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> Planning Ahead, Keeping AD's community together
net2007
post Jun 13 2018, 06:03 PM
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I was wondering if anybody else here thinks it's a good idea to have a backup plan just in case Americasdebate goes down. It's possible that Mike and Jamie will come back with further plans for AD because they're continuing to pay for the cost of the domain and thus far when the website has gone down, as it did a few days ago, they've worked to fix the problem but in the scenario that we do lose AD, we'd lose what's left of our debating community and some of us have debated here for over a decade. Personally, I've debated here since 2007, have gotten to know some of the members, and developed a lot of my debating skills here so from my perspective it'd be unfortunate to see that happen. AD is also an interesting concept in itself, I think America should have a dedicated spot to debate a range of issues, including with members of other nations when they find an interest.

As for what we'd plan to do if the website goes down, I'm open to any ideas. Perhaps we could think of a common place we'd meet in the scenario that the website goes down, or exchange contact information and figure that out at a later time, there's a number of things that we could do.

This post has been edited by net2007: Jun 13 2018, 06:06 PM
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droop224
post Sep 18 2018, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.

QUOTE
Well, team spirit is narcissistic too isn't it? "We're (team x) look how great we are!"
YES, it is!! But I bet you would feel fine if I said Conservatives generally show more "team spirit" than liberals, but be offended if I were to say Conservatives generally are more narcissistic than liberals. You get where I'm going with that?

QUOTE
Should the player use this platform to protest his own team or own sponsoring state rather than the country as a whole?
Think that would go over well? Should it go over well?
The further left the less they would care, the further right the more they would give a crap. (with exceptions)

QUOTE
Wrong. I prefer no personal political propaganda when I am the paying customer.
Obviously some political speech is more insulting than other political speech.
"Hey you're great! I'm great, we're all great" beats the hell out of "you suck!"

It that REALLY so hard to understand?
Honestly, yes and no. It's real easy to understand what you said, its really hard to figure out how you would apply it and how your application would be replicated to someone else.

Segue to Trouble

QUOTE(Trouble)
QUOTE(Droop)
I disagree. Terrorism never meant anything... ever. Morality still has the same meaning and it is the singular concept that prevents us from being mere animals. (yes, I admit thinking we are more than mere animals may be delusional).

You mean "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." has not been employed and then manipulated by the state for the exercise of imperial power? You are saying it never meant anything??
Trouble its not that i didn't think that Terrorism had a definition. Only that Terror is the root word of Terrorism. and yet there is a contingency of unlawfulness for something to be terror-ism. Whose law? Huh? Whose law? Is it the law of the party being terrorized or is it the law of the party terrorizing? Is it law of the State or can it be religious law? Does it have to be a U.N. recognized nation or can it be any group with an identity. I mean its not that people fled screaming for their lives and people lost there lives when planes came a crashing on 9/11 that made it a terrorism. Oh no, its because it is illegal to crash planes into buildings. blink.gif

Bottom line i understand my mistake in the way i made my first statement won't do it again.

Back to Mrs P

I understand "personal"; I understand "political"; and I understand "propaganda". I even understand "political propaganda." What I don't understand is "personal political propaganda" Is it personal when i talk about a person, or is it personal when i am doing it by myself... or, like terrorism, does it exist on a "i know it when i see it" basis.

Now Football is a good example. So athletes come out the locker room and place their hands over their heart in a sign of positive political speech\propaganda... they don't say anything. Kaepernick takes a seat... doesn't say anything. Was that personal political propaganda\speech? I think so because many on the Right were unhappy. Was it personal because it was just him? Later during the year, whole teams started kneeling, with a few exceptions. So was the whole team making "personal political propaganda" Now i'm not so sure, but still conservatives didn't like it. In one case, the whole Pittsburgh Steelers team decided to stay in the locker room for the national anthem, except one. And it seems that conservatives LOVED this personal political speech of this one player in contrast to the team. Again, honestly i think the phrase "personal political propaganda" will boil down to political speech one does not like.

QUOTE
"Hey you're great! I'm great, we're all great" beats the hell out of "you suck!"
Yes, i guess it does. wink2.gif But "you suck, I suck, we all suck" is a necessary statement if you suck. You're great, I'm great, we're all great, is just cheerleading. Great for morale, not so great for fixing inequities.

This post has been edited by droop224: Sep 18 2018, 09:11 PM
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net2007
post Sep 19 2018, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 18 2018, 10:27 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 15 2018, 12:17 AM) *
You're probably right on that, actually, there's little question that on a day to day bases most behave differently than they do online or when they're fighting for a cause as a group.


I look at the internet overall as a large crowded highway or city. Think about the way people behave in a city, where anonymity is more assured, than a small town.
They're far far ruder in the city. They're far ruder on the large highways too. Sometimes they're so rude people go crazy and we call that road rage.

I was at a concert a few nights ago. It was really good....the band is super talented, my favorite in fact (Rise Against).
But they couldn't help using their venue to make a political statement mid-way, with a crowd they were assured would applaud.
I absolutely can't stand it when celebrities (of all varieties) do this with their paying captive audience.
It reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inscky6EyQ8

But even worse. The above is actually polite and discrete by comparison to the soapbox celebrity talker/kneeler.
Do it on your own time like the rest of us!

I've never heard of a CME event, Net. Interesting stuff!


I think there could something to all of that as well, both urban and rural environments have their share of problems but from personal experience, I've lived in both environments and have seen a contrast. There are no doubt others who haven't had the same experience I have here but from what I've seen in the city of Asheville, it would support your claim. A young disabled man was shot just a block from here at the gas station around the corner and when I was coming home a couple months ago there was a woman outside crying because, apparently, she got beat up, shot with a pellet rifle, then dragged behind the suspect's car. I wasn't there to witness the event but she was indeed scraped up and was bleeding from what looked like small bullet wounds. A couple of other residents and I got her some help but that situation could have been a lot worse, she's lucky.

Apart from the crime, I've met a few people that I thought were friends who turned out not to be for some very good reasons and once I attended a Mitt Romney rally at the civic center downtown and ran into some protesters. While waiting outside in line to get into the civic center the protesters didn't bother me, one of them was actually nice to me, but there was certainly drama that day. Walking home a lady hung out of her downtown apartment and flipped me off because she figured I attended the rally. She was right but I could have been a protester or someone walking to their car from work for all she knew considering her apartment didn't have a clear line of sight to the civic center. After she did that I told her I'm trying to be nice over here and she screamed something about free speech. I guess she was right on that and I didn't want the drama so I decided to leave it be, that's not the kind of situation where we could have had a civil conversation. My point would have been that her approach isn't the kind of free speech that'll reach her political opponents but I don't think that was her goal. tongue.gif

There have been very nice individuals who I've met here in Asheville as well but I think it's fair to say that I've seen more rudeness and drama living in the city than anywhere else I've lived. The world can be a frustrating and scary place sometimes, on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!

To touch just a little on celebrities and those who have a bigger megaphone to get their views circulated than your average joe does. Many influential figures do think that they're the ones with the answers and if only we thought like them, the world would be a better place and many of these same individuals have huge lapses in judgment on the topics they emphasize. I don't think all of their points are bad ones and I'm a very big free speech advocate, I think with some celebrities that it's the tone that's off-putting. The real question on my mind on this one is, are they reaching anyone apart from those who already think like them? There's reason to be skeptical of that in regards to celebrities who don't put a word in for fans who may not think like them.

Overall, there's so much divisiveness and so much in the way of games that are being played, it can at times be very disheartening, (perhaps many Democrats would agree in regards to some of the concerns that they have). The potential for another CME event is indeed crazy, I hope the government gets with it on preparing for that. There is no shortage of ways that the Universe and our own planet could kill us without fighting amongst ourselves being added to the mix. I just hope Americans and members of other nations can cooperate a little better, it'll never be perfect but we could improve for sure, there's a lot of untapped potential. I'd probably go crazy as it is if I weren't to look at areas where we are working together.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 19 2018, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 18 2018, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.


Not if I'm the paying customer.
If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works.
I'm not paying to be insulted.
If I don't like being insulted and I am insulted, I leave and take my money.
It's as simple as that. What insults me might not make anyone else feel insulted, true.
The player might say, "Kill Mrs P! Hate on Mrs P!"
I'd leave and stop paying...others might not. Some might like it. If enough people like it, he/she would stay in business. If enough people don't, he/she loses his or her audience.


QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 19 2018, 12:00 PM
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droop224
post Sep 19 2018, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 05:58 AM) *

QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 18 2018, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.


Not if I'm the paying customer.
If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works.
I'm not paying to be insulted.
If I don't like being insulted and I am insulted, I leave and take my money.
It's as simple as that. What insults me might not make anyone else feel insulted, true.
The player might say, "Kill Mrs P! Hate on Mrs P!"
I'd leave and stop paying...others might not. Some might like it. If enough people like it, he/she would stay in business. If enough people don't, he/she loses his or her audience.
See... now we are getting to a point where we see eye to eye. Just as an example, nothing frustrated me more than when Vet, or even worst people who never put on the uniform, would talk how Kaepernick's protest insulted or disrespected the troops, the flag, blah, blah, blah. No, it doesn't.

It doesn't insult the troops, because that's me. Nor does it insult America, because I'm American and he's American. But it did insult individuals. And their were troops that felt disrespected. But that's because they've tied their national identity to their egos. If you feel insulted because someone is saying something is wrong with the country... that's a "you" thing. I mean they are not insulting you. If i were to say something about Americans, like "Americans love money more than their own children" that's actually insulting an American on the basis of being an American. But in many cases we are dealing with Americans feeling insulted, because American institutions are being challenged.

I'm not telling an individual they "can't" be insulted, but please recognize its not them insulting you, its you being insulted. (to be honest, maybe that's not possible)

Other than that.. we started from "I absolutely can't stand it when celebrities (of all varieties) do this with their paying captive audience", afterwards we pointed out you absolutely can stand it as long as its positive to you. Then we moved to "I prefer no personal political propaganda when I am the paying customer." and now we are at "If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works."

Each of these, for me was a step in getting to what's really at issue, critiquing America as a whole.

QUOTE
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?

LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.



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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 19 2018, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 19 2018, 09:47 AM) *
LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.


How about everyone should be entitled to presumption of innocence? It's pretty key to living in a society governed by law.
If you think only black men have been impacted by this, you're not paying attention.
I do think the Bill Cosby case was a travesty.
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 19 2018, 04:40 PM
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On getting political during a gig:

The job is to play music that has emotional meaning, sing lyrics that evoke images -- hopefully that fit the music and vice versa -- and to connect with the audience. Any talking in there needs to fit as well.

Lots of performers pull it off and still get a few political points across. I prefer the Willie Nelson approach where some of his fans didn't know his politics until Willie gave money to a Democrat's campaign. Huh, the guy is liberal! Who would have thought?

Uh, most fans by far? Let's see, he's artsy-fartsy with his long hair, using a pick on a classical guitar with a hole worn through the top, has a strap that is macrame (red, white, blue too), sings about all sorts of stuff, writes his own songs, smokes a lot of weed. And he loves being on the road.

Did some of his fans miss that? Apparently so. I'm pretty sure that's because Willie knows who he is and doesn't need to say anything that isn't in his music. Well, other than "I don't care" in response to his rather small number of fans who have turned against him for being liberal.

Sometimes my daydreaming takes me to a stage in a large venue, and I try to say something political outside the music. The fantasy turns harsh quickly, always has. I think there's a lesson here:

Gigging is an experience that can be very good or very bad, so why on Earth would you want to encourage the bad? Is it ego? A feeling of personal power that gets away from you, forgetting that the power comes mostly from the audience? Talking politics would be like playing Christian folk music at an American Communist Party rally, or maybe Aretha Franklin's R-E-S-P-E-C-T at a Trump rally.

So it's a perfectly natural response to never pay for that again, aka musician's career suicide.

On the other hand, there are folks like Neil Young who make music that is mostly political. Still, there's a lot more to his music, and that is very important. Without the emotion he'd be unbearable. Just another crazy uncle at Thanksgiving.

The master at this is Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull), IMHO. The music stands on its own, the lyrics can be taken lots of different ways -- although Thick As A Brick is pretty clear.
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droop224
post Sep 19 2018, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 09:20 AM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 19 2018, 09:47 AM) *
LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.


How about everyone should be entitled to presumption of innocence? It's pretty key to living in a society governed by law.
If you think only black men have been impacted by this, you're not paying attention.
I do think the Bill Cosby case was a travesty.

Whoa!! mrsparkle.gif I think Black and Hispanics suffer disproportionately from a lack of "presumption of innocence", so bad we may not make it to court to see the judge... because I am paying attention. However that's as far as I would go. I'm with you presumption of innocence is the most important aspect when deciding to jail an individual. That said there just are certain things that if you get accused of you won't get the presumption of innocence... pedophilia, sexual assault, killing a cop, or serving in Germany's Army during WWII.

Well see what happens with Kavanaugh. i say 25% chance it affects his chance to sit as a judge and a 3 percent chance any real legal action comes out of it! w00t.gif


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net2007
post Sep 21 2018, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 07:58 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?


They've made a mockery of the whole process here. On this topic, Democrats in office have a history of hysterics and smear campaigns during the nominations of conservative judges but they've stepped things up a few notches this time around. We've seen an unprecedented amount of bickering, protest, and interruptions at the actual hearings. It was to the extent that I couldn't find another example of things ever being this chaotic during a Supreme Court nominee hearing. Other members are welcome to demonstrate that there's a more extreme case than Kavanaugh's hearing but I came up with nothing.

Apart from everything else, over a week ago they were complaining about unreleased documents, despite Kavanaugh having turned over more documents than the last five Supreme Court nominees combined....

http://checkyourfact.com/2018/08/09/fact-c...-supreme-court/

So some have tried to drive home any point they could no matter how absurd they look doing it. Cory Booker's "I am Spartacus moment" sure was a trip. Seems like a bad idea to say you're breaking the rules, when you're not actually breaking the rules. It's clear he wanted to portray himself as brave or perhaps the first in a new line of saviors to help protect us from Trump and his new Supreme Court Nominee pick. He had quite the interesting way of going about that, he had his back covered, so he lied and got caught doing it. Bad liars don't make good saviors, neither do good liars for that matter.

As for the move they pulled by waiting to reveal Christine Ford's allegation of attempted rape against Kavanaugh, you could be right that it'll be impossible to prove with how old the allegation is but, as you're hinting at, that's not stopping some from presuming he's guilty. I found this video from Ben Shapiro to be amusing, he also made a number of fair points. If interested start this at the 8:00 mark and watch for a few minutes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idPr8rfE3hk

I tend to like Shapiro, he'll do a little bit in the way of nitpicking but he's not afraid to do it to both sides, so he's conservative but will call out Trump or other conservatives when they're in the wrong which, in my eyes, helps a lot with credibility. I don't know if what Christine Ford is saying is true, perhaps someone did do something to her but we don't know the date, time, month, or location that this happened let alone if it was indeed Kavanaugh who committed the act, (assuming she was indeed assaulted). The eyewitness who was supposed to help substantiate her accusation is suggesting he doesn't know what she's talking about....

https://nypost.com/2018/09/19/kavanaughs-pr...never-at-party/

QUOTE
I understand that I have been identified by Dr. Christine Blasey Ford as the person she remembers as PJ who supposedly was present at the party she described in her statements to the Washington Post, Smyth says in the statement,

I am issuing this statement today to make it clear to all involved that I have no knowledge of the party in question; nor do I have any knowledge of the allegations of improper conduct she has leveled against Brett Kavanaugh.

Personally speaking, I have known Brett Kavanaugh since high school and I know him to be a person of great integrity, a great friend, and I have never witnessed any improper conduct by Brett Kavanaugh towards women


She's fuzzy on a lot of aspects of this and wouldn't testify, the Senate offered an open hearing, a closed hearing, they've offered to go to California to meet at a location closer to her, at one point there was talk of having a woman ask her questions and Democrats in office aren't mentioning anything about that to their supporters from what I've seen. The FBI investigation that they were trying to push for isn't even the kind of case that the FBI covers, yet they're pointing right back at Republicans for their lack of support for that effort as if Senate Democrats didn't turn this situation into a circus act from the outset. From what I understand, the FBI didn't touch this case because it's not a federal crime and there's no crime mentioned where the statue of limitations hasn't run out.

The latest demands being made now come with the promise that Christine Ford will testify, but not on Monday according to Fords attorney, after another delay and only in the case that Ford gets to be heard after Kavanaugh is heard. Typically, the one who's being accused responds to the accusations, not the other way around. I don't think they expect those conditions to be met, I think Democrats expect a vote to happen so they're setting unreasonable expectations at this point in the hopes that it will appear as if Republicans weren't willing to work together.

I feel like I ranted on this topic and I'm probably preaching to the choir, it's just that the level of distortion here is so extensive and multilayered that it's mind-boggling, same with the Russia collusion narrative that's being pushed. Many who are pursuing that have lied, broken long-standing guidelines, broken laws, and deceived the public in many ways. Few people would know with certainty right now what Trump's exact role was with Russia yet there are those who let on as if they know for a fact he's guilty, you don't have to dig deep to find wild unsubstantiated remarks on that topic. In some of the more extreme cases, I think people assume innocence or guilt because it's politically expedient to do so. That was one of Ben Shapiro's points in the video above and I think that's very applicable to both parties in a lot of respects. What some people will do with an unsubstantiated allegation is believe it if it helps them politically and dismiss it if doesn't, facts become secondary to image.

This post has been edited by net2007: Sep 22 2018, 12:19 AM
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