paragraph sum up how I feel about it very neatly (with emphasis my own)

QUOTE
Political correctness was always a redundant concept. Its territory was already covered by three other categories: accuracy, politeness, and euphemism. All the satirical jokes came under the third heading – calling short people ‘vertically challenged’, for example. As for accuracy and politeness, they’re timeless values that need no apology, though they probably demand more conscious effort in inclusive, multicultural times.


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AuthorMusician
post Mar 16 2016, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE(Julian @ Mar 11 2016, 01:33 PM) *
My old English teacher, the author and journalist Joe Treasure, has an interesting take on political correctness on his blog, here

This paragraph sum up how I feel about it very neatly (with emphasis my own)

QUOTE
Political correctness was always a redundant concept. Its territory was already covered by three other categories: accuracy, politeness, and euphemism. All the satirical jokes came under the third heading – calling short people ‘vertically challenged’, for example. As for accuracy and politeness, they’re timeless values that need no apology, though they probably demand more conscious effort in inclusive, multicultural times.

But everyone knows that short people have no reason to live.

It is of course Randy Newman's take on 1970s PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

And then there's this:

Let's Drop the Big One (Political Science)

It was hilarious back in the day. However, now certain dimwits take it seriously. There's something important about human intelligence reflected in this, a kind of reverse relationship, a movement toward the pits after having been at the heights, a punk reaction to hearts and flowers, the horror after the party, the surprise when the bungee chord breaks.

Is it any wonder that the ancient literature has to do about The Fall? Well, there were a couple of them. Angels fell, then humanity fell, and so it's been going on since. A see-saw of rising and falling, over and over in a monotonous chiming in. Paternal figures really hate it.
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net2007
post Mar 16 2016, 11:09 PM
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Randy Newman, I remember him, he steriotyped practically everything, and his song Political Science was about blowing up the world with nukes, I didn't even have to listen to your links, I've heard a lot of his songs growing up. tongue.gif He didn't really get any hell for it from what I remember and If he did it wasn't enough to destroy him. I think that's one of the appeals of Donald Trump, say what you want about him, personally I think he's too arrogant and goes too far, but with all that said his appeal is that he doesn't care whether or not others think what he says is inapproriate, he just doesn't, and the reason that's working for him is because people are fed up with oversensitivity from the left, and how it's used as a political tactic to screw politicians, or media figures over who they don't like, and that's the truth of it. That's exactly why the left doesn't take the issue seriously, but by my research on liberals, and what's evident from you on here AM, sensitivity is not a top priority. It is what it is, it's working for the left for the time being but eventually it's going to catch up with them. Left or right, human beings can be ugly or they can be some of the nicest people you run across, I don't see a difference other than how people characterize things.

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post Mar 17 2016, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 16 2016, 07:09 PM) *
Randy Newman, I remember him, he steriotyped practically everything, and his song Political Science was about blowing up the world with nukes, I didn't even have to listen to your links, I've heard a lot of his songs growing up. tongue.gif He didn't really get any hell for it from what I remember and If he did it wasn't enough to destroy him. I think that's one of the appeals of Donald Trump, say what you want about him, personally I think he's too arrogant and goes too far, but with all that said his appeal is that he doesn't care whether or not others think what he says is inapproriate, he just doesn't, and the reason that's working for him is because people are fed up with oversensitivity from the left, and how it's used as a political tactic to screw politicians, or media figures over who they don't like, and that's the truth of it. That's exactly why the left doesn't take the issue seriously, but by my research on liberals, and what's evident from you on here AM, sensitivity is not a top priority. It is what it is, it's working for the left for the time being but eventually it's going to catch up with them. Left or right, human beings can be ugly or they can be some of the nicest people you run across, I don't see a difference other than how people characterize things.

Okay, you have no idea what Newman did with his music and lyrics. A little hint for you is that he was being sarcastic to the extreme.

I guess maybe you should try to understand what sarcastic humor is all about. Or don't, it makes no difference to me. However, here's another Newman song that might shed some light on the subject:

Rednecks

I haven't been a sensitive bleeding heart liberal for quite a while. I guess you're a compassionate conservative? Whatever, you really have no clue what Newman was about. Guess that's not surprising, since living through the era did bring a lot of understanding with it.

Which is why a lot of members from my generation demonstrated against the Iraq war before it was undertaken. Sensitive? Hell no, we knew better.

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post Mar 18 2016, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Mar 17 2016, 04:28 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 16 2016, 07:09 PM) *
Randy Newman, I remember him, he steriotyped practically everything, and his song Political Science was about blowing up the world with nukes, I didn't even have to listen to your links, I've heard a lot of his songs growing up. tongue.gif He didn't really get any hell for it from what I remember and If he did it wasn't enough to destroy him. I think that's one of the appeals of Donald Trump, say what you want about him, personally I think he's too arrogant and goes too far, but with all that said his appeal is that he doesn't care whether or not others think what he says is inapproriate, he just doesn't, and the reason that's working for him is because people are fed up with oversensitivity from the left, and how it's used as a political tactic to screw politicians, or media figures over who they don't like, and that's the truth of it. That's exactly why the left doesn't take the issue seriously, but by my research on liberals, and what's evident from you on here AM, sensitivity is not a top priority. It is what it is, it's working for the left for the time being but eventually it's going to catch up with them. Left or right, human beings can be ugly or they can be some of the nicest people you run across, I don't see a difference other than how people characterize things.

Okay, you have no idea what Newman did with his music and lyrics. A little hint for you is that he was being sarcastic to the extreme.

I guess maybe you should try to understand what sarcastic humor is all about. Or don't, it makes no difference to me. However, here's another Newman song that might shed some light on the subject:

Rednecks

I haven't been a sensitive bleeding heart liberal for quite a while. I guess you're a compassionate conservative? Whatever, you really have no clue what Newman was about. Guess that's not surprising, since living through the era did bring a lot of understanding with it.

Which is why a lot of members from my generation demonstrated against the Iraq war before it was undertaken. Sensitive? Hell no, we knew better.


Your going to explain to me what sarcasm is? I understand his lyrics and I know that song as well "Rednecks, we don't know our ___ from a hole in the ground", your not introducing me to anything new. I was lucky enough to have parents who introduced me to a lot, my dad introduced me to Newman when I was very young, and not all of it was comedy. Most powerful song for me growing up was Louisiana, I lived in New Orleans untill the age of 18, the song meant a great deal to me because we had floods and hurricanes destroy our lives. For example, my mom grew up on the New Orleans levee system, when I say on it I mean it was actually visible from the projects. When Hurricane Betsy hit the levee breached, my mom and grandmother had to run to the top floor of the complex and they lost everything. It was nick named Billion Dollar Betsy, it was the first Hurricane to cause more than a billion dollars in damage. Last experience I had personally was with Katrina, a coulple of family members and I spent the better part of a day chainsawing a tree off of my grandmothers roof so she could get her belongings.

Your in your 60's but age is not a measure for intellegence and it doesn't always mean more experience, it can for some but it's not a universal rule or maybe your misinterpreting me completely, I have no idea at this point but you don't know much about me. I don't say this with the intention of having you feeling sorry for me but I've experienced more hardship and have seen crazier things than most, King Of Pain by the Police is one of my favorites for that reason, not to mention nearly everything Pink Floyd related.

Going back to the song Political Science, Id agree he doesn't believe that nuking other countries (because America is an awesome one) is a good idea, although it is awesome. With Short People the same thing, I took it as comedy because I didn't buy that he believed "short people got no reason to live", based on the descriptions he gave of them being so ridiculous and innacurate. What I'm considering is that many people wont care whether or not those types of things are comedy, people react before they think. I don't think that's healthy, it's a problem, and that's one of the reasons for this thread. When I said "he steriotyped practically everything" it's accurate for the most part, but I didn't point it out and phrase it that way because I'm offended by him, I did so because it's relevant to the topic of the forum.

I am compassionate, but not when someone dives into making assumptions so keep that in mind. With that said, intellectual snobbery is not my thing, if that's part of your problem then okay. I try not to do that because even if I do feel someone knows less than I do, I believe there is always more to learn and sometimes we learn impressive things from those we consider less intelligent. I think one of the hardest things someone like that can learn is when the person they considered less intelligent or knowledgeable actually wasn't. My friend Anna for example, she's not smart but she blew me away with advice she gave after a difficult seperation from my ex. Some people who are knowledgeable start turning down oppertunities to learn and miss out on expanding that knowledge, you of all people should understand that since you say your here to improve you writing skills, and playing music is a hobby of yours. When it comes to that, if you don't use it you lose it. As for my knowledge or experience, I don't always have time to get into this kind of detail with my responses, I have to pick and choose. I also try not to be too serious with everthing I write, if you perceiving it as inexperience your wrong.

As far as you not being a "bleeding heart liberal" that's fine, but many liberals fancy themselves as being sensitive to others, and for some of them it's not accurate at all. Polticians even use that as a selling point of liberal politics, what they dont tell you (or don't know) is that being sensitive exclusively to those who think like they do is not a feat, it's not a feat to be sensitive to those who will help you maintain power either.

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post Mar 22 2016, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE(Julian @ Mar 11 2016, 12:33 PM) *
My old English teacher, the author and journalist Joe Treasure, has an interesting take on political correctness on his blog, here

This paragraph sum up how I feel about it very neatly (with emphasis my own)

QUOTE
Political correctness was always a redundant concept. Its territory was already covered by three other categories: accuracy, politeness, and euphemism. All the satirical jokes came under the third heading – calling short people ‘vertically challenged’, for example. As for accuracy and politeness, they’re timeless values that need no apology, though they probably demand more conscious effort in inclusive, multicultural times.


I'm afraid that you and Mr. Treasure, either innocently or intentionally, are waaaaaay behind the times on this.

Bolding mine:

"The very notion of diversity is now increasingly understood to refer to anything but differences of outlook, which we are urged — by the newly enlightened and militant — not to protect but to suppress and eliminate so that no delicate sensibility need be challenged or unsettled."
Link: http://chronicle.com/article/How-Safe-Spac...e-Ideas/235634/

ps:
"Former Monty Python John Cleese: Political correctness is 'condescending'".



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post Mar 22 2016, 06:15 AM
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Trump protesters are a new development in the PC war in my eyes, I'm seeing some harsh stuff on the news and on my online sources recently that point to things getting ugly, perhaps more than they have been. Take someone like Trump, I think most who have beef with him have it because he's not polltcally correct, and on top of that he's unapologetic about it. He hasn't gotten all of this media attention by saying things that make you want to snuggle up against him, but the problem here, as in many other situations, is that people only believe in free speech if it suits their cause.

In the last couple of weeks Trump protesters have begun to do things beyond what Trump is doing and the incidents are adding up fast. Two of the ones I found to be most alarming are these....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9vqcksf_SI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xu5lz4fS-Y

In the first one a highway is shut down by protesters to prevent people from getting to a Trump rally in Arizona, which backed up traffic for miles and I assume effected much more than Trump supporters.
In the second one a protester runs at Trump at a close distance, my guess is to hurt him (I posted that one in another forum)

There's been so much more than that in a short amount of time that Im thinking if it gets worse a lot of people can get hurt. Conservatives aren't doing this, and I don't recall them doing it with Obama either, at least not on this magnitude and many of them consider Hillary and Obama to be very dangerous for this country. If I'm wrong id like to see a video of someone running at Hillary to where she almost jumps out her shoes.

This has the potential to backfire on the left, and that's a shame for those who are on the left and not extreme. Similar events helped lead to Richard Nixon being elected in 68...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016...olumn/81728752/

I agree with those who don't think Trump doesn't have the mentality to be president but I don't see anything coming out of this that will stop him, if anything it's firing up his base.

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post Mar 22 2016, 10:58 AM
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net2007, I agree with your observations about Trump. I hear in my world various comments about how un-Presidential Trump is. People do not respond to his policy ideas much but like to comment about his personality. Trump puts out some policy ideas I like and others which I do not. I do not care much one way or the other about his personality. I want to know what his ideas are and if he is honest and dependable. So far, he seems more honest and dependable than all other remaining major party candidates except Sanders. Sanders is political incorrect, too. Policy wise, Sanders and Trump have some problems. Clinton and Cruz are not straight forward people. Kasich is undependable because of his ties to big bank/central bank fascism, the biggest rip off existing.

Going politically incorrect might be a prerequisite to being your person.

Kasich's main appeal is his political correctness. He wants to be as plain vanilla as possible. He wants to be "what-you-are-use-to" and "what-you-expect" as he can be.

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post Mar 22 2016, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Mar 22 2016, 12:00 AM) *
QUOTE(Julian @ Mar 11 2016, 12:33 PM) *
My old English teacher, the author and journalist Joe Treasure, has an interesting take on political correctness on his blog, here

This paragraph sum up how I feel about it very neatly (with emphasis my own)

QUOTE
Political correctness was always a redundant concept. Its territory was already covered by three other categories: accuracy, politeness, and euphemism. All the satirical jokes came under the third heading – calling short people ‘vertically challenged’, for example. As for accuracy and politeness, they’re timeless values that need no apology, though they probably demand more conscious effort in inclusive, multicultural times.


I'm afraid that you and Mr. Treasure, either innocently or intentionally, are waaaaaay behind the times on this.

Bolding mine:

"The very notion of diversity is now increasingly understood to refer to anything but differences of outlook, which we are urged — by the newly enlightened and militant — not to protect but to suppress and eliminate so that no delicate sensibility need be challenged or unsettled."
Link: http://chronicle.com/article/How-Safe-Spac...e-Ideas/235634/

ps:
"Former Monty Python John Cleese: Political correctness is 'condescending'".


I'm not sure he or I are that far behind the times; his central point, and that of the link you provided is that PC has gone from being a useful shorthand for a mixture of "accuracy, politeness, and euphemism" (so, by its very nature, redundant, as Joe Treasure put it - it was a new concept that described something that already existed, conceptually) to being a means to shut down debate.

On the left, as your links describe, anything that offends the sensibilities of anyone on the left, or their totem groups, is denied, "no platformed", etc. as your links describe, shutting down criticism.

On the right, as Joe describes, the glee with which any criticism of the policies or practices of the Right is shut down with words to the effect of "you can't silence ME with your political correctness" shows that the same thing is happening at both ends of the political spectrum - PC (or the denial of PC) is used as an excuse to put forward extreme opinions and deny any challenge to them.

That's how I read Joe's article and what I was getting at when I referenced it here.


QUOTE(net2007 @ Mar 22 2016, 06:15 AM) *
Trump protesters are a new development in the PC war in my eyes, I'm seeing some harsh stuff on the news and on my online sources recently that point to things getting ugly, perhaps more than they have been. Take someone like Trump, I think most who have beef with him have it because he's not polltcally correct, and on top of that he's unapologetic about it.


Something of an understatement; it seems to me he says things that are actively controversial at best and outrageous at worst because he knows it'll get him on the evening news. I still have very little idea what his policy platform will be, I'm not he does either, and given the way things work over there he doesn't really need to have one until such time as he's inaugurated.

QUOTE
He hasn't gotten all of this media attention by saying things that make you want to snuggle up against him, but the problem here, as in many other situations, is that people only believe in free speech if it suits their cause.


Amen. 'Twas ever thus.

QUOTE
In the last couple of weeks Trump protesters have begun to do things beyond what Trump is doing and the incidents are adding up fast. Two of the ones I found to be most alarming are these....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9vqcksf_SI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xu5lz4fS-Y

In the first one a highway is shut down by protesters to prevent people from getting to a Trump rally in Arizona, which backed up traffic for miles and I assume effected much more than Trump supporters.
In the second one a protester runs at Trump at a close distance, my guess is to hurt him (I posted that one in another forum)

There's been so much more than that in a short amount of time that Im thinking if it gets worse a lot of people can get hurt. Conservatives aren't doing this, and I don't recall them doing it with Obama either, at least not on this magnitude and many of them consider Hillary and Obama to be very dangerous for this country. If I'm wrong id like to see a video of someone running at Hillary to where she almost jumps out her shoes.

This has the potential to backfire on the left, and that's a shame for those who are on the left and not extreme. Similar events helped lead to Richard Nixon being elected in 68...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016...olumn/81728752/

I agree with those who don't think Trump doesn't have the mentality to be president but I don't see anything coming out of this that will stop him, if anything it's firing up his base.


I don't disagree, violent protest isn't really going to help anyone at this stage, but it's not as though Trump's supporters are all innocent of a little, er, jostling here and there. I think the net effect will be further polarisation; I don't see much evidence that Trump (or anyone else) is trying very hard to mobilise the undecided or uncommitted. Yet. I don't think he is a complete fool*, though, so this may be a strategic thing and he'll be more conciliatory and broad-based once the Presidential race itself starts.

*Actually, I can't believe that such large numbers of Americans would support a complete fool, but that's not the same thing at all.
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post Mar 22 2016, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Mar 22 2016, 05:58 AM) *
net2007, I agree with your observations about Trump. I hear in my world various comments about how un-Presidential Trump is. People do not respond to his policy ideas much but like to comment about his personality. Trump puts out some policy ideas I like and others which I do not. I do not care much one way or the other about his personality. I want to know what his ideas are and if he is honest and dependable. So far, he seems more honest and dependable than all other remaining major party candidates except Sanders. Sanders is political incorrect, too. Policy wise, Sanders and Trump have some problems. Clinton and Cruz are not straight forward people. Kasich is undependable because of his ties to big bank/central bank fascism, the biggest rip off existing.

Going politically incorrect might be a prerequisite to being your person.

Kasich's main appeal is his political correctness. He wants to be as plain vanilla as possible. He wants to be "what-you-are-use-to" and "what-you-expect" as he can be.


I'm the same on the policy issue with Trump, I agree with some of it, but disagree with other things. He's hitting on certain ideas that I believe are important, but the question for me is whether or not he'll pull off some of the things he says, to the degree he's wanting to take things. For example, the idea he has on banning all Muslims for a certain amount of time, it's way beyond what Id consider a good way to solve a problem with terrorist entering the U.S. With that said, I do believe it's a problem more than some let on. You have a percentage of Muslim extremist who are going to be a concern, and people should take them seriously, but it's nowhere near a majority IMO. What he's suggesting would probably cause massive problems if he could pull it off, which I doubt. Vetting people is more along the lines of what id consider smart, I suppose with Trump I understand the concerns he has, but not the ideas he has on addressing them in many cases.

Similar concerns to you it sounds like. I still doubt he'll get elected but I'm learning things that are having me think it's more likely than I once thought. Hillary is a weak candidate, if he's up against her she wont be able to be sneaky. I'm thinking he's going to get her in a lot of (I got ya moments) where she's on the spot and on the defense. He improvises in the moment very fast, it'll just take one little lie or mistep she takes which will have him all over it. She's playing him off like it's a joke right now, but behind the scenes I bet she's worried about facing him, he's too much of a wild card. They're polar opposites when you think about it, she's PC to the point of coming off as a fake, he's politically incorrect to a degree that's unlike anything I've seen in an election.

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post Mar 22 2016, 08:14 PM
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net2007, I think we are similar in our assessment of Donald Trump. He may have a stupid policy with his wall and Muslim ban but then he has some sense with not wanting to get involved with every dispute in the middle east. Trump has the best foreign policy of all remaining major (control) parties. Trump's idea of tariffs is Trump as his worst. Does he really not know tariffs hurts both sides?

I am not sure why Trump wants a war with Mexico.

Some of this could be populism sales job. I rather have a candidate who means what he says so take Trump at his word. Definitely a wobbly candidate who outshines the rest of the field. Pretty sad.

I do like politically incorrect, especially when the ideas are correct. Not so much when the ideas are poor.

Bottomline: gotta vote on issues and policy. PC or not PC is just window dressing.
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post Mar 22 2016, 08:18 PM
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Julian

QUOTE
I don't disagree, violent protest isn't really going to help anyone at this stage, but it's not as though Trump's supporters are all innocent of a little, er, jostling here and there. I think the net effect will be further polarisation; I don't see much evidence that Trump (or anyone else) is trying very hard to mobilise the undecided or uncommitted. Yet. I don't think he is a complete fool*, though, so this may be a strategic thing and he'll be more conciliatory and broad-based once the Presidential race itself starts.

*Actually, I can't believe that such large numbers of Americans would support a complete fool, but that's not the same thing at all.


I was thinking the same thing about Trump, that it's a strategy. There's as least some evidence to back that, like his speech at AIPAC

AIPAC Speech

He still says things that are quintessentially Trump "Believe me" tongue.gif But he didn't fly off the handle. If that's what he's doing he's going to have to stay disciplined, he get's emotional and says things in the moment, so we'll see.

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post Mar 24 2016, 03:29 AM
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Also your right about not all supporters at Trump rallies being innocent. That guy who got sucker punced in the face, that wasn't cool. He did flip everyone off on their turf, but the punch was stepping it up in a way that wasn't necessary. Im hoping things cool down a bit, but it'll be after the election is over more than likely.

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