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> Screw those who are essential and work?, The Trump shut-down.
Supposn
post Jan 10 2019, 08:48 PM
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Screw those who are essential and work?? The Trump shut-down.

If the link provided at the end of this post is correct:
Those furloughed federal employees considered as not essential and are not currently working for the federal government, can tide themselves over by gainfully working full-time if they can find such opportunities. They can also work part-time and/or qualify for unemployment benefits.

Those federal employees considered essential and required to continue working without pay, are entitled to work part-time if they can find work that doesn't conflict with their federal work schedule, but they are not entitled to receive unemployment benefits.

In most if not all cases when federal employees MAY receive back-pay, the state will legally recover any unemployment benefits they paid out for the back-paid period.

In summary, there's no financial remedy for federal employees that actually do work for our federal government during Trump's shut-down.
Does this seem logical to anyone except President Donald Trump?

Refer to:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/do...hp_minor_pos19

Many furloughed federal employees can receive unemployment while on temporary leave of absence, but not all. Federal employees who are expected to report to work, even without pay, do not qualify for unemployment benefits. Federal workers should be wary. In most states, as well as D.C., if these workers collect unemployment benefits and then receive retroactive pay, they’ll be required to repay the government.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Hobbes
post Jan 11 2019, 07:30 PM
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What question did you want to have debated here?
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net2007
post Jan 15 2019, 02:18 AM
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I may have more information if you expand with some questions but if it were me, I would have classified this shutdown as the Trump/Schumer/Pelosi shut-down, rather than just "The Trump Shut-Down". To explain, there are two reasons for the partial government shut-down, Trump and many Republicans being unwilling to support a spending bill that doesn't have wall funding in it, and the Democrats unwillingness to support a spending bill that does have wall funding. Set aside who has the better position on whether or not we should build a fence/wall, neither side can agree on what would be an important policy decision, therefore we have a shutdown.

Trump makes the mistake of trying to own this shut-down. If he wants a wall it would have helped a lot more to simply make sure wall funding remained in the Republicans spending bill and then just let the Democrats refuse to support such a bill. Instead, he adds rhethoric into the mix, I think because he wants to portray himself as brave. Shutdowns aren't popular, during the last one polling dropped for the Democrats because they voted in far lower numbers to fund the government so Trump should have learned from that. This is one of many times where his own rhethoric has backfired.

Having said that, the Democrats don't look any better, perhaps even worse. Nancy and Chuck's response to Trump's oval office address was downright creepy and gained criticism from both sides. Ever see "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" or "The Invasion"? Aliens try to take over the human race by taking over their minds. Slowly but surely people started to behave strangely and appeared like a shell of their prior selves. In other words, they appeared a bit mindless because they were imposters who would lie to achieve a goal that they wouldn't state upfront, control of the human race. That's what Nancy and Chuck looked like and coincidently, gaining control and power is one of their primary ulterior motives as well.

Some Democrats want a steady flow of migrants across the southern border because they know that they'll vote in higher numbers for them which will help Democrats maintain power. I'm not saying that no Democrat in office genuinely cares about the situation that some of these migrants are in but often their concern goes in one direction. They pay less attention to something like the child abuse and deaths that occur as migrants travel here to cross the border illegally and more attention to a child if they die in U.S. custody, which happens far less often. Sometimes it just appears that they care the most when something bad happens if it benefits their policy stances so it's fair to ask if those types genuinely care.
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AuthorMusician
post Jan 16 2019, 04:15 AM
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It's Trump's shutdown because he claimed it publicly on TV. He's trying to wriggle out of it by blaming the Democrats for not giving him what he wants, and he's unwilling to negotiate or listen to anyone else. No big surprise there.

His reasoning is very faulty, claiming that the wall will fix problems of his own making. The wall has no support from anyone who knows the problems at the border, but that's not the point anyway. Trump just wants everyone to capitulate to his demands, which he needs in order to become Supreme Leader (tyrant).

Well, most of us won't let him. He has another election season coming his way, and this time there's no question about who this guy really is. It's also not looking good for the Republican Senate, since it could override Trump's veto if it wanted. But instead it's capitulating to Trump's demands.

What's really boneheaded about this situation is that the last time the Republicans shut down government for a long period, it resulted in them getting blamed for it as well. I can understand why Trump did it due to his ignorance, but the Senate's move to capitulate is mysterious. Maybe the leadership wants Trump to become Supreme Leader, thereby opening the door to all kinds of power plays against democracy in a constitutional republic? Or maybe it's simple stupidity?

Or maybe this is the Republican Party being abandoned as hopeless by those still in its leadership roles?

Maybe it's all about saving face for the Senators? Or something? Very mystifying.

Anyway, public opinion is heading out the door, down the hall, into the street and hailing a cab to someplace else, which for now is the Democratic Party. I don't see that changing while Trump is still POTUS, and same for Pence if his political career survives the witch hunt, which has nabbed quite a few metaphorical witches already.

If Pence goes down the Trump vortex, that leaves Pelosi as POTUS.

I'm not at all doubtful that Republican leadership realizes this, which might explain the capitulation. I'm not so sure that Trump grasps what this would mean. Maybe he doesn't care? Let Pelosi take over until a POTUS is elected in 2020? Oh, he could be counting on this to get some kind of favors from the Republican Party, which would be able to run someone else in 2020.

That would make perfect sense. Trouble is lots of former Republican supporters are being dinked during the shutdown, and people tend to remember such experiences the rest of their lives.

Anyway, it really sucks and it's all Trump's doing. He's pretty much done and should resign ASAP for his own good. I am kinda enjoying his discomfort but sympathize with everyone suffering because of him. Even those who helped him get the Electoral College victory -- unemployment/working for no pay/trying to recover from hurricanes and floods and fires are all too high of a price to pay for getting conned.
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net2007
post Jan 20 2019, 12:51 AM
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AuthorMusician

QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 15 2019, 11:15 PM) *
It's Trump's shutdown because he claimed it publicly on TV. He's trying to wriggle out of it by blaming the Democrats for not giving him what he wants, and he's unwilling to negotiate or listen to anyone else. No big surprise there.

His reasoning is very faulty, claiming that the wall will fix problems of his own making. The wall has no support from anyone who knows the problems at the border, but that's not the point anyway. Trump just wants everyone to capitulate to his demands, which he needs in order to become Supreme Leader (tyrant).

Well, most of us won't let him. He has another election season coming his way, and this time there's no question about who this guy really is. It's also not looking good for the Republican Senate, since it could override Trump's veto if it wanted. But instead it's capitulating to Trump's demands.

What's really boneheaded about this situation is that the last time the Republicans shut down government for a long period, it resulted in them getting blamed for it as well. I can understand why Trump did it due to his ignorance, but the Senate's move to capitulate is mysterious. Maybe the leadership wants Trump to become Supreme Leader, thereby opening the door to all kinds of power plays against democracy in a constitutional republic? Or maybe it's simple stupidity?

Or maybe this is the Republican Party being abandoned as hopeless by those still in its leadership roles?

Maybe it's all about saving face for the Senators? Or something? Very mystifying.

Anyway, public opinion is heading out the door, down the hall, into the street and hailing a cab to someplace else, which for now is the Democratic Party. I don't see that changing while Trump is still POTUS, and same for Pence if his political career survives the witch hunt, which has nabbed quite a few metaphorical witches already.

If Pence goes down the Trump vortex, that leaves Pelosi as POTUS.

I'm not at all doubtful that Republican leadership realizes this, which might explain the capitulation. I'm not so sure that Trump grasps what this would mean. Maybe he doesn't care? Let Pelosi take over until a POTUS is elected in 2020? Oh, he could be counting on this to get some kind of favors from the Republican Party, which would be able to run someone else in 2020.

That would make perfect sense. Trouble is lots of former Republican supporters are being dinked during the shutdown, and people tend to remember such experiences the rest of their lives.

Anyway, it really sucks and it's all Trump's doing. He's pretty much done and should resign ASAP for his own good. I am kinda enjoying his discomfort but sympathize with everyone suffering because of him. Even those who helped him get the Electoral College victory -- unemployment/working for no pay/trying to recover from hurricanes and floods and fires are all too high of a price to pay for getting conned.


I agree with a fair share of the arguments you've made over the years, even in regards to Trump's temperament, but fail to understand your logic on this reply.

QUOTE
It's Trump's shutdown because he claimed it publicly on TV. He's trying to wriggle out of it by blaming the Democrats for not giving him what he wants, and he's unwilling to negotiate or listen to anyone else. No big surprise there.


I find it hard to believe that you think claiming something on TV makes it true. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd assume if I got on TV and took credit for all of your years of guitar playing that you would believe I wasn't being fair to you. Trump claims a lot of things, but the way I see it is that something is either true or it isn't true, whether or not someone claims it. While I think Trump has shot himself in the foot with some of his rhetoric, he has made some effort to negotiate.

Cost estimates for Trump's wall have varied, I've heard 15 billion, 18 billion, and just over 20 billion to complete his project. It'd certainly cost more than 5.7 billion but he didn't demand all of the money upfront. Additionally, some Democrats have been critical of the concept of a concrete wall and thought that a steel barrier would be better. Trump was willing to change his plan to something Democrats would sooner support but that didn't change their stance so it's fair to ask whether or not they were simply using that as a talking point. With these things considered Trump has done some in the way of negotiating and moderating his stance already.

Many Democrats supported similar proposals for a steel barrier in the past but seem unwilling to do anything like that with Trump in office. Many have been resistant to negotiating and even went on vacation shortly after becoming the majority in the House while Trump's stayed mostly in Washington focused on this issue. He's also meeting with border security agents and taking care of a few other things, but he's not vacationing. https://factba.se/topic/calendar Lastly, Nancy Pelosi sarcastically taunts Trump by saying she'll give him a dollar to fund his wall, just to name a few things. None of that is a good look for Democrats and reveals a lack of sincerity on the behalf of those acting in such a way. Do you not see any fault on their end?

I don't like Trump's childish behavior, I don't agree with several of his judgment calls, and am not aligned with him on every policy but the leadership within the Democratic party has created problems of their own and I don't understand why they shouldn't take some responsibility for this shutdown. You seem to be suggesting the opposite but can you point to anything I said that's false? For example, did Nancy Pelosi joke around about offering 1 dollar for the wall and is that type of sarcasm a good indicator that she wants to negotiate?

QUOTE
His reasoning is very faulty, claiming that the wall will fix problems of his own making. The wall has no support from anyone who knows the problems at the border, but that's not the point anyway. Trump just wants everyone to capitulate to his demands, which he needs in order to become Supreme Leader (tyrant).


Trump and many others said that other measures would need to be taken to secure the border, remember? I don't think he intends a wall or fence to be a cure-all solution, he's basically suggesting that a wall/fence is an important factor but it needs to come in combination with a broader strategy. Walls or fences are simply designed to make illegal border crossings more difficult and there have indeed been nations that have used them effectively. However, border barriers have to be patroled and other measures need to be taken to tackle other methods of crossing here illegally, such as immigrants who fly here and overstay their visa's.

America has a horribly disorganized immigration system in place because many politicians are pulling in opposite directions or don't want to get the situation under control and this problem predates the Trump administration and the current House and Senate. I say that because, for decades, both parties have simply put a band-aid on this problem rather than cooperating to put something more efficient in place. From what I see, the wall has support from many who know the problems at the border, do those who work in border security or with ICE not count? I realize the media has often portrayed them as bigoted, but have you been looking into their commentary and actions directly?

QUOTE
If Pence goes down the Trump vortex, that leaves Pelosi as POTUS.


If the Democrats try to advance to impeachment proceedings they'd need a two-thirds supermajority vote in the Senate to end Trumps presidency. For those who are wanting him impeached, there are two major obstacles they'd have to overcome. For starters, there wouldn't be equal justice under the law if they didn't look deeper into the Clintons and other Democrats who are corrupt and that'd cause backlash. Secondly, Republicans and Democrats are incredibly divided but would have to work together to boot Trump out of office.

To explain a little deeper, the extreme elements within the Democratic party don't seem interested in how much dirt has come up on the Clintons, or with people like Peter Srozk and Andrew McCabe. They haven't wanted to hold them accountable and over the years some have also done everything in their power to paint Republicans as intolerant, racist, bigoted, or ignorant. Now they need votes from Republicans and a LOT of them.

The only way I think they're going to get those votes is if they discover and prove that Trump is guilty of something like murder or rape. That may sound extreme but too many rules and laws have been bent or broken by prominent Democrats for Republicans to just wake up one morning and tell themselves that Trump should be held accountable for things that others commonly get away with. I wouldn't be surprised if the left and Robert Mueller eventually find something concrete on Trump and if they do find proof of Clinton level scandalous behavior, my take on it is that Trump, the Clintons, and anyone else who can't stop lying about the things they're doing wrong, should all face consequences.

I think the Dems are in a bit of a pickle over this issue and part of the reason they've often been hesitant to state that they want Trump impeached is because they know it could backfire. If you don't mind me saying this, if you personally don't believe that some of the leadership within the Democratic party is corrupt or unwilling to negotiate, there are news outlets and podcast that will share important information that pundits like Rachel Maddow leave out. I'm not going to tell you that everything she says is wrong but she typically presents the news in a way that protects Democrats while targeting Republicans. So much information is left out or considered unimportant on The Rachel Maddow Show and others like it.

That's not to say right wing media doesn't have a similar type of bias so perhaps a good approach is to get news from both the left and right. I'm willing to say that a fair amount of what left-wing media pundits say about Trump is accurate, it's just usually coming from one angle. There's so much more that can be added to their commentary.

This post has been edited by net2007: Jan 20 2019, 04:49 AM
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droop224
post Feb 2 2019, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE(Net)
I find it hard to believe that you think claiming something on TV makes it true. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd assume if I got on TV and took credit for all of your years of guitar playing that you would believe I wasn't being fair to you. Trump claims a lot of things, but the way I see it is that something is either true or it isn't true, whether or not someone claims it. While I think Trump has shot himself in the foot with some of his rhetoric, he has made some effort to negotiate.

Cost estimates for Trump's wall have varied, I've heard 15 billion, 18 billion, and just over 20 billion to complete his project. It'd certainly cost more than 5.7 billion but he didn't demand all of the money upfront. Additionally, some Democrats have been critical of the concept of a concrete wall and thought that a steel barrier would be better. Trump was willing to change his plan to something Democrats would sooner support but that didn't change their stance so it's fair to ask whether or not they were simply using that as a talking point. With these things considered Trump has done some in the way of negotiating and moderating his stance already.

Many Democrats supported similar proposals for a steel barrier in the past but seem unwilling to do anything like that with Trump in office. Many have been resistant to negotiating and even went on vacation shortly after becoming the majority in the House while Trump's stayed mostly in Washington focused on this issue. He's also meeting with border security agents and taking care of a few other things, but he's not vacationing. https://factba.se/topic/calendar Lastly, Nancy Pelosi sarcastically taunts Trump by saying she'll give him a dollar to fund his wall, just to name a few things. None of that is a good look for Democrats and reveals a lack of sincerity on the behalf of those acting in such a way. Do you not see any fault on their end?

I don't like Trump's childish behavior, I don't agree with several of his judgment calls, and am not aligned with him on every policy but the leadership within the Democratic party has created problems of their own and I don't understand why they shouldn't take some responsibility for this shutdown. You seem to be suggesting the opposite but can you point to anything I said that's false? For example, did Nancy Pelosi joke around about offering 1 dollar for the wall and is that type of sarcasm a good indicator that she wants to negotiate?

Net its not that i disagree with anything you are saying, it is just coming from the lens of a conservative thinking mind... and thus, once again, lacks proper perspective. If a someone says something on TV does that make it true. No it does not, of course not. If someone says they are going to do something on TV, the does it. Yeah, man, that person DID it!
So how does the Conservative framing work on this issue. "Well Trump is willing to negotiate on the wall!!" So what!?!?!? The wall is a part of a broader discussion which is border security. The Democrats and the Republicans are BOTH willing to negotiate on border security, at our northern border, at out southern border, at our coastal borders... everyone is willing to negotiate on our border security.
So allow me to give you perspective just so you can throw it away.
Republicans and Democrats.

Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money domestically.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money for border security. OK. Let's negotiate.
Let's negotiate on where we are going to put our money for our southern border.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate on where we will put our money for a physical barrier on our southern border.Democrats: Around ports of entry?
Republican: Oh no much further than that. 100 of miles of wall?
Democrats: You talking about the one President Trump promised?
Republicans: Yes.Democrats: The one he promised Mexico would pay for??
Republicans (exasperated): YES, now can we please negotiate?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: You can call it a fence?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: It doesn't have to be concrete it can be steel...or hell durable plastic like plumbing pipes.
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans to their base: See!! Democrats won't negotiate on BORDER SECURITY. They're putting our national security at risk. The Mexicans are invading us in force... with rocks, baby strollers, and pregnant women!!! And you know what happens if that pregnant Mexican has a baby in America?!?!? That baby gets to vote and he\she is going to vote liberal in 18 years!!

Republican base: uhhh-dddduuuuuhhh uhhhh-duuuuhhhhhh!! That's right! Theirs an invading force coming from the south. Trumps keeping us safe. MAGA Country!! MAGA Country!! Well what we gonna do TRump!
Trump: I'll tell you what we gonna do. We are going to shut down the government, make federal worker go without paychecks, people i deem essential, I'll just make them work for free. I mean obviously they got a family that depends on that job so its not like they will quit.
Republican base: Go for it, bro!
AND THAT.... is perspective!! He hundreds of thousand of Americans through suffering just to try to get his campaign promise fulfilled. For 2 years you had the House, Senate, and Presidency controlled by Republicans and you don't get "the Wall" Now Democrats have control of the house., making it far less likely you will get the wall, and this is when he makes his all or nothing stance. That make sense?? Really?You better believe Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh are being paid right now. They painted President Trump into a corner on an battle he'd likely lose. They are politically savvy enough to know he wouldn't win. He could have have held out that government shutdown until April and only people would suffer is fellow working class Americans.

And sure there would be the conservative base with their conservative reasoning skills saying like you, well its the dems fault too because they won't negotiate on the wall he demands. But majority of us understand that he is the reason for the shutdown. Him and his base were hoping that the pain and suffering brought upon federal WORKERS and other AMERICANS affected by the shutdown would sway democrats back to the negotiating table. And once again the lack of humanity of conservatives is on display.

This post has been edited by droop224: Feb 2 2019, 09:20 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Feb 4 2019, 07:48 PM
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Donald Trump claimed he'd shut down the government, and by not signing an appropriation bill, he indeed did that. So he has sole possession of his own action, especially since both houses of Congress wanted that bill to be signed.

He said he'd take the blame, or in his mind, wear the monarch's mantel of shutting down the government, which would save lives somehow. He said he wouldn't blame Democrats.

That turned out to be a lie. The shutdown actually endangered lives needlessly. That makes it not only a lie but an act of aggression against the nation itself.

He continues to claim that conditions on the southern border constitute an emergency threat to the USA public, which is another lie, and that stuff from a movie is happening. That might not be a lie but him confusing fiction (fantasy) and reality. If so, he should no longer be the POTUS.

The more he talks, the more that his supporters abandon him. The State of the Union speech is scheduled for tomorrow (2/5/19). Will he attract support or push it even farther away? My bet is on the latter situation if he freestyles/fakes it. If he reads the teleprompter word-for-word, he might not lose support, could even get a few people back.

And then we get to see if he again shuts down the government. McConnell is sweating bullets, I am sure. Then what if an actual national emergency arises? Will it be worse due to the doubt that Trump has sowed himself about himself? What can Congress do about that, if anything? There's impeachment, but that won't do anything to reduce the impacts of an actual national emergency.

Well, let's hope things turn out okay for the nation. I, and a lot of others, don't care a twitty about Trump the child-man. We just hope/pray that he and the Republican Party don't end up hurting the country so bad that it can't recover.

BTW, I don't care if anyone claims my years of guitar and music studies for themselves. It becomes obvious who did what while performing. Heh, the old Zappa admonition to shaddup and play yer guitar holds for Trump: Shaddup and run the country.

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net2007
post Feb 12 2019, 10:59 AM
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Droop

If you don't read this or take it seriously, at minimum jump down to the last four paragraphs.

QUOTE
[Net]its not that i disagree with anything you are saying, it is just coming from the lens of a conservative thinking mind... and thus, once again, lacks proper perspective. If a someone says something on TV does that make it true. No it does not, of course not. If someone says they are going to do something on TV, the does it. Yeah, man, that person DID it!


My guess is that we probably agree on a lot more than you realize but partisanship and cultural differences get in the way. You're suggesting that I'm presenting you with a right of center viewpoint and therefore lack proper perspective. By that measure, would your position be that you also lack perspective given that you consider yourself "very liberal"? Also, do you really feel that having one poster in this thread going into detail about the role of others, apart from Trump, is something that leads to less of an overall perspective here? There's a bit of irony in the fact that we're both talking about a lack of perspective at this point. My take on this is that we can understand a great deal about others but can never know exactly how it feels to be another person, although we can try to empathize. So I think there's a distinction to be made between those two things.

In other words, when Nancy Pelosi lies or jokes around about offering Trump one dollar to build this wall/fence, I can know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that what she's doing is counterproductive if negotiating fairly with Trump and most Republicans were her goal. I include Republicans as well because most of them support a plan to build a barrier so the comment comes off as insincere and a hit on a President that most of them support. When Pelosi also speaks of bipartisanship and uniting the country, while criticizing Trump for not doing so, I think it'd also be very fair to say that this and a number of other things show a great deal of hypocrisy. I don't need to be on the far left to understand those things but I can't know exactly how others feel, or exactly what's going through Pelosi's head when she says things like that.

I think the same rule applies to Trump, there's a great deal of material to work with on him as well but a lot of people jump from A - D when criticizing him without bothering with steps B and C to help verify their conclusion and some do that on purpose as well. For the part in bold, sure Trump plays a big role in shutting down the government but two things can be true at the same time, both sides can be playing a role. In reference to a fair portion of Trump critics and Democrats, unless flat out false accusations are being made, most of the time my issue isn't that Trump is being criticized, it's that too many aren't holding politicians or others accountable if they happen to agree with them politically.

Much of what I'm putting emphasis on is in regards to double standards. I don't think anybody is going to be completely even-handed to their political opponents on issues where there's a lot of disagreement, but we can try to be honest in our assessments and give credit where it's due for sure.

Each party has strengths but I don't believe unity or bipartisanship is a strong point of the current House, Senate, or Presidency. Whether or not the Democrats who happen to be playing a role, admit to it, many of them did play a role in this shutdown and in resisting Trump on nearly every policy. Some have even been open about wanting to resist Trump every step of the way. The biggest exception to that rule is when they work with him on something that they want or if it's routine legislation. I consider things such as the new healthcare bill that Trump and Republicans wanted to pass, the tax reform bill, what they put Brett Kavanaugh through, among other things. What they tried to do to Kavanaugh was one of the most obvious cases of corruption in government that I can think of. The rhetoric that was used, the fact that there was virtually NO give by elected Democrats, regardless of the sheer lack evidence and despite the fact that the accusers were caught lying, with one even admitting she made the story up. All of that nonsense should have sent red-flags, even to those who adamantly support elected Democrats.

Now there's a massive amount of resistance to expanding the fencing along the border, something which many of the same legislators supported under Obama. With all that has happened, it's easy to see that this is a trend where some will find any excuse not to work with Trump. I think it's fair to call their sincerity and calls for unity into question. I can gather that the feeling is mutual from various Trump critics, modern liberals, etc, etc, I'm just trying to get across that Trump is far from being the only one who has said and done things which have caused division or made it hard to work together to pass legislation. I think that can be acknowledged without giving Trump a pass.

QUOTE
So how does the Conservative framing work on this issue. "Well Trump is willing to negotiate on the wall!!" So what!?!?!? The wall is a part of a broader discussion which is border security. The Democrats and the Republicans are BOTH willing to negotiate on border security, at our northern border, at out southern border, at our coastal borders... everyone is willing to negotiate on our border security.
So allow me to give you perspective just so you can throw it away.
Republicans and Democrats.

Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money domestically.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money for border security. OK. Let's negotiate.
Let's negotiate on where we are going to put our money for our southern border.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate on where we will put our money for a physical barrier on our southern border.Democrats: Around ports of entry?
Republican: Oh no much further than that. 100 of miles of wall?
Democrats: You talking about the one President Trump promised?
Republicans: Yes.Democrats: The one he promised Mexico would pay for??
Republicans (exasperated): YES, now can we please negotiate?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: You can call it a fence?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: It doesn't have to be concrete it can be steel...or hell durable plastic like plumbing pipes.
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans to their base: See!! Democrats won't negotiate on BORDER SECURITY. They're putting our national security at risk. The Mexicans are invading us in force... with rocks, baby strollers, and pregnant women!!! And you know what happens if that pregnant Mexican has a baby in America?!?!? That baby gets to vote and he\she is going to vote liberal in 18 years!!

Republican base: uhhh-dddduuuuuhhh uhhhh-duuuuhhhhhh!! That's right! Theirs an invading force coming from the south. Trumps keeping us safe. MAGA Country!! MAGA Country!! Well what we gonna do TRump!
Trump: I'll tell you what we gonna do. We are going to shut down the government, make federal worker go without paychecks, people i deem essential, I'll just make them work for free. I mean obviously they got a family that depends on that job so its not like they will quit.
Republican base: Go for it, bro!
AND THAT.... is perspective!! He hundreds of thousand of Americans through suffering just to try to get his campaign promise fulfilled. For 2 years you had the House, Senate, and Presidency controlled by Republicans and you don't get "the Wall" Now Democrats have control of the house., making it far less likely you will get the wall, and this is when he makes his all or nothing stance. That make sense?? Really?You better believe Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh are being paid right now. They painted President Trump into a corner on an battle he'd likely lose. They are politically savvy enough to know he wouldn't win. He could have have held out that government shutdown until April and only people would suffer is fellow working class Americans.

And sure there would be the conservative base with their conservative reasoning skills saying like you, well its the dems fault too because they won't negotiate on the wall he demands. But majority of us understand that he is the reason for the shutdown. Him and his base were hoping that the pain and suffering brought upon federal WORKERS and other AMERICANS affected by the shutdown would sway democrats back to the negotiating table. And once again the lack of humanity of conservatives is on display.


This section,.....

QUOTE
Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money domestically.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate where we are going to put our money for border security. OK. Let's negotiate.
Let's negotiate on where we are going to put our money for our southern border.OK. Let's negotiate.
Lets negotiate on where we will put our money for a physical barrier on our southern border.Democrats: Around ports of entry?
Republican: Oh no much further than that. 100 of miles of wall?
Democrats: You talking about the one President Trump promised?
Republicans: Yes.Democrats: The one he promised Mexico would pay for??
Republicans (exasperated): YES, now can we please negotiate?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: You can call it a fence?
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans: It doesn't have to be concrete it can be steel...or hell durable plastic like plumbing pipes.
Democrats: No, we don't want it.
Republicans to their base: See!! Democrats won't negotiate on BORDER SECURITY. They're putting our national security at risk. The Mexicans are invading us in force... with rocks, baby strollers, and pregnant women!!! And you know what happens if that pregnant Mexican has a baby in America?!?!? That baby gets to vote and he\she is going to vote liberal in 18 years!!


along with follow-ups like this,...

QUOTE
Republican base: uhhh-dddduuuuuhhh uhhhh-duuuuhhhhhh!! That's right! Theirs an invading force coming from the south. Trumps keeping us safe. MAGA Country!! MAGA Country!!


primary come off as if you're simply inserting your heartfelt sympathies for the Republican party. tongue.gif I can't say I've heard a Republican say uhhhh-duuuuhhhhhh, before opening their sentence, but to play along, I could always search deep to find the dumbest individuals that the Republican party has to offer. There are those types but my hunch is that I'd also be coming across Democrats who open a sentence with "blah blah bibidy boo bop" along the way, and probably Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and a few others talking about the fight against cow farts.

As before, the same applies to this last quote of yours, both sides have their share of individuals who don't make well thought out arguments. To me acknowledging these kinds of things is exactly what offers a broader perspective. Without that, it's like a trial where the prosecution is able to make their case while the defense has duct tape on their mouths or similar to Robert Mueller's investigating team being full of Democratic donors and people who hate Trump. With one political point of view being dominate where's a broader sense of perspective with that?

I don't think both Democrats and Republicans are equally at fault on every topic, but on the shutdown the argument that Trump is more responsible hasn't been made in this thread yet, it sounds more along the lines of Trump being solely responsible, which seems like a common theme for some. The polls don't support that in regards to this shutdown and there's too much evidence to suggest there's shared responsibility that should be taken.

I understand that Trump does say things which cause confusion, what you said in that analogy about Trump claiming Mexico will pay for the wall, that was a dumb comment for sure. As for the rest, you did mention some about what concerns people about illegal immigration but you did so in a sarcastic fashion. Yes, pregnant women were used to help repel law enforcement, some immigrants have been aggressive and violent with law enforcement, some have dropped toddlers over the top of the fencing, sexual assaults on children happen frequently and some very hard drugs are coming across the border as well. Why do you hint at things like that in a sarcastic fashion, do you assume those things are a lie? Do you assume those things are mentioned as a front for something else? What makes something like pregnant women being put at risk or child abuse unimportant if it's at the hands of migrants coming here illegally? I haven't heard anyone say that those events are a fair representation of migrants as a whole.

You said....

QUOTE
The Democrats and the Republicans are BOTH willing to negotiate on border security


It'd help develop trust if things like child abuse weren't being downplayed. As I said before, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of focus on the types of cases where an immigrant child dies in U.S. custody compared to the child abuse, deaths, and violence that occur during illegal crossings. The focus often goes to how we can help immigrants after they cross illegally, or how bad ICE is, or racism, or how we don't have ideal facilities to deal with those who have already crossed. Rhetorically and on policy, there's a long list of things which demonstrate that some don't take this seriously. Things such as the condition of Mexican migrants who have already gotten here are very important as far as I'm concerned but if other problems are being downplayed, and continuous games keep getting played then it does raise questions.

I don't doubt that there are Democrats who aren't participating in selective outrage and who want to improve border security, in fact, I've heard from some of them but there's a group of extremist who don't want to improve this situation and those who appear to not want Trump to be the one to improve this situation. Politicians on both sides have had a long time to do more to prevent what we're seeing now. Whether we're to call this a problem or a crisis, take a look at what's actually happening and ask yourself if politicians have done more bickering or problem-solving.

On a personal note...

The reason I don't tie myself too closely in with Democrats or Republicans, or adhere to every liberal or conservative value is because I know that neither side has the solution to everything and I know they're often going to get it wrong. I don't want to be in a position where I feel like I have to defend those who make dumb decisions because I start feeling it's best for the party I side with more. In reality, that kind of dishonesty does nothing to improve either party and incentivizes politicians to keep screwing up and treating their followers like they're ignorant. You responded to my last reply almost as if my criticisms of Democrat's like Pelosi were equivalent to me scrutinizing a close friend or family member of yours. I can't say I know for sure what your reasons are or where you're getting your information to help develop your opinions but whatever the case is, please don't let radicals change how you view others. I wasn't blowing smoke when I said I thought you were a valuable member here.

The Democratic party today and our system of government in a larger sense is in a LOT of trouble and I don't say that lightly. Lying is common, politicians teaching their constituents to hate the other side is common, passing off every problem to the next guy is common, and a lot of people are confused, upset, and bitter as a result. Politicians, including the Democrats who are involved, are guilty of a lot more than being responsible for another government shutdown.

This may end up being one of those topics where there's too much partisan divide for us to have a civil discussion, I just hope that the debates I've had with you over the years have at least left you with something useful or new to think about. I may not be doing these in-depth responses much longer, I'm in a crazy phase in my life and have also lost some hope that those with opposing viewpoints will be receptive enough of each other to lead to meaningful change, at least not anytime soon. AD appears to be reaching it's end as well.

I've been letting Jamie know on Facebook when the site goes down and so far she's been willing to get the site up and running again but the last time I contacted her a couple weeks ago, I got no response. The website was back up again the next day but now that we can log back in, there appears to be a security issue with the website and I'd be willing to bet that has scared off another member or two. I feel like I don't want to bug her much more than I have already. From some of her writings, it appears to me that Jamie is burnt out on the divisive nature of politics. I'm hoping the site doesn't go out with that kind of a tone but politics has a way of getting into the heads of otherwise sensible people. I'm not upset so much as saddened that there's so much bitterness and miscommunication. In the scheme of things, America has a long way to go to get out of this mess.


AuthorMusician

Your welcome to take a look at some of my reply to Droop, I cover more on this topic there, I'd basically be doubling up on some of the same information with you if I were to go further. I definitely don't agree with some of your positions here, I agree that the shutdown was needless but I'll leave it at that, you seem to have made up your mind.

This post has been edited by net2007: Feb 12 2019, 11:22 AM
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droop224
post Feb 13 2019, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE(Net)
My guess is that we probably agree on a lot more than you realize but partisanship and cultural differences get in the way. You're suggesting that I'm presenting you with a right of center viewpoint and therefore lack proper perspective. By that measure, would your position be that you also lack perspective given that you consider yourself "very liberal"? Also, do you really feel that having one poster in this thread going into detail about the role of others, apart from Trump, is something that leads to less of an overall perspective here? There's a bit of irony in the fact that we're both talking about a lack of perspective at this point. My take on this is that we can understand a great deal about others but can never know exactly how it feels to be another person, although we can try to empathize. So I think there's a distinction to be made between those two things.


net, we agree where we agree and we debate where we don't. Let me address this again for you though. The nature of being liberal is to be open-minded. Where i am being close minded on certain issues i do not think i am being liberal. NOW it is important that you know the order of things on this. It is not because i call myself a liberal that i am open-minded. DO NOT think i am saying that or implying that. Its because i am open-minded nature that leads me to be a self proclaimed "liberal". My point. Here is the argument that conservatives often make, which boils to this: "Liberals think they are so open-minded and unbiased but they are close minded to people with close minds and they show bias to people who are being bias."

Now do i think a Conservative would characterize it like this? No I don't. But that is the gift of being a conservative, you only have to look at issues from one angle, yours. and you will shape and frame an argument and circumstances and totality of the fact to fit your agenda.

BTW i can talk bad about "liberals" too. Democrats leadership and most democratic congress people are paid off. They are bought by the same corporations that have bought. Hillary Clinton is corrupt. Kamala Harris sucks. I can talk about some of the liberal agenda too. #metoo is the worst thing I've ever seen on the liberal platform next to our pseudo love for Israel.

Its not about the politicians. Its not about one agenda here or there. Its about what your movement supports over all, in spite of the life long politicians, in spite of the wayward agendas. And what's the border wall desire really all about? Law and order? Please!! The sad thing is you all lie to yourselves so much I'm sure you believe that is the issue. "We just want the law upheld!" No, that the subtext. What you fear is that the nation is becoming too "brown". And that's what your are fighting to avoid.

"Build a wall!!" For what?!? Will they still want to come in the country? "Yes!!" Why? "Because we are GREAT!!" No... guys and gals, think, why?!?!?! "Opportunity, jobs, income they can send back to their families!" So what are we doing about the incentive. How hard are we going at companies or private contractors that hire an illegal immigrant. What jail time and fines are we willing to company and corporate heads? How are we making laws to really stick it to "job creators" that hire anyone other than an American? Are we putting the same amount of effort to demonize, penalize, and convict people who hire an illegal immigrant that we do a low level drug dealer?

NO. Are we doing nothing? I can't say that, I've seen the stats. ICE does their job. There are fines and occasional criminal penalties of business owners. But where is the right wing energy in going after the CEO's, Business owners that you see going after low level immigrants. Where is the Right wing energy to put in the technical and legal infrastructure to force businesses to use system that would prevent an illegal immigrant from showing a fake license like the energy i see in "build a wall"? It never ceases to amaze me how the right wing loves to attack the weakest to prove they are the strongest.

Any ways lets get to my issues on your post.

QUOTE
In other words, when Nancy Pelosi lies or jokes around about offering Trump one dollar to build this wall/fence, I can know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that what she's doing is counterproductive if negotiating fairly with Trump and most Republicans were her goal. I include Republicans as well because most of them support a plan to build a barrier so the comment comes off as insincere and a hit on a President that most of them support. When Pelosi also speaks of bipartisanship and uniting the country, while criticizing Trump for not doing so, I think it'd also be very fair to say that this and a number of other things show a great deal of hypocrisy. I don't need to be on the far left to understand those things but I can't know exactly how others feel, or exactly what's going through Pelosi's head when she says things like that.
You can know... beyond a reasonable doubt?? You can't even properly characterize the situation. The one dollar comment comes because she was being pressed by a reporter with a question saying..."you say you won't negotiate about a wall to end a shut down... WHAT IF there was a bill to give the wall one dollar would you support it..." Then she was like "one dollar... one dollar... sure but that's not the point blah blah blah." I'm paraphrasing but here is a link. So, forgive me, but if you can not correctly characterize the exchange i doubt you can correctly assess her as being counter productive in negotiating with Conservative politicians.

QUOTE
What they tried to do to Kavanaugh was one of the most obvious cases of corruption in government that I can think of. The rhetoric that was used, the fact that there was virtually NO give by elected Democrats, regardless of the sheer lack evidence and despite the fact that the accusers were caught lying, with one even admitting she made the story up. All of that nonsense should have sent red-flags, even to those who adamantly support elected Democrats.
See here we go. Whose vacancy was that to originally fill? Who died? When did they die?? Exactly, don't talk to me about corruption. I can't STAND #metoo. At its essence, its anti-justice masked as justice. So i get the ire, but conservatives complaining about unfairness in how Democrats treated their USSC nominees, c'mon. It's like they live in some sort of group narcissistic bubble where they can only see how they are wronged, but have no clue just how morally bankrupt their behavior is.

Dems played big time politics... and i don't know why. If a conservative has to chose between morality and winning, they'll chose winning 99 times out of 100. They'll just reframe it. "We had to kill all those women and children with those nukes, if we didn't, we'd end up killing more women and children in other ways!" Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't but it wouldn't have matter if he did. So yeah, politically stupid of the Dems, but what Conservative took the right for a sitting President to appoint a Judge, for NO reason, just because they had the power to do so.

QUOTE
I don't think both Democrats and Republicans are equally at fault on every topic, but on the shutdown the argument that Trump is more responsible hasn't been made in this thread yet, it sounds more along the lines of Trump being solely responsible, which seems like a common theme for some. The polls don't support that in regards to this shutdown and there's too much evidence to suggest there's shared responsibility that should be taken.


Net, if someone was carjacked at gunpoint and told to hand over the keys, but they refuse, is the shooter "solely" responsible for the shooting?. For the sake of argument lets assume that the shooter would not have shot if the victim would just follow his\her demands.

You might think this analogy is different, but its not. I, 100%, admit that if Dems would have given in to Trumps demands the Shutdown would not have happened. I cannot deny this.

But in the same vein as my analogy. If he makes a demand, then threatens a consequence with that demand, then follows through with the consequence of that demand not being met... he is responsible. Sure whenever someone makes a demand on us, and we refuse, there can be a consequence. We could get physically assaulted, our finances may be in jeopardy, we may lose someone we care about. But if you are the one making the demand and then you execute the decision to promote a negative consequence, yeah, you are responsible.

And the moral argument continues of why would you do that to Americans for so long, just so you can keep your campaign promise?

Lastly, the greater point i was making that was ignored. Is Democrats were negotiating on resource allocation and border security on the southern border. They just weren't negotiating a wall that extended the southern border.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Feb 14 2019, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 13 2019, 10:26 AM) *
Its not about the politicians. Its not about one agenda here or there. Its about what your movement supports over all, in spite of the life long politicians, in spite of the wayward agendas. And what's the border wall desire really all about? Law and order? Please!! The sad thing is you all lie to yourselves so much I'm sure you believe that is the issue. "We just want the law upheld!" No, that the subtext. What you fear is that the nation is becoming too "brown". And that's what your are fighting to avoid.


Well, boarder patrol experts agree an extension of the wall is necessary for enforcement. Pretty much anywhere you want to keep things out, you build a barrier.

QUOTE
NO. Are we doing nothing? I can't say that, I've seen the stats. ICE does their job. There are fines and occasional criminal penalties of business owners. But where is the right wing energy in going after the CEO's, Business owners that you see going after low level immigrants.


I'm glad you've seen the ICE facts. That means you know ICE arrests of employers was up 700 percent last year. You can peruse the internet for messages from lawyers on how to obfuscate *cough* comply with the new, stricter laws that make employers accountable. Or just see what California (the most liberal of liberal states) did in response...they required a 72 hour warning, making enforcement on employers essentially impossible.



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droop224
post Feb 14 2019, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE
Well, boarder patrol experts agree an extension of the wall is necessary for enforcement. Pretty much anywhere you want to keep things out, you build a barrier.


Do they? Really? Or do they say what they are told to say?? https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/...-taxpayer-money




QUOTE
On January 3, Brandon Judd, the president of the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC), stood next to President Trump in the White House Briefing Room and addressed the press: “I can personally tell you, from the work I’ve done on the southwest border, that walls actually work,” he said. “You hear a lot talk that there are experts that say that walls don’t work. I promise you that if you interview Border Patrol agents, they will tell you that walls work.”

After Judd finished speaking, Trump said that Judd and his colleagues “basically said—and I can take the word ‘basically’ out—that without a wall, you cannot have border security.”

At that very moment, however, the official policy of Judd’s organization—a union for employees of US Customs and Border Control—was that it “disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal immigration into the United States.


I can also cite an article by historians and other professionals as to why walls fail. But it boils down to this: Sure barriers keep things out but its not going to keep out people. i just want to throw out there, that illegal immigrant are people.

QUOTE
I'm glad you've seen the ICE facts. That means you know ICE arrests of employers was up 700 percent last year.
Check your source on this one. I don't want to crack your head over this one but see if your source actually says "ICE arrests of employers and workers was up 700 percent last year" You've a far better command of the English language than me, so i think you can see how those 2 word changes the meaning of that statement. And i mean it when i say, its likely an honest mistake on your part, but it is being delivered to the populace in a disingenuous manner so that we consume the information incorrectly. Factually they don't lie, but its easy to misconstrue.

Usatoday did a decent job at breaking it down:

Feds targeting more worksites crack down on undocumented workers – but not their employers

This is from DEC 2018

QUOTE
The Trump administration ramped up arrests at businesses suspected of employing undocumented immigrants in 2018, but data obtained by USA TODAY show that federal agents did so by mostly targeting those working illegally and not their employers.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was ordered to quadruple worksite enforcement this year, and it did just that. In fiscal year 2018, which ended Sept. 30, ICE set 10-year highs for the number of worksite audits conducted (5,981) and criminal charges filed (779).

ICE leadership claimed its crackdown is focused on employers and employees equally as part of a balanced approach to worksite enforcement, but the data show that the majority of arrests in 2018 were of workers.

The 113 members of management charged with criminal violations in 2018 increased 82 percent from the previous year, but the 666 workers charged with criminal violations increased by 812 percent. The number of "administrative arrests" – those for basic immigration violations that are predominantly used against workers – spiked from 172 in 2017 to 1,525 in 2018. The 121 federal indictments and convictions of managers in 2018 represented a 10-year low for the agency.


The graph in this link is so telling. Like i asked, "where is the right wing energy in going after the CEO's, Business owners that you see going after low level immigrants?" Can you see what i am saying by that graph?

QUOTE
You can peruse the internet for messages from lawyers on how to obfuscate *cough* comply with the new, stricter laws that make employers accountable. Or just see what California (the most liberal of liberal states) did in response...they required a 72 hour warning, making enforcement on employers essentially impossible.


So let's get something clear. The LEFT wing, my wing, does not care about the country getting more brown. Most of us don't care that 60 years down the road we may be bilingual country. We don't feel oh we are more brown and have to know multiple languages as an overall negative. So, again looking at the graph, you can see how our efforts under a Democratic President will be than say an ICE agency under a Republican president.

But all this, is beside the point I'm trying to make Mrs P. Most of the increase in ICE arrest comes from what Mrs P? Am i correct to say more ICE raids at places of business rounding up workers? So while much of the rhetoric revolves around keeping out these rapist, drug dealers, and killer... actually ICE increased numbers come from locking up farmhands, construction workers, restaurant employees. So you are building the wall in hopes to stop the Mexican and latino WORKERS from getting in. BUT WHERE IS THE CONSERVATIVE ENERGY, AT THE BASE, TO PUNISH AND PENALIZE BUSINESS OWNERS? Why aren't they screaming for the heaviest fines, why aren't they screaming for jail time? They are chanting "Build a wall!!" "Build the wall", what happened to "Lock them up!!"?? Why is E-verify not federally mandated law by now?

If most of the people ICE are arresting are workers, what would happen if there was no work? Would-beImmigrants could stay home with their families and be broke, why come to the US.

But rich White people want the illegal immigrants, small and medium size business can use the cheap labor to be more profitable. But they won't tell poor white people that, because they need that poor White Racist vote to push them ahead in election. Let me clarify, I'm not implying that every Conservative is poor white Racist, but i am implying that the rich White man needs the poor White racist votes to get their rich White agenda through.

So instead of going after the root of the problem, job creators in need of cheap labor for profiteering, the poor latino is given as a sacrifice. Instead of building infrastructure, laws and regulations, technology that would prevent the ability of a business to hire illegal immigrants... conservatives want to build a wall!!

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post Feb 15 2019, 02:42 AM
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Do they? Really? Or do they say what they are told to say??

Well, some retired border patrol agents that have been interviewed concur. Also Obama's Border Patrol Chief.
Not much incentive for them to lie or “say what they are told to say”.

QUOTE
I can also cite an article by historians and other professionals as to why walls fail.

Like the Maginot Line? Yeah, I doubt the South Americans are going to launch an air attack any time soon.

QUOTE
But it boils down to this: Sure barriers keep things out but its not going to keep out people. i just want to throw out there, that illegal immigrant are people.

Walls aren’t a panacea but they’re a tried and true deterrent. The Great Wall of China wasn’t built to keep antelope out. Military bases use walls. So do rich people who want extra security. So do industrial zones if they’re doing work that they don’t want outsiders to view.

The actual archive from the link shows they selectively quoted. The full quote:
QUOTE
The NBPC disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal entries into the United States.  However, as long as we continue to operate under the current NBPS and ignore the problem that is causing illegal immigration, we realize fences and walls are essential.

That’s another way of saying “until we fix the real underlying problems, fences and walls are essential”. So, IOW, fences and walls are essential AT PRESENT.

Per the graph, that's interesting...but I wasn't able to find the original data from the ICE.
I did find something related: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ice-works...ions-fy18-surge
QUOTE
In fiscal year 2018, HSI opened 6,848 worksite investigations compared to 1,691 in FY17; initiated 5,981 I-9 audits compared to 1,360; and made 779 criminal and 1,525 administrative worksite-related arrests compared to 139 and 172, respectively; all of these categories surged by 300 to 750 percent over the previous fiscal year.

“Employers who use an illegal workforce as part of their business model put businesses that do follow the law at a competitive disadvantage,” said Benner. “HSI is committed to upholding the laws that govern worksite enforcement. These laws help protect jobs for U.S. citizens and others who are lawfully employed, reduce the incentive of illegal migration, eliminate unfair competitive advantages for companies that hire an illegal workforce, and ultimately help strengthen public safety and national security.”

Criminal indictments and convictions remained at a steady level compared to previous years, but those numbers are also expected to rise due to many ongoing investigations, which can take months to years to fully develop, according to HSI. In fiscal year 2018, HSI saw 72 managers indicted compared to 71 in FY17, and 49 managers convicted in FY18 versus 55 in FY17.


I agree that the real pressure must be on the businesses that hire. Time will tell if it's just lip service, but I think it's reasonable believe investigations for business owners take more time as there is a great deal more paperwork involved (also kind of obvious it's not going to be a one to one relationship....there are many undocumented workers for every manager who hires them).

Per the bit about "brown people" and "your wing"...well, all I will say to that is we have a lot of migrants moving from California to here. After they've ruined their own state they are fleeing those terrible conditions and want to bring the same culture here and turn it into another California.
And they're pretty much exclusively WHITE rich Ivory Tower loonies.

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droop224
post Feb 15 2019, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs P)
Walls aren’t a panacea but they’re a tried and true deterrent.
Well then lets stop with the hyperbolic language and just agree here. Walls provide a deterrent.

We could go back and forth all day with quotes and articles about how much of a deterrent it is. Even in the article you provide the reasoning the agent uses to why a wall works, his explanation would have a diminishing effect if the whole border was walled up.



QUOTE
“When I started out in Imperial Beach in 1995 the wall was being installed. Areas that already had a wall allowed us to respond to those areas without having to have agents constantly nearby. That freed up our resources and man power so we could then focus on other areas,” he explained.

“So as the wall was being put up, those areas were then secured enough that instead of having 2,000 people standing there getting ready to cross, it pushed them to areas that didn’t have a wall and we could funnel them effectively and work those groups in areas that were one, less dangerous to them – the areas they were going through were highly dangerous – and two, it allowed the agents to stay safe as well, if it’s dangerous for them, then it’s dangerous for us as well,” Regalado said.
When the entire coast is stretched with wall you are back to square one of spreading agents out trying to locate where they are climbing over, cutting through, or going under. You won't stop anything, but yes you will deter. And with every year as coyotes learn to circumvent the wall it will become less and less a deterrent.

QUOTE
That’s another way of saying “until we fix the real underlying problems, fences and walls are essential”. So, IOW, fences and walls are essential AT PRESENT.
No, I think its a way to double speak for political reasons. Walls are essential... to do what? Do you know the answer to that question? Well, I believe they are saying that walls are essential to NBPS (National Border Patrol Strategy). Throughout this page they are telling you that NBPS is a failed strategy. So, IOW, walls are essential to a FAILED Strategy. From the link:

QUOTE
Overall, the strategy is a failure. However, Agency officials routinely misrepresent the facts in an attempt to mislead the politicians and the public:
The webpage goes in more depth, but for me that is enough make my point.

QUOTE
I agree that the real pressure must be on the businesses that hire. Time will tell if it's just lip service, but I think it's reasonable believe investigations for business owners take more time as there is a great deal more paperwork involved (also kind of obvious it's not going to be a one to one relationship....there are many undocumented workers for every manager who hires them).
no disagreement, none, zip, zero, but not really addressing the pointed question of "Where is the energy from the base to go after the employers?".

If the greater, more underlying, issue causing illegal immigration is illegal hiring practices, why isn't that the chant? Why are conservatives so concerned with going after impoverished brown people, rather than going after the wealthy White people that are the source of the issue. Where is the logic? Where is the reasoning? Trump shutdown the government (getting back to the debate a little) because of a wall. Now like the dictator he is, he will declare a national emergency to force his will on our democracy. And conservatives love him!! He took away income from American families for "a deterrence". He made Americans come to work everyday for free for a " campaign promise".

And for what threat did\do we have to go through these extremes. Do undocumented immigrants kill more Americans than rampant gun proliferation? No. Legal drug overdoses? No. Car accidents? No. Researching this question, do you know what i found out. You are more like to be killed by food poisoning than an undocumented immigrant. Ironically did you know much of the FDA was closed due to the shutdown? laugh.gif It's funny to me, but it isn't funny. I've debated Conservatives enough to understand you all see threats. small threats can easily be made to be big threats, just part of the psychology. But now we got a President who fans those flames of irrationality, maybe because he is a con, maybe because he believes it himself. Your are hurting other Americans and you are creating Constitutional crises doing it.







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Mrs. Pigpen
post Feb 15 2019, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 15 2019, 11:59 AM) *
We could go back and forth all day with quotes and articles about how much of a deterrent it is. Even in the article you provide the reasoning the agent uses to why a wall works, his explanation would have a diminishing effect if the whole border was walled up.
(snip)
When the entire coast is stretched with wall you are back to square one of spreading agents out trying to locate where they are climbing over, cutting through, or going under.


Excluded middle fallacy. Extending the wall doesn't mean it has to be stretched entirely across the whole border area.

QUOTE
And for what threat did\do we have to go through these extremes.


These are not extreme measures. They're pretty rudimentary.

QUOTE
Do undocumented immigrants kill more Americans than rampant gun proliferation? No. Legal drug overdoses? No. Car accidents? No. Researching this question, do you know what i found out. You are more like to be killed by food poisoning than an undocumented immigrant. Ironically did you know much of the FDA was closed due to the shutdown? laugh.gif It's funny to me, but it isn't funny. I've debated Conservatives enough to understand you all see threats. small threats can easily be made to be big threats, just part of the psychology. But now we got a President who fans those flames of irrationality, maybe because he is a con, maybe because he believes it himself. Your are hurting other Americans and you are creating Constitutional crises doing it.


Aside from crime which is a topic in and of itself (human trafficking is a crime)...let's ignore for now.
Take a look at what is happening in Italy right now to see how masses of humanity showing up on the shores, requiring the extension of resources, can impact a society. They've just elected and anti-immigration prime minister for that reason. Or look around the Middle East at the refugee crisis.

The impact on employment:
It is only when illegal workers, paid under the table below minimum wage and without Social Security, unemployment insurance, etc., are allowed to enter the equation, they become Jobs Americans Won’t Do… because they are Jobs Americans Can’t Do… or they will have to live a third world lifestyle until the IRS catches up to them.
The H1B visa program's recent changes are pretty good too (though I'd have to look it up a bit more to speak knowledgeably). They apply to skilled labor.
Companies are now encouraged to hire Americans instead of non-Americans at half price. Which is a good thing, as globalizing labor costs (but not product prices) is great for companies but death to the middle class. The changes seem to offer transparency and encourage market wages to be paid to take away the big advantage for ditching Americans and hiring non-Americans… but still allowing non-Americans to be hired if there is honestly no American to do the job.


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droop224
post Feb 16 2019, 03:14 AM
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Excluded middle fallacy. Extending the wall doesn't mean it has to be stretched entirely across the whole border area
Excuse my hyperbole. i understand that the wall wouldn't be necessary for area where natural barriers exist, but aside from that the President is promising an expansive wall. I'm not trying to over-exaggerate the Presidents position, he does enough of that on his own. Nor am i making the fallacy you elude to. The promise given to Americans is a thousand or so miles of wall. We have enough agents to watch a thousand miles worth of wall just on the southern border? Lets not pretend we are talking ten miles here... ten miles of wall there, strategically placed.

QUOTE
These are not extreme measures. They're pretty rudimentary.
I think you think I was referring to the wall being the extreme measure. If so, no, you are quite correct the wall is rudimentary. The extremes i was referring to are putting Americans out of work and making them work for free and causing a Constitutional Crisis by declaring some emergency to circumvent the legislature for something so rudimentary.

QUOTE
Aside from crime which is a topic in and of itself (human trafficking is a crime)...let's ignore for now.
Take a look at what is happening in Italy right now to see how masses of humanity showing up on the shores, requiring the extension of resources, can impact a society. They've just elected and anti-immigration prime minister for that reason. Or look around the Middle East at the refugee crisis
Yeah, let's ignore that. Like I said, I'm sure you can find all sorts threats. Conservative minded people exist in every nation, in every group of people. They are the people that "see" the threat, want to destroy the threat, while never being able to see that they are threat. Europeans made a country in the middle east then looked around and said "we have to defend ourselves cause people hate us" then started killing the people around them. Do Italians have their military and economic interest in ANY other place other than Italy? Hmmm?? OK then. I'd write more, but not the debate.

QUOTE
The impact on employment:
It is only when illegal workers, paid under the table below minimum wage and without Social Security, unemployment insurance, etc., are allowed to enter the equation, they become Jobs Americans Won’t Do… because they are Jobs Americans Can’t Do… or they will have to live a third world lifestyle until the IRS catches up to them.
The H1B visa program's recent changes are pretty good too (though I'd have to look it up a bit more to speak knowledgeably). They apply to skilled labor.
Companies are now encouraged to hire Americans instead of non-Americans at half price. Which is a good thing, as globalizing labor costs (but not product prices) is great for companies but death to the middle class. The changes seem to offer transparency and encourage market wages to be paid to take away the big advantage for ditching Americans and hiring non-Americans… but still allowing non-Americans to be hired if there is honestly no American to do the job


Again, not one disagreement from me. BUUUUTTTT..... back to my point. In fairness not one you can give me the answer to as to why, there is no right wing energy to go after the problem. It's like so many other issues the right wing ignore the problems created by the rich and powerful, in fact they go find themselves a rich powerful President that openly admitted that he used his wealth to corrupt our political system. But point those conservatives at some poor brown people and how dangerous they are rapist and murderers and... oh.. traffickers of human and drugs, and then you watch the passions of them conservatives well up. Just like they did for crackheads and welfare queens! They have a new brown people to protect themselves from... and they need a wall against these savages.

You'd have a point if conservatives would just for ONCE take the fight to the rich and powerful to right the wrongs they create. "Jobs" is just the PC reason to do exactly what conservatives are begging to do, round up brown people and remove them from this country. And i get it, i do. They are here illegally, they make babies that are not illegal, making this country less and less "American" every day.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Feb 16 2019, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 15 2019, 10:14 PM) *
We have enough agents to watch a thousand miles worth of wall just on the southern border? Lets not pretend we are talking ten miles here... ten miles of wall there, strategically placed.


Currently we have agents watching a thousand miles worth of an area with NO wall. Which is easier?

QUOTE
The extremes i was referring to are putting Americans out of work and making them work for free and causing a Constitutional Crisis by declaring some emergency to circumvent the legislature for something so rudimentary.


A few years back during the last government shut down, our family was hit far harder than most people. Since my husband was in the Reserves and sequestration was in effect, finance people were considered non-essential and when they came back there was such a stack of paperwork to catch up with, his orders took about two months to process.
So we weren't paid for 2 MONTHS. I don't remember any threads about that one. There was a the VA thread (the VA was impacted for similar reasons) and I mentioned the problem but no one seemed to take an interest.

QUOTE
Do Italians have their military and economic interest in ANY other place other than Italy? Hmmm??

No, they have us there, at their behest, to defend them.
We have security commitments around the globe because nations (like Italy) ask us to defend them. This is because they see security threats.

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post Feb 16 2019, 11:01 PM
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I'll have another reply next week sometime when I have the time to write more than a couple sentences and I have access to a reliable internet connection again. It seems that this is evolving into an interesting debate.
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droop224
post Feb 17 2019, 12:48 AM
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Currently we have agents watching a thousand miles worth of an area with NO wall. Which is easier?
mmmm… don't know and don't care. Bottom line is the wall will be circumvented. The wall will deter.
QUOTE
A few years back during the last government shut down, our family was hit far harder than most people. Since my husband was in the Reserves and sequestration was in effect, finance people were considered non-essential and when they came back there was such a stack of paperwork to catch up with, his orders took about two months to process.
So we weren't paid for 2 MONTHS. I don't remember any threads about that one. There was a the VA thread (the VA was impacted for similar reasons) and I mentioned the problem but no one seemed to take an interest.
I'm sorry about that I really am. But why can't we be honest about this: Our national stance protects the military: Everyone pretends to drink the Kool-Aid, they always get an exception. I know, I know, they are protecting our freedom. But government workers, its one party that keeps taking a crap on them. Freezing their pay. Won't give them raises that match inflation. Quick to furlough or threaten furlough. The Republican party DOGS our civilian employees and the conservative constituency is FINE with it. Sorry your family got caught in the crossfire. but it reminds me of what this one conservative I play frisbee said to me(I swear its a true story). He goes "Man I hope this furlough ends" I go "yeah me too" He goes "Normally I don't care about this stuff like this but my son is in the coast guard, he just got a new baby ad just moved in to a new home..." I just smiled and said jokingly, "Oh I see... normally you could care less about the hardship families would have to go through but since your son affected..." "Naw, Naw, Naw I'm not saying that" he says real defensively. I just smile and nod my head "I know man... i'm just teasing you, giving you a hard time." But deep down Mrs P, you know what I am thinking. I'm thinking "It is like that, that's exactly how it is!"
And I don't blame the politicians like most liberals... I feel as always the problem resides in the conservative constituency. They never cease to amaze me on how easy they take craps on other human beings, even when I think I am numb to it, there they go again.

QUOTE
No, they have us there, at their behest, to defend them.
We have security commitments around the globe because nations (like Italy) ask us to defend them. This is because they see security threats.
What?!?!? I know you know better. They have both economic interest and military personnel outside the borders of Italy. Do I need to provide the links or did you misunderstand what I was asking?
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Feb 18 2019, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 16 2019, 07:48 PM) *
mmmm… don't know and don't care. Bottom line is the wall will be circumvented. The wall will deter.


It saves resources to put up a portion of the wall to be "circumvented". Nothing is infallible...not even a bank vault. Maybe they shouldn't use those.

QUOTE
I'm sorry about that I really am. But why can't we be honest about this: Our national stance protects the military: Everyone pretends to drink the Kool-Aid, they always get an exception.

I just explained above we weren't paid for two months. That was the military (Reservists). Depends on the pool. There are ARTs (these are like standard government employees that punch in a ticket each day), TRs (traditional reservists), and folks who are on active duty orders and considered active duty (like my spouse was for the last two years).
We also had contractors (mostly maintenance, because reserve bases don't have much in the way of support features, but as mentioned finance fell under that too).

It's touching that folks are so concerned about government and military this time around, but as mentioned I was there the last time and folks weren't so concerned. Where were those pure bleeding hearts, surely only concerned about the wellbeing of the people?
Things that make you go hm.

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post Feb 19 2019, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs P.)
It saves resources to put up a portion of the wall to be "circumvented". Nothing is infallible...not even a bank vault. Maybe they shouldn't use those.


LOL No, it costs resources to put up wall. But don't get it twisted, I personally don't care about the wall, the fence, the barricade being built or not being built. Its not an emergency though. Not for me. I'm brown. I'm a person of color. mrsparkle.gif I'm not afraid of the infinite invasion of Latinos that has set conservatives running wild! Bu the fact that you are comparing the Wall to bank vaults does make me chuckle.

QUOTE
I just explained above we weren't paid for two months. That was the military (Reservists). Depends on the pool. There are ARTs (these are like standard government employees that punch in a ticket each day), TRs (traditional reservists), and folks who are on active duty orders and considered active duty (like my spouse was for the last two years).
We also had contractors (mostly maintenance, because reserve bases don't have much in the way of support features, but as mentioned finance fell under that too).

1. I said, I'm sorry your family got caught in the crossfire.
2. I don't know your personal situation and its not about your personal situation. However, the furlough was 2 weeks and some days. ALSO Active duty DOD personnel were getting paid. If you fell into some weird pocket of circumstance in some reserve unit at some command overseas at some weird point of time that cause your personal strife, again, I'm sorry. That's not the point.

QUOTE
It's touching that folks are so concerned about government and military this time around, but as mentioned I was there the last time and folks weren't so concerned. Where were those pure bleeding hearts, surely only concerned about the wellbeing of the people?
Over here... on the left. Isnt that where all the "bleeding hearts" are? On the left? Bleeding heart liberals, isn't that the conservative slur for us? I don't mind it personally. thumbsup.gif

You know who didin't care and still doesn't?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRDsG9tJg0A
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