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> Aurora, Loughner, Iran and self defense, who, exactly has a right to defend themselves?
EuroBlack
post Oct 26 2012, 01:58 AM
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Now, I was reading an interesting article about Iranian youth, 16-18, who got lessons in shooting guns .... at school!
In principle I am against that sort of thing, but then again, Iranians are taught that their country is under constant threat, that they might be invaded everyday now, so its good that they learn to defend themselves.
Of course, the OTHER TWO nations that have this over-the-top "circle-the-wagons"-image of themselves are Israel and Red-state Teaparty Land.

The other amazing thing in that article was that lessons on politics were a necessary counterweight to all the Western media's wall-to-wall negative portrayal of Iran.
Iranian youth has access to Western media and it seems to have near brainwashed them into believing that Iran was indeed "evil".

This all prompted the following questions to me, which I want to share with the honourable learned panel.

1. If Israel has a right to a nuclear self-defense, why doesn't Iran have that same right, in the eyes of almost every American? Isn't that a case of big fat hypocrisy?
2. Is this because Americans see Israel as an innately good set of people and Iranians as inherently evil?
3. Won't mutually assured nuclear destruction assure us of MORE peace in the middle east, rather than less? It worked in the Cold War.
4. Iranians know that Israel has at least one or two nuclear-armed submarines, which will ensure destruction of their nation if they ever nuclearly attack Israel. Are they just so mentally unstable that they will try to nuke Israel anyway? And, is it likely that the Shia Iranians, who are NOT Arabs will sacrifice themselves in this fashion, on the behalf of a bunch of Sunni ARABS? (I know, I know a part of war is demonizing the enemy in such ways that they seem capable of highly irrational actions, but still ....)
5. Why is the democracy in Israel viewed as 'better' than the Iranian one, when the Israeli foreign policy is constant: killing as much Palestinians/Muslims as possible, no matter which party is in power?
6. Are Iranian high school shooting lessons support for the NRA's model of "more guns in society is good for everyone" especially the Christina-Taylor Greens among us? Or the complete opposite of that? In other words, can the pro-gun lobby now say: Hey we need MORE guns in society, even Iranian high school kids get governmental approved, tax payer funded guns, so we should too!"
If you say yes: Is Iran a good model for any old stuff that is done in the USA?

This post has been edited by EuroBlack: Oct 26 2012, 02:05 AM
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Bikerdad
post Oct 26 2012, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE(EuroBlack @ Oct 25 2012, 07:58 PM) *
Now, I was reading an interesting article about Iranian youth, 16-18, who got lessons in shooting guns .... at school!
In principle I am against that sort of thing, but then again, Iranians are taught that their country is under constant threat, that they might be invaded everyday now, so its good that they learn to defend themselves.
Of course, the OTHER TWO nations that have this over-the-top "circle-the-wagons"-image of themselves are Israel

I refer you to this simple and deceptive headline, along with the two opening paragraphs..

QUOTE
Four Palestinian Militants Killed in Israeli Airstrikes
JERUSALEM A surge in violence on Wednesday across the Israel-Gaza border prompted strong warnings from Israeli leaders that if pushed, Israel would act more forcefully against militants in Gaza, the Palestinian coastal enclave.

Palestinian militants fired more than 60 rockets from Gaza into southern Israel overnight and early Wednesday, hitting several houses and wounding three Thai workers, two critically, in an Israeli border community, according to the Israeli military. Israel carried out several airstrikes against rocket-launching squads, killing four militants, Palestinian officials said. Three of the four belonged to Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza
That's from today's New York Times. I can't imagine why the Isrealis might have a "circle the wagons" mentality, what with rockets being lobbed at them, being attacked multiple times by their neighboring countries from the day the modern country of Israel was formed, etc.

Contrast that to Iran, please. Explain how Iran's security situation is comparable.

QUOTE
and Red-state Teaparty Land.
rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Iranian youth has access to Western media and it seems to have near brainwashed them into believing that Iran was indeed "evil".
Iran is not evil. The regime is evil.

1. If Israel has a right to a nuclear self-defense, why doesn't Iran have that same right, in the eyes of almost every American? Isn't that a case of big fat hypocrisy? Israel has reportedly had nuclear weapons for decades. They have neither threatened any of their neighbors with them, nor, in point of fact, threatened to destroy any of their neighbors. Iran, on the other hand, has repeatedly promised to destroy Israel, who, btw, doesn't even share a border with them. Iran is one of the very few countries that has used Weapons of Mass Destruction in combat since World War Two. In short, nobody believes that Iranian usage of nuclear weapons would be purely defensive. Nobody.

2. Is this because Americans see Israel as an innately good set of people and Iranians as inherently evil?
No, it's because a} Israel is a real democracy, and b} the Iranian regime is evil. Most Americans don't give much thought to the Iranian people being evil, good, or anything else.

3. Won't mutually assured nuclear destruction assure us of MORE peace in the middle east, rather than less? It worked in the Cold War. It did work, although it was a close thing. You may want to revisit the peacenik arguments during the Cold War though. The reason why MAD worked is because the Soviet and American leadership were rational. What cause for confidence that the Iranian leadership will be rational is there, especially in light of the fact that their society prolifically produces suicide bombers?

4. Iranians know that Israel has at least one or two nuclear-armed submarines, which will ensure destruction of their nation if they ever nuclearly attack Israel. Are they just so mentally unstable that they will try to nuke Israel anyway? And, is it likely that the Shia Iranians, who are NOT Arabs will sacrifice themselves in this fashion, on the behalf of a bunch of Sunni ARABS? (I know, I know a part of war is demonizing the enemy in such ways that they seem capable of highly irrational actions, but still ....) The leadership may very well be that unstable. What is their motiviation for devoting the resources they already have to harming Israel? Since your assessment of thei low likelihood of "Shia Iranians helping Sunni Arabs" as motive is fairly accurate, yet there they are, still working to hurt Israel, there must be a different motivation. What is it? Israel has no bordes with Iran. Israel has no oil for Iran to seize. Simply put, why does Iran have such a bone in it's teeth regarding Israel?

5. Why is the democracy in Israel viewed as 'better' than the Iranian one, when the Israeli foreign policy is constant: killing as much Palestinians/Muslims as possible, no matter which party is in power? Are you REALLY this ignorant of modern military reality? Israel has repeatedly defeated attacking Arab armies. And yet, they seem to be unable to kill Palestinians/Muslims fast enough to prevent the Palestinian "refugee" population from increasing four fold? Really?

6. Are Iranian high school shooting lessons support for the NRA's model of "more guns in society is good for everyone" especially the Christina-Taylor Greens among us? The Iranian activity neither supports nor opposes the NRA's model. Teaching individuals to shoot <> more guns in society, just as teaching people to cook <> more food in society. Are those Iranian whippersnappers being given guns and sent home with them? You don't know, but you do seem to be perfectly willing to assume that they are. Given the turmoil in Iran the last time they held elections, I seriously doubt the gov't is arming their populace. I invite you to prove otherwise.

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Jaime
post Oct 26 2012, 11:55 AM
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