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Dingo
post Nov 13 2016, 07:47 AM
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To get right to the point, from your observation:

What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?

As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Nov 13 2016, 01:24 PM
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I remember when my kids dragged me to see 'Ant Man'. I was prepared for it to be the worst movie I'd ever seen.
I'm not a fan of movies based on comic books anyway, the title sounded stupid, and so forth...plus it was the Florida keys where everything is really expensive and i didn't want to waste my money. I start watching and after about a half hour I thought, "heh, this movie is surprisingly good...." By the end of it I decided it was a good movie.
But if I'd been expecting it to be great I would have been very disappointed.
It wasn't a good movie in general.

Everything is relative. If you are a multi-millionaire and you lose ten bucks, you probably don't even notice it.
Sometimes life only gives you bad options, and when that happens you chose the better bad option over the worse one
(I'm sure most Hillary supporters were in this camp too...to them, Trump is far worse but that doesn't mean they think Hillary is great)

I'm expecting Trump to suck.
But I was expecting us to go to war with Russia by next fall, and now I don't think that's going to happen.
That alone makes me feel better.

Last night in the car, the conversation went kind of like this:
Beefy (our youngest son, not his real name): "But didn't he say he was going to nuke someone?"
"Yah, but he probably didn't mean it...he's such a card."
"Remember when he talked about his hands?"
"It's true he might pick a cabinet based on hand size..."
"He has no sense of humor..."
"Are you kidding? Trump knows jokes. Trump knows more about jokes than the comedians, believe me..."

It went on like that for a while. Then we considered the main responsibilities of the office:
1) Public speaking.
2) Negotiation
3) Policy decisions

And we rated Trump on those key three areas, on a scale of one to ten:
1) He's not a very good public speaker. We gave him a two here.

2) Negotiation. On this, I think he's pretty good. This might be his strong suit. We gave him an eight.

3) Policy decisions. It's hard to know this one. His ideas are sort of hit or miss...we gave him a five.

What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

It's hard to say. Candidly, I'm very happy about some of the things people seem sore about right off the bat.
"HAH! He said he was going to get rid of Obama care and now he says he will keep the best parts...LIAR!"
Well, yes, but that actually sounds better doesn't it?
Did you want him to charge in like a bull in a China shop and eliminate it without thought or regard for any potential consequences?
This is a good thing. Step back and consider if you really WANT him to come through with all of his campaign promises?

Campaign lie 1: "I will not raise taxes to pay for my programs"
three months later: "Now, on the 90th day of my presidency, I'm going to raise taxes to pay for my programs..."

Campaign lie 2: "I am going to get rid of Obamacare and bomb the snot out of people!!"
after election: "We're going to look at everything and consider it very carefully."

The second lie is not like the first. People who voted for the first candidate were expecting tax rates not to go up.
But I'm pretty sure that most people voting for Trump want to see a change in Obamacare, but that doesn't mean they want folks dying in the streets.
And they want to be (which, for humans means feel...we are simply the product of our perceptions, which is again relative) safer.

I'm elated at this "new" guy and hope he has replaced the old one. Because I would prefer he didn't arbitrarily scrap the better parts of Obamacare.
I'd like for him to keep the useful parts while improving the misguided ones. It's not easy creating a healthcare policy to cover all Americans, and it's not going to be perfect at the get-go. Scrapping everything and starting over would be a dumb policy move. As would just bombing the snot out of everybody.

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?

It's FAR too early to tell, but see the above.

As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?

Nope. But I am hopeful that we will stop actively arming terrorist proxies. Will we? Impossible to say.

It might help to envision Ted Cruz as president now. Does that bring a shudder down your spine? It does mine. Now, look at this clown with fresh eyes and think, "at least, he's not Cruz"
I am serious.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Nov 13 2016, 01:25 PM
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AuthorMusician
post Nov 13 2016, 05:18 PM
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What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

He strikes me as a humanist and an atheist:

* People are responsible to fix the problems of the world
* No deity of any sort will help out
* But if you think praying will help, have at it
* Money makes the world go round, world go round, believe me, go round
* Morality isn't really a consideration, especially for himself

I base this on what he has said as a citizen and a political candidate. I base it on the facts of his time on Earth.

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?

It'll show up in his approaches to undefined challenges, meaning the black swans that crash into his office. I doubt he understands himself enough to consciously push for overt materialism.

As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?

mrsparkle.gif w00t.gif laugh.gif rolleyes.gif

But he can try thumbsup.gif

I have my doubts that he will.

I want him to defeat ISIS and terrorism, especially in this country. I want him to bring back all those semi-skilled blue-collar jobs that have been automated or shipped away. Those two things will be enough for me to vote for him on the second term.

No fudging and no bull. He has to actually do them.

This is of course unless the EC vote turns screwy.
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Dingo
post Nov 14 2016, 10:40 PM
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What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?
Whatever else you say about him Trump's the most transparent candidate I've ever seen. Watching him and putting together a variety of sources I begin to get a picture of him which I readily admit is sketchy and subject to change I hope as his presidency unfolds.

1. I really don't see a moral center to the guy. He lies shamelessly and when confronted simply denies, spins or ignores the matter. He launched his campaign with the bogus birtherism and I don't see any real change since then. Fame, fortune and a zest for fighting seem to be the main things that turn him on. To the extent that he has a world view it seems to mainly devolve into the idea that there are winners and losers and as the coach said "Winning is the only thing." I think he cares for his family and some associates as long as they are on his team. Besides "advantage me" I think his politics seem to be "advantage America-America first" which apparently translate into a lot of his political support although most of his proposals don't seem to be very practical. I think he probably is a low level sociopath and has the winning charm that often goes with that type of fellow.

2. As far as his bigotry I don't think it is of the hard core variety that you would associate with say a David Duke. I think he imbibes conventional cultural stereotypes like saying he wants Jews handling his money, not blacks. Of course he shamelessly played the Mexican and Muslim card and now that it has served its usefullness has backed off a bit. He certainly has no problem welcoming individual black support like from Ben Carson, former Apprentice contestant Omarosa and Mike Tyson who he claims got a raw deal on the conviction for raping a young beauty pageant contestant. Speaking of shameless demagogues there is a bio I saw on tv that showed Trump's connection with another bad actor from an earlier generation. Apparently Trump was well mentored by the lawyer Roy Cohn, the low life right hand of the notorious red baiter Joe McCarthy. Roy Cohn was a Jewish gay guy who ultimately died of aids. I guess you could say with family, his daughter Ivanka married a Jew and converted, and friends he is somewhat insulated from the anti-black, anti-Jewish anti-gay charge at least on a personal level. Of course that doesn't prevent him from dog whistling those folks to get himself elected.

3. It's hard to imagine any area of government where he would be more prepared than Clinton. Nor does he seem much interested in bringing himself up to speed. Little of what he says makes sense. Lets see he's going hog wild on infrastructure and military spending and he's going to cut taxes, balance the budget and keep social security and medicare intact. You couldn't pass 4th grade math with that kind of thinking. Then he's going to get us out of the ME by taking over oil wells to cut off ISSIS supplies. But he's evolving. Apparently he's slowly beginning to grasp that he can't make policy by simply shouting an order.

4. What may be the most dangerous about the guy is that he lives in an alternative reality much of the time as do apparently most of his supporters. He is a conspiracy nutcase which made it easy to claim up until he was elected that the election was rigged and he wouldn't necessarily accept it if he lost. Add on birtherism and a dozen others and you realize this guy has a lot of bats in his belfry.

5. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept of environmental damage much less that AGW is a scientific fact. It's like climbing back into the 14th century. This guy is a regular planet wrecker. Too bad folks who are about destroying the planet have avoided up to now the term traitor.

6. Trump ran as a guy who wasn't hampered by the burden of special interests. This guy has wide spread business interests encompassing 22 countries and they are going to be run according to him by his kids ie his closest advisors. If that isn't being compromised between public and private I don't know what is.

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?
One of the things I read that was revealing was how seriously irritated he was with Obama for being such a wimp. In that regard he compared him unfavorably with Putin. Trump seems to admire overtly tough guys and punitive measures, damn the morality, and that suggests how he will run a lot of his policies. Domestically it's 'law and order' and in foreign affairs swing deals with the big boys with a lot of military to back it up. Sorry Ukraine, you're up a creek.

As far as serious tariffs I doubt it. That was for the rust belt crowds. In Washington he'll be rubbing shoulders with his kind of folks, not with "the losers" who elected him, the folks he contemptuously stated would back him even if he shot somebody down on 5th avenue. He'll no doubt throw them some kind of bone and then its back to spin.

As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?
I don't think he has the tenacity, concern for detail and just plain smarts that Carter had when he swung his deal. The only thing that makes me think he might take more than a cursory interest in the matter is he really doesn't like taking American money and squandering it overseas. That comes up with NATO and even his expressed early concerns after the Iraq invasion where mainly he was worried about the cost. Well the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been a real cost loser for this country. Maybe he'll try to take the various parties off the dole. Who knows. Figuring out a solution that doesn't have a bankruptcy strategy? I don't think he knows the territory.

This post has been edited by Dingo: Nov 15 2016, 12:44 AM
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Trouble
post Nov 17 2016, 12:05 AM
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I don't remember this type of questioning when Obama took office in '08. If I knew where these questions were coming from they might be easier to answer.

What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

That is a ridiculously hard question to answer. Equally difficult to answer is if those beliefs will shape policy or remain buried.

Take for example Ronald Reagan, an admitted born again Christian while governor of California worked with Jim Jones. Jones was appointed as Director of the San Francisco Housing Authority and the man who ran Jonestown into the ground. It was rumoured that Reagan and Jones shared a common belief of end times rapture-like view of the world. Remember Star Wars? Now combine that with end times theology and suddenly the epoch of Reagan becomes unsettling.

Or take Mitt Romney, a Mormon who believed in erasing the barriers to Church and State because of a belief in supremacist theology. Romney was smart enough to never talk widely about what he believed. His Mormon beliefs were on the wacky side, magic underwear and all. It was only after Romney failed to attain high office that an investigation into his iteration of making America great again was known. His view involved placing theology Mormon style at the center of the constitution and running it sort of like Khomeini did in Iran. Very very large constitutional changes.

As for Trump, the only thing I will say is he will attempt to bring industry back into America. Whether that is through tariffs and protectionism I can't say. It is too early to know what kind of incentives he will be able to provide corporations. He is going to have to fight everybody at every level to do anything so it is really speculation.

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?

Considering that resistance to his edicts will be a given, I expect Mr. Trump to speak directly to the public in a way that Obama has not.


As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?

He can try. Most likely he'll do what Obama did less the fancy Cairo speech and take the most minor concession and turn it into some sort of major achievement. He is well suited for bluster and that is a situation tailor made for bluster.[b]
[/b]

This post has been edited by Trouble: Nov 17 2016, 12:38 AM
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Curmudgeon
post Nov 17 2016, 02:36 AM
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To get right to the point, from my observations:

What does Trump believe in?

The voices in his head know far more than any advisors.

And your conclusion is based on what?

My experiences in a bad first marriage living with someone who had all the answers in her head. I quit speaking to her for the final 14 months of the marriage, but she was still quoting me to all of our acquaintances.

His promise to build a wall along the border with Mexico is ignoring the fact that The United States and Mexico signed a Treaty on February 2, 1848. If he had read the Constitution of The United States of America, he would have discovered in Article VI that:
QUOTE
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding.

How do you think he will advance those beliefs as POTUS?

He will attempt to rule by edicts and commands, as I doubt if he really has any awareness of what being President entails. He has been the head of a major corporate entanglement where he could make money by telling other people, "Make money for me or you will be fired."

I am about his age, so I presume that he also saw The King and I. The Ten Commandments and other films that illustrated the absolute power that rulers had before The Magna Carta. was signed.

As the self-proclaimed master of the deal do you think he will conclude a peace treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians?

No, but he will proclaim that he has personally defeated all of the Muslims involved in the Crusades...

Further, as Putin attempts to restore the Soviet Union, "The Donald" will admire his leadership while lamenting the fact that no one in the military will launch nuclear weapons on his behalf without authorization from The Congress of The United States.

[b]To wit, there are long established limits on the power of a United States President, and most candidates are aware of that when they promise to personally kick a cow over the moon. "The Donald" seems to think that he can hike the cow to a person in the backfield who will hold it in position while someone else follows his command to kick the cow over the moon. He also seems to think that he can jail the dish that ran away with the spoon without due process of law...

I could try to get drunk for the next four years, but I have long ago made a commitment to my wife that I will outlive her. (She has threatened to have an undertaker shave my beard off and bury me in a suit if I do not.)

This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: Nov 17 2016, 03:29 AM
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Dingo
post Nov 18 2016, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Nov 16 2016, 05:05 PM) *
I don't remember this type of questioning when Obama took office in '08. If I knew where these questions were coming from they might be easier to answer.

What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

Because Obama was very clear where he was coming from, had a set of policies and a political record and didn't answer most questions by referring to his poll numbers. In addition Trump had no experience in governance, was continually fact challenged, showed himself to be conspiracy nutcase(Remember he launched his campaign with birtherism) and contradicted himself practically every other time he spoke. What do you think would be the right question for such a man?

Perhaps a better question would be why would somebody support or even try to rationalize such an politically inexperienced, narcissistic, pathological liar who would team up with dictator Putin to win an election?

This post has been edited by Dingo: Nov 18 2016, 03:43 PM
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Trouble
post Nov 20 2016, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE(Dingo @ Nov 18 2016, 09:41 AM) *
QUOTE(Trouble @ Nov 16 2016, 05:05 PM) *
I don't remember this type of questioning when Obama took office in '08. If I knew where these questions were coming from they might be easier to answer.

What does Trump believe in? And your conclusion is based on what?

Because Obama was very clear where he was coming from, had a set of policies and a political record and didn't answer most questions by referring to his poll numbers. In addition Trump had no experience in governance, was continually fact challenged, showed himself to be conspiracy nutcase(Remember he launched his campaign with birtherism) and contradicted himself practically every other time he spoke. What do you think would be the right question for such a man?


The reasoning is simpler than you imagine, provided you work past the emotional manipulation. Trump was the less offensive of the two candidates. Losing rural, white voters by a three to one margin in favour of big city immigration dynamics was a choice of the Clinton campaign. They gambled on being the majority and lost. The rural demographic is one that is usually lost in the noise of the election. For the first time in long while the base stretched its legs. The why question might best be answered in war, healthcare, offshoring, and DNC shannigans all of which have an amplified effect towards this demographic. Had Sanders or Stein competed against Trump there would have been a different outcome.

This was just my observation but this election seemed to be a shouting match of whose issues were most pressing. The election could be interpreted this way, one in four Americans focusing on issues A, B, C, while the other other one in four Americans voted for D, E, F, with the other half abstaining. The difference between the two candidates broke down to less than a percentage point between the two candidates (provided you accept the polling data as accurate) and the shift of the electoral colleges at the end was a shift of big money choosing what they saw as the more stable set of policies.

QUOTE(Dingo)
Perhaps a better question would be why would somebody support or even try to rationalize such an politically inexperienced, narcissistic, pathological liar who would team up with dictator Putin to win an election?


Perhaps the crassness of media coverage had an effect in of itself?
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