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> Shooting down of MH17, What should U.S. response be?
Hobbes
post Jul 17 2014, 11:16 PM
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Today, another Malaysian 777 crashed, in Ukraine. All evidence indicates it was shot down, over separatist eastern Ukraine. We don't yet know who shot it down, or what equipment they used. So, an investigation is necessary, but I don't think it too early to discuss what the response should be, as responses have already been happening.

Putin's statement
Obama's first comments.
1. Assuming it was separatists that did it, what should U.S. response be? World response?
2. I'm not sure separatists would be capable of doing this. Even if they did capture a missile system from Ukraine, they probably wouldn't know how to use it (although this could be a symptom of that). So, the real possibility of Russians having done this, or being directly responsible for the people who did do it (many reports that they have brought mercenaries into the area). If Russia itself is directly implicated, how should the U.S. handle this?
3. To what degree should Malaysia Airlines be held responsible, for failing to avoid flying in this area?
4. What do you think of the responses from the U.S. and Putin so far? What do they say about how this will be played out?
5. What impact, if any, do you think this will have on the conflict in Ukraine?
6. Do you think the perpetrators of this will ever be brought to justice, as Malaysia is requesting? If so, will they be the real perpetrators, or just some scapegoats?

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 19 2017, 12:53 PM
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Has it really been 3 years?!? blink.gif

Thought I'd post an update on this one, since something new has come up. Don't see much reason to start a new thread even though this one is old....

The Joint investigation team

(Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine) have announced their decision to initiate domestic prosecutions in the Netherlands in relation to the incident.

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Gray Seal
post Sep 19 2018, 05:58 PM
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Here is an article which discusses evidence in the downing of Malaysian 777.

I am impressed by the information provided by Russia. It comes across as factual as opposed to tortured to fit a narrative.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 21 2018, 12:39 AM
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Up until this time, the Russian side had been shooting down all aircraft (the Ukrainians had air superiority so they didn't have to shoot anything down) on a regular basis.

So either:
1) The Russian side accidentally shot down this aircraft, thinking it was an enemy aircraft like the others....
or
2) The Ukrainians shot down an airliner (flying in a war zone they suggested everyone avoid) with an anti-aircraft missile they had up until now not used, on purpose...in the hope they could frame the Russians and make them look bad. They were so indiscrete that service members (who said this? I'd think they'd keep something like that on the DL but, heh word gets around, eh?) mentioned it casually over the radio....as often happens in these little capers.

Sorry, not buying it. Hanlons' razor applies.

Edited to add: I'm not sure how any of us could come to any conclusions on how "factual" ANY of this information is from our small vantage point.
If you are not guilty of a crime and have nothing to prove because no one is attempting to prosecute you for a crime, how much explaining are you going to do?
By contrast, if someone is attempting to hold you accountable for gross negligence you'll probably go through more CYA work.
It's no surprise that Russia has been more "forthcoming" with information (that unsurprisingly fits their narrative) here.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 21 2018, 01:29 PM
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droop224
post Sep 21 2018, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. P)
Edited to add: I'm not sure how any of us could come to any conclusions on how "factual" ANY of this information is from our small vantage point.
If you are not guilty of a crime and have nothing to prove because no one is attempting to prosecute you for a crime, how much explaining are you going to do?
Exactly, wait, what... If someone accuses you of a crime you didn't do you'll explain why you didn't do it, wouldn't you?? I mean if not then the opposite would be true, which is someone accuses you of a crime that you didn't do and you stay silent. In which case, to those who DON'T know, your silence would only serve as affirmation the accusation is true. You'd know the truth that it didn't happen, but you would also know, no one else knows that. That being said your first sentence and point is spot on for me. Who really know knows the truth.
I also think you did a decent job explaining the two possibilities. So my question is this. If option one is what happened why demonize Russia and the Eastern rebels? Is it not the war policy of most Western democracies, that killing civilians is "OK" (still not good) if its an accident when trying to defend yourself.

So
1. Ukraine did it and did so to use the incident as propaganda against Russia and the rebels or;2. The rebels mistakenly did it and we used the incident to propagandize our own citizens.
Either way, the incident will be used to mislead citizens of Western Democracies, the civil unrest will continue, thousands of human beings will continue to die, and our governments will not side with freedom and self determination, but rather with usurpers and America's best business interests. On this though.. it light support so i won't complain too much. Sorry rebels, your on your own.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 22 2018, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 21 2018, 09:57 AM) *
If someone accuses you of a crime you didn't do you'll explain why you didn't do it, wouldn't you??


Yes. In this case a multi-national investigation team was involved. So any ostensible "subterfuge" would require the direct participation of several nations, and the inspectors of those nations. It would take an extreme level of difficulty for the collaborative findings from the inspectors of multiple nations to support a single criminally nefarious, equivocal narrative to cover a war crime of mass proportions (as it would be if a passenger plane full of civilians were shot down for the express purpose of anti-Russian propaganda).
It just isn't practical...and that is an extreme understatement.
So again, I go with Hanlon's razor.

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Trouble
post Sep 23 2018, 04:24 AM
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The original recording had a sleepy translator that fell behind when it came to the digital format discussion but otherwise was watchable. The revised version has someone with a better grasp of english and was more to the point.

My issue was and still pertains to the disclosure of the radar data. I'm confident that American forces as well as at least one or two European countries were monitoring the situation that day. Disclosure on their part could either confirm or deny the Russian radar data. This would either confirm or deny the JIT's conclusion of the BUK's launch location of Kursk and we could all go about our day. The issue could have concluded either way years ago. The fact that it was not and allowed to linger does not bode well for the JIT's objectivity. That and the fact that Ukraine withheld air traffic controller data because it was allowed to be member of the steering committee boggles the mind.

With such important information it is hard to take what is this investigation seriously. I look at it this way. The JIT had a golden to opportunity to conclusively refute the Russian side of the information and blew it spectacularly. Further, if multiple parties had the same information and it was in opposition to the Russian radar data, the loss of face Russia would have suffered would be too tempting for anyone in the Pentagon to pass up. But it was passed up nonetheless.

One must come to the conclusion that the JIT's behaviour was either grossly incompetent or ideological. If ideology played a role then we must ask if the omissions were withheld to create confusion. What is omitted creates doubt and where there is doubt entire narratives can be maintained.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 23 2018, 01:33 PM
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Trouble, the JIT includes Malaysia. The victim. Do you honestly believe the actual victims would cover up for the "real" culprits? They have nothing to "prove" to you.
The opinion of you or I (or the rest of the ignorant masses) really isn't a factor on who should receive whatever information they want to receive.
This reminds me very much of the Truther movement. "Hey! This janitor says he smelled cordite!"
Remember after many months the first Russian claim was that the Ukrainians straifed the passenger plane with bullets from a fighter. And, much like the truthers, they had a "expert" who was some random passenger pilot tell his version based on monumental ignorance.

I don't really have time to watch the video...it's over 20 minutes long and I live up in the mountains where it is difficult to watch online videos.
Is there anything pertinent in particular I should listen to? If so, I'll scroll to that mark in time and watch a few minutes.
The first part they are talking about serial numbers....since i am not an expert on serial numbers I'm not sure how that is relevant.
They could claim anything. Every serial number might be a reference to a Doctor Seuss book for all I know.

QUOTE(Trouble @ Sep 22 2018, 11:24 PM) *
The JIT had a golden to opportunity to conclusively refute the Russian side of the information and blew it spectacularly. Further, if multiple parties had the same information and it was in opposition to the Russian radar data, the loss of face Russia would have suffered would be too tempting for anyone in the Pentagon to pass up. But it was passed up nonetheless.


If they revealed data (a security concern, but let's ignore that for now) how would you (or I or any of the rest of the ignorant masses) know it was real?
Your claim is that the entire JIT is collaborating on a ruse...so why wouldn't they collaborate there as well?

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Hobbes
post Sep 23 2018, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Sep 22 2018, 10:24 PM) *
My issue was and still pertains to the disclosure of the radar data. I'm confident that American forces as well as at least one or two European countries were monitoring the situation that day. Disclosure on their part could either confirm or deny the Russian radar data.


They HAVE disclosed. What they haven't done is release highly classified data that would give away military capabilities. So, what exactly are you thinking they should do that they haven't done?
QUOTE
This would either confirm or deny the JIT's conclusion of the BUK's launch location of Kursk and we could all go about our day. The issue could have concluded either way years ago. The fact that it was not and allowed to linger does not bode well for the JIT's objectivity.


How do you know that it wasn't, behind the scenes (ie, to preserve classified data from going public)?

QUOTE
That and the fact that Ukraine withheld air traffic controller data because it was allowed to be member of the steering committee boggles the mind.


What was contained in the ATC data that changed the conclusions? It was in the black boxes, which were recovered.

QUOTE
With such important information it is hard to take what is this investigation seriously.


Really? Reading the report, it's hard to come to that conclusion, unless one is predisposed to that conclusion to start with.

QUOTE
Further, if multiple parties had the same information and it was in opposition to the Russian radar data, the loss of face Russia would have suffered would be too tempting for anyone in the Pentagon to pass up. But it was passed up nonetheless.


I imagine these discussions took place, and it was felt the preponderence of evidence still carried the day, and the additional information that could have been provided was not worth the deterioration of our military due to releasing classified information.

QUOTE
One must come to the conclusion that the JIT's behaviour was either grossly incompetent or ideological. If ideology played a role then we must ask if the omissions were withheld to create confusion. What is omitted creates doubt and where there is doubt entire narratives can be maintained.

Again, reading the report, I find this conclusion very difficult to back up.

Conversely I also find it hard to argue that ideology did play a key role in Russia's responses, which mostly could be summarized as throwing fluff into the air to undermine the JIT report. Ideology on the JIT side varied considerably throughout all the members. It would hard to even identify what 'idealogy' it actually had, much less how everyone was brought into line on it. Conversely, Russia has always had a single idealogy, which is ever present in all their media and any released data.

QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 23 2018, 07:33 AM) *
Your claim is that the entire JIT is collaborating on a ruse.?


And, is there any actual evidence this occurred? A ruse of that scale would surely leave evidence. Have any of hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved in the investigation said anything about it being a ruse? I haven't heard of any. Which, on a ruse of this scale...means it didn't happen. You can't keep that many people in line with no one speaking, even accidentally.
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Gray Seal
post Sep 25 2018, 07:46 PM
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I echo what droop224 has written, as well as Trouble. There is a lack of convincing evidence to know one way or the other. Some conclusions seem to be based upon preconceptions more than evidence. I would liken it to the Kavanaugh sex accusations. There is not any evidence but there sure is a lot of people reaching definitive conclusions anyhow.

People will look and believe they have found something to substantiate what they already believe.

I can not understand drawing conclusions based upon the idea that someone must have this definitive evidence even though that evidence has never been produced.

Certainly, US policy should not be based upon the conclusions of the of the JIT. The JIT investigation stinks of being a political instrument.

The people of Ukraine have a tough time with Russia or the corrupt government as their choices. The United States should not be backing either. It should be up to the people in the region to find a better direction.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 26 2018, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 25 2018, 02:46 PM) *
I would liken it to the Kavanaugh sex accusations. There is not any evidence but there sure is a lot of people reaching definitive conclusions anyhow.


NO evidence? This is not similar to the Kavanaugh accusations in any way.
There was actually a plane that was shot down...and a lot of people know it, and people saw the parts. And there was an actual investigation.
And it didn't happen 35 years ago.

I'd liken this more to the moon landings.
Did they happen or did the government just fabricate it? There's the basic reasonability test.

Honestly, GS do you believe the Malaysians, who are part of the JIT, are purposely pointing their fingers at the wrong culprit? They they would actually side with the folks who shot down their passenger plane on purpose?

QUOTE
People will look and believe they have found something to substantiate what they already believe.


I couldn't care less about the outcome and have no pre-conceived opinion beyond disputing the absurd.
I'd agree we shouldn't be involved politically but that has nothing to do with this crash.
Per Droop's commentary...well, yes the Russians are getting bad press.
One might reword this and say the opposition is "using the crash" but you can't really expect the press to say something GOOD about shooting down a passenger plane can you?

Furthermore, no one is seriously suggesting (well, except the Russians...and I guess some folks in here who believe them) that the plane was shot down on purpose.
It's not a war crime (unless the Russians have it right).

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droop224
post Sep 27 2018, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. P)
I couldn't care less about the outcome and have no pre-conceived opinion beyond disputing the absurd.
I'd agree we shouldn't be involved politically but that has nothing to do with this crash.


But we are involved, so where does that place in terms of team rahh-rahh, "team spirit". mrsparkle.gif Does it make you bias?

QUOTE
Honestly, GS do you believe the Malaysians, who are part of the JIT, are purposely pointing their fingers at the wrong culprit? They they would actually side with the folks who shot down their passenger plane on purpose?


QUOTE(Hobbes)
And, is there any actual evidence this occurred? A ruse of that scale would surely leave evidence. Have any of hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved in the investigation said anything about it being a ruse? I haven't heard of any. Which, on a ruse of this scale...means it didn't happen.
Both of you make me laugh with this rhetoric. Oh how hard would it be... i mean super difficult... impossible...

Tell me how hard was it to usurp the rightful government of Ukraine, put in OLIGARCHS in charge? How hard was it to pretend Russia invaded Crimea when Russian military was already there and Crimea wanted to leave due to Ukrainian government was overthrown. Impossible, right? Riiiight???

We have to stop acting like we don't understand the possibilities and the lengths humans will go to achieve power.

Do i think Malaysia will go with doing what it has too to satisfy European-centric nations desires... yes. Would they do it for Ukraine... nope. Would they play along when it comes to the combined strength of NATO allies? It's not absurd to believe they would.

In fact unless there is new news i am aware of... "play along" is exactly what malaysia is doing.



QUOTE
But Loke told Channel NewsAsia that it was premature to "pinpoint at Russia" in explaining the crash."There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT [Joint Investigative Team] evidence," Loke said, adding that investigators' final report will be released in July.
This comes out May 31, 2018. That "wording" doesn't raise eyebrows?

I've been part of investigations and report writing. Not that my personal experience matters as evidence, but i guess i know its not hard to steer auditors and investigators.

The investigators are not colluding on the act of bringing down a airplane. They are following leads "they are given" They are allowed to go down "these roads"; they are told to not go down "these roads". The report will then be written, then edited, then edited, then edited, then edited... and each edit goes further up in that chain of bureaucracy. You don't need hundreds or thousands of people on board.. you need less than a dozen. Everyone else is just like the rest of us... we aren't truth seekers, just employees.

I ask these questions.

Were each country independent of the other? if not; red flag. We should not see one report, every country should have had their own independent report, if TRUTH was what we were after.

Are there any rules to what evidence they could see? If yes, red flag.

QUOTE(Hobbes)
They HAVE disclosed. What they haven't done is release highly classified data that would give away military capabilities. So, what exactly are you thinking they should do that they haven't done? ... How do you know that it wasn't, behind the scenes (ie, to preserve classified data from going public)?
ROFL We don't know! WE - DON'T - KNOW!! We know what they want us to know, now do you have a problem with that Hobbes? If not, then let's not pretend you care about the truth? Its been 4 years.

QUOTE(Mrs P)
Per Droop's commentary...well, yes the Russians are getting bad press.
One might reword this and say the opposition is "using the crash" but you can't really expect the press to say something GOOD about shooting down a passenger plane can you?

Furthermore, no one is seriously suggesting (well, except the Russians...and I guess some folks in here who believe them) that the plane was shot down on purpose.
Porshenka, the soon to be President at the time, called it a terrorist act. That's not bad press. That's propaganda. That words to get the citizens of western democracies to sympathize with the usurping oligarchs of Ukraine. Its a little more than bad press.

QUOTE(Grayseal)
I echo what droop224 has written, as well as Trouble. There is a lack of convincing evidence to know one way or the other. Some conclusions seem to be based upon preconceptions more than evidence. I would liken it to the Kavanaugh sex accusations. There is not any evidence but there sure is a lot of people reaching definitive conclusions anyhow.
I have to agree with Mrs. P, i think you are just trying to slip some apples in with some oranges and hope no one notices.

And just to be clear.. small nuance. For me there is enough evidence to make either story plausible. What the usurping government and western allies were willing to do to create a new Ukranian government is evidence of the human life they are willing to sacrifice for power. Its just as plausible that untrained rebels were armed with a rocket system and said "what's this button do??"

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 28 2018, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 27 2018, 09:36 AM) *
Its just as plausible that untrained rebels were armed with a rocket system and said "what's this button do??"


It's far more plausible that they knew what the buttons did....having shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane, with a missile, in virtually the same location a few days before.
Highly plausible they believed this to be another military transport plane...hard to tell over 20 thousand feet in the air.

Edited to add:
Apparently they initially celebrated the shooting on social media....before they realized what they'd done.

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droop224
post Sep 28 2018, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs P.)
It's far more plausible that they knew what the buttons did....having shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane, with a missile, in virtually the same location a few days before.
Highly plausible they believed this to be another military transport plane...hard to tell over 20 thousand feet in the air.
LOL, you are absolutely right. Its also just as plausible the Ukrainians (by extension western allies) helped play a part, if not orchestrated the event themselves. That all I'm saying.

QUOTE
Edited to add:
Apparently they initially celebrated the shooting on social media....before they realized what they'd done.
But even with that tweet from your own source the "self appointed commander of Donetsk" says "they shot down", not "we shot down" The next video is a bunch of people talking Russian that at the beginning one of the people say "we the miners company" did it in translation. Remember how they tried to trick us? I don't have a clue who is talking ot the authenticity of every conversation.

Again, there is just no way for an unbias person to think one side "wouldn't do that" For me the greater point is: its a tragic accident by the rebels or Russians \ or it was an act of "evil" intent by the Ukranians or the West.
So if makes you wonder, if you think like me... WHY?!?!!? Lets assume Ukraine had NOTHING to do with this. Let's ASSUME the West\NATO Allies had nothing to do with this. Then, what are we left with? Can anyone help with that? A civilian plane flew through a war zone and was mistaken for a military transport plane and shot down? Why would this be important to people who believe that it is perfectly fine to kill human beings mistakenly or even purposefully if there is a "valid" military reason to do so?



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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 28 2018, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 28 2018, 08:22 AM) *
[/b]Lets assume Ukraine had NOTHING to do with this. Let's ASSUME the West\NATO Allies had nothing to do with this. Then, what are we left with? Can anyone help with that?


Yes, I'll help you. Likely negligent homicide. But it would depend on the facts brought to the case.

QUOTE
A civilian plane flew through a war zone and was mistaken for a military transport plane and shot down? Why would this be important to people who believe that it is perfectly fine to kill human beings mistakenly or even purposefully if there is a "valid" military reason to do so?


I think we've had the conversation 50+ times about the concept of necessity and proportionality, Droop.
I'm not going to do it again.
We do have a precedent for this....our Navy shot down an Iranian airliner believing it to be an enemy aircraft (computer error combined with human error).
We settled in court and paid them a bunch of money.
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droop224
post Sep 28 2018, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 28 2018, 07:48 AM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 28 2018, 08:22 AM) *
[/b]Lets assume Ukraine had NOTHING to do with this. Let's ASSUME the West\NATO Allies had nothing to do with this. Then, what are we left with? Can anyone help with that?


Yes, I'll help you. Likely negligent homicide. But it would depend on the facts brought to the case.
Since you brought up Iranian incident. it happened in 1988 we didn't agree to pay until 1996. Did we plea out to negligent Homicide? (not even sure how that would happen collectively) Did we even publicly apologize, yet? Did anyone get held personally responsible and go to jail for the incident?

QUOTE
QUOTE
A civilian plane flew through a war zone and was mistaken for a military transport plane and shot down? Why would this be important to people who believe that it is perfectly fine to kill human beings mistakenly or even purposefully if there is a "valid" military reason to do so?


I think we've had the conversation 50+ times about the concept of necessity and proportionality, Droop.
I'm not going to do it again.
We do have a precedent for this....our Navy shot down an Iranian airliner believing it to be an enemy aircraft (computer error combined with human error).
We settled in court and paid them a bunch of money.
And to be fair i wouldn't want you to go through it again. Its a difference in our individual morality where we place the line of acceptability and it has no real place in this debate. The greater point is that you are one of billions of people that share you moral world view in this regard. I'm not going to say who shares your world view IMO, because then you'd see the comparisons as an attack on your character. Why do people who share the opinion that the loss of innocent life is tragic but necessary part of war really care about this flight going down?

Is our goal the protection of innocent life when discussing this current situation or is our goal to successfully create propaganda to be used to forward a national agenda unknown to most Americans? What's your opinion on that?

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 28 2018, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 28 2018, 10:14 AM) *
Since you brought up Iranian incident. it happened in 1988 we didn't agree to pay until 1996.

We took responsibility right away. The investigation was over within a month.
By the leaps on logic you have presented here (to include a Truther video) one must wonder why we didn't just blame it on Iran?
If we're so adept at deception to the conspiracy level extremes you are asserting, it made no sense to take responsibility for it.
Iran didn't have many friends at the time, mining the Gulf and all that...the reason our Navy had to serve as escorts through the strait of Hormuz.

I'm not sure how much more of a time investment I want to make here.
I don't see the point...but there is a the difference between negligent homicide (a criminal offense) and wrongful death (a civil tort).
The evidence pointed to the latter in our case (I could explain as the details have been released and there was a war college study on it...but again I don't see the point...there isn't one is there? If your default answer is that anything and everything was/is/could be fabricated there's no point).
It might point to either in the MH17 case.
At present, they haven't even accepted responsibility the facts of the investigation would answer and we don't have them.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 28 2018, 04:59 PM
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droop224
post Sep 28 2018, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 28 2018, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 28 2018, 10:14 AM) *
Since you brought up Iranian incident. it happened in 1988 we didn't agree to pay until 1996.

We took responsibility right away. The investigation was over within a month.
By the leaps on logic you have presented here (to include a Truther video) one must wonder why we didn't just blame it on Iran?
If we're so adept at deception to the conspiracy level extremes you are asserting, it made no sense to take responsibility for it.
Iran didn't have many friends at the time, mining the Gulf and all that...the reason our Navy had to serve as escorts through the strait of Hormuz.

I'm not sure how much more of a time investment I want to make here.
I don't see the point...but there is a the difference between negligent homicide (a criminal offense) and wrongful death (a civil tort).
The evidence pointed to the latter in our case (I could explain as the details have been released and there was a war college study on it...but again I don't see the point...there isn't one is there? If your default answer is that anything and everything was/is/could be fabricated there's no point).
It might point to either in the MH17 case.
At present, they haven't even accepted responsibility the facts of the investigation would answer and we don't have them.
What leaps of logic have i presented? What are you just ranting at me? You quote me as saying something that as far as i know that is factually true, then chastise me about it. We knew right a way we were responsible... didn't show any sign contrition for the act until we paid them in 1996 and as far as i know never apologized as a nation to the people of Iran. We took responsibility for the act with a national mentality of "yeah, we did it, sh-stuff happens." It was a fake Bin laden video. Its extremely hard to find any information on that fake bin laden video.

And when you say "If we're so adept at deception to the conspiracy level extremes you are asserting, it made no sense to take responsibility for it.
Iran didn't have many friends at the time, mining the Gulf and all that...the reason our Navy had to serve as escorts through the strait of Hormuz. " That's what i call a leap of logic. There is plenty of information for "conspiracy extremes" but when it does come out generally no one cares... or... it is STILL classified. Something you understand VERY well. But just because there are conspiracies and secrets hidden by our government to the people does not mean that 1) they won't be caught 2) they feel a need to do it with every single thing. it take effort to cover things up. it take effort to conspire. You don't do it if you don't feel a need to.

And to your question "Is there a point?" Well it mirrors my questions of "Why\What's the point\What's the goal?" But instead of addressing that with your opinion like i asked, you decided to go off on another tangent about some other statement i made. Remember i asked:

QUOTE(droop)
Why do people who share the opinion that the loss of innocent life is tragic but necessary part of war really care about this flight going down?

Is our goal the protection of innocent life when discussing this current situation or is our goal to successfully create propaganda to be used to forward a national agenda unknown to most Americans? What's your opinion on that
?





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Hobbes
post Sep 29 2018, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 28 2018, 07:22 AM) *
Then, what are we left with? Can anyone help with that? A civilian plane flew through a war zone and was mistaken for a military transport plane and shot down? Why would this be important to people who believe that it is perfectly fine to kill human beings mistakenly or even purposefully if there is a "valid" military reason to do so?
f

You left out Russian weapons being used directly in the Ukraine, when they weren't supposed to be. Which the West could then use as leverage, getting them to pull those out. Which, ironically, would achieve the end GS would desire, even though he is adamantly against it. (ie, less foreign power involvement in the Ukraine). Conversely, the Russians have every reason to lie, to keep their weapons and support present there, to extend the conflict..yet that is the version GS supports. Apparently, he is not concerned about Russia intervention, only Western responses. Which is very similar to the approach that Chamberlain adopted prior to wWII (as are the incursions Russia is making also similar to event that led to wWII).

FWIW, we aren't really involved in the Ukraine. What involvement do we have? Please elaborate. Sure, we SIDE with Ukraine, against Russia, but we don't have involvement there, that I am aware of.

The conclusion the investigation came to was also the only really viable one to start with. The others were somewhere between extremely unlikely and totally farcical. Those stipulating that something else occurred and really simply ignoring the basic facts and realities of the situation.

Does Malaysian Airlines itself bear perhaps the biggest 'blame' here? I wouldn't argue that. They shouldn't have been flying over a war zone. But then, the rebels had no weapons that could reach a passenger liner, so that probably wasn't that outlandish a decision.
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Gray Seal
post Sep 30 2018, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen)
Honestly, GS do you believe the Malaysians, who are part of the JIT, are purposely pointing their fingers at the wrong culprit?

I am surprised you do not think the United States puts pressure on smaller countries to capitulate to United States' political manipulations.

QUOTE(Hobbes)
FWIW, we aren't really involved in the Ukraine. What involvement do we have? Please elaborate. Sure, we SIDE with Ukraine, against Russia, but we don't have involvement there, that I am aware of.

Huh? I suppose if you mean involvement to be the presence of at least five figures of troops you are correct. Political support of a evil regime, money support of that same regime, weapons support...why do these not count in your mind?

Picking sides just to pick a side is not good foreign policy. If foreign policy is "Russia it is evil and anyone who is contrary to Russia is good", we have a woe begotten policy. Our policy in the Ukraine is exemplified by the pronouncement we see with the Ford/Kavanaugh political show. People are convinced Kavanaugh must be shredded even though there is no evidence. Why? Because some people are evil and if we must punish anyone who has a hint of similar evil whether they are guilty or not. IT is a mindset of the American people which is the opposite to honorable.

The United States has been guilty of lying. The United States has killed civilians in foreign lands without a declaration of war for political gains. Russia has lied. Russia has killed for political gains.

There must be better evidence of guilt than has been presented in the MH17 case. Declaring the Ukraine government and the United States as good and Russia is bad is not evidence.

I do not like the idea of Russia intervening into Ukraine politics. I do not want my government doing it either. I will continue my minuscule efforts to throw the bums out here in the United States. Supporting the bums in their attempts to put the fingers around the world? No way.

--------

(1)The desire to reach a conclusion when one can not be made is a path to bad results. (2)To punish because you want someone to be punished is repugnant. I would guess some would disagree with these two sentences and think there is good in sending messages. I can not think of a world more scary than one guided by such.

Who cares about truth? Who cares about fair? It would be all about power and violence being the guiding principle.

Citizens should not be approving bold actions based upon bad information and bad conclusions. Governments, no matter if foreign or your own, should be opposed if they act badly.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 30 2018, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 30 2018, 11:41 AM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen)
Honestly, GS do you believe the Malaysians, who are part of the JIT, are purposely pointing their fingers at the wrong culprit?

I am surprised you do not think the United States puts pressure on smaller countries to capitulate to United States' political manipulations.


Therein lies the conspiracy theory hydra (which I was referring to with Droop).
Anything and everything can be explained away as the US either fabricating and/or placing (secret of course) pressure to force compliance.
There's no end. Lop off one end, here comes another.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 30 2018, 04:56 PM
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