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> Why Not To Own A Firearm, Turns out that they're killing machines
AuthorMusician
post Jul 17 2017, 02:58 PM
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Two news reports that came back-to-back recently have revealed why you might not want to own a firearm.

The first is the father who shot his son dead at a supposedly safe indoor range when a hot shell allegedly bounced off the wall and fell into his shirt, then he used his hand holding the pistol to get the shell out, and that resulted with him shooting his son in the jugular vein. A few moments later his son, 14 years old, died.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/04/us/florida-f...-son/index.html

The second is a guy getting shot in the leg at a Denver gun show.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/denver-man-acc...anner-gun-show/

Firearm enthusiasts rationalize these incidents away by claiming they should never have happened if the firearms had been handled correctly, basically that guns don't kill, people do.

Same can be said for most traffic injuries and fatalities. Vehicles don't kill, drivers do.

So is that good enough for you? Or does it make sense to avoid firearms and places where they are fired in order to not be shot? Does your need to feel secure outweigh the risks involved in owning firearms?

Other examples come to mind, some exactly the same and others that are stranger, such as the camper not too far from here being killed by a stray bullet. The round came from an unsupervised range about a third of a mile away, which has also been the starting place for two fires this year.

I guess that's one reason they're called firearms, but I understand that exploding targets were involved. Hey, lets go into wildfire areas and start some -- ought to be fun!

Reminder: This is Casual Conversation, a place where points don't have to be made but where education can happen. My purpose is to encourage education on the risks of firearm ownership, especially those that are usually ignored. Like getting shot at a gun show in Denver or losing your child due to a freaking hot shell falling into your shirt -- one of the major reasons I sold my Glock 9mm. It did that all the time. There were several other reasons as well. I no longer own a firearm, have no plans to own them in the future, and I have my reasons.

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Aug 30 2017, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 29 2017, 10:42 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 29 2017, 09:15 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 29 2017, 05:23 AM) *
Simple, right? So why does selling firearms in gun stores require an act of machismo?


What makes you think that? How many firearms stores have you been in?
In my experience, firearms stores are friendly and professional. Often the owners are former law enforcement or military.

Some people like to play the guitar AND like firearms. And boats. And....a bunch of diving and spearfishing stuff. Ect.

I grew up in a town with an actual gun store, as opposed to the drug stores in Memphis that sold them and the sporting goods stores in Colorado Springs. It sold firearms to hunters and did its own gunsmithing. Watching the owner at his lathe is a strong childhood memory. I've been in about half a dozen gun stores in this area, probably a few dozen more in others since my youth. So I think this way from observations during those experiences.


Great. Those places are still around. How about breakfast at Kiffney's? smile.gif

QUOTE
Why are you so defensive on how machismo is used to sell firearms?

Because of the way you wrote the statement. Why do pawn shops work "(this way...which you imply is favorable)" and gun shop sales "require an act of machismo" (which you imply isn't favorable). I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this statement, but it doesn't sound complimentary. And the pawn shops I've been in aren't the place I'd choose to buy merchandise. But I'm not going to paint my experience as the only one, nor my observations as the rule of how all pawn shops work. In fact, I accept your observations and note that my experience is most likely not accurate...because you've been to more pawn shops than I have by the sound of things (I've been to very few).

QUOTE
It's very obvious to me and does have a military sense to it, something you might be unaware of, like the smell of a room in which you spend a lot of time. But the point is how this is used in sales as an appeal to emotion. So maybe you're not aware of how this is used in sales? Seems so, but then you're a female customer, and the machismo may not work, so it isn't used on you.
A similar thing happens with guitars -- the sales pitch changes with females, more toward the art of music than the getting-laid stuff. Also popularity, which is a broader thing than sex. Keep in mind that a lot of sales involves subtle nudges rather than obvious stuff, and that being nice during the process is indeed a part of the whole. Another rather large part is reading customers and appealing to what they have literally told the sales person in word and action, of which the customer is often not aware.


But firearms have different qualities too, and that will interest a person who is very proficient with firearms. My spouse is expert marksman. He was just at a shooting competition out of state this weekend and got first place. It was a speed shooting competition with different variables ("friendlies" jump out and so forth, so the shooting has to be fast, accurate, and very discriminate). At any rate, his discernment will be different from a novice who goes into the store. And the same thing might apply to a guitar. Novice goes in and has no idea what to buy, so the salesperson talks about what a chick magnet a guitar is. An experienced musician goes in for a different reason.

QUOTE
Sidebar: Lydia is now interested in using pawn shops as a means to recoup costs on her Lego sets that have become an interest. I frankly don't know if Legos are sold/bought in pawn shops, so I suggested she do a few phone calls to find out. I like them for music stuff because I don't have to deal with packing/shipping and buyers' complaints, ala online selling. I figure the returns are about 10-15% less with pawn shops, well worth the loss when compared to the reduced aggravation.


She might want to try Craig's list. I know little tykes stuff and thomas the tank engine used to see really well on that (though my experience was a long while ago). Legos might also.
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AuthorMusician
post Aug 30 2017, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 30 2017, 09:21 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 29 2017, 10:42 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Aug 29 2017, 09:15 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 29 2017, 05:23 AM) *
Simple, right? So why does selling firearms in gun stores require an act of machismo?


What makes you think that? How many firearms stores have you been in?
In my experience, firearms stores are friendly and professional. Often the owners are former law enforcement or military.

Some people like to play the guitar AND like firearms. And boats. And....a bunch of diving and spearfishing stuff. Ect.

I grew up in a town with an actual gun store, as opposed to the drug stores in Memphis that sold them and the sporting goods stores in Colorado Springs. It sold firearms to hunters and did its own gunsmithing. Watching the owner at his lathe is a strong childhood memory. I've been in about half a dozen gun stores in this area, probably a few dozen more in others since my youth. So I think this way from observations during those experiences.


Great. Those places are still around. How about breakfast at Kiffney's? smile.gif

QUOTE
Why are you so defensive on how machismo is used to sell firearms?

Because of the way you wrote the statement. Why do pawn shops work "(this way...which you imply is favorable)" and gun shop sales "require an act of machismo" (which you imply isn't favorable). I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this statement, but it doesn't sound complimentary. And the pawn shops I've been in aren't the place I'd choose to buy merchandise. But I'm not going to paint my experience as the only one, nor my observations as the rule of how all pawn shops work. In fact, I accept your observations and note that my experience is most likely not accurate...because you've been to more pawn shops than I have by the sound of things (I've been to very few).

QUOTE
It's very obvious to me and does have a military sense to it, something you might be unaware of, like the smell of a room in which you spend a lot of time. But the point is how this is used in sales as an appeal to emotion. So maybe you're not aware of how this is used in sales? Seems so, but then you're a female customer, and the machismo may not work, so it isn't used on you.
A similar thing happens with guitars -- the sales pitch changes with females, more toward the art of music than the getting-laid stuff. Also popularity, which is a broader thing than sex. Keep in mind that a lot of sales involves subtle nudges rather than obvious stuff, and that being nice during the process is indeed a part of the whole. Another rather large part is reading customers and appealing to what they have literally told the sales person in word and action, of which the customer is often not aware.


But firearms have different qualities too, and that will interest a person who is very proficient with firearms. My spouse is expert marksman. He was just at a shooting competition out of state this weekend and got first place. It was a speed shooting competition with different variables ("friendlies" jump out and so forth, so the shooting has to be fast, accurate, and very discriminate). At any rate, his discernment will be different from a novice who goes into the store. And the same thing might apply to a guitar. Novice goes in and has no idea what to buy, so the salesperson talks about what a chick magnet a guitar is. An experienced musician goes in for a different reason.

QUOTE
Sidebar: Lydia is now interested in using pawn shops as a means to recoup costs on her Lego sets that have become an interest. I frankly don't know if Legos are sold/bought in pawn shops, so I suggested she do a few phone calls to find out. I like them for music stuff because I don't have to deal with packing/shipping and buyers' complaints, ala online selling. I figure the returns are about 10-15% less with pawn shops, well worth the loss when compared to the reduced aggravation.


She might want to try Craig's list. I know little tykes stuff and thomas the tank engine used to see really well on that (though my experience was a long while ago). Legos might also.

Ah, I get it, but the overall thing is that pawn shops are different from retail stores, and it doesn't matter what's being sold. I focused on gun shop retail due to the thread subject.

Positive or negative? Well, pawn shops meet my needs for turning over musical instruments, and they deal in firearms a lot. Gun shops deal in firearms, but unless located as a section in a Memphis drug store or a CS sporting goods store, that's pretty much it. We have a custom gun shop in town now, so I might go in there to scope it out. I am curious as to how custom the guns are and what they'd cost.

I would say that I've possibly been to many places you have not. I'm older (pretty sure of that) and have a high degree of curiosity and wanderlust. I find even a ride in an ambulance to be interesting to my writer's eye. On the other hand, you've been to a lot of places I have not. It's how this existence works. We are all centers of our unique universes, some more or less unique than others.

Craig's List has a lot of downsides to it, mostly because it has become risky over the years. But Lydia shares my distaste for selling online and sales in general, although nobody gets away with never selling anything. She still feels guilt about it, but I'm long past that stage. Maybe that's why I'm such a horrible customer in retail spaces? It was one of the things that made me a good systems admin back in my day, nailing down those vendor reps (sales staff) in their pitches and outright lies. Do not try to bee-ess a bee-esser, not ever!

I admit to having deep contempt for a lot of sales people, especially the flim-flam artists. But instead of going for my guns, I use sarcasm and role-playing to mess with them, which I find entertaining. There's also a chance of influencing people this way.

And as I've described, I messed with a potential firearm customer's head in a pawn shop. Now I'm thinking that his instrument should be a National Resophonic or Dobro set up for slide -- the guy had this thing about him that felt untempered, musically speaking. For reference, pianos are tempered. Violins are not, as you need to know where the notes are located on an unmarked fingerboard. Wind instruments have both characteristics, tempered and untempered, as do fretted guitars for advanced players. If you can mess with the notes (bending), it's semi-tempered. If you have to mess with the notes to play at all, untempered. If you press down on piano/organ keys, it's tempered. You have no choices, that's the freaking note -- live with it.

Anyway, it is a lot harder to sell crap to experienced customers, hands down. My overall point is that people like my Denver dude can be suckered into buying something they 1) don't need, and 2) will likely turn out badly. In this sense, pawn shops tend to be more positive than retail, since the pawn shop has less need to sell anything to anybody, ergo less sales pressure on customers. Also, as noted, customers tend to know exactly what they want ahead of time.

Thought of another big difference -- pawn shop deals tend to be cash only, no credit. Ah, another one -- it's also common that pawn shops will accept trades, as opposed to trade-ins. This for that, rather than 15% off. There is of course the risk of the goods being stolen, and that brings in another wrinkle to an already long-in-the-tooth commerce model.

So if you're local to the pawn shop, you get better deals. You're more of a person and less of a number.

Holy harmonies Bossman, that Denver guy might have been hoping for no background check on a firearm purchase! Oh dog man, get a guitar instead. It's a lot harder to kill anyone with a guitar, including yourself. And you might get laid! Might also find a reason to live, if that's where it was going. Works for me, and that's the dag-nabbed truth.

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Curmudgeon
post Sep 1 2017, 08:13 AM
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Does it make sense to avoid firearms and places where they are fired in order to not be shot?

I had two brothers. The oldest owned a gun...

Growing up, my mother woke my older brother (the one who did not own a gun) and asked him, "Who did you bring home last night?"

After a brief conversation, my older brother got out of bed, grabbed the oldest brother's rifle and led a parade down the stairs where he woke the sleeping man with the rifle barrel... At that point, my mother finally believed my brother's reply that he had brought no one home and phoned the police...

The responding policeman explained that while the man was trespassing, had he been armed with his own gun, he could have shot us all and claimed self defense. "If you're going to point a gun at someone, you should at least take the safety off." was his next advice...

I have never fired a gun. At 71, I don't want to start learning a trade that I suspect that I would be useless at.

I have had too many crazy gun owners that I worked with to repeat their stories again, but...

"It was nice of my wife to call in and mention that I outdrew Matt Dillon and I would have to buy her a new television before I came to work.", "Grandma should have checked the oven before preheating it. I've always kept a loaded gun in the oven." and "There is no place in my home that I can't reach out either hand and pick up a loaded gun. Drop by the house anytime and I'll demonstrate." are three of the punchlines that kept me from visiting co-worker's homes...

And after the executor had removed all the working firearms from my brother-in-law's house, I discovered that the Ruger pistol that had been left next to the front door to scare off solicitor's was actually a cap gun.

I've tasted venison enough to suspect that it was properly prepared everytime, but still tasted like something I didn't want a second bite of.
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Looms
post Sep 9 2017, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 17 2017, 09:58 AM) *
Two news reports that came back-to-back recently have revealed why you might not want to own a firearm.

The first is the father who shot his son dead at a supposedly safe indoor range when a hot shell allegedly bounced off the wall and fell into his shirt, then he used his hand holding the pistol to get the shell out, and that resulted with him shooting his son in the jugular vein. A few moments later his son, 14 years old, died.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/04/us/florida-f...-son/index.html

You ride motorcycles.

QUOTE
The second is a guy getting shot in the leg at a Denver gun show.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/denver-man-acc...anner-gun-show/


YOU ride motorcycles.

QUOTE
Firearm enthusiasts rationalize these incidents away by claiming they should never have happened if the firearms had been handled correctly, basically that guns don't kill, people do.

Same can be said for most traffic injuries and fatalities. Vehicles don't kill, drivers do.

So is that good enough for you? Or does it make sense to avoid firearms and places where they are fired in order to not be shot? Does your need to feel secure outweigh the risks involved in owning firearms?

Other examples come to mind, some exactly the same and others that are stranger, such as the camper not too far from here being killed by a stray bullet. The round came from an unsupervised range about a third of a mile away, which has also been the starting place for two fires this year.

I guess that's one reason they're called firearms, but I understand that exploding targets were involved. Hey, lets go into wildfire areas and start some -- ought to be fun!

Reminder: This is Casual Conversation, a place where points don't have to be made but where education can happen. My purpose is to encourage education on the risks of firearm ownership, especially those that are usually ignored. Like getting shot at a gun show in Denver or losing your child due to a freaking hot shell falling into your shirt -- one of the major reasons I sold my Glock 9mm. It did that all the time. There were several other reasons as well. I no longer own a firearm, have no plans to own them in the future, and I have my reasons.


Well, in that case...YOU RIDE MOTORCYCLES!!!
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 10 2017, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE(Looms @ Sep 9 2017, 12:11 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 17 2017, 09:58 AM) *
Two news reports that came back-to-back recently have revealed why you might not want to own a firearm.

The first is the father who shot his son dead at a supposedly safe indoor range when a hot shell allegedly bounced off the wall and fell into his shirt, then he used his hand holding the pistol to get the shell out, and that resulted with him shooting his son in the jugular vein. A few moments later his son, 14 years old, died.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/04/us/florida-f...-son/index.html

You ride motorcycles.

QUOTE
The second is a guy getting shot in the leg at a Denver gun show.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/denver-man-acc...anner-gun-show/


YOU ride motorcycles.

QUOTE
Firearm enthusiasts rationalize these incidents away by claiming they should never have happened if the firearms had been handled correctly, basically that guns don't kill, people do.

Same can be said for most traffic injuries and fatalities. Vehicles don't kill, drivers do.

So is that good enough for you? Or does it make sense to avoid firearms and places where they are fired in order to not be shot? Does your need to feel secure outweigh the risks involved in owning firearms?

Other examples come to mind, some exactly the same and others that are stranger, such as the camper not too far from here being killed by a stray bullet. The round came from an unsupervised range about a third of a mile away, which has also been the starting place for two fires this year.

I guess that's one reason they're called firearms, but I understand that exploding targets were involved. Hey, lets go into wildfire areas and start some -- ought to be fun!

Reminder: This is Casual Conversation, a place where points don't have to be made but where education can happen. My purpose is to encourage education on the risks of firearm ownership, especially those that are usually ignored. Like getting shot at a gun show in Denver or losing your child due to a freaking hot shell falling into your shirt -- one of the major reasons I sold my Glock 9mm. It did that all the time. There were several other reasons as well. I no longer own a firearm, have no plans to own them in the future, and I have my reasons.


Well, in that case...YOU RIDE MOTORCYCLES!!!

Correction: I have stopped riding motorcycles, as that activity carries too much risk while the medical insurance doesn't cover a whole lot of anything. I'm also older now, senior-citizen class older. It is a younger man's sport.

However, riding motorcycles has a huge difference from owning firearms, and that involves bringing in risk for others. The only person you're going to hurt on a motorcycle is yourself in the vast majority of cases. Owning firearms brings risk to the entire family, neighbors, co-workers, fellow students and so on, plus yourself.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 10 2017, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Sep 10 2017, 03:42 AM) *
However, riding motorcycles has a huge difference from owning firearms, and that involves bringing in risk for others. The only person you're going to hurt on a motorcycle is yourself in the vast majority of cases. Owning firearms brings risk to the entire family, neighbors, co-workers, fellow students and so on, plus yourself.


The risk is comparatively low. I know very few people who have ever had an injury from a gun (and the ones that come to mind were in actual shootouts...where NOT having a weapon would have been comparatively more dangerous). However, every single person I can think of who rode a motorcycle for any real length of time was seriously injured on it.

You mentioned above about the mental case killing his family in the home...yet, folks in the 'hood didn't see a reason to pack heat over it.
I didn't say anything then, but I guess I'll give two scenarios now:

1) "Hey there's a mental case who lives down the street and he killed his family!"

is much different from

2) "Hey there's a mental case who lives down the street and, guess what.... you're on the short list of people he wants to see harmed!"

People who don't react to the first typically turn out okay, but people who don't react to the second don't as often.
There's a reason wolves are cunning and sharp of tooth (the ones that weren't didn't make it), and rabbits are swift and birth lots and lots of litters (the species that didn't didn't make it).

At any rate,
Some comic relief. Thought this was priceless. laugh.gif

https://i.redd.it/iqt5nt1lbqkz.jpg

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 10 2017, 12:16 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 12 2017, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 10 2017, 08:09 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Sep 10 2017, 03:42 AM) *
However, riding motorcycles has a huge difference from owning firearms, and that involves bringing in risk for others. The only person you're going to hurt on a motorcycle is yourself in the vast majority of cases. Owning firearms brings risk to the entire family, neighbors, co-workers, fellow students and so on, plus yourself.


The risk is comparatively low. I know very few people who have ever had an injury from a gun (and the ones that come to mind were in actual shootouts...where NOT having a weapon would have been comparatively more dangerous). However, every single person I can think of who rode a motorcycle for any real length of time was seriously injured on it.

You mentioned above about the mental case killing his family in the home...yet, folks in the 'hood didn't see a reason to pack heat over it.
I didn't say anything then, but I guess I'll give two scenarios now:

1) "Hey there's a mental case who lives down the street and he killed his family!"

is much different from

2) "Hey there's a mental case who lives down the street and, guess what.... you're on the short list of people he wants to see harmed!"

People who don't react to the first typically turn out okay, but people who don't react to the second don't as often.
There's a reason wolves are cunning and sharp of tooth (the ones that weren't didn't make it), and rabbits are swift and birth lots and lots of litters (the species that didn't didn't make it).

At any rate,
Some comic relief. Thought this was priceless. laugh.gif

https://i.redd.it/iqt5nt1lbqkz.jpg

Indeed, the risk of riding motorcycle is different from the risk of owning firearms. I'm not sure how you determine serious injury or how extensive your personal observations are, but it does bring back the motorcycle adage:

It's not a matter of if but when.

Here are a few differences from my POV:

Nobody steals motorcycles to commit crime. The act of stealing a motorcycle is itself a crime, but they aren't used in armed holdups, for example, unless as a getaway vehicle.

No mass murder has ever been done using a motorcycle.

No families have experienced murder/suicide via the use of a motorcycle.

Firearms are used more often in suicides than motorcycles. It's a matter of effectiveness and avoidance of physical pain, IMO.

My personal experience with motorcycles involves hundreds of thousands of miles riding, one broken clavicle, one broken wrist, one broken ankle, two concussions similar to what I got while playing high school football (center/center linebacker). I grew up with the helmet law in Minnesota, and the skull bucket saved my tush twice. Riding without a helmet was to me very uncomfortable for the noise and cold.

But of course my personal experience isn't an indication of risk. It'd take studies of many motorcycle riders to do that, and here's where the concepts intersect. Risk studies are needed to put a finer point on the concept of risk in any particular activity, and a lot have been published on the risk of riding motorcycle. More than on the risk of firearm ownership? That I don't know. But I do know that federal funding for these studies on firearm ownership has been dropped due to what firearm enthusiasts, led by the NRA, believe to be unreliable conclusions.

Yes, and there are a lot of motorcycle riders who eschew the use of helmets on similar grounds. The are referred to as organ donors among the helmet-wearing riders.

Here's something to think about, Mrs. P: You know a lot of firearm owners who have been trained in their use, probably a lot more than MC riders trained to ride safely. This could account for the lower risk that you've observed, being that safely handling firearms is not as complex as riding MC safely in traffic. I'm pretty sure of this, as I've done both and can compare.

However, there remains the inherent intent of either machine: One is for transportation; the other is for killing. An example: Locked up firearms were taken from their owner and used in the Sandy Hook mass murder. The owner herself was killed via the use of her own firearm.

Has this ever happened with motorcycles locked up in a garage? Not that I know of, so the risk of that is quite low with MC than with firearms.

Here's something I've observed: Lots of MC riders, especially those with Harleys, trailer their scooters to rallies. I can understand that, having been a Harley mechanic and knowing how unreliable they are, or were. This was back in the 1970s. The new ones are said to be better, so that leaves the discomfort of riding long distances. Is there something similar with firearms?

If there is, I don't see it. Handling firearms is the same no matter what -- there's nothing like an F-150 to take away the risk of machine failure or usage discomfort. This leaves not owning firearms at all, which can also be said about riding motorcycles. To eliminate risk, don't do the risky business.

And of course if you decide to do the risky business, face that risk head-on. Don't try to make false comparisons or reduce the reality in your own head. On an MC, that leads to disaster for the rider. With firearms, it leads to disaster for users and others, and the others usually have no say in the decision to own firearms.

It's not a matter of if but when, so be prepared and know that you're a fallible human being with a fallible piece of machinery. I think this is a wise way to approach MCs, firearms, cars, trucks, furnaces, electrical devices -- pretty much anything having to do with humans and machines.
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lo rez
post Sep 12 2017, 08:54 PM
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Motorcycles: Nature's Killing Machines


This post has been edited by lo rez: Sep 12 2017, 08:55 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 14 2017, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE(lo rez @ Sep 12 2017, 04:54 PM) *

Ha! Proof that if it can be imagined, a cartoonist somewhere has drawn it.

I've never heard of vehicular homicide being charged to an MC rider, but I suppose someone somewhere has done it. Maybe it was vehicular pet homicide, as dogs have this thing about chasing moving metal, and I've never been tempted so much to use the business end of a revolver on someone's dearly loved mutt. It's just too difficult to get them in front, and since hot-dogging a bike is a lot like Russian Roulette, a gentle stomp in Rover's chops was my primary defense. Ergo, wear sturdy boots.

Had a friend's dog P on my front wheel once. Took it as high praise from Above -- that dog got to be known far and wide. Well, right up until the next bike bath.

I wonder if a pet has ever P'd on the barrel of a firearm?
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 22 2017, 01:51 PM
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This headline is terribly dishonest, from my POV:

Report: Florida girl, 4, dies after accidentally shooting herself with gun in grandma's purse

A more honest headline would be:

Florida Grandmother Enables Death Of Granddaughter By Keeping Concealed Handgun In Purse

It's more honest in that carrying the handgun was not an accident, and rifling through the purse for candy is a very easy prediction to make on the behavior of a four-year-old. Also, the only responsible adult in this story is indeed the grandmother. Unless somehow impaired, she knows this too. It matters not what anyone writes or says about it, she now gets to carry this guilt for the remainder of her life.

It also does not matter if she is or is not held legally responsible. She knows what she has done, and this is why people need to consider all possibilities, and more importantly, all probabilities of firearm ownership. If a person doesn't understand the difference between possibility and probability, then that person does not understand the risk.

Assuming she carried the pistol for self-defense, she must now face the fact that she valued her life more than others' lives, including her granddaughter's. It's a horrible thing to outlive your child. It's a living hell to outlive your grandchild AND be responsible for her/his death.

So, are you willing to take that risk to protect yourself? I'm not, and besides, virtually everyone I see treats me with respect to the point I sometimes wonder if I'm in The Truman Show. I like to think that's due to karma, aka The Golden Rule. Could be just that I look like I'd spent the last few years in a tiger cage, ala Vietnam.

In any case, no firearms for me. Don't need them. Don't want them. It's as if I get so many risk credits, and I don't want to waste them.





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post Oct 3 2017, 03:02 AM
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The Las Vegas shooting that happened yesterday has seriously impacted one guitarist who performed just a few hours before:

Caleb Keeter Changes Mind on Gun Control Laws

I'm not sure how to take this. Maybe he's in shock -- probably in shock -- and could change his mind again after his nerves settle down. Or maybe the sheer horror of the event has indeed shown him how defenseless we are when it comes to mass shooters. It's impossible to know, not having a similar experience to reference. And I'd rather finish this lifetime not knowing what it feels like to be shot at in a crowd, people falling all around, the insanity of it all.

I'd much prefer to go out the way I've lived -- peacefully, mostly. If you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword -- so maybe the reverse is true-ish too.

Anyway, Caleb has an opportunity to change his ways. He'd be wise to take a good look at his life and determine what and what is not important. If going back to his old stance of being against gun control becomes his decision, so be it. But there's something about his story that makes me think he won't. Maybe it's the musician's knowledge of how practice makes better and that perfection is unattainable. Maybe it's the images of the woman getting shot right in front of him and the realization that his friends were injured by shrapnel (or maybe flying bone material). Or maybe it's in the name? Can't put a finger on it, so it'll have to be a vague impression for now.

The shooter was 64 years old, about a year younger than me. That's old enough to have been drafted for Vietnam, at least to be a fan of Rambo with his big, bad machine gun in the first (and best) movie. There's speculation that the shooter used the same kind of weapon.

Then the Rambo wannabee killed himself. Dang, if only he had mixed up the sequence of events . . . or better, had never gotten into firearms in the first place. But then there are other possibilities, such as a brain tumor (need better healthcare) or maybe something out of story land, like being coerced into it by foreign agents. There are questions on how he obtained his stable of firearms, being that they likely cost a lot of money.

But let's say he just did this on his own volition -- he'd have been a lot smarter to stay away from firearms altogether.

I think that's where Caleb Skeeter is headed. Shoot out notes, not bullets.
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post Oct 9 2017, 02:10 PM
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A guy in Phoenix, AZ, gave up his firearms after the Las Vegas shooting. He made it public, which turned out not to be so smart:

http://www.kvoa.com/story/36537904/phoenix...s-death-threats

The lesson here is that if you give up your firearms, it's better to do it privately, not publicly. It doesn't matter who made the death threats to the guy or why, he brought possibly dangerous attention to himself and his family. Maybe he was trying to be noble, maybe lusting after online fame, maybe something else. That doesn't matter either, as he has endangered himself/family needlessly and perhaps worse than keeping the firearms in the house to begin with.

Like the Monk theme song (not the jazz guitar solo) went, It's a jungle out there. Within this context, it's a virtual jungle full of trolls and eccentrics. That sometimes bleeds into real life.

This post has been edited by AuthorMusician: Oct 9 2017, 02:11 PM
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post Oct 10 2017, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 9 2017, 03:10 PM) *
A guy in Phoenix, AZ, gave up his firearms after the Las Vegas shooting. He made it public, which turned out not to be so smart:

http://www.kvoa.com/story/36537904/phoenix...s-death-threats

The lesson here is that if you give up your firearms, it's better to do it privately, not publicly. It doesn't matter who made the death threats to the guy or why, he brought possibly dangerous attention to himself and his family. Maybe he was trying to be noble, maybe lusting after online fame, maybe something else. That doesn't matter either, as he has endangered himself/family needlessly and perhaps worse than keeping the firearms in the house to begin with.

Like the Monk theme song (not the jazz guitar solo) went, It's a jungle out there. Within this context, it's a virtual jungle full of trolls and eccentrics. That sometimes bleeds into real life.


Close the thread - AM is talking to himself. (Well, rambling to himself would be more accurate...)
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post Nov 18 2017, 02:16 PM
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Just checking to see if the thread was actually closed.

Apparently not. Maybe because it's Casual Confab?

Ramblin Man 1970


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post Nov 20 2017, 04:03 PM
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Rifle season for deer -- whitetail, blacktail, mule, and maybe the one I just heard about, Roosevelt -- is open around this time of year. Read about a couple of recent hunter deaths, one from gunshot and the other from natural causes (age), and that brought me back to when I'd go out with Winchester in hand to murder Bambi.

It was always mysterious how hunters in tree stands wearing blaze orange kept getting shot, supposedly for being mistaken for a male deer with antlers and in rut (annual horniness). We didn't have many cows in the upper reaches of the frozen MN tundra, so no problem there, but it is a problem where cattle roam around.

It often sounded like a firefight, hunters emptying their rifles rapidly for unknown reasons -- maybe squirrels -- and it made us cringe. Taking more than one shot was considered a sign of bad marksmanship, and more than two a sign of tenderfoot disease. We also eschewed the use of brush beaters to flush out the game, mostly because that's a real good way to get shot by the aforementioned bad hunters.

Don't know what it's like today, but if what I described above sounds familiar, you might want to drop rifle hunting altogether. You're wearing bright colors in the hope that someone with a gun will not shoot you. The deer don't care, being colorblind, and will go by their noses and ears mostly. So get accustomed to the stench of deer musk for masking your human stink and sitting in one spot, cold and miserable, for hours.

Alternatives include taking up archery and/or hunting upland game birds like grouse and turkey. Birdshot (#8 usually) won't wound you too badly, and if you catch a broadhead during bow season, you might be the first in your region. Mostly though, you'll be sharing the woods with fewer bad hunters. And the seasons tend to be during warmer months, maybe fall colors too.

Then there are related sports like archery target shooting and skeet shooting, for the pheasant and duck hunters. You can also use pointer/retriever dog breeds on some kinds of hunts. Overall, the alternatives offer more year-round activities than rifle season for deer.

Finally, you can walk around when hunting grouse rather than sitting in a stand/blind. The idea is to spot the birds on the ground before they fly off in a startling mess of flapping.

From the firearm ownership risk side, shotguns and bows are not used very often, accidentally or purposefully, in domestic gun violence -- have never heard of a bow being used in domestic violence, but I suppose it has happened a few times. Hemingway offed himself with a shotgun, so there's an example. Danny Gatton did too -- Hemingway was an author and Gatton a musician.

Ergo, no scatter guns for me!

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post Dec 7 2017, 10:56 PM
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Seems that research on firearm problems is picking up steam, and this time there aren't taxpayer dollars feeding it:

http://beta.latimes.com/science/sciencenow...07-story.htmlan

The above story has to do with increased firearm sales after the Sandy Hook and other mass shootings, and how that trend parallels increases in deaths/injuries by firearms. Makes sense to me -- more firearms increase the odds of death/injuries by those firearms.

The good news then is that research has returned to this issue, so policies can be made on better information. I'm expecting push-back along the lines of taxpayer funds being used in the form of grants to universities and nonprofits, but I don't think that's going to gain much traction. The increase in mass shooting frequency has also left data behind that's begging to be studied, and if attempts are made to stop taxpayer funds from being used this way, the reason becomes obviously a ploy to keep the public uninformed on the risks of firearm ownership.
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post Dec 8 2017, 12:36 PM
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It's true there is a correlation between gun sales and gun legislation (or the perception that there will be gun legislation in the future due to an act of violence like Sandy Hook).
I've mentioned this before, and now I can see it in real time.
For instance, Christmas of 2015 it was standing room only in gun stores. People were packed in, attempting to buy guns. Ammo was very expensive.
Now, the stores are usually empty (with the exception of a couple of long time regulars here and there).
Ammo hasn't been so cheap in many years.
People just aren't buying as much.
Nowhere near as much by the look of things.

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post Jan 1 2018, 11:28 PM
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This article addresses one of my pet peeves regarding people with firearms: They seem to be slobs by what they leave behind and ignorant by what they shoot at.

http://gazette.com/pike-national-forest-ra...article/1618142

I get the joke, sign says No Shooting, so we shot it. Har har. It was funny when I was 10. Now I know that taxpayer dollars pay for the signs, so it's like burning folding money just because, ah, something. And this is our national forest, so if you can't show respect for it, please stay away. Go shoot at an indoor range, and hopefully you'll get through that unbloodied and not an accidental killer.

Of course the argument is that a few bad apples spoil the barrel. Yeah? Well how about those good apples tell the bad apples that they're bad and maybe clean up after them. We are apples with big brains, so I don't think that's asking too much. Just do it when the bad apples are unarmed, for telling them off, or not there, for cleanup. Exercise big-brain caution.

As to why some firearm owners are slobs and/or ignorant, I'm pretty sure it's follow-the-leader. Someone was the first slob/ignoramus, and others did likewise, maybe fooling themselves into believing it's okay. Happens all the time with off-roaders taking shortcuts that often result in getting stuck. Then there's the really expensive tow truck that can get into where four-wheelers become stuck AND the law to face for illegally mucking up the forest. Add firearm problems to that, and it could mean slammer time.

So what's to be done? Since nobody can control either shooters or off-roaders, it comes down to not doing either one unless you're willing to NOT follow the leader. It's never okay to leave trash behind or poke holes in signs. It's usually foolish to follow off-road tracks without first walking the route, and if it's a very light track, it's also probably illegal to take it.

Seems like common sense, no? Makes me wonder why these situations are problems. I mean, isn't owning a firearm supposed to be smart? Shouldn't off-roaders know better? Or am I overestimating the intelligence of people? Probably, so . . . try to be smarter rolleyes.gif



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post Jan 29 2018, 01:05 PM
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By far, most mass shooters are male. Why is that?

Here's a report of a young man shooting up a car wash due to what people who knew him think: jealousy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/victim...ID=ansmsnnews11

The question I have is whether the problem is jealous rage or proximity of firearms. Since both things are omnipresent in the USA, the question requires looking outside the national boundaries. Does jealous rage in males living in other countries result in mass shootings? Or mass murders by any means, say via car bombs, knives, sticks and stones?

Also, why aren't there more female mass shooters? Do women handle jealousy differently, or is the jealousy they feel different from what men feel?

Meanwhile, it seems to me that keeping firearms within, um, arm's reach isn't such a good idea. That's because the chances of emotional turmoil are a lot higher than those for using firearms to defend hearth and home. And I don't think that males in this country are very good at handling emotional upsets, which might point to women being a lot better at it, generally speaking.

There's an attitude among American men that falsely reduces the importance of emotions as well. It's pretty self-destructive in that emotions are actually prime movers in much of humanity, and denying this is like taking a stroll in a live mine field, tugging on Superman's cape, P-ing into the wind, ripping the mask off the old Lone Ranger or messing around with Jim (who is real big). In simple terms, dumber than a rock. Yet a lot of men in this country believe it's being strong.

Nope, still stupid no matter what is believed. That's because emotional denial makes things worse, not better, and emotional pain can be a lot worse than physical. Emotional pain is, by nature, always chronic. Time sometimes heals it, but often not. It can fester for decades and turn nice people into monsters.
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post Feb 16 2018, 05:06 PM
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Do you really want to support an industry that enables people with mental illness to commit mass murder? An industry that lobbies for legislation withdrawals like what President Trump did with the requirement that mental patients be put on the federal background check database?

Might want to consider electronic home protection and perhaps changing the hobby to something that's not so destructive.

I see that smart phone vids of the recent Florida mass shooting are going public. This might make people rethink their desires for firearms, but most likely any hint of regulation will make firearm sales take off, maybe saving Remington's behind.

Support it or not? I'd rather get a new guitar. Guild Bluesbird, please.



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