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> Israel v Hamas
AGiantBean
post Jan 4 2009, 07:01 AM
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Admittedly, this is a broad topic, but especially when considering the United States' ties with Israel and their current stakes in Hamas, it is something that could prove to be very important with regards to our foreign policy. That said...

Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?

If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?
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Zack
post Jan 4 2009, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(AGiantBean @ Jan 4 2009, 03:01 AM) *
Admittedly, this is a broad topic, but especially when considering the United States' ties with Israel and their current stakes in Hamas, it is something that could prove to be very important with regards to our foreign policy. That said...

Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?
Been there, done that, it's like a broken record. http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/

QUOTE
If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?
It seems everyone needs to ask the question, how would you solve the ME situation? I think it is more complex than just Hamas deciding to send a few thousands of rockets into Israel. Yesterday Israel warned Hezbollah, located in Lebanon being overwatched by the French UN peacekeeping force, don't even think about it! Iran is running this event, elections going on across the ME and the more hate that can be directed towards the US and Israel the better chance Iran has to be on the side of peace in the eyes of the ME and the world... propaganda, dead children so Israel-US bad innocent ME folks good. Convince the Iraqi Shiites to back Iranian backed clerics and topple the democratic government in Iraq and when the time is right attack Israel from Lebanon and Lebanon belongs to Iran through proxi.

Obama will be framed to be on the side of world opinion or the hated Israel, if he chooses world opinion he supports the loss of democracy in Iraq and Lebanon and loses all chances that Israel will be the one to bomb Iran leaving it up to Obama to "all options are on the table to assure Iran doesn't get a nuke". I think Obama will choose to support Israel just as Bush or he will fail in the ME and cause a greater ME War.

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Bikerdad
post Jan 4 2009, 05:41 PM
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Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?
Yes. Hamas should be obliterated. They are quite clear about their goals and their commitment to pursuing their goals, therefore, Israel should act upon both Hamas's stated goals and clear actions.

If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?
Yes.
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phaedrus
post Jan 4 2009, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE(AGiantBean @ Jan 4 2009, 02:01 AM) *
Admittedly, this is a broad topic, but especially when considering the United States' ties with Israel and their current stakes in Hamas, it is something that could prove to be very important with regards to our foreign policy. That said...


It's something that has been important to our foreign policy for at least 20 years.

QUOTE
Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?


They had a lot more provocation then we did to invade Afghanistan. We had one major attack but they get them everyday. If Palestine wants full recognition as a sovereign state they should act like one. Israel is fighting for the right to exist and while they are certainly not innocent in all this these terrorist organizations like Hamas disgust me.

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If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?


Yasser Arafat received the Noble Peace Prize for simply admitting that Israel had right to exist in peace and safety. In 1996 he said this:

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion... We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." — Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the PLO (in front of an Arab audience in Stockholm in 1996)


As long as the Palestinians do not recognize the right of Israel to exist there will be war. They pour bombs and bullets at one another because there are no clear boundaries, moral or physical. Unless Palestine recognizes Israel's boundaries there can be no peace and yes we should support a military response to unrelenting terrorist attacks. Israel gave up land and they got terrorism in return:

They got the territory and we got a mass of terrorism, 10-fold, anything that we experienced before, hitting the cities of Israel from terrorist organizations, organizing themselves, arming themselves, launching themselves from the Palestinian territories. (Prime Minister NETANYAHU, CBN interview)


Churchill told the British Parliament that Hitler wanted war not peace and they did not believe him, after Dunkirk it was different. These people don't want peace and my opinion is simply this, if they want war let them have it. Now I think it's time to consider whether or not Israel should have ever negotiated with them in the first place.

This post has been edited by phaedrus: Jan 4 2009, 08:07 PM
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CruisingRam
post Jan 4 2009, 08:28 PM
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Okay Phaedrus- your bias is showing here a bit- why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?

Let's see- to date, Israel is:

1) A completely socialist regime- goverment owns 98% of the land IIRC
2) Engaged and engages in long term ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial killings and torture
3) Engages in genocide of the indeginous population of the Palestine area (those pesky palestenians where there long before the influx of zionism and zionists)

How about, maybe, once, if America were as balanced with our treatment of Israel as we are with the rest of the ME, perhaps we wouldn't have some of the problems we have today?

How about a international boycott on arms and trade with Israel? How about stop giving them billions and billions of dollars? hmmm.gif

Maybe it is time for Israel to bend a bit, and allow the Palestenians that were forced from thier homes and ethnically cleansed to be given the same rights of return that I would enjoy as the father of two jewish children? hmmm.gif
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DaytonRocker
post Jan 4 2009, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Okay Phaedrus- your bias is showing here a bit- why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?


That is a distorted statement.

First, everybody in Israel is within 12 seconds of a bomb shelter. They have an advanced warning system that helps get everybody in a safe position when a launch is detected.

Secondly, Israel is not targeting civilians and the overwhelming percentage of "innocent civilians" were Hamas thugs. Even Hamas has admitted that.

Lastly, Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.

C'mon CR...you can do a lot better than that lame rhetoric.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jan 4 2009, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Okay Phaedrus- your bias is showing here a bit- why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?


Your bias is showing too. Where on earth did you come up with this number and what is the context? If Hamas is launching rockets from mosques and schools, then mosques and schools are legitimate military targets. When someone chooses to place a baby in a bunker and then cry "You hit my baby!" it's the person who placed the baby in the bunker I blame.

Per the questions, around a year ago Abu Hamza, the head of Islamic Jihad's rocket programme, explained that his goal was to draw Israel into a ground conflict inside the Gaza Strip so that his men would have the chance to "kill as many Zionists as possible". Now they have their wish. Let's see how it pans out for them.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jan 4 2009, 09:15 PM
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loreng59
post Jan 4 2009, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 04:28 PM) *
Okay Phaedrus- your bias is showing here a bit- why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?

Let's see- to date, Israel is:

1) A completely socialist regime- goverment owns 98% of the land IIRC
2) Engaged and engages in long term ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial killings and torture
3) Engages in genocide of the indeginous population of the Palestine area (those pesky palestenians where there long before the influx of zionism and zionists)

How about, maybe, once, if America were as balanced with our treatment of Israel as we are with the rest of the ME, perhaps we wouldn't have some of the problems we have today?

How about a international boycott on arms and trade with Israel? How about stop giving them billions and billions of dollars? hmmm.gif

Maybe it is time for Israel to bend a bit, and allow the Palestenians that were forced from thier homes and ethnically cleansed to be given the same rights of return that I would enjoy as the father of two jewish children? hmmm.gif

1) Israel is not a completely socialist regime - nor does the government own 98% of the land. Israel has many elements of socialism. Universal medicine, etc. but then again so does a majority of the Western World including Canada, UK, France, etc. About 8% of the land is privately held. The rest is held by the Jewish National Fund, the Catholic Church, the Waqf, and the Israeli government.

2) The ONLY ethnic cleansing the Israeli government has ever done, is removing JEWS from their homes. As for the extra-judicial killings I guess you mean taking out terrorists, crying me a river. Those individuals are war-criminals and yes Israel does kill them as soon as possible, so what. As for torture - compared to say the United States, sorry you have to clean up your act before addressing Arab fiction.

3) The invention the Palestinians by the KGB and the PLO happened in 1964. Hardly prior to the Jews that have been there for 5,000 years now. Genocide, now how about this the Arab population has tripled during this time period and that is genocide? The only ones committing genocide are the Arabs who daily announce their goal is to kill Jews. That is a war-crime.

Over 99% of the Israeli casualties are civilians, whereas some 75% of Arab casualties are terrorists and most Arab casualties have been inflicted by their own side. Your claim of 400 civilians has been refuted by the UN that puts the figure at less than 100. Considering the 10,000 Israeli troops and only 400 casualties total shows a remarkable restraint.

The 'Palestinians' were not forced from their homes. In fact over 90% of them are living where they were born, where their parents were born, where their grandparents were born. Whereas 25% of the Israeli population were forced from their homes. In 1948 Jordan and Egypt ethnically cleansed all Jews from their homes in Gaza and Judea and Samaria. Plus the 1,000,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries.

No other refugee group has EVER inherited refugee status. Over 10,000,000 Pakistanis and Indians lost their homes during the independence of both nation. How many today are refugees? Zero is the correct number. How many refugee groups have this 'right to return' besides the invented Palestinians. Zero is the correct number again. Israeli immigration policies are an internal matter. Though both Ireland and Germany have the type of policies for ethnic Irish and Germans.

As for billions, the PLO and Hamas receive the same amount of money to aid them as Israel does, about 3 billion this year. How about stop funding terrorism? That is a crime even here and the US is one of the largest offenders by giving hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to fund these terrorist groups.

To answer the questions:
Yes Israel should be invading and destroying the Islamic Fascist regime of Hamas. Hamas has launched over 100,000 rockets, plus an equal number of mortar attacks at Israeli civilians with the intent of genocide. Under Article 51 of the UN Charter Israel has the right to respond and use all force required to put an end to all attacks.

The US should stay out of the entire affair and let the two groups get this done with.

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DaytonRocker
post Jan 4 2009, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jan 4 2009, 04:15 PM) *
Per the questions, around a year ago Abu Hamza, the head of Islamic Jihad's rocket programme, explained that his goal was to draw Israel into a ground conflict inside the Gaza Strip so that his men would have the chance to "kill as many Zionists as possible". Now they have their wish. Let's see how it pans out for them.


Actually, all the things the Pal supporters think should be done CAN'T be done per the principles of the Hamas Charter (highlight mine):

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Hamas is getting what it asked for. They don't care one whit about the costs of Palestinian lives unless they can use it to get people to feel sorry for them. Hamas is the face of evil. Period.

This post has been edited by DaytonRocker: Jan 4 2009, 09:27 PM
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Coaster
post Jan 4 2009, 10:00 PM
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Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?

Has anybody come up with a way of stemming the rocket attacks from Gaza other than this? I, a Jewish Zionist, will say that Israel shares some of the blame for the current escalation of the eternal mess that is Israel v. Palestinians. Why did they have to have such a stringent blockade? Why did they cut off food, power, water, and transportation continually?

If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?

We need to be a bit more even handed. We need to insist on humanitarian aid going through to the Palestinians. We need to do what we can to make the Palestinians self sufficient. We need to insist on monitors and do what we can to eliminate attacks on Israel.

By the way, the so-called Right of Return has been duly exercised. The Jews returned to the land they held since way before the second century BC.

Question of my own: I'm 57; What are the chances of me seeing any real progress in the M.E. before I croak?

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moif
post Jan 4 2009, 10:01 PM
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Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?

Yes, though I'd advise more air strikes and artillery barrage before committing ground troops. The Gazan population's security is not worth one IDF soldier's life and I think Israel does itself a diservice to take too many precautions to molify international criticism from people who have never had to defend themselves from terrorism and who are themselves all too quick to call for violence against Israel.

The Israeli's being shot at multiple times per day by Hamas have my symapthies. The Palestinians have been given so many chances, especially the Gazans, and time and again they have chosen the path of conflict. I am not convinced by the scarf wearing masses screaming their hatred and filth at me, handing out flyers like this in my country and expecting my politicians to throw away millions of my tax kroners on their racist cess pit of a failed state.

Three days ago two Israeli's were gunned down by a Palestinian here in Denmark. The would be murderer has been arrested and his motive established. He wanted to kill Jews. When the news broke, the Muslim population of Denmark partied. A crowd of Muslims gathered outside the shopping centre where the shooting took place and cheered when the Israeli's were carried out on stretchers.

We saw the same thing after Mumbai. Muslims in Scandinavia cheering and laughing, festive at the spectacle of westerners and Jews being murdered and tortured. In Malmø the Muslims there got so carried away they rioted for two days and set off make shift IED's against the Swedish police and emergency services. Does this stuff make the evening news? No it doesn't. How long ago were the famous 'riots' in Paris? The Muslims there are still burning cars in large numbers. They torched 1,147 on New Years Eve. That doesn't make the headlines either but the good old BBC certainly makes sure to put pictures of bloodied Palestinians up alongside picures of IDF armoured units. No prizes for guessing which side the British multicultural elite is on. Annie Lennox and 'Red Ken' have made that clear for any one previously in doubt.

My city is so full of anti Jewish graffiti these days so its starting to look like 1939 rather than 2009 and all across Europe, socialists like the Dutch MP Harry van Bommel (see here) are calling for boykott and intifada against Israel, marching alongside Muslims, not just Palestinians, who are openly calling for the Jews to be returned to the gas chambers. The same thing is happening in the USA.

These people are our enemy, and when I say 'our' I mean the free people of the democratic world.


If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?

Yes, all western democratic nations have an obligation to support Israel. The best way to do this would be to block any UN resolution designed to interfere with Israel's right to defend itself.

Getting rid of the UN and replacing it with a democratic replacement is also a good idea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



QUOTE(Cruising Ram)
Why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?
Because Hamas fired first. Israel pulled out of Gaza, they kept to the peace treaty. It was Hamas that violated it first and began firing rockets at Israel's civilian population. They did this because they want war. They spent the whole time during the cease fire building up their stock piles, learning from Hizb'Allah as how to tackle the IDF.

As for the 400 innocent dead, Hamas doesn't even make such a bogus claim so why do you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival - WS Churchill
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jan 4 2009, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE(Coaster @ Jan 4 2009, 05:00 PM) *
Has anybody come up with a way of stemming the rocket attacks from Gaza other than this? I, a Jewish Zionist, will say that Israel shares some of the blame for the current escalation of the eternal mess that is Israel v. Palestinians. Why did they have to have such a stringent blockade? Why did they cut off food, power, water, and transportation continually?


Could you please elaborate on the above? Why exactly would Israel have an obligation to provide utilities to Hamastan? Does South Korea have an obligation to provide utilities to KJI too?
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Coaster
post Jan 4 2009, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jan 4 2009, 04:29 PM) *
Could you please elaborate on the above? Why exactly would Israel have an obligation to provide utilities to Hamastan? Does South Korea have an obligation to provide utilities to KJI too?

Israel gave up Gaza, a narrow strip surrounded by mostly the Mediterranean and Israel. It was supposed to be a homeland, or part of the homeland for the Palestinians. The trouble is it's not survivable. They lack power and clean water. Do you think the Palestinians can make the desert bloom on their own? What do you think they are? Jews?

Idealism: Brought to you by the 60's.

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phaedrus
post Jan 4 2009, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Okay Phaedrus- your bias is showing here a bit- why is it a 'terrorist" attack when Palestine kills, oh, maybe 4 isrealis- or injures them slightly- but okay when Israel kills over 400 innocent civilians?


Playing fast and loose with the facts again I see, the solution is simple enough, Palestinians should stop firing rockets into Israel. Israel will bargain for peace but all they are getting is terrorism. Hamas can stop it themselves or Israel will be forced to defend itself, now Israel is a war with Palestine and people are getting hurt, it's horrible but that's what happens.



QUOTE
Let's see- to date, Israel is:

1) A completely socialist regime- goverment owns 98% of the land IIRC


So is most of the Middle East, being socialistic isn't a bad thing in my book, it just doesn't make good sense. By the way, they probably have one of the best health care systems in the world, socialism isn't always bad.

QUOTE
2) Engaged and engages in long term ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial killings and torture


Their enemies hate them simply because they are Jews, has that been lost on you? I have yet to see anything coming out of Israel indicating that they are into some kind of ethnic cleansing. What I am seeing is a sovereign nation being relentlessly attacked by psychopathic extremists who are drowning themselves in blood lust. As the ACDC song goes, you want blood you got it.

QUOTE
3) Engages in genocide of the indeginous population of the Palestine area (those pesky palestenians where there long before the influx of zionism and zionists)


Who cares when they got there, Israel was a nation long before there was such a thing as Palestine. Where do you want the Israelis to go? They didn't invade Palestine and they didn't just take their country by attrition. They wouldn't even be in Jerusalem if not for the fact that they were invaded, but they were and they are not going anywhere.

Look, if the bloodshed is going to stop it will only be because the two sides learn to respect one another's boundaries, I don't think the Palestinians can without sever military reprisals for their constant terrorist attacks.

QUOTE
How about, maybe, once, if America were as balanced with our treatment of Israel as we are with the rest of the ME, perhaps we wouldn't have some of the problems we have today?


Balanced? You mean like in the Gulf War when Israel was constantly under attack and could not retaliate against the aggressors? I say let them defend themselves and support anyone who actually has the courage to fight terrorism.

QUOTE
How about a international boycott on arms and trade with Israel? How about stop giving them billions and billions of dollars? hmmm.gif


To what end? A little bit of trivia you might find interesting:

According to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report, the PLO was "the richest of all terrorist organizations", with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc." The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world (Wikipedia)

Maybe we wouldn't have to support Israel so much if there was not so much state sponsored terrorism pouring out of the Middle East.

QUOTE
Maybe it is time for Israel to bend a bit, and allow the Palestenians that were forced from thier homes and ethnically cleansed to be given the same rights of return that I would enjoy as the father of two jewish children? hmmm.gif


They gave them Gaza and in return they had every right to expect peace but they got a ten fold increase in terrorism. Maybe if Hamas didn't launch 1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells in 2008 it would not be necessary for Israel to retaliate. hmmm.gif

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loreng59
post Jan 4 2009, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE(Coaster @ Jan 4 2009, 06:52 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jan 4 2009, 04:29 PM) *
Could you please elaborate on the above? Why exactly would Israel have an obligation to provide utilities to Hamastan? Does South Korea have an obligation to provide utilities to KJI too?

Israel gave up Gaza, a narrow strip surrounded by mostly the Mediterranean and Israel. It was supposed to be a homeland, or part of the homeland for the Palestinians. The trouble is it's not survivable. They lack power and clean water. Do you think the Palestinians can make the desert bloom on their own? What do you think they are? Jews?

Idealism: Brought to you by the 60's.

No kidding it's not survivable. The Arabs were given the greenhouses, homes and synagogues of the ethnically cleansed Jews and their first action was what? They totally destroyed them.

There is near no water in Gaza. Israel supplies about 99% of their water. Why should they do that, these people are attempting genocide? They supply 75% of their power. Why should they? Food, fuel and medicine all come through Israel, but not Egypt, I wonder why. Israel gives them free medical care which they in turn attempt to blow up.

Even with Judea and Samaria there is not enough land to have a viable state, and that is only if Israel is divided in two and gives away their center so the two parts aren't separated, and that isn't going to happen. So there is two non-viable terrorist states that are 50 km apart.

They can never be self-sufficient even if they ever attempted to do so.
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CruisingRam
post Jan 5 2009, 12:43 AM
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Possibly the biggest mistake in human history was to restart a country that has not existed in 2000 years. Now we are dealing with it, and probably will until some arab state comes up with a nuke or six and starts a nuclear shooting war there. Just a matter of time.

Prior to 1900, Jews were a very tiny minority in the transJordon/Palestine area. They moved out the people living there, and established a homeland for a poeple that hadn't been a country in over 2000 years. They did it in a very, very volitile area. Zionists wouldn't accept a homeland anywhere else, and now we have to deal with the consequences. OF COURSE the folks in that area won't recognize Israel- why should they- they are being forced at the point of a gun. Wasn't like they were invited by the locals to settle and take over the area or anything. Established the nation through terrorism, in fact. Gave terrorists positions in goverment (Menachim Begin anyone?)

Now, the Arabs in that area have learned from the Zionists, out breed the Israelis, keep things unstable, never surrender, keep up the terroristic attacks, at any cost.

Some here has suggested we "pull back" and allow them to fight it out- sure, I agree, let's arm the arabs first with the same firepower, maybe even quite a bit more, so Palestinians have something other than rocks and small arms to fight with. rolleyes.gif

This entire exercise is futile. Hamas will emerge stronger than ever because of Palestenian civilian casualties will be (rightly) blamed in the IDF.

512 and counting right now:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_...el_palestinians

Since the ground assault began, 64 Palestinian civilians have been killed, said Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, a Health Ministry official. The new deaths brought the death toll in the Gaza Strip to more than 512 since Dec. 27. The tally is based on figures from the U.N. and Palestinian health officials as well as a count by The Associated Press.



I am not "for" the Israelis OR the Palestinians or any other ME group- I see the whole region as a bunch of savages bent on destroying each other for eternity, possibly the entire world too.

If it were up to me, the Israeli goverment would cease to exist tomorow, and the entire area come under international control.

Heck, I would probably go Solomon's sword on them- fine, you can't live together? Then no one wil lhave it- evacuate the entire country, sew the place with radioactive waste until the entire country is unihabitable. If you want it so bad, live there for a few weeks before you die.

Israel and the Arab countries will not give one iota to the other side, until the entire place goes up in mushroom clouds anyway.

I mean, seriously- does ANYONE think that this invasion of Gaza will help ANYTHING for ANY length of time?

Evacuate all Jews to the US. We like Jews here. WE have more Jews here than Israel has. Make this thier homeland for all I care.

It is pure folly to start up a country that has been dead for 2000 years in a region that already has a population living there, and let that country be founded by terrorist as well. rolleyes.gif

I see no end to this EVER that doesn't end up with a bunch of mushroom clouds. sad.gif
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BaphometsAdvocat...
post Jan 5 2009, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 07:43 PM) *
This entire exercise is futile. Hamas will emerge stronger than ever because of Palestenian civilian casualties will be (rightly) blamed in the IDF.

512 and counting right now:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_...el_palestinians

Since the ground assault began, 64 Palestinian civilians have been killed, said Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, a Health Ministry official. The new deaths brought the death toll in the Gaza Strip to more than 512 since Dec. 27. The tally is based on figures from the U.N. and Palestinian health officials as well as a count by The Associated Press.

The only thing Hamas likes more than a dead Jew is a dead Palestinian.

Israel calls the enemy non combatants up in advance to TELL them to leave!

QUOTE
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the past three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.

This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.


From here
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TinFoilLiberal
post Jan 5 2009, 01:23 AM
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Should Israel be invading Palestine and engaging Hamas?

I am of two minds on this subject and I straddling the fence (its terrible on your pants). When it comes down to it if your people or your country is attacked you must retaliate or remove the hostile threat. In this sense I understand where Israel is coming from. The flip side is that in this conflict Israel is not a totally innocent party. They are as complicit as Hamas. I want to support the Palestinians as I think they are people oppressed by a super power. But you can't go around shooting rockets into Israel and not expect a reaction. You can't have a position that they don't have the right to exist. The fact is they do they have bigger guns and violence only ends badly for you. 4 Israelis killed versus 400-500 Palestinians killed. Do the math Non-Violence and negotiation will get you much further.

If so, should the United Sates advocate and support their efforts?
In my opinion America needs to withdraw from the whole conflict. Were I in charge I'd withdraw all support from both parties. As a taxpayer I'm tired of seeing our dollars going into the black hole that is the dream of Peace in the Middle East. That money could go to infrastructure, schools, etc.

PS. I'm also a bit tired of the double standards here. Israel gets blasted for killing civilians and not targeting military installations only; but somehow its forgotten that Hamas is targeting anyone.
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JohnfrmCleveland
post Jan 5 2009, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jan 4 2009, 07:43 PM) *
Possibly the biggest mistake in human history was to restart a country that has not existed in 2000 years. Now we are dealing with it, and probably will until some arab state comes up with a nuke or six and starts a nuclear shooting war there. Just a matter of time.

Prior to 1900, Jews were a very tiny minority in the transJordon/Palestine area. They moved out the people living there, and established a homeland for a poeple that hadn't been a country in over 2000 years. They did it in a very, very volitile area. Zionists wouldn't accept a homeland anywhere else, and now we have to deal with the consequences. OF COURSE the folks in that area won't recognize Israel- why should they- they are being forced at the point of a gun. Wasn't like they were invited by the locals to settle and take over the area or anything. Established the nation through terrorism, in fact. Gave terrorists positions in goverment (Menachim Begin anyone?)


But CR, the West just didn't roll in and take over - the Ottoman Empire was on the wrong side in WWI, and they paid the price in territory, like many losing combatants do. I agree that it wasn't a wise move to create the modern Israel, but at least there was justification for taking some land. Eventually, the "Palestinians" are going to have to stop complaining about this lost territory and stop treating it like they still own it. To the victor go the spoils.

This post has been edited by JohnfrmCleveland: Jan 5 2009, 01:31 AM
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DaytonRocker
post Jan 5 2009, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE(TinFoilLiberal @ Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM) *
4 Israelis killed versus 400-500 Palestinians killed. Do the math Non-Violence and negotiation will get you much further.


Did you even bother to read any of the preceding posts before stating your position? Both your points have been addressed, but I challenge you to dispute them.
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