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> Shooting down of MH17, What should U.S. response be?
Hobbes
post Jul 17 2014, 11:16 PM
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Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 18 2014, 12:06 AM
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Gray Seal
post Jul 23 2014, 03:52 PM
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Was there a trial when the United States shot down the commercial airplane over the Persian Gulf? Is there another example you are thinking of?
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 23 2014, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 23 2014, 11:52 AM) *
Was there a trial when the United States shot down the commercial airplane over the Persian Gulf? Is there another example you are thinking of?


Yes. There was a settlement for that one. It wasn't the only one. A big one that comes to mind was Lockerbie.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jul 23 2014, 03:59 PM
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Aquilla
post Jul 23 2014, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 23 2014, 10:11 AM) *
The United States has lots of information is could release to the public about the incident. Instead it is playing a blame game for political reasons. I do not appreciate nor agree with the politics. I am neither blind nor naive about shenanigans with the truth our administration is capable of in recent history whether it be Bush or a Obama.



The US is not going to release all of the information they have on this, nor should they. The last thing they want to do is tell the gangster Putin how good our intel gathering is.

Aquilla
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Gray Seal
post Jul 23 2014, 07:52 PM
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The cloak and dagger game angle is tiresome. It is a weak excuse to keep voters in the dark. It is a harmful means to propagandize a willing segment who are optimistic about government actions in spite of a trickle of information which points otherwise. I do not think the rest of the world is fooled like many Americans seem to be. When it is your team you want to believe in them.
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Aquilla
post Jul 24 2014, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 23 2014, 02:52 PM) *
The cloak and dagger game angle is tiresome. It is a weak excuse to keep voters in the dark. It is a harmful means to propagandize a willing segment who are optimistic about government actions in spite of a trickle of information which points otherwise. I do not think the rest of the world is fooled like many Americans seem to be. When it is your team you want to believe in them.



We aren't talking about a James Bond novel or Spy vs. Spy in MAD magazine, it's not a game. In the real world means and methods can mean the difference between life and death, and between freedom and tyranny. Some things are best left secret for all concerned. I believe this situation falls into that category.

The US has already disclosed to the news media that they monitored the launch of the SAM-11, plotted it's trajectory, and determined the intercept point. They determined the launch point to be in the "rebel" held region of Ukraine, not far from the Russian border. The SAM system was Russian made. To suggest that anyone other than Russian-backed separatists, or covert Russian military is responsible flies in the face of any form of logical thought.

Nobody from the outside could even get into the crash site area for days, so how in the hell could the Ukraine army get in there to fire the missile? Beyond rational belief. Distrusting the government is one thing, but man, you need to pick your battles. Neither you nor Lew Rockwell is going to win on this one. rolleyes.gif


Aquilla
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Gray Seal
post Jul 24 2014, 01:59 PM
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The US monitored the launch of the SAM-11? Where did you find this information? All I could find was that US conclusions were based upon social media.
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Aquilla
post Jul 24 2014, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 24 2014, 08:59 AM) *
The US monitored the launch of the SAM-11? Where did you find this information? All I could find was that US conclusions were based upon social media.



I saw it on the news, specifically FOX news, but even CNN had it. They didn't say how the US was able to monitor the incident, just that we did. Remember we have some pretty sophisticated ships in the area and some very sophisticated satellites overhead. I don't know what they can do now, but back in the day when I worked in the industry it was pretty impressive. And that was 20 years ago.


Edited to add...

This may be what you're referencing

And that goes back to sources and methods. Offering "social media" as a source is a safe thing to do The reports I saw on television didn't come from social media, they were pretty specific on where and when the launch occurred. Identifying the missile as an SA-11 is a no-brainer, they've been around for a very long time and we know what they look like.

Aquilla

This post has been edited by Aquilla: Jul 24 2014, 04:45 PM
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Hobbes
post Jul 24 2014, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 24 2014, 08:59 AM) *
The US monitored the launch of the SAM-11? Where did you find this information? All I could find was that US conclusions were based upon social media.


Hopefully you aren't getting that info from Russian sources, Gray Seal, because that is the story that Russia has been putting forth. The information has been pretty widespread on U.S. News channels. It shows the launch position and trajectory of the missile, from satellite and radar sources. It has also been put out, separately, by various European countries, based on their own data.

There was a Russia Today anchor on a show with CNN (Cuomo was the interviewer), who went on and on about Russia releasing all their info on this, which I haven't seen at all. I've heard their conclusions, but not seen any of the data. And none of it is definitive. For example, they say they have a Ukrainian SU25 on radar a few kilometers behind MH17. That might be true, but doesn't say anything about them seeing a missile launched from that plane towards MH17. The Russian info seems intended to obfuscate, whereas data from the West seems to clarify.

FWIW...the social media evidence is real evidence. Their was a tweet about shooting down a tanker right after MH17 was hit, and then it was deleted when it was discovered what it was that was shot down. Both of those are valid data points, even coming from social media. The Ukrainian intercepted phone calls have also been corroborated by the U.S., at least so far as apparently the voices on those calls match voice patterns we have for the people Ukraine says were on each end of the calls.
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Gray Seal
post Jul 24 2014, 05:18 PM
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I can not find any information from FoxNews or CNN on their websites about the US having monitored the launching of the missile which took down MH17. There has been a media frenzy with lots of speculation. Don't get caught up in it and think there are facts when there are not. Taking speculation as facts leads to poor conclusions.

I had a link to the Russian data in this thread earlier.

Both of you seem to be sucked in by wanting to believe. You need to be as skeptical about US news and government sources as you are about Russian.
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Aquilla
post Jul 24 2014, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 24 2014, 12:18 PM) *
I can not find any information from FoxNews or CNN on their websites about the US having monitored the launching of the missile which took down MH17. There has been a media frenzy with lots of speculation. Don't get caught up in it and think there are facts when there are not. Taking speculation as facts leads to poor conclusions.

I had a link to the Russian data in this thread earlier.

Both of you seem to be sucked in by wanting to believe. You need to be as skeptical about US news and government sources as you are about Russian.



I honestly don't know where you are going with this, Gray Seal. If you are saying the US News media, sorry state as it is in, is as bad as the State controlled Russian/Soviet media, you are wrong. Social media plays a part in this story to be sure, but social media didn't pinpoint the launch point and trajectory of that missile. That was the animation I saw on both CNN and FOX, and it was identical. That had to come from military/intel sources. The fact that they didn't tell you exactly how that information was obtained doesn't make it untrue. There are reasons for that.

Now, if you really want to know how, go to school for 5 years like I did and get 2 engineering degrees, then go to work for 20 years in the defense industry, keep your nose clean, get a bunch of security clearances and maybe then they'll tell you how they did it. thumbsup.gif

Aquilla

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 24 2014, 06:30 PM
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For context, here is a link that contains a list of all the flights shot down by Russian-backed separatists in the last three months (not including this one).
There are ten of them.

Edited to add: I'm a bit surprised that the Russian General would question why a plane would gain altitude and speed up when traversing the area after reading this. Yes, wow...sure is suspicious.

Edited again to add: Tried to watch the video a second time and maybe he didn't say that. The video is incredibly difficult to sit through. From the sound of things there was a lot of traffic in the area, and aircraft were at an altitude that had been considered safe until about three days before, when the anti-aircraft capabilities of the separatists seemed to have improved and they took out a plane at a higher altitude. I've also read that the pilot was attempting to avoid a storm and diverted a bit from the flight plan, which isn't unusual.

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Hobbes
post Jul 24 2014, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 24 2014, 12:18 PM) *
Both of you seem to be sucked in by wanting to believe. You need to be as skeptical about US news and government sources as you are about Russian.


Why? Would reason does the U.S. have to lie in this situation, especially since its lies would be discovered? Russia, on the other hand, uses its media to obfuscate all the time--that is its purpose in their scheme. Further, you have one side putting forward very plausible scenarios, and the other side talking about how this was a plane full of corpses, which the pilots bailed out of after take off, shot down just to make Russia look bad. If you truly think that is just as plausible as what you are hearing from the West, then you need to look harder at the situation. That doesn't mean blindly accepting what you hear from the West, but there is big difference between that, and putting what the two side are saying on equal footing, when such is so obviously not the case. Not only do the Russian 'theories' not make much sense, but notice that there are a bunch of them---if they were being objective at all, those would be narrowing down, not expanding out.

So, again, you actually do have to pick a side to believe in this. You have logic, reason, and data on one side, with no real reason to lie, and strange, implausible theories on the other side, with lots of reasons to lie. Paying more attention to the former isn't being blind, it is simply paying attention to the situation. Giving Russia much credence, though, based on what they've put out, is being blind.

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Ted
post Jul 26 2014, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Jul 24 2014, 03:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 24 2014, 12:18 PM) *
Both of you seem to be sucked in by wanting to believe. You need to be as skeptical about US news and government sources as you are about Russian.


Why? Would reason does the U.S. have to lie in this situation, especially since its lies would be discovered? Russia, on the other hand, uses its media to obfuscate all the time--that is its purpose in their scheme. Further, you have one side putting forward very plausible scenarios, and the other side talking about how this was a plane full of corpses, which the pilots bailed out of after take off, shot down just to make Russia look bad. If you truly think that is just as plausible as what you are hearing from the West, then you need to look harder at the situation. That doesn't mean blindly accepting what you hear from the West, but there is big difference between that, and putting what the two side are saying on equal footing, when such is so obviously not the case. Not only do the Russian 'theories' not make much sense, but notice that there are a bunch of them---if they were being objective at all, those would be narrowing down, not expanding out.

So, again, you actually do have to pick a side to believe in this. You have logic, reason, and data on one side, with no real reason to lie, and strange, implausible theories on the other side, with lots of reasons to lie. Paying more attention to the former isn't being blind, it is simply paying attention to the situation. Giving Russia much credence, though, based on what they've put out, is being blind.

ya its laughable bull crap at best. I heard an expert on CNN that could tell what type of Russian SAM was used by the holes in the plane wreckage... - and now the Russians are moving in heavy equipment and even firing rockets and artillery from Russia into Ukraine

guess Obama and the EU really scared them with those sanctions on a few people .....LOL

so now we will see if the NATO countries and the EU in general wake up because if they expect us to help they are delusional. I see no reason for Putin to stop after he owns eastern Ukraine....
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Gray Seal
post Jul 26 2014, 05:25 PM
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We have Russia, Ukraine, and the United States putting out misleading if not false information. We have mass media at the bidding of our rulers. The best argument is that Russia is the worst? By what standard? When you have three crumb bums why in the world would you enthusiastically think you have to go with one of them?

Why not admit you choose sides and accept "facts" which fit your own desired preference? Choosing sides is not going to lead to good outcomes. If there is a principle that good neighbors do not stick their nose in other's business then stick to that. Do not pick and choose when to apply such principle. An arbitrarily applied principle means there is no principle, you are simply fooling yourself.

The United States as well as Russia have inappropriately been involved with Ukraine. The unrest in Ukraine is a dispute between different regions within Ukraine. Some regions which to dominate other regions. This brings resentment and conflict. If you believe in regional democracy you would not be supporting outside influence supporting such domination. Both the United States and Russia are way too involved.

The solution to a wrong is not another wrong. If Russia involvement in Ukraine was the first wrong the fix is not the United States becoming involved. Frankly, who can tell who was the first to make the wrong. First, second...it does not matter. This a regional problem which will have to be decided by the regions involved.

Knowing who shot down the MH17 because of choosing sides is not decisive nor conclusive. You can have your best guess but do not claim clairvoyance based upon choosing sides. Certainly, the MH17 incident is no reason to greenlight greater involvement in Ukraine.
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Hobbes
post Jul 26 2014, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 26 2014, 12:25 PM) *
We have Russia, Ukraine, and the United States putting out misleading if not false information.


What misleading or false information has the U.S. put out? Or even Ukraine? Ukraine certainly has reason to do so, but so far, what they have been saying seems to have been corroborated, and certainly makes sense. But you go on believing in the plane full of corpses flying on autopilot thing. It does nothing to me, but certainly detracts from your credibility on the topic.

QUOTE
We have mass media at the bidding of our rulers.


We don't...Russia does. Our media is biased, but not so much by that.

QUOTE
The best argument is that Russia is the worst? By what standard?


By looking at what they put out. Again, unless you think a plane full of corpses, flying on autopilot after the pilots jumped out (how what that even happen) is just as plausible as what the West is saying, all of which seems reasonable and based on actual evidence....

QUOTE
When you have three crumb bums why in the world would you enthusiastically think you have to go with one of them?


Enthusiastically? No. Realistically? Yes. If something comes out that the West is saying about this that there is evidence it isn't true, then I'll look at that. So far, I haven't seen anything. What Russia is putting out isn't always false, but it's clearly trying to throw out other theories, none of which either match up or make much sense. But this is how they always handle these things. Domestically, it works. Imagine if the 9-11 conspiracy theorists here controlled the media, and that that group had a vested interest in creating and pushing out false information.

QUOTE
Why not admit you choose sides and accept "facts" which fit your own desired preference?


Because it isn't true. If you have something to contradict any 'facts' I have brought up, please bring them forth. Until then, you are just using the ostrich approach, which might feel good for a while but never leads to anything positive, either for the ostrich or others, except for the lion.

QUOTE
Choosing sides is not going to lead to good outcomes.


Neither is buying into the propoganda put out by one side.

QUOTE
If there is a principle that good neighbors do not stick their nose in other's business then stick to that. Do not pick and choose when to apply such principle. An arbitrarily applied principle means there is no principle, you are simply fooling yourself.


What's that got to do with buying into the crap Russia is putting out?

QUOTE
The United States as well as Russia have inappropriately been involved with Ukraine.


How so?

QUOTE
The unrest in Ukraine is a dispute between different regions within Ukraine.


If you really believe that, you aren't paying any attention.

QUOTE
Some regions which to dominate other regions. This brings resentment and conflict. If you believe in regional democracy you would not be supporting outside influence supporting such domination. Both the United States and Russia are way too involved.


How is the U.S. way too involved? If anything, we have been extremely hands off. Plus, you are ignoring the simple fact that if another power exerts influence in an area, doing nothing simply in the name of principle is just another name for losing the fight, while also encouraging the other side to exert more influence elsewhere. You either are way too idealistic about foreign policy, or way too naive about how things really work.

QUOTE
The solution to a wrong is not another wrong. If Russia involvement in Ukraine was the first wrong the fix is not the United States becoming involved.


Ok...what is the fix then?

QUOTE
Frankly, who can tell who was the first to make the wrong.


Just about anyone paying attention.

QUOTE
First, second...it does not matter. This a regional problem which will have to be decided by the regions involved.


And when that conflict extends beyond that region, with the other side having increased power and leverage because of failure to act sooner....what then?

QUOTE
Knowing who shot down the MH17 because of choosing sides is not decisive nor conclusive.


No, but knowing who shot down MH17 based on the evidence at hand is. ALL of the evidence points to it being separtists, or perhaps Russians themselves. NONE of the evidence indicates anything else.

QUOTE
You can have your best guess but do not claim clairvoyance based upon choosing sides.


You continued assertion, without any evidence, that I am doing this by choosing sides is becoming tiresome. I guess you are just a Russian plan, sent here to create further obfuscation. I have just as much, more actually, evidence of that as you do. So, I'll just to with that every time you bring this up. Tell Putin hi for me next time you see him.

QUOTE
Certainly, the MH17 incident is no reason to greenlight greater involvement in Ukraine.


Figuring out what to do about it is completely separate from looking at what actually happened. And your 'certainly' carries no weight, as it is based on nothing more than the training you received in Russia on creating false propoganda to further Russia's aims (see, isn't this fun!).

QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 26 2014, 12:25 PM) *
We have Russia, Ukraine, and the United States putting out misleading if not false information.


What misleading or false information has the U.S. put out? Or even Ukraine?

QUOTE
We have mass media at the bidding of our rulers.


We don't...Russia does. Our media is biased, but not so much by that.

QUOTE
The best argument is that Russia is the worst? By what standard?


By looking at what they put out. Again, unless you think a plane full of corpses, flying on autopilot after the pilots jumped out (how what that even happen) is just as plausible as what the West is saying, all of which seems reasonable and based on actual evidence....

QUOTE
When you have three crumb bums why in the world would you enthusiastically think you have to go with one of them?


Enthusiastically? No. Realistically? Yes. If something comes out that the West is saying about this that there is evidence it isn't true, then I'll look at that. So far, I haven't seen anything. What Russia is putting out isn't always false, but it's clearly trying to throw out other theories, none of which either match up or make much sense. But this is how they always handle these things. Domestically, it works. Imagine if the 9-11 conspiracy theorists here controlled the media, and that that group had a vested interest in creating and pushing out false information.

QUOTE
Why not admit you choose sides and accept "facts" which fit your own desired preference?


Because it isn't true. Why don't you just admit that you believe the propoganda and farsical notions being put out by Russia?

QUOTE
Choosing sides is not going to lead to good outcomes.


Neither is buying into the propoganda put out by one side, particularly when that side is the transgressor.

QUOTE
If there is a principle that good neighbors do not stick their nose in other's business then stick to that. Do not pick and choose when to apply such principle. An arbitrarily applied principle means there is no principle, you are simply fooling yourself.


What's that got to do with buying into the crap Russia is putting out? And exactly which principle are you invoking when paying attention to clearly false and misleading propoganda, while ignoring anything that comes out which is both corroborated and makes sense?

QUOTE
The United States as well as Russia have inappropriately been involved with Ukraine.


How so? What has the United States done that you feel is inappropriate?

QUOTE
The unrest in Ukraine is a dispute between different regions within Ukraine.


If you really believe that, you aren't paying any attention at all.

QUOTE
Some regions which to dominate other regions. This brings resentment and conflict. If you believe in regional democracy you would not be supporting outside influence supporting such domination. Both the United States and Russia are way too involved.


How is the U.S. way too involved? If anything, we have been extremely hands off.

Plus, you are ignoring the simple fact that if another power exerts influence in an area, doing nothing simply in the name of principle is just another name for losing the fight, while also encouraging the other side to exert more influence elsewhere. You either are way too idealistic about foreign policy, or way too naive about how things really work. The Sudetenland usurping by Hitler was viewed as just a regional issue, too...look how well your policy of staying out of it worked out then. History is replete with similar examples

QUOTE
The solution to a wrong is not another wrong. If Russia involvement in Ukraine was the first wrong the fix is not the United States becoming involved.


Ok...what is the fix then? Because Russia is going to keep on doing this until they are stopped. What is your grand plan for stopping them, that also then includes our complete uninvolvement? Or do we just let them take over the rest of the world, and only get involved if they invade us, never mind all the disastrous consequences that would ensue prior to that?

QUOTE
Frankly, who can tell who was the first to make the wrong.


Just about anyone paying attention.

QUOTE
First, second...it does not matter. This a regional problem which will have to be decided by the regions involved.


No it isn't (see above re: paying attention). Let's say we invaded Mexico. Is that just a regional problem, too? What if we then continued down into Central and South America? At what point, in your perspective, does it stop being just a regional problem, I wonder?

And when that conflict extends beyond that region, with the other side having increased power and leverage because of failure to act sooner....what then? And, no, it isn't a regional problem. It affects everyone...and those effects will just increase over time, as Russia uses its power elsewhere.

QUOTE
Knowing who shot down the MH17 because of choosing sides is not decisive nor conclusive.


No, but knowing who shot down MH17 based on the evidence at hand is. ALL of the evidence points to it being separtists, or perhaps Russians themselves. NONE of the evidence indicates anything else. Failing to recognize the reality of the situation certainly isn't conducive to making any sound decisions or conclusions, either.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 26 2014, 06:24 PM
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Gray Seal
post Jul 27 2014, 02:36 PM
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U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and her comments were revealed in February. The United States has been intruding into Ukraine politics.

What facts are you using? All they seem to consist of is: a commercial jet came down in Eastern Ukraine and I think Putin is a crumbbum. Have you looked at the Russian data? The United States has provided nothing (gotta maintain secrecy and whatever we suggest is the truth because we are not Putin).

Both parties have BUKs. Maybe the rebels stole one of the BUKs which seems odd as some media stories claim the Ukraine BUKs were not in the area.

One party had a fighter jet in the immediate area of the disaster. Why? Training? Attempts to draw missile fire into commercial air traffic which are directed by the Ukraine government? Using commercial air traffic as cover?

We do not know what took down MH17.

False stories about Russia confiscating the black box.

I do not know what happened from the available facts. But then again, I require more than the two facts it seems others use to make a conclusion.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 27 2014, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 27 2014, 10:36 AM) *
One party had a fighter jet in the immediate area of the disaster. Why? Training? Attempts to draw missile fire into commercial air traffic which are directed by the Ukraine government? Using commercial air traffic as cover?


Though this is unsubstantiated, that would actually add weight to the idea that the passenger jet was hit by accident. Military planes (in the US at least) travel just as civilian planes do, there is no special military air path to travel, though there are military training areas where the jets then "do their own thing" but otherwise, they are like all other civilian air travel. If they could not do this, they would not be able to get to and from training areas, or deploy anywhere.

The Russian controlled separatist area had all initial access to the black boxes and debris…not the Ukrainian government. On the (astronomically unlikely) event that the Ukrainian government staged the shoot down of a passenger plane for PR purposes one would have to wonder at their motivation for doing so. First, they would be taking an incredible risk in an area with serious civilian air traffic where the ruse might be observed. There should be some really compelling objective. PR purposes to place pressure on Russia doesn’t seem enough of a motivation for all of the EU and the US to cover and lie for the Ukrainian government. That is a conspiracy theory to usurp most other conspiracy theories in implausibility.

How often does Putin fold under stern International disapproval? Answer: I can't think of any time, ever. If I were in his position, what would I do? Answer: cover my backside, and quickly. No surprise the Russians are filling the internetz with the “true story" here. This is the person who poisoned an ex KGB agent who ratted out to the UK, while he was under serious MI5 and MI6 protection.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jul 27 2014, 02:56 PM
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Gray Seal
post Jul 27 2014, 03:04 PM
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Putin is a crumbbum. No need to convince me as I agree. The argument that the Ukraine government is a bunch of swell guys who would not do stunts similar to Putin has not been proven. Ukraine actions point in the opposite direct of swell guys to me. Would a political power hanging by a thread attempt to get more foreign aid, at least give the United States administration cover to further its already too much involvement, by such a massacre? I hope not but unfortunately such behavior is not unprecedented. False flags is not a idea but something which has happened over and over.

The Ukraine government was in charge of where the commercial traffic was and I presume the Ukraine government is in charge of its jets. Why would a Ukraine jet be tailing a commercial jet? Was it tailing a commercial jet? Oh yeah, can not give out such information as the United States has to secretive. All you need to know is that Putin is on the other side.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 27 2014, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 27 2014, 11:04 AM) *
The Ukraine government was in charge of where the commercial traffic was and I presume the Ukraine government is in charge of its jets. Why would a Ukraine jet be tailing a commercial jet? Was it tailing a commercial jet?


I doubt that it was tailing a commercial jet. More than likely, if a military jet was in the area, it was there because it's a separatist controlled area. They probably fly in that area quite often, much like we had F15s flying all over areas of the US for many months after 911.

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Hobbes
post Jul 28 2014, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Jul 27 2014, 09:36 AM) *
U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and her comments were revealed in February. The United States has been intruding into Ukraine politics.


I don't doubt this...but you can't even bother to share a link, or any details? Therefore, no information about what was inappropriate about our involvement. Most countries are 'involved' with most other countries...nothing inappropriate about it. And you equate what we were doing with what Russia is doing, which seems to include committing acts of war (shelling Ukrainian territory from within Russia)? Further, have you considered that what Russia is doing would be the reason why we would be involved there?

QUOTE
What facts are you using? All they seem to consist of is: a commercial jet came down in Eastern Ukraine and I think Putin is a crumbbum. Have you looked at the Russian data? The United States has provided nothing (gotta maintain secrecy and whatever we suggest is the truth because we are not Putin).


Yes, they have. They provided the flight path of the missile. There have been photos on the news here of damage to the plane consistent with a missile attack. We have intercepted phone calls between Russian operatives and the separatists discussing the downing of the plane. We have the separatists tweeting about shooting it down immediately after it happened. Pretty much everyone on earth accepts that this plane was shot down by a missile fired by separatists (including Russia--they are just throwing out these other conspiracy theories to muddy the waters)...but you. Being skeptical is fine....letting that skepticism to allow you to fall victim to the propoganda Russia is putting out is just playing into their hands. You call out the U.S. for not putting out data (when they have)...what data has Russia really put out? They've said they have various pieces of data, but what data have they actually put out? None that I am aware of. Yet you seem open to believing them, while you just discount anything the U.S. has been saying, ignoring that what the U.S. has been saying makes sense, that we don't really have any reason to lie, that what Russia has been saying doesn't have much behind it, doesn't make sense, and they have every reason to lie. You can't equate those two situations into being equal, yet you seem to be doing so.

QUOTE
Both parties have BUKs. Maybe the rebels stole one of the BUKs which seems odd as some media stories claim the Ukraine BUKs were not in the area.


That was one of the original theories. The story was that they had stolen it a period of time ago (it was abandoned), which might explain why the others aren't in the area any more. Still haven't seen anyone put forward any reason as to why they would be, when they have nothing to shoot at. Nor does it detract from the real question, which is 'who fired it?' Nor does it answer the other question---who taught them how to fire it?

QUOTE
One party had a fighter jet in the immediate area of the disaster. Why?


Combat operations. Which is why having this area open to commercial traffic was not a very sound decision.

There doesn't appear to be any evidence that the crew firing the missile was shooting at SU 25s....they thought they shot down a tanker. So, the SU 25 being there isn't really relevant. If they had been shooting at it, that would be a very valid piece of information---but it seems that that information came out after the incident, not during it (ie, they knew they were shooting at a big plane carrying lots of people, and they hit just what they shot at).

QUOTE
We do not know what took down MH17.
No, but all the evidence points in one direction....whereas you seem to be looking every where else.

QUOTE
False stories about Russia confiscating the black box.


How do we know they were false? They got the black boxes, they disappeared for a couple days, and then they were handed over. They seem to have been unaltered...but I didn't expect there to be much on the black boxes that would tell what happened, anyway. It's not as if commercial airliners have sophisticated threat analysis systems on board. Probably the best they'll get from them is what systems failed first, if even that. That was all we got from the Space Shuttle Challenger, with far more sophisticated flight information systems sending real time data on just about everything. The only way we were able to deduce what happened based on that data is that we already knew there had been some tile damage in those areas, from other sources (ie, the video tapes of the launch). So, I don't think the black box is going to reveal much, which is probably what the Russians deduced also.

QUOTE
I do not know what happened from the available facts. But then again, I require more than the two facts it seems others use to make a conclusion.


There are more than just 2 facts, but withholding reaching a conclusion is fine, I have no issue with that. Disregarding the facts, and giving excess attention to 'facts' put out by the side with the most to lose, and weighing those just as heavily, if not moreso, than much more reasonable facts put out by the other side is what seems out of place.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 28 2014, 03:26 PM
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