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> The over and under, How long will it take for Obama to start the backtracking?
Royucker
post Nov 3 2008, 04:51 PM
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If Obama wins, how long after the polls close on Tuesday, before he starts to back away from his promises and policies and to down play expectations for his presidency?
I vote under 1 week.


In the debates and on the stump we heard time and time again that people making less than $250K per year would not have their taxes raised.

Here in Virginia over the last few days, Obama is running an ad where he says, if you have a job and make under $200K you will get a tax cut or wont have your taxes raised.

Recently Bill Richardson, who has been going all over the country to stump for Obama said that if you made less than $120K you would get a tax cut.


Questions are:

Is Obama backtracking on his promise about tax increases or cuts?

What other promises or policies might he go back on or change if elected?

Is Obama setting the table to lessen the expectations and go back promises if elected?


This post has been edited by Jaime: Nov 3 2008, 07:29 PM
Reason for edit: Edited to add in debate questions into body of post
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turnea
post Nov 3 2008, 04:57 PM
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Neither candidate specified what they'd cut in light of the financial crisis. Whoever wins is going to be staring a weak economy and big deficit in the face, so the constraints are considerable.

That said Obama's tax cuts will survive as a stimulus measure, the tax raises on those over $250K will likely be phased in over a few years.

I rather suspect he won't do much backing down actually, anyone taking over from Bush is going to interpret his abysmal performance rating as a bit of a mandate.

This post has been edited by turnea: Nov 3 2008, 05:03 PM
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droop224
post Nov 3 2008, 05:20 PM
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Well Roy...

Seeing he won't actually be in a position to make major decisions until at least january... i'll take you up on that bet!! thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif

Gotta love conservatives w00t.gif
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Jaime
post Nov 3 2008, 05:28 PM
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Topic closed...


Reason: Question to debate too vague.

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REOPENED.
Please debate:

Is Obama backtracking on his promise about tax increases or cuts?

What other promises or policies might he go back on or change if elected?

Is Obama setting the table to lessen the expectations and go back promises if elected?




This post has been edited by Jaime: Nov 3 2008, 07:30 PM
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Royucker
post Nov 3 2008, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 3 2008, 12:28 PM) *
[mod]
Topic closed...


Reason: Question to debate too vague.

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REOPENED.
Please debate:

Is Obama backtracking on his promise about tax increases or cuts?

What other promises or policies might he go back on or change if elected?

Is Obama setting the table to lessen the expectations and go back promises if elected?


[/mod]

THanks
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Aquilla
post Nov 3 2008, 09:00 PM
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Obama has already lied about accepting public financing for his campaign so there is absolutely no reason to believe he isn't lying about everything else he's promised including his tax policy. I think we can expect some drastic new tax increases in his first year, tax increases on virtually every working American. And, he'll blame them on Bush. rolleyes.gif


Aquilla
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turnea
post Nov 3 2008, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Obama has already lied about accepting public financing for his campaign so there is absolutely no reason to believe he isn't lying about everything else he's promised including his tax policy. I think we can expect some drastic new tax increases in his first year, tax increases on virtually every working American. And, he'll blame them on Bush. rolleyes.gif

Can we hold you to that?

I mean all we can do is guess in this discussion, but will anyone reconsider if and when there fears don't materialize?
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Royucker
post Nov 3 2008, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 04:02 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Obama has already lied about accepting public financing for his campaign so there is absolutely no reason to believe he isn't lying about everything else he's promised including his tax policy. I think we can expect some drastic new tax increases in his first year, tax increases on virtually every working American. And, he'll blame them on Bush. rolleyes.gif

Can we hold you to that?

I mean all we can do is guess in this discussion, but will anyone reconsider if and when there fears don't materialize?


Turnea,
Care to address Obama reducing the $250K magic number to $200K or if you believe Bill Richardson, $120K?
Please note the $200K statement is Obama himself saying this not someones take on his words.
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turnea
post Nov 3 2008, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE(Royucker @ Nov 3 2008, 04:51 PM) *
Care to address Obama reducing the $250K magic number to $200K or if you believe Bill Richardson, $120K?
Please note the $200K statement is Obama himself saying this not someones take on his words.

Of course Bill Richardson isn't part of the Obama campaign.

That said the confusion between 200K and 250K is that tax cuts stop around 200K whereas taxes raises kick in at 250K.

The Tax Policy Center has a table:
Link(PDF)
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Aquilla
post Nov 4 2008, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 03:02 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Obama has already lied about accepting public financing for his campaign so there is absolutely no reason to believe he isn't lying about everything else he's promised including his tax policy. I think we can expect some drastic new tax increases in his first year, tax increases on virtually every working American. And, he'll blame them on Bush. rolleyes.gif

Can we hold you to that?

I mean all we can do is guess in this discussion, but will anyone reconsider if and when there fears don't materialize?



I notice you didn't address the part of my post that dealt with Obama lying about accepting public funds.......


Tell me, Turnea, if he lied about that, can we believe him about anything else?


Aquilla
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Ted
post Nov 4 2008, 01:52 AM
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Questions are:

Is Obama backtracking on his promise about tax increases or cuts?

Of course – its been a lie from day one. Those 250K + people do not have the money needed to do what Obama has promised to left.

What other promises or policies might he go back on or change if elected?

Prices will rise for energy as his promised “cap and trade’ system goes into effect. And gas prices will rise because he will TAX the oil industry. Basically every penny he gives away to get elected will be taken back – and then some. Count on it.

And certainly Obama will allow the lefty gun haters like Pelosi to pass gun bans galore. In fact gun sales are up dramatically in anticipation of just that.
Kiss your gun rights goodbye as Obama loads the SC with liberals who hate guns.

http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/33489464.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...ft=1&f=1003

This post has been edited by Ted: Nov 4 2008, 02:23 AM
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turnea
post Nov 4 2008, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 07:45 PM) *
I notice you didn't address the part of my post that dealt with Obama lying about accepting public funds.......


Tell me, Turnea, if he lied about that, can we believe him about anything else?


Aquilla

The trouble is he never pledged unconditionally to accept public financing.
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CruisingRam
post Nov 4 2008, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 06:28 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 07:45 PM) *
I notice you didn't address the part of my post that dealt with Obama lying about accepting public funds.......


Tell me, Turnea, if he lied about that, can we believe him about anything else?


Aquilla

The trouble is he never pledged unconditionally to accept public financing.


Hmmm, I think this is one were Aquilla is right- he did make that promise, then broke it- I think he was right to do it, and maybe wrong to make the statement in the first place, but he did promise it Turnea- lets be fair here.
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turnea
post Nov 4 2008, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Nov 3 2008, 08:30 PM) *
Hmmm, I think this is one were Aquilla is right- he did make that promise, then broke it- I think he was right to do it, and maybe wrong to make the statement in the first place, but he did promise it Turnea- lets be fair here.

Fair eh?

Can anyone quote the words of this promise? Is there a source?
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Aquilla
post Nov 4 2008, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 08:33 PM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Nov 3 2008, 08:30 PM) *
Hmmm, I think this is one were Aquilla is right- he did make that promise, then broke it- I think he was right to do it, and maybe wrong to make the statement in the first place, but he did promise it Turnea- lets be fair here.

Fair eh?

Can anyone quote the words of this promise? Is there a source?



We can start with this and move on from there. Obama lied, pure and simple. He lied about that, how can we believe him about anything else?


Aquilla
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turnea
post Nov 4 2008, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 PM) *
We can start with this and move on from there. Obama lied, pure and simple. He lied about that, how can we believe him about anything else?

Not what Campbell Brown said, what did he say?
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Doclotus
post Nov 4 2008, 03:28 AM
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Here's what Obama said:(pdf)
QUOTE
I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free
television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests. I
introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and am the only 2008
candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) bill to reform the presidential
public financing system. In February 2007, I proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of
the public financing system in the 2008 election. My plan requires both major party candidates
to agree on a fundraising truce, return excess money from donors, and stay within the public
financing system for the general election. My proposal followed announcements by some
presidential candidates that they would forgo public financing so they could raise unlimited
funds in the general election. The Federal Election Commission ruled the proposal legal, and
Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has already pledged to accept this fundraising pledge. If I am the
Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to
preserve a publicly financed general election.

I wasn't crazy about it when he decided to do it (much like his decision on telecom immunity regarding FISA), but I definitely understood why he decided to risk breaking that promise. When he made the pledge in 2007, I don't think he realized he would be looking at 3+ million individual donors to tap into. But it is a broken promise nonetheless.

Other than that, I don't really think the hyperbole coming from our more zealous friends on the right will match reality. Your guns and your taxes are likely quite safe.
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Aquilla
post Nov 4 2008, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 08:49 PM) *
QUOTE(Aquilla @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 PM) *
We can start with this and move on from there. Obama lied, pure and simple. He lied about that, how can we believe him about anything else?

Not what Campbell Brown said, what did he say?



So now Campbell Brown is a liar?

How about the Washington Post? From here......

QUOTE
You can read Obama's response here. The candidate highlighted the simple answer "Yes" and elaborated as follows:

In February 2007, I proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of the public financing system in the 2008 election. My plan requires both major party candidates to agree on a fundraising truce, return excess money from donors, and stay within the public financing system for the general election. My proposal followed announcements by some presidential candidates that they would forgo public financing so they could raise unlimited funds in the general election. The Federal Election Commission ruled the proposal legal, and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has already pledged to accept this fundraising pledge. If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.
When I asked Burton about this yesterday, he said that Obama would address the issue of public financing when he becomes the Democratic nominee and that it is premature to decide the matter now.


And from that page you can read Obama the liar's response directly here.....

QUOTE
Question I-B:
If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private
funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in the presidential public financing
system?

Yes No ___

Comments (please limit to 250 words or less):

I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free
television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests. I
introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and am the only 2008
candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) bill to reform the presidential
public financing system. In February 2007, I proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of
the public financing system in the 2008 election. My plan requires both major party candidates
to agree on a fundraising truce, return excess money from donors, and stay within the public
financing system for the general election. My proposal followed announcements by some
presidential candidates that they would forgo public financing so they could raise unlimited
funds in the general election. The Federal Election Commission ruled the proposal legal, and
Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has already pledged to accept this fundraising pledge. If I am the
Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to
preserve a publicly financed general election.


He lied, Turnea (good name for you since you try to spin everything). HE LIED. If he can get away with lying about this as he has, who can believe him on anything else he says? So yes, he's going to raise taxes on people and drive our economy into the ground, just like Jimmy Carter.


Edited to add a response to Doc.....

QUOTE
I wasn't crazy about it when he decided to do it (much like his decision on telecom immunity regarding FISA), but I definitely understood why he decided to risk breaking that promise. When he made the pledge in 2007, I don't think he realized he would be looking at 3+ million individual donors to tap into. But it is a broken promise nonetheless.

Other than that, I don't really think the hyperbole coming from our more zealous friends on the right will match reality. Your guns and your taxes are likely quite safe.



A lie is a lie, except in the world of the sicko-pant left. Then it becomes a "broken promise". rolleyes.gif

Aquilla

This post has been edited by Aquilla: Nov 4 2008, 03:37 AM
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turnea
post Nov 4 2008, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE(Doclotus)
I wasn't crazy about it when he decided to do it (much like his decision on telecom immunity regarding FISA), but I definitely understood why he decided to risk breaking that promise. When he made the pledge in 2007, I don't think he realized he would be looking at 3+ million individual donors to tap into. But it is a broken promise nonetheless.

Obama said, from your quote.
QUOTE
If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.

That's a conditional promise. He never said he would take public financing only that he would "aggressively pursue an agreement."

Weasel-Wording? Yes.

Lying? No.

He's a lawyer, remember to take him literally when he makes a pledge.

This post has been edited by turnea: Nov 4 2008, 03:42 AM
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BoF
post Nov 4 2008, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 3 2008, 09:38 PM) *
Weasel-Wording? Yes.

Lying? No.

How about a couple of boxing analolgies? Obama either sucker-punched McCain dazed.gif or perhaps he roped a dope. wink2.gif It works either way. mrsparkle.gif

This post has been edited by BoF: Nov 4 2008, 03:55 AM
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