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> Planning Ahead, Keeping AD's community together
net2007
post Jun 13 2018, 06:03 PM
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I was wondering if anybody else here thinks it's a good idea to have a backup plan just in case Americasdebate goes down. It's possible that Mike and Jamie will come back with further plans for AD because they're continuing to pay for the cost of the domain and thus far when the website has gone down, as it did a few days ago, they've worked to fix the problem but in the scenario that we do lose AD, we'd lose what's left of our debating community and some of us have debated here for over a decade. Personally, I've debated here since 2007, have gotten to know some of the members, and developed a lot of my debating skills here so from my perspective it'd be unfortunate to see that happen. AD is also an interesting concept in itself, I think America should have a dedicated spot to debate a range of issues, including with members of other nations when they find an interest.

As for what we'd plan to do if the website goes down, I'm open to any ideas. Perhaps we could think of a common place we'd meet in the scenario that the website goes down, or exchange contact information and figure that out at a later time, there's a number of things that we could do.

This post has been edited by net2007: Jun 13 2018, 06:06 PM
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droop224
post Sep 18 2018, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.

QUOTE
Well, team spirit is narcissistic too isn't it? "We're (team x) look how great we are!"
YES, it is!! But I bet you would feel fine if I said Conservatives generally show more "team spirit" than liberals, but be offended if I were to say Conservatives generally are more narcissistic than liberals. You get where I'm going with that?

QUOTE
Should the player use this platform to protest his own team or own sponsoring state rather than the country as a whole?
Think that would go over well? Should it go over well?
The further left the less they would care, the further right the more they would give a crap. (with exceptions)

QUOTE
Wrong. I prefer no personal political propaganda when I am the paying customer.
Obviously some political speech is more insulting than other political speech.
"Hey you're great! I'm great, we're all great" beats the hell out of "you suck!"

It that REALLY so hard to understand?
Honestly, yes and no. It's real easy to understand what you said, its really hard to figure out how you would apply it and how your application would be replicated to someone else.

Segue to Trouble

QUOTE(Trouble)
QUOTE(Droop)
I disagree. Terrorism never meant anything... ever. Morality still has the same meaning and it is the singular concept that prevents us from being mere animals. (yes, I admit thinking we are more than mere animals may be delusional).

You mean "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." has not been employed and then manipulated by the state for the exercise of imperial power? You are saying it never meant anything??
Trouble its not that i didn't think that Terrorism had a definition. Only that Terror is the root word of Terrorism. and yet there is a contingency of unlawfulness for something to be terror-ism. Whose law? Huh? Whose law? Is it the law of the party being terrorized or is it the law of the party terrorizing? Is it law of the State or can it be religious law? Does it have to be a U.N. recognized nation or can it be any group with an identity. I mean its not that people fled screaming for their lives and people lost there lives when planes came a crashing on 9/11 that made it a terrorism. Oh no, its because it is illegal to crash planes into buildings. blink.gif

Bottom line i understand my mistake in the way i made my first statement won't do it again.

Back to Mrs P

I understand "personal"; I understand "political"; and I understand "propaganda". I even understand "political propaganda." What I don't understand is "personal political propaganda" Is it personal when i talk about a person, or is it personal when i am doing it by myself... or, like terrorism, does it exist on a "i know it when i see it" basis.

Now Football is a good example. So athletes come out the locker room and place their hands over their heart in a sign of positive political speech\propaganda... they don't say anything. Kaepernick takes a seat... doesn't say anything. Was that personal political propaganda\speech? I think so because many on the Right were unhappy. Was it personal because it was just him? Later during the year, whole teams started kneeling, with a few exceptions. So was the whole team making "personal political propaganda" Now i'm not so sure, but still conservatives didn't like it. In one case, the whole Pittsburgh Steelers team decided to stay in the locker room for the national anthem, except one. And it seems that conservatives LOVED this personal political speech of this one player in contrast to the team. Again, honestly i think the phrase "personal political propaganda" will boil down to political speech one does not like.

QUOTE
"Hey you're great! I'm great, we're all great" beats the hell out of "you suck!"
Yes, i guess it does. wink2.gif But "you suck, I suck, we all suck" is a necessary statement if you suck. You're great, I'm great, we're all great, is just cheerleading. Great for morale, not so great for fixing inequities.

This post has been edited by droop224: Sep 18 2018, 09:11 PM
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net2007
post Sep 19 2018, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 18 2018, 10:27 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 15 2018, 12:17 AM) *
You're probably right on that, actually, there's little question that on a day to day bases most behave differently than they do online or when they're fighting for a cause as a group.


I look at the internet overall as a large crowded highway or city. Think about the way people behave in a city, where anonymity is more assured, than a small town.
They're far far ruder in the city. They're far ruder on the large highways too. Sometimes they're so rude people go crazy and we call that road rage.

I was at a concert a few nights ago. It was really good....the band is super talented, my favorite in fact (Rise Against).
But they couldn't help using their venue to make a political statement mid-way, with a crowd they were assured would applaud.
I absolutely can't stand it when celebrities (of all varieties) do this with their paying captive audience.
It reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inscky6EyQ8

But even worse. The above is actually polite and discrete by comparison to the soapbox celebrity talker/kneeler.
Do it on your own time like the rest of us!

I've never heard of a CME event, Net. Interesting stuff!


I think there could something to all of that as well, both urban and rural environments have their share of problems but from personal experience, I've lived in both environments and have seen a contrast. There are no doubt others who haven't had the same experience I have here but from what I've seen in the city of Asheville, it would support your claim. A young disabled man was shot just a block from here at the gas station around the corner and when I was coming home a couple months ago there was a woman outside crying because, apparently, she got beat up, shot with a pellet rifle, then dragged behind the suspect's car. I wasn't there to witness the event but she was indeed scraped up and was bleeding from what looked like small bullet wounds. A couple of other residents and I got her some help but that situation could have been a lot worse, she's lucky.

Apart from the crime, I've met a few people that I thought were friends who turned out not to be for some very good reasons and once I attended a Mitt Romney rally at the civic center downtown and ran into some protesters. While waiting outside in line to get into the civic center the protesters didn't bother me, one of them was actually nice to me, but there was certainly drama that day. Walking home a lady hung out of her downtown apartment and flipped me off because she figured I attended the rally. She was right but I could have been a protester or someone walking to their car from work for all she knew considering her apartment didn't have a clear line of sight to the civic center. After she did that I told her I'm trying to be nice over here and she screamed something about free speech. I guess she was right on that and I didn't want the drama so I decided to leave it be, that's not the kind of situation where we could have had a civil conversation. My point would have been that her approach isn't the kind of free speech that'll reach her political opponents but I don't think that was her goal. tongue.gif

There have been very nice individuals who I've met here in Asheville as well but I think it's fair to say that I've seen more rudeness and drama living in the city than anywhere else I've lived. The world can be a frustrating and scary place sometimes, on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!

To touch just a little on celebrities and those who have a bigger megaphone to get their views circulated than your average joe does. Many influential figures do think that they're the ones with the answers and if only we thought like them, the world would be a better place and many of these same individuals have huge lapses in judgment on the topics they emphasize. I don't think all of their points are bad ones and I'm a very big free speech advocate, I think with some celebrities that it's the tone that's off-putting. The real question on my mind on this one is, are they reaching anyone apart from those who already think like them? There's reason to be skeptical of that in regards to celebrities who don't put a word in for fans who may not think like them.

Overall, there's so much divisiveness and so much in the way of games that are being played, it can at times be very disheartening, (perhaps many Democrats would agree in regards to some of the concerns that they have). The potential for another CME event is indeed crazy, I hope the government gets with it on preparing for that. There is no shortage of ways that the Universe and our own planet could kill us without fighting amongst ourselves being added to the mix. I just hope Americans and members of other nations can cooperate a little better, it'll never be perfect but we could improve for sure, there's a lot of untapped potential. I'd probably go crazy as it is if I weren't to look at areas where we are working together.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 19 2018, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 18 2018, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.


Not if I'm the paying customer.
If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works.
I'm not paying to be insulted.
If I don't like being insulted and I am insulted, I leave and take my money.
It's as simple as that. What insults me might not make anyone else feel insulted, true.
The player might say, "Kill Mrs P! Hate on Mrs P!"
I'd leave and stop paying...others might not. Some might like it. If enough people like it, he/she would stay in business. If enough people don't, he/she loses his or her audience.


QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Sep 19 2018, 12:00 PM
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droop224
post Sep 19 2018, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 05:58 AM) *

QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 18 2018, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE
Cool, Droop! I guess it would be fine with you if you were in the hospital and your nurse chose to use her platform to lecture you on Obama's "failed policies".
Or a restaurant...I'm sure a waiter that offers said lecture would receive appreciation and an extra big gratuity from you.
LOL no it would not be fine with me. I'm in the hospital... I'm hungry... But that's missing the "huge" point. If you are at a place where I think its appropriate for you to tell me how great our nation is, then you are in a place where you can tell me where America sucks.


Not if I'm the paying customer.
If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works.
I'm not paying to be insulted.
If I don't like being insulted and I am insulted, I leave and take my money.
It's as simple as that. What insults me might not make anyone else feel insulted, true.
The player might say, "Kill Mrs P! Hate on Mrs P!"
I'd leave and stop paying...others might not. Some might like it. If enough people like it, he/she would stay in business. If enough people don't, he/she loses his or her audience.
See... now we are getting to a point where we see eye to eye. Just as an example, nothing frustrated me more than when Vet, or even worst people who never put on the uniform, would talk how Kaepernick's protest insulted or disrespected the troops, the flag, blah, blah, blah. No, it doesn't.

It doesn't insult the troops, because that's me. Nor does it insult America, because I'm American and he's American. But it did insult individuals. And their were troops that felt disrespected. But that's because they've tied their national identity to their egos. If you feel insulted because someone is saying something is wrong with the country... that's a "you" thing. I mean they are not insulting you. If i were to say something about Americans, like "Americans love money more than their own children" that's actually insulting an American on the basis of being an American. But in many cases we are dealing with Americans feeling insulted, because American institutions are being challenged.

I'm not telling an individual they "can't" be insulted, but please recognize its not them insulting you, its you being insulted. (to be honest, maybe that's not possible)

Other than that.. we started from "I absolutely can't stand it when celebrities (of all varieties) do this with their paying captive audience", afterwards we pointed out you absolutely can stand it as long as its positive to you. Then we moved to "I prefer no personal political propaganda when I am the paying customer." and now we are at "If I'm the paying customer and he/she is the employee (especially the entertainer, aka the person paid to please the audience...in whatever capacity that might be), it's my decision what I want to hear. If I don't like it, I leave and take my money elsewhere. That is how it works."

Each of these, for me was a step in getting to what's really at issue, critiquing America as a whole.

QUOTE
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?

LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.



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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 19 2018, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 19 2018, 09:47 AM) *
LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.


How about everyone should be entitled to presumption of innocence? It's pretty key to living in a society governed by law.
If you think only black men have been impacted by this, you're not paying attention.
I do think the Bill Cosby case was a travesty.
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 19 2018, 04:40 PM
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On getting political during a gig:

The job is to play music that has emotional meaning, sing lyrics that evoke images -- hopefully that fit the music and vice versa -- and to connect with the audience. Any talking in there needs to fit as well.

Lots of performers pull it off and still get a few political points across. I prefer the Willie Nelson approach where some of his fans didn't know his politics until Willie gave money to a Democrat's campaign. Huh, the guy is liberal! Who would have thought?

Uh, most fans by far? Let's see, he's artsy-fartsy with his long hair, using a pick on a classical guitar with a hole worn through the top, has a strap that is macrame (red, white, blue too), sings about all sorts of stuff, writes his own songs, smokes a lot of weed. And he loves being on the road.

Did some of his fans miss that? Apparently so. I'm pretty sure that's because Willie knows who he is and doesn't need to say anything that isn't in his music. Well, other than "I don't care" in response to his rather small number of fans who have turned against him for being liberal.

Sometimes my daydreaming takes me to a stage in a large venue, and I try to say something political outside the music. The fantasy turns harsh quickly, always has. I think there's a lesson here:

Gigging is an experience that can be very good or very bad, so why on Earth would you want to encourage the bad? Is it ego? A feeling of personal power that gets away from you, forgetting that the power comes mostly from the audience? Talking politics would be like playing Christian folk music at an American Communist Party rally, or maybe Aretha Franklin's R-E-S-P-E-C-T at a Trump rally.

So it's a perfectly natural response to never pay for that again, aka musician's career suicide.

On the other hand, there are folks like Neil Young who make music that is mostly political. Still, there's a lot more to his music, and that is very important. Without the emotion he'd be unbearable. Just another crazy uncle at Thanksgiving.

The master at this is Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull), IMHO. The music stands on its own, the lyrics can be taken lots of different ways -- although Thick As A Brick is pretty clear.
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droop224
post Sep 19 2018, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 09:20 AM) *
QUOTE(droop224 @ Sep 19 2018, 09:47 AM) *
LOL i have to admit that i wish Blacks could get this same level commitment from the Right on issues regarding the "presumption of innocence". I can dream. Bad news for Kavanaugh, they were just was able to convict Bill Cosby. Good news for Kavanaugh, he's White. That's not completely fair, Clarence got away with it too.


How about everyone should be entitled to presumption of innocence? It's pretty key to living in a society governed by law.
If you think only black men have been impacted by this, you're not paying attention.
I do think the Bill Cosby case was a travesty.

Whoa!! mrsparkle.gif I think Black and Hispanics suffer disproportionately from a lack of "presumption of innocence", so bad we may not make it to court to see the judge... because I am paying attention. However that's as far as I would go. I'm with you presumption of innocence is the most important aspect when deciding to jail an individual. That said there just are certain things that if you get accused of you won't get the presumption of innocence... pedophilia, sexual assault, killing a cop, or serving in Germany's Army during WWII.

Well see what happens with Kavanaugh. i say 25% chance it affects his chance to sit as a judge and a 3 percent chance any real legal action comes out of it! w00t.gif


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net2007
post Sep 21 2018, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 19 2018, 07:58 AM) *
QUOTE(net2007 @ Sep 19 2018, 01:43 AM) *
...on a different note than my situation what Democrats in office just did by holding onto a 36-year-old sexual assault allegation against Brett Kavanaugh was a sick move. This could have been mentioned weeks ago but they took an allegation that'll be hard to prove given how long ago it was, waited until all of their other obstruction attempts failed, then at the very last minute, in desperation, made this an issue. Whether or not the allegation is true, they're using the Me Too movement to push a political agenda. Worse still is that while Kavanaugh is willing to come to the table to speak about this, the Democrats won't budge without a lengthy FBI investigation that they know will delay the hearing until after the midterms and this says nothing of the fact that many of these same politicians haven't taken sexual assault allegations against Democrats seriously. What a mess!


It's unbelievable. It won't be hard to prove, it is impossible to prove after all this time. It's a waste of FBI resources to even try.
But the words from Sen. Hirono really got to me in particular. A sitting Senator, in a nation ruled by law, is arguing against presumption of innocence.
A Senator who is supposed to be upholding that law instead lectures the men of Congress and the nation that they should not expect proof.
They should just automatically believe a 35-year-old story just because a woman told it.
What if this was a murder story instead. Would Sen Hirono insist that we believe a woman today if she claimed who the murder was from 35 years ago, with no proof, just because she is a woman?


They've made a mockery of the whole process here. On this topic, Democrats in office have a history of hysterics and smear campaigns during the nominations of conservative judges but they've stepped things up a few notches this time around. We've seen an unprecedented amount of bickering, protest, and interruptions at the actual hearings. It was to the extent that I couldn't find another example of things ever being this chaotic during a Supreme Court nominee hearing. Other members are welcome to demonstrate that there's a more extreme case than Kavanaugh's hearing but I came up with nothing.

Apart from everything else, over a week ago they were complaining about unreleased documents, despite Kavanaugh having turned over more documents than the last five Supreme Court nominees combined....

http://checkyourfact.com/2018/08/09/fact-c...-supreme-court/

So some have tried to drive home any point they could no matter how absurd they look doing it. Cory Booker's "I am Spartacus moment" sure was a trip. Seems like a bad idea to say you're breaking the rules, when you're not actually breaking the rules. It's clear he wanted to portray himself as brave or perhaps the first in a new line of saviors to help protect us from Trump and his new Supreme Court Nominee pick. He had quite the interesting way of going about that, he had his back covered, so he lied and got caught doing it. Bad liars don't make good saviors, neither do good liars for that matter.

As for the move they pulled by waiting to reveal Christine Ford's allegation of attempted rape against Kavanaugh, you could be right that it'll be impossible to prove with how old the allegation is but, as you're hinting at, that's not stopping some from presuming he's guilty. I found this video from Ben Shapiro to be amusing, he also made a number of fair points. If interested start this at the 8:00 mark and watch for a few minutes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idPr8rfE3hk

I tend to like Shapiro, he'll do a little bit in the way of nitpicking but he's not afraid to do it to both sides, so he's conservative but will call out Trump or other conservatives when they're in the wrong which, in my eyes, helps a lot with credibility. I don't know if what Christine Ford is saying is true, perhaps someone did do something to her but we don't know the date, time, month, or location that this happened let alone if it was indeed Kavanaugh who committed the act, (assuming she was indeed assaulted). The eyewitness who was supposed to help substantiate her accusation is suggesting he doesn't know what she's talking about....

https://nypost.com/2018/09/19/kavanaughs-pr...never-at-party/

QUOTE
I understand that I have been identified by Dr. Christine Blasey Ford as the person she remembers as PJ who supposedly was present at the party she described in her statements to the Washington Post, Smyth says in the statement,

I am issuing this statement today to make it clear to all involved that I have no knowledge of the party in question; nor do I have any knowledge of the allegations of improper conduct she has leveled against Brett Kavanaugh.

Personally speaking, I have known Brett Kavanaugh since high school and I know him to be a person of great integrity, a great friend, and I have never witnessed any improper conduct by Brett Kavanaugh towards women


She's fuzzy on a lot of aspects of this and wouldn't testify, the Senate offered an open hearing, a closed hearing, they've offered to go to California to meet at a location closer to her, at one point there was talk of having a woman ask her questions and Democrats in office aren't mentioning anything about that to their supporters from what I've seen. The FBI investigation that they were trying to push for isn't even the kind of case that the FBI covers, yet they're pointing right back at Republicans for their lack of support for that effort as if Senate Democrats didn't turn this situation into a circus act from the outset. From what I understand, the FBI didn't touch this case because it's not a federal crime and there's no crime mentioned where the statue of limitations hasn't run out.

The latest demands being made now come with the promise that Christine Ford will testify, but not on Monday according to Fords attorney, after another delay and only in the case that Ford gets to be heard after Kavanaugh is heard. Typically, the one who's being accused responds to the accusations, not the other way around. I don't think they expect those conditions to be met, I think Democrats expect a vote to happen so they're setting unreasonable expectations at this point in the hopes that it will appear as if Republicans weren't willing to work together.

I feel like I ranted on this topic and I'm probably preaching to the choir, it's just that the level of distortion here is so extensive and multilayered that it's mind-boggling, same with the Russia collusion narrative that's being pushed. Many who are pursuing that have lied, broken long-standing guidelines, broken laws, and deceived the public in many ways. Few people would know with certainty right now what Trump's exact role was with Russia yet there are those who let on as if they know for a fact he's guilty, you don't have to dig deep to find wild unsubstantiated remarks on that topic. In some of the more extreme cases, I think people assume innocence or guilt because it's politically expedient to do so. That was one of Ben Shapiro's points in the video above and I think that's very applicable to both parties in a lot of respects. What some people will do with an unsubstantiated allegation is believe it if it helps them politically and dismiss it if doesn't, facts become secondary to image.

This post has been edited by net2007: Sep 22 2018, 12:19 AM
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droop224
post Oct 17 2018, 12:11 AM
Post #89


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Let me jump back into the fray a little to take on some issues and comments: (some things maybe I'll make a separate debate)

First, to all people in this discussion, the concept of over-generalizing continues. Here are my two cents. It's not overgeneralizing if its true about the group. Hobbes, Net, Looms, etc. none of you are powerful (I think). I am not powerful. Our power comes a small part of a larger group. If a debater says conservatives support X, Y, or Z that doesn't mean they are being lazy. Just like you all understand individual responsibility, you all need to understand social responsibility. If the reason a law exists is that conservative support, then I am not overgeneralizing to lay it at the feet of conservatism. Now, does that mean every self-proclaimed conservative agrees with a said law? No, it does not. Does that mean every self-proclaimed liberal disagrees? No, it does not.

If it calls for debating you as an individual, I will. But if I am debating a policy or a national viewpoint that finds heavy support in a certain political party, then i may not want to make it about YOU. Am I debating YOU? No. I am debating with you. If you are a conservative there are consequences of following that philosophy, same as liberalism. In my case, gender/sexual orientation "equality" issues are issues that I may not be lockstep with when it comes to the current leftist platform. That being said I wouldn't say you are wrong to lay the fact that little boys are told they can be girls and start running on the girl's track team at the feet of a leftist such as myself. Now if one of the conservatives on this board blamed the left, even though I am part of the left and disagree, i wouldn't go, "What are you talking about, I don't agree" Because whether I agree with it or not personally, the politics that I support are clearly supportive of it. That called "owning my collective sh-stuff", I think conservatives generally don't want to own their collective sh-stuff. It likely seems counter-intuitive to them, IMO.


Many times I feel that conservatism is so wrapped up in individualism, the idea that they should have any collective responsibility must seem counterintuitive to themselves. I don't blame them per se; we are taught the collectivism as opposed to individualism. The more I read, the more I have come to believe that the two are not opposed but require concurrent effort to keep civilization balanced.


But, that being said, I'm going to lay sh-stuff at conservative's feet, even though this may not seem fair to you all. No Net, Hobbes, and others, that doesn't mean I'm debating myself, because I'm not debating your personal views. I'm debating, generally, against the prevailing conservative viewpoint. All conservatives aren't Republicans, all Republicans aren't conservative. I think the contrast is even starker when it comes to Democrats. All Democrats certainly aren't liberals, ESPECIALLY, politicians. America clearly leans "right" of politics on the national level to begin with.


Are all Republicans\Conservatives racist? No. Do racist feel welcomed in the Republican party? C'mon stop kidding yourselves, of course, they do. But you all, I mean "self-proclaimed conservatives and\or Republicans", don't want to own that sh-stuff. And it's just as insane as me a leftist pretending that transsexuals don't have a home in the Democratic party. Do not take the above statement to mean that "Droop acts or thinks there are no racists in the Democratic party" There are plenty of racists that are Democrats, especially among elderly White people. And don't even get me talking about politicians that are Democrats. But generally, with the exception of the geographical locations where it is heavily White and Democratic, does a politician get away with selling racism AND getting elected equally in both parties? I dare say they do not.


Even as an individual, we have to take some ownership in what our group represents. But, this should not be seen as my saying "an individual we should take responsibility for what other individuals in our group say or do" Let's say I'm at a Black Live Matter rally and there is an individual that says "PIGS should fry like bacon". I don't think I need to take ownership of that. Let's say the person saying this is the head of BLM or a sub-faction of BLM and I cheer this person on or it's part of their written doctrine. In this case, I DO need to take ownership in part because I support the group and this is part of the group message.


When the Republican party COURTS racists because they need their votes, if you consider yourself a Republican, you are a part of that. Now you may be a Republican, because you are religious, a nationalist, or you just love the way they treat rich people or any other number of reasons. Now if a racist goes off and hits someone with a car at a Racist rally that does not land at your feet. (by the way, I am completely aware that what I deem as "racist" is an opinion"


What does all this I wrote boil down to it and why is it important to this debate. When talking about moving on, you all need to really ask yourself, do you want a debate or do you want echo chambers. There are HUMAN costs for many of our political views. HUMAN costs are at the heart of political debate. I feel, maybe I'm wrong as if many of you want to debate in a manner so sterile that the human element of that which we debate is not recognized.


For instance, if we were to discuss Saudi-American relationships, we should only debate "hey here is the money we get for these arms deals and saving on oil trade" Its as if we should not look at something like Saudi's treatment of its own citizens and how their treatment of human beings lines up with our values.

Net

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That's not reflective of mindset where my perception of the world would be the only perception of the world or the only one that's correct. That's acknowledging variety and that others may have a different set of morals. One of the reasons my replies are often long is that I'm trying not to oversimplify things. I definitely don't always get it right and what I feel is right may not be right in every case but sometimes you're coming off as if you don't understand that this rule applies to you, frankly. Do you know the difference between the real world and your perception of the real world?
Nothing and everything. We are all limited to see the world through our own lens. But we can pretend to see the world through other lenses. Bottom line if you were as capable as you think to see the world thru other lenses, even if you just pretended for a short time, you'd be far more liberal. Taking the time to see how someone else must see the world is what makes liberals... liberal. Its what makes us chase equality so much.
<div>
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Remember your own standards on this, there's a difference between the real world and your own perception of the real world. I think one of the reasons you're getting confused at times is that you're taking things said by others, then rephrasing them, later to debate the rephrased version of what the other person said. In a sense, you're debating with yourself when you do that because you're creating your own characters to debate based on assumptions or oversimplifications.

I never made the claim that there's mass liberal support for violence, you're trying to debate that position but it's a position that came from you. So for one more clarification, you were making the argument that racism is abound on the right, I responded by agreeing, then later saying this....
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I talk about violence on the left in my writings a good bit because it's clear that it's a problem that's getting worse but I don't think violence is representative of the left or the right altogether, those responsible for the worst of it make up a minority on both sides.

As far as modern liberal support for violence goes, I don't think that's mainstream either but I would make the argument that not enough people are condemning that type of behavior or confronting it head on to help combat what's going on. Just as with conservatives people often find it easier to just ignore or downplay violence and other forms of uncivil behavior. I've gone over that some, I think it boils down to some assuming that an acknowledgment reflects poorly on their preferred group in a larger sense. Personally, I think it helps to acknowledge when things go wrong in a party or group, as long as some perspective is offered. Those who are doing things which cause damage are a drain on those around them so it's not such a bad idea to confront that because those types inhibit the healthy growth of political parties and groups.

Behavioral trends have been worsening on both sides, as far as comparing the left to the right or modern liberals to modern conservatives, (to be more specific to current times), I do think there's a small but noticeable difference between these groups, and I'm not just talking in terms of rudeness or profanity in protest.
Well... neither of us can stop what some random individual does. That's not the point. We control who and what we support. The people we support, the ideals we support, the groups we support, the philosophies we support, etc. What did Donald Trump say.. What did Obama say? Would you like to go clip for clip on who has said the more vile things? The left supported Obama; the Right supported Trump. And i can guess the rhetoric you are listening to... but maybe this little ">video provides perspective







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We've had this debate already, it sounds like you're making the argument that there are conservatives who support military action, and since military action often involves violence, conservatives, therefore, must be violent or be accepting of violence so long as it achieves goals. It's an argument that is applicable on some level, so I'm not going to say that the right's tie to the military doesn't count at all, but here again you're oversimplifying.
No, "oversimplification" would be.. "they hate us because we are free". There is a difference between over-simplification and simply stating something. And a point of nuance, it has nothing to do with the "right's tie to the military" its the "right's ties" to use military force. The ease in which the Right can be persuaded to war to be more exact, though persuade may not be the right word. How do you persuade people so willing to see other humans be killed in the name of necessity.

I'm not over simplifying anything. Just simply stating conservative support for violence against other Human Beings.

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Also, the military isn't as conservative as you let on either but I don't think that works against modern liberals who are involved in our military, often that says something positive about their character, though there are exceptions.....
LOL i did what? Look the military is run by many conservatives, but is made up of a quite diverse workforce, especially in the enlisted ranks. Its very nature will filter out many liberal minds in their first tour or two, but certainly not all. That being said... its a tool!! It does as its wielder wishes it to do. The wielders are not the generals and admirals.

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You might have picked up on the left having stronger ties with the military than some realize if you had actually absorbed some of my prior writings or writings of others for that matter, but I don't see much of that. You either don't take them seriously or skip huge portions of what's written. Here's how I phrased it before...
... says the civilian to the US Marine. Whatever you want to think.




QUOTE
Your argument comes off as if you look things this way... (military = bad, military = conservative, conservative = bad.) and I wouldn't be surprised that if we were to have this conversation again that you wouldn't have remembered or absorbed anything I wrote above. I don't think that's because you can't, I think it's because you choose not to. According to a lot of your writings, you view those who you deem "conservative" as intellectually and morally inferior so you're not learning much in these types of exchanges from what I can tell.
Your counter argument comes off as if you don't know the difference between supporting the military and supporting military action. Do you? Don't take that the wrong way, i've noticed that among Conservative circles they do tend to fall in these rhetorical traps. Like "you don't support the troops if you don't stand for the flag". Its just the weird way the Right puts things together i guess.




Trouble




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Congratulations for not being a psychopath. I can see where you are directing this line of thinking. Finding a base line and then associate your views as part of a baseline. Then, you'll flip this around by taking your view as a universal law yada yada ad naseum. This is how you'll attack the other group which by default means the conservatives. I'm not buying it.
Thank you, others should try it. "you gonna flip and flop it..." What the hell are you talking about? There are no UNIVERSAL laws, i don't think there are any UNIVERSAL laws... you are missing the point. My point is YOU who ever YOU are need a baseline for you to calibrate your moral compass. If you believe freedom is an important ideal but you align yourself with a slave owners because it makes you rich, something is corrupt with YOUR (not you personally) moral compass.

Looms

QUOTE
No. You misunderstand what I'm "hypersensitive" about. I don't stay up at night worrying if someone thinks I'm racist. I don't give a damn. I am, however, "hypersensitive" when it comes to doxing, getting people fired, political violence, deplatforming and moral panic. I'm also "hypersensitive" about murder. What of it? And what points did I deflect from, exactly? Where there any points buried beneath the blind zealotry and moral outrage that I was responding to? The fact that in your analogy I'M the one reacting with butt-hurt and hyperbole (those are the words you are looking for, you're welcome), whereas CR is being sane and rational, is just brilliant. I'm simply asking how far he would personally go, based on actual things that are done by people for the same reasons and ideology.
Trevor Noah had a good skit on this. How Trump, and the Right overall, make themselves the victims even when facts don't bear it out. Go look at some statistics. See what it means to be Black or Hispanic in this nation compared to White. pick something... income levels, incarceration, life expectancy... Now do some "rough rationalization" to see if the threat to White males getting fired matches up. Plainly spoken, you are scared on Jack-Sh-stuff when compared to what a minority has to maneuver through.

And just on a "keeping it real" note. I have not, nor will i ever act as if CruisingRam is sane.
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I assure you it was in no way unconscious. I quite consciously said what I said, although you're wrong that I put the category of "Americans" on the same level as the category of "people". They are not on the same level, "American" is a subcategory of "people" that takes precedence over other subcategories of people at the same level (that of a nation). And yes, being a citizen of a certain country aboslutely DOES afford you special priviledge within that country. For example...voting for the government of said country. Is this somehow countroversial? Also...now you're against group identity, all of a sudden? Your "tactical individualism" has been noted.
Look i admit that that being a citizen of a country allows you certain legal privileges. I wouldn't agree that being an American is a sub-class of people. I mean does being a Texan make you a different class of person that Hoosier?

Finally, nothing wrong with group identification, i'm just highly cognizant of how easy that devolves to group superiority when not watched carefully.

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"I reject your ism and substitute my own", said Droop, without the slightest hint of irony. Do you honestly not yet understand why I consider the left to be the equivalent of presuppositionalist Christians, and vehemently oppose them on the same grounds? No, I don't "practice" humanism, whatever that means...I consider it to be a vapid ideology. Why do you assume that everyone has to? Atheists don't practice Christianity, Buddhists don't practice Islam, etc...what of it? What I would really like to know, though, is where the supremacism comes into play.
No, I don't. Funny thing is i did think about it as i wrote it... thought about it and left it there. There is no irony. Your point makes my point.

Humanism
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Anyways, an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
That works for me. In everyday terms what does it mean. it means its harder to convince me to treat other human beings like crap than it is for some Nationalist, racist, etc.

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No, I think pragmatism is essential to conservative philosophy, and in many ways, that's what it's all about: pragmatism vs idealism.
Classic irrational conservative thinking. I'm pragmatic. I still have ideals. I think conservatives want to mask their lack of ideals for pragmatism... because it sounds better than saying, "I lack ideals!"
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Why is moral condemnation so important to you? Why are you so invested in it? "Can I do it yet? Can I? How about now?" What is this?
Its not. But conservatives being accountable for their political views is important to me. Is it important to you?

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Why do you? Or do you think that supporting policies that cause human suffering is exclusive to any one political position? Human suffering is unavoidable.
No, but in the case of America, supporting policies that cause human suffering is heavily weighted by the Right. But yeah... some suffering happens no matter what you do. Never confuse or conflate the Left's desire to alleviate human suffering for hubris that we think we can eliminate human suffering. But, we have enough compassion to ease the suffering of our fellow humans rather than enrich ourselves off of it, at least in terms of what we politically support.

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You are absolutely wrong. You cannot have liberty and equality, because every human is not the same. The only way you can actually attain equality is via totalitarianism.
That would be a fun philosophical debate. Agree to disagree for now

This post has been edited by droop224: Oct 17 2018, 12:22 AM
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net2007
post Yesterday, 05:30 AM
Post #90


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Hey Droop, I'll be able to reply to your last post before too long. Complicated and very difficult times for me here but I still have that urge to participate, it just may be a little bit.
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