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> Shooting down of MH17, What should U.S. response be?
Hobbes
post Jul 17 2014, 11:16 PM
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Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jul 18 2014, 12:06 AM
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Gray Seal
post Sep 30 2018, 05:12 PM
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I do think this hydra is alive and doing well. It could be proven with a audit of the FED and public availability of all money spent by the government. We do not know, because of the secrecy. The secrecy is not just an idea. It is in the "open" that such information is secret.

I guess if you have faith in your elected officials there is no need to question.

It is the United States. It is the most good and free country. No need to look behind the curtain. Move along.

------

If the Ford/Kavanaugh hearing has any benefit it is the exposure of who our Senators are. They are a bunch of politically driven ignorants who care less about truth and even less about people. They care about "what is in it for me?"

Just look at the votes. Party line. 'Just gotta love those parties! They are swell. No need to look behind the curtain. Move along.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 30 2018, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 30 2018, 12:12 PM) *
I guess if you have faith in your elected officials there is no need to question.


Faith isn't the word for it...I would say I'm aware enough to know that "government" is not a single entity but vast...and in this case such subterfuge (much like 911) would require so much collaboration between different agencies and governments it would be impossible to pull off. Air travel is very well monitored and heavily regulated.

QUOTE
If the Ford/Kavanaugh hearing has any benefit it is the exposure of who our Senators are. They are a bunch of politically driven ignorants who care less about truth and even less about people. They care about "what is in it for me?"


No argument there.
I've no doubt some of the Senators questioning Kavanaugh about his highschool activities 35 years ago were likely snorting a line of coke off a hooker's backside last week.

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Hobbes
post Sep 30 2018, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 30 2018, 11:12 AM) *
I do think this hydra is alive and doing well. It could be proven with a audit of the FED and public availability of all money spent by the government. We do not know, because of the secrecy. The secrecy is not just an idea. It is in the "open" that such information is secret.

I guess if you have faith in your elected officials there is no need to question.

It is the United States. It is the most good and free country. No need to look behind the curtain. Move along.


Questioning is fine. Simply discarding what they say despite all evidence to the contrary is, well, none on the adjectives are flattering. Simply accepting what Russia says as fact, when they have a LONG and gloirous hisotry of fabrication, and all sorts of reasons to lie in this particular instansce? Well, none of those adjectives are flattering, either.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Sep 30 2018, 11:27 PM
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Gray Seal
post Oct 1 2018, 03:01 PM
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Hobbes, it makes no sense to say all evidence points one way when I provided a link recently with evidence that the attack came from Ukraine. Simply accepting Russia is guilty when there is lack of evidence to make any conclusion is telling. I do not accept what either has said as fact. Evidence is contrary. Why would anyone accept one version over another simply based upon preconceptions when strong political motivations are evident? It does not fly with me that only one side of this is misleading and the other is as pure as driven snow.

It is not ever a good idea to jump to conclusions for what you want to be true. It is not ever a good idea to reach a conclusion based on prejudice. You can not pick and choose what evidence you want to examine. You can not disregard evidence as if it does not exist because it does not fit the narrative you want to believe is true.
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Hobbes
post Oct 1 2018, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Oct 1 2018, 09:01 AM) *
It does not fly with me that only one side of this is misleading and the other is as pure as driven snow.


Yet that is EXACTLY your position on this.

QUOTE
It is not ever a good idea to jump to conclusions for what you want to be true. It is not ever a good idea to reach a conclusion based on prejudice. You can not pick and choose what evidence you want to examine. You can not disregard evidence as if it does not exist because it does not fit the narrative you want to believe is true.


Agree! yet that is exactly what you are doing.


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Gray Seal
post Oct 1 2018, 05:54 PM
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I will restate my position on MH17. I do not know what happened. There is no compelling evidence to make definite conclusions.

I have been arguing against making conclusions when there is insufficient evidence. Accusations are not evidence.

We have suspect operators with the current Ukraine government and the Russian government. We can not depend upon either to be good players.
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droop224
post Oct 2 2018, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal)
I will restate my position on MH17. I do not know what happened. There is no compelling evidence to make definite conclusions.
State it to your heart's content. What is heard when you do not speak pro-American rhetoric is anti-American rhetoric. Trust me, I know.

I'll simply reiterate your statement and add that there is a clear difference between either side could be lying or either side could be telling the truth and saying we should disregard Western propaganda and accept Russian propaganda.

QUOTE(Hobbes)
You left out Russian weapons being used directly in the Ukraine, when they weren't supposed to be. Which the West could then use as leverage, getting them to pull those out. Which, ironically, would achieve the end GS would desire, even though he is adamantly against it. (ie, less foreign power involvement in the Ukraine). Conversely, the Russians have every reason to lie, to keep their weapons and support present there, to extend the conflict..yet that is the version GS supports.


Why are you for it? Let's start there? The Ukrainian usurped the rightfully elected government. Those people that supported that government no longer want to be governed by the usurpers. (not propaganda, my own research as far as looking at what their Constitution said at the time) Russians are giving support to ethnic Russians that had their government stolen from them. I don't care one way or the other if Russia decides to get involved. What i can't understand is why any freedom loving American\Westerner would want to see the usurping Ukrainians government force their will on human beings that had their government betrayed and stripped from them. Can you help me with that Hobbes, what do we want from your POV and WHY do we want it? Or do you care, is it simply enough that our side wants it and you are a team player.

QUOTE(Mrs P)
Therein lies the conspiracy theory hydra (which I was referring to with Droop).
Anything and everything can be explained away as the US either fabricating and/or placing (secret of course) pressure to force compliance.
There's no end. Lop off one end, here comes another.
By product of secrecy Mrs P. It's really just that simple. Conspiracies happen, i think you would acknowledge that. When you are "team spirit" every conspiracy and secret is necessary for the public good. I get that, i really do. I'm sure there are secrets are for the public good or to protect operation and I'm sure some secrets are just maneuvers of power from stations above my lowly head.

This post has been edited by droop224: Oct 2 2018, 02:51 PM
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Hobbes
post Oct 2 2018, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Oct 1 2018, 11:54 AM) *
I will restate my position on MH17. I do not know what happened. There is no compelling evidence to make definite conclusions.
I have been arguing against making conclusions when there is insufficient evidence. Accusations are not evidence.


Read through your replies in this thread. You consistently state the Russians are telling the truth, and everyone else is lying. You have not been arguing against making conclusions, you CLEARLY have already made them. And that conclusion is that the West is lying and Russia is telling the truth.

QUOTE(droop)
State it to your heart's content. What is heard when you do not speak pro-American rhetoric is anti-American rhetoric. Trust me, I know.


Ya, never mind that we have an entire thread full of evidence to the contrary.

QUOTE
I'll simply reiterate your statement and add that there is a clear difference between either side could be lying or either side could be telling the truth and saying we should disregard Western propaganda and accept Russian propaganda.


Yes, there is indeed. and GS has been doing the latter throughout this thread. Simply reread his post on the latest Russian statements, and you can CLEARLY see that.

QUOTE
Why are you for it? Let's start there?


Why am I for what? If we're going to start 'there', at least tell us where 'there' is. I suspect this is an example of exactly what you stipulate in your opening comment, only in reverse. But at least take the covers off the specific strawman being applied.
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Gray Seal
post Oct 2 2018, 05:38 PM
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The english language is prone to being imprecise. Words and sentences can be taken to mean different things. We all aim to be as precise as we can. It is a continual learning process, for myself, to communicate simply, clearly, and correctly.

I hoped my post #166 is simple and clear. I guess it is still not up to standards. I am not sure how it can be interpreted to be white and black support of Russia. I remain flummoxed.
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droop224
post Oct 2 2018, 06:03 PM
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Hobbes

Maybe, he is backtracking... or maybe he present the "con"-side to the "pro"-side too forcefully. I can not read gray seal mind anymore than i can read yours. I can see he clearly and repeatedly has made the argument that he doesn't understand how a person could believe either side.

I've looked at Gray Seal argument and that's how they read to me. Somehow that's not how it is reading to you... or maybe your argument is "that's not what he was saying earlier he changed his tune". I'm not his savior, there will be no cape on Droop coming to the rescue, I'll leave that to you two from here on out.

QUOTE
Why am I for what? If we're going to start 'there', at least tell us where 'there' is. I suspect this is an example of exactly what you stipulate in your opening comment, only in reverse. But at least take the covers off the specific strawman being applied.
Well I'll do you one better lets not even create a strawman.

You said:
QUOTE
You left out Russian weapons being used directly in the Ukraine, when they weren't supposed to be. Which the West could then use as leverage, getting them to pull those out. Which, ironically, would achieve the end GS would desire, even though he is adamantly against it. (ie, less foreign power involvement in the Ukraine).
To me, this implied you were against Russia helping the rebels and for the usurping Ukranian government to be able to more quickly destroy the "rebels" in Donetsk and other Eastern regions?

Am I incorrect? If I am incorrect, tell me what you are for and what you are against and why. Then we don't have to deal with a strawman. Leave it outside with the crows.

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Hobbes
post Oct 3 2018, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Oct 2 2018, 11:38 AM) *
The english language is prone to being imprecise. Words and sentences can be taken to mean different things. We all aim to be as precise as we can. It is a continual learning process, for myself, to communicate simply, clearly, and correctly.

I hoped my post #166 is simple and clear.


It is and fair enough. There have been various statements you've made elsewhere which would give a different impression, but I'll take this at face value. In which case I don't think we are in any disagreement.


QUOTE
QUOTE
Why am I for what? If we're going to start 'there', at least tell us where 'there' is. I suspect this is an example of exactly what you stipulate in your opening comment, only in reverse. But at least take the covers off the specific strawman being applied.
Well I'll do you one better lets not even create a strawman.

You said:
QUOTE
You left out Russian weapons being used directly in the Ukraine, when they weren't supposed to be. Which the West could then use as leverage, getting them to pull those out. Which, ironically, would achieve the end GS would desire, even though he is adamantly against it. (ie, less foreign power involvement in the Ukraine).
To me, this implied you were against Russia helping the rebels and for the usurping Ukranian government to be able to more quickly destroy the "rebels" in Donetsk and other Eastern regions?

Am I incorrect? If I am incorrect, tell me what you are for and what you are against and why. Then we don't have to deal with a strawman. Leave it outside with the crows.


What I am for or against wasn't relevant to the response. I was simply indicating, as I often do, various factors involved which weren't being included..and what the impact of including those factors would likely be.

Am I against Russian support of the rebels? Militarily...yes. Russia has a clearly stated strategy of reacquiring all the territory they lost from the Soviet Union, something that the US and pretty much the rest of the world should be against. This led to them stirring up tensions there, to create an opening for them to get involved militarily. Are there cultural and ethnic issues there? Yes. But then that is exactly what Hitler said when invading Czechoslovakia, which led to WWII. So, anyone not in favor of WWIII should be concerned about that. It also, as I said in the post, escalates an issue increasing the likelihood for that happening from the West...marching things farther down that path. Containing that issue, and others like it around the globe, is in most people's favor.

I gather you support the rebels? And hence dislike the MH17 report conclusions?
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droop224
post Oct 3 2018, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE(hobbes)
What I am for or against wasn't relevant to the response. I was simply indicating, as I often do, various factors involved which weren't being included..and what the impact of including those factors would likely be.
If you say so.
QUOTE
Am I against Russian support of the rebels? Militarily...yes. Russia has a clearly stated strategy of reacquiring all the territory they lost from the Soviet Union, something that the US and pretty much the rest of the world should be against. This led to them stirring up tensions there, to create an opening for them to get involved militarily.
So its Russia fault that the West and Ukrainian oligarchs organized a Coup on an Russian friendly government? Alright, again, if thats what you want to believe. That being said there was a coup and you seem to support the oppressors over the oppressed and I'm not sure how you find yourself in that position.

QUOTE
Are there cultural and ethnic issues there? Yes. But then that is exactly what Hitler said when invading Czechoslovakia, which led to WWII. So, anyone not in favor of WWIII should be concerned about that. It also, as I said in the post, escalates an issue increasing the likelihood for that happening from the West...marching things farther down that path. Containing that issue, and others like it around the globe, is in most people's favor.
I'm confused who is it that can't control their appetite the Russians or the West? I mean if we don't support the Coup, the Coup doesn't happen and Ukrainian government belongs to all the people.
QUOTE
I gather you support the rebels? And hence dislike the MH17 report conclusions?
In a manner, yes to the first question, indifferent to the second. MH17 is about propaganda for Western Democracy uneduccated populace, A.K.A "us". It has no real bearing on the circumstances of the conflict. I'm loyal to my ideals of equality and justice. In this case the rebels represent the oppressed. I can't stand Trump, i would never support a Coup on the President. He was elected. Same case there. The government exists at the consent of the governed (sound familiar). I'd accept this as a civil war if some region wanted to break away because they didn't like the elected government. But when there is a coup, well its not a civil war to break away. Your lawful government was stolen, your country is broke, it should be your natural right to determine a new government.
I mean i don't know if the Rebels are the type of people I would support, i don't know their politics. But in this situation, i admit that the "just" course after overthrowing a rightfully elected government would be to allow geographical areas that are heavily populated with opposition to separate.
I think i answered your questions, here are a couple from me to you so i don't assume.

Do you understand that the Ukrainians are killing human beings in order to make them submit to the current government? Are Russians killing Ukrainians trying to make them submit?


Moral Compass.

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Hobbes
post Oct 3 2018, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 2 2018, 10:19 PM) *

Moral Compass.


And....we're back to this again. Which, as I indicated previously, pretty much removes the incentive to discuss So...I won't
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droop224
post Oct 3 2018, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Oct 3 2018, 04:33 PM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Oct 2 2018, 10:19 PM) *

Moral Compass.


And....we're back to this again. Which, as I indicated previously, pretty much removes the incentive to discuss So...I won't

I completely understand and it speaks volumes without you writing another word!! I, personally, could not have my political views so divorced from my morals and ethics that the mere mention of the words "moral compass" destroys my incentive to discuss my political views.
It speaks volumes about your political views on this issue.
Human beings are once again dying by the thousands, we are siding with the killers. Let the "rebels" live freely.

And please, just in case you were thinking it... I am not calling you evil, i am not saying you have no morality. I am saying that the ethics and morality of supposed American values such as Justice, Freedom, and Equality are not aligned with having a political position of supporting Ukraine. In the case of Ukraine there was a coup #fact They usurped their government #fact and now they are killing the people by the thousands in an attempt to force them into submission to recognize a new Ukrainian government supported by the West #fact. Check that alignment... its pushing a little too much to the right. thumbsup.gif
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