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> As Republican leaders jump off the Trump train, The question is - why now?
Dingo
post Oct 11 2016, 09:18 PM
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I've always considered George Wills the serious house intellectual of the republican party. Well he has been an opponent of Trump, big time, since the beginning of his candidacy. Now he has a question to those republican leaders who belatedly are abandoning their endorsements - what have they discovered about Donald that they didn't know before and why do these "locker room" revelations weigh more heavily than his other bizarre remarks which have more world shaking implications?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4409...-clinton-debate

QUOTE
The St. Louis festival of snarls was preceded by the release of a tape that merely provided redundant evidence of what Trump is like when he is being his boisterous self. Nevertheless, the tape sent various Republicans, who until then had discovered nothing to disqualify Trump from the presidency, into paroxysms of theatrical, tactical, and synthetic dismay.

Again, the tape revealed nothing about this arrested-development adolescent that today's righteously recoiling Republicans either did not already know or had no excuse for not knowing. Before the tape reminded the pathologically forgetful of Trump's feral appetites and deranged sense of entitlement, the staid Economist magazine, holding the subject of Trump at arms-length like a soiled sock, reminded readers of this: When Mr. Trump divorced the first of his three wives, Ivana, he let the New York tabloids know that one reason for the separation was that her breast implants felt all wrong.

His sexual loutishness is a sufficient reason for defeating him, but it is far down a long list of sufficient reasons. But if it rather than, say, his enthusiasm for torture even if it doesn't work, or his ignorance of the nuclear triad is required to prompt some Republicans to have second thoughts about him, so be it.


Questions for discussion:
Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?

This post has been edited by Dingo: Oct 11 2016, 09:25 PM
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Hobbes
post Oct 11 2016, 09:57 PM
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Questions for discussion:
Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

No. I'm not even sure they really tell us anything at all...it all happened quite a while ago.

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

Definitely not. Never really are, in politics. It's a political calculation, and I think a miscalculation---it will cost them as many votes as it saves them, or more.

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?

No. Many of them have stated as much. Are those sticking with Hillary endorsing her various controversial actions? No. This is a difference that Republicans need to grasp. In situations like this, Democrats tend to stick together, Republicans don't.


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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 11 2016, 10:02 PM
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Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

No.
This is the EXACT product they were buying.

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

No.
But I'll add, I also doubt that a good portion of the ones who never endorsed him are sincere about their "outrage".
They're politicians and they'd written this year off as a loss. So, they were covering their future positions early.

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?

As South Park would parody, we have a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. There is no one else.
So pick the issues that are most important to you and vote accordingly.
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akaCG
post Oct 12 2016, 01:44 AM
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Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

I'm afraid the answer to the above question, to ever so slightly paraphrase a former Democratic President who might be about to become our nation's first First ... cough ... cough! ... gag ... COUGH!!! ... please excuse me, everyone ... cough! ... sorry, bear with me ... burp ... Gentleman, ...

... depends on your definition of what "us" is.

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

See "Hobbes"'s answer.

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?

Nope.

==================================================

QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 11 2016, 06:02 PM) *
...
... we have a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. ...
...

My choice in regards to describing/depicting said choice, while quite similar, is one that avoids any references to body parts/bodily functions:

It's a choice between Deplorable and Despicable.

I'm voting Deplorable. Not because I like Deplorable, but because I loathe Despicable.

QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 11 2016, 06:02 PM) *
...
So pick the issues that are most important to you and vote accordingly.

Fully agree. Such an issue, for me, is ... SCOTUS.

After all, ...

Our next President will, in all likelihood, be getting at least 2, perhaps 3, SC Justices installed.

Which type of SC Justice (especially in regards to our Constitution's First Amendment), dear mothers and fathers of SONS, would you prefer?

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Oct 12 2016, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 11 2016, 08:44 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 11 2016, 06:02 PM) *
...
So pick the issues that are most important to you and vote accordingly.

Fully agree. Such an issue, for me, is ... SCOTUS.

After all, ...

Our next President will, in all likelihood, be getting at least 2, perhaps 3, SC Justices installed.

Which type of SC Justice (especially in regards to our Constitution's First Amendment), dear mothers and fathers of SONS, would you prefer?


If I want to see lots of business interests renting out the Lincoln bedroom and our future trade agreements, weapons and tech transfers, determined by who pays...which one should I pick?
Should I go for the tried and true or the guy with a potty mouth?

Edited to add:
Remember when Obama funded the solar industry, and it went bust and the masses booed? What actually happened is, most of the solar panel industries around the world (with the exception of China) went bust. China subsidized its industry so much it had an ipso facto world monopoly because no one could compete. DARPA (good ol' USA military tech) actually came up with the best.
The reason it all went bust: Our trade agreements with China. This Trump has mentioned changing. Maybe he will, maybe he won't but I already know what Hillary is going to do.

Edited again to add: and then there is her brilliant foreign policy idea of arming the Syrian rebels. Yeah that's never bit us before. And shooting down Russian jets. It's going to be beautiful what could possibly go wrong?

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Oct 12 2016, 02:51 PM
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Hobbes
post Oct 12 2016, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 11 2016, 08:44 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 11 2016, 06:02 PM) *
...
So pick the issues that are most important to you and vote accordingly.

Fully agree. Such an issue, for me, is ... SCOTUS.

After all, ...

Our next President will, in all likelihood, be getting at least 2, perhaps 3, SC Justices installed.

Which type of SC Justice (especially in regards to our Constitution's First Amendment), dear mothers and fathers of SONS, would you prefer?


I think this is THE real issue this election. For both sides. Whatever either does as President will be fleeting, and probably not all that different. Just saw an article, for example, stating that their two tax plans are, actually, almost identical. BUT the impact they will have on SCOTUS will be quite large (at least 1, but perhaps several) SCJ's will be put on the court during their term(s). That will have a much longer, and long lasting, impact on the country.

Hillary hasn't really spent much time on this. Trump should.

I also think the best thing Trump could do would be to start indicating who would be in his Cabinet. He keeps talking about getting great people, and I actually thinks he wants to...but Who? Just as picking Pence as his running mate was a smart decision, showing that there would be balances in his cabinet that people like would also be a tremendous boost for him.

To carry forward Akacg's thoughts....Trump might be despicable, but who would his minions be?

I think the final month of the contest will be interesting. These news leaks seem planned, to me. That video of Trump has been out there for a long time, for example...but released just a couple days before a debate? It looks like Trump is also going to really ratchet up pointing out all the various issues around Hillary. The later these things get put out there, the less time the other side has to counter. It's going to get even uglier, which is perhaps fitting, given the two candidates we have.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 13 2016, 06:49 PM
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Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

Not for people who have been paying attention, and that includes a lot of current Trump supporters. It's just that these uneducated white men hate Clinton a lot more than anything. By uneducated, I am of course referring to higher education.

The reminder might have driven some, maybe a lot of, educated, suburban white women away. Residual hatred of former President Clinton for his sexual antics seems to be keeping some on board. So I guess being a sexual predator is okay if you're Republican.

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

Fake outrage has been their act ever since they got into politics. Now it's really hard for that to work to their advantage, so you see the frantic running around a sinking ship trying to find something that might float.

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?

If it's the view that Election Day is the 28th of November, let them twist in the wind and maybe snag a clue. But by the very nature of endorsement, a person or organization indicates that the candidate's basic philosophies are acceptable and preferred over those of the other candidates in competition for the same political position.

I'm just wondering how much faith those voting for Trump have that his philosophies, whatever they might be on a particular day, do indeed mesh with conservative philosophies of the GOP. Seems like a very big gamble to me, considering his lack of definition over his seven decades on Earth.

But he has very little time to fix things for the GOP and zero desire to do so. If I were a Republican, I'd also throw my vote toward the Party platform, hold my nose, and jump down the rabbit hole. Or write in somebody else like McCain has said he might do. While it's hard to imagine me voting Republican, it's a sure thing I'd never vote for Trump. Not because he has exploited and abused women along the way, but because he's a diminutive tyrant.

I'd not want to carry that guilt for having inflated him into a giant dictator. But he won't win, so we win again because democracy.

*

Wikileaks has thrown some more hacked email out there. Trouble is, there's now high doubt that they're real, as in not doctored or entirely fabricated. The written electronic word is now receiving the skepticism that the written word has always had. Well, since the Age of Enlightenment and the resulting increase in literacy.

It is interesting that the press and a lot of other people gave too much credence to electronic writing, as if there were some Master Program in the nets that made people suddenly honest. Seems that as tech understanding increased, so did the doubt that should have been there right away. But then people are still human. Razzle-dazzle them with enough bull, and they'll trade a perfectly good cow for magic beans. Or let off a murderess (Chicago musical).

Both reached for the pussy!
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Trouble
post Oct 13 2016, 07:57 PM
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Do the latest "locker room" recordings tell us anything we didn't already know about Donald Trump?

Not as much as much as you might think. Parity would entail bringing Bill's past honeypot transgressions to light and contrasting to who went beyond talk. Once you make a light of something a candidate may or may not have said years ago you see the attempt for what it is, an attempt at misdirection.

Do you feel the republican leaders who are now abandoning their endorsement for Trump are sincere in their outrage?

Doubtful at best. The media has done a terrible job of comparing the candidates this election cycle. What happens behind closed doors is not privy to the electorate. What is true today may not be true tomorrow simply through the speed of circumstance and horsetrading of favours on various issues.

Further, this cycle is different as both parties are in flail mode trying to either contain their candidates or obstruct others from occupying power. Hence, identifying tension between this candidate and the party misses the larger issue, the genesis or birth of a third party - with or without Mr. Trump.

Do you feel those who stick with Trump are in effect endorsing his views?
No more or less than any other candidate.
I will say making the decision to pull support by taking an off remark made years ago to what is now goosed with sensational spin while letting social media be the deciding factor is to openly accept tabloid journalism.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 14 2016, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Oct 13 2016, 03:57 PM) *
Further, this cycle is different as both parties are in flail mode trying to either contain their candidates or obstruct others from occupying power. Hence, identifying tension between this candidate and the party misses the larger issue, the genesis or birth of a third party - with or without Mr. Trump.

The generation of a third party is most certainly not in the cards this election season, nor will it be for several seasons to come.

The reason is pretty obvious: There is no third party out there with enough attraction to make a difference. The last time this became near to possible was with Ross Perot, and that brought us Bill Clinton. The last time a third party candidate spoiled a close election was in 2000, and we got GWB.

Nope, those two outcomes turned off the electorate from third parties--Perot on the conservative side, and Nader on the liberal side. Where does Johnson sit on this, the alternative for those who can't figure it out that this is a fight between an effective politician and a Putin wannabee?

However, the GOP is about to splinter apart in earnest, not just showing lots of stress cracks. It won't be very simple, either. I'm expecting lots of fringe parties to develop rather than the creation of a Bull Moose-like third. There will be one for evangelicals, one for white supremacists, one for Wall Street moguls, one for women against PP, one for each hunk of rock that flies out from the explosion.

By the laws of political gravity, a viable second party will develop from the rubble, but it will take lots of time. Along with this, the Information Age will have unfolded enough that a new sort of conservative thought will have a chance to develop. The old stuff has failed enough times that it has lost its ability to bring on another Reagan, let alone a Trump.

So it's going to be another Clinton, then a progression of progressives in a progressive era. The age of reactionary politics is now over, which had to happen as the older generations died out. Will it be all hearts and flowers and milk and honey and health care and budget surpluses and more peace than war?

We're human, so of course not. That'd be just too boring.
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