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> Will George W. Bush ever leave office?, Democracy in danger?
Will George W. Bush ever leave office?
Will the next Presidential election be held on November 4, 2008?
Yes, of course. [ 47 ] ** [77.05%]
Yes, but we won't be able to trust the vote unless we rein in companies like Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia. [ 13 ] ** [21.31%]
No, BushCo will cancel elections in the name of national security. [ 1 ] ** [1.64%]
Will Bush leave office by noon on January 20, 2009?
Yes, there will be a normal, peaceful transition of power. [ 53 ] ** [86.89%]
Yes, but he'll actually be removed by impeachment before then. [ 3 ] ** [4.92%]
No, Bush will not voluntarily relinquish power. [ 5 ] ** [8.20%]
Total Votes: 65
  
Jobius
post Jul 22 2007, 07:38 PM
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In another topic, DaffyGrl makes a comment that deserves its own thread:
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jul 20 2007, 09:05 AM) *
I have always maintained that the Bush administration will find a reason, even if they have to manufacture an event, to nullify term limits and keep Bush in power indefinitely.

I heard this kind of talk before the 2004 elections, and was tempted to place some wagers. I didn't, not because I thought the election would be canceled, but because I thought Bush would likely win and I wouldn't have the heart to demand payment from someone already depressed over a second Bush term. This time around, though, I'm willing to put some money where my mouth is.

The next Presidential election is scheduled for November 4, 2008.

1. Will the election be held as scheduled?

2. Will Bush leave office by noon on January 20, 2009?

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BoF
post Jul 22 2007, 07:58 PM
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1. Will the election be held as scheduled?

Yes. I have no faith in Bush, but I still have some hope for the system. If anything like cancelling elections starts, itís time for a revolution and if itís bloody, so be it.

2. Will Bush leave office by noon on January 20, 2009?

I'm quite sure that Bush would like to be a king. Having had George Washington and George H. W. Bush, this would make him George III. unsure.gif

The tradition of succession of power is so embedded in this society, I don't see how Bush could possibly stay on.

His library is already being planned and he's trying to salvage his legacy.Looking at pictures of Bush, when he took office and now, reveals someone tired and defeated. The next eighteen months will be hell for Bush. Heíll look worse than he does now. Like Lyndon B. Johnson, Bush will return to the ranch a broken and defeated man. Bush will be defecated to the ranch in Crawford, without the deification that greeted Ronald Reagan.

I accidentally lost this post when I edited instead of posting a second time. Thanks to Microsoft Word, it's close to the originnal, if not an exact duplicate.

This post has been edited by BoF: Jul 23 2007, 03:10 AM
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CruisingRam
post Jul 22 2007, 08:34 PM
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Had the "war" gone better for him, or had Karl Rove managed to place the blame somewhere other than were it belongs, he might have had the political capital to stage a coup.

As it is, the military hates him almost as much as the rest of the country, so he has no power to pull it off.

I have no doubt Rove and Co have "gamed" the takeover, and I have no doubt GW wants a coup, but it just isn't possible now as it was before he squandered the 9/11 hysteria.

I believe bof is right when he says he will be defecated out of DC and plopped down in the Crawford area, a symbol of the worst excesses of executive mis-management and corruption and incompetance in US history.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. thumbsup.gif

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: Jul 22 2007, 08:35 PM
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turnea
post Jul 22 2007, 08:57 PM
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I've never been one to believe hyperbole was needed to describe this administration. Plenty to complain about that's well within the realm of reason.

I don't think Bush has planned any coup or even wishes to be King.

I think he wishes he'd be remembered as a good president and that his administration is on the wrong side of corrupt and consistently contemptuous of the limits of executive authority.

Will he refuse to step down?

Nah.

Though when he moves out, you bet they ought to check the silverware. tongue.gif

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moif
post Jul 22 2007, 10:55 PM
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I don't think GW Bush has the desire to be King. Like turnea I reckon he was always after the title of 'good president', and has simply been incapable of doing the job.

Whats most telling abou the unpopularity of GW Bush is what it means beyond GW Bush. There has been an awful lot of hatred riding on the coat tails of this one man, far too much in my mind to be justified by his actions. I'm very curious to see if the hatred will remain once Bush is gone and how the next president will be perceieved.

Bush has provided justification for a lot of anti-Americanism and I can't see the anti America crowd simply accepting a new president. They will want more. I get the impression a snow ball has been pushed down a hill.
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Jobius
post Jul 22 2007, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE(moif @ Jul 22 2007, 03:55 PM) *
I don't think GW Bush has the desire to be King. Like turnea I reckon he was always after the title of 'good president', and has simply been incapable of doing the job.

I agree with moif and turnea here. GWB has tried to expand executive power, as most (all?) presidents have, but the Imperial Presidency stuff is laying on the hyperbole a little thick. CR has "no doubt" that Bush wants a coup, and that Rove has "gamed" the takeover. Such certainty is the mark of fanaticism.

QUOTE(moif @ Jul 22 2007, 03:55 PM) *
Whats most telling abou the unpopularity of GW Bush is what it means beyond GW Bush. There has been an awful lot of hatred riding on the coat tails of this one man, far too much in my mind to be justified by his actions. I'm very curious to see if the hatred will remain once Bush is gone and how the next president will be perceieved.

Bush has provided justification for a lot of anti-Americanism and I can't see the anti America crowd simply accepting a new president. They will want more. I get the impression a snow ball has been pushed down a hill.

We'll see. Clinton inspired a lot of irrational hatred at home, though he was better liked by our traditional allies abroad. I think Reagan inspired a similar fear and loathing in Western Europe (crazy cowboy warmonger, etc.) -- though he was better appreciated by liberal reformers in Eastern Europe, who wouldn't come to power until after he left office.

I expect a Democrat to be elected next year, and the world to breathe a sigh of relief as Bush steps down on 1/20/09. But America will continue to be America, and some people will always hate us for that.
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Lesly
post Jul 22 2007, 11:30 PM
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I don't think about the naked emperor pulling something out of his poopshoot the night before he's supposed to pack, granting himself authority to stay in the White House for as long as he determines is necessary. I think about Bush writing an EO that will magically undo the other seven hundred plus magical EOs that challenged federal law, especially 13292. As much as I don't believe in unitary executive theory I wouldn't mind the next president disclosing everything this White House has done to the public before trashing Bush's EOs. Sure, Cheney, Rove and company may be burning (or deleting, as the case may be) evidence of malfeasance and God knows what else, but they can't possibly cover all their tracks.

Other than that, I'll sit tight, watch and wait. If the need arises I'll grab my 21st century pitchfork and die happy.

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CruisingRam
post Jul 22 2007, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE(moif @ Jul 22 2007, 02:55 PM) *
I don't think GW Bush has the desire to be King. Like turnea I reckon he was always after the title of 'good president', and has simply been incapable of doing the job.

Whats most telling abou the unpopularity of GW Bush is what it means beyond GW Bush. There has been an awful lot of hatred riding on the coat tails of this one man, far too much in my mind to be justified by his actions. I'm very curious to see if the hatred will remain once Bush is gone and how the next president will be perceieved.

Bush has provided justification for a lot of anti-Americanism and I can't see the anti America crowd simply accepting a new president. They will want more. I get the impression a snow ball has been pushed down a hill.


Anti- Americans will be anti-American for whatever reasons, and we can't change them, and I am not really interested in trying.

However- I have no problem despising a person like GW- and fearing his power greatly. Clinton, well, I had no love for him, never worshiped him or anything- but I found him ho-hum competent snake oil salesman with some concern for his image outside his "base". To me, I don't fear that kind of person, because they are self limiting in what they can damage.

However- GW doesn't care about anything outside his base, and for all his mouthings about values- he really has none when it comes to personal responsibility for himself or others

I think why so many despise him is his smug behavior in deciding stuff he really has no idea about, and his cavalier behavior towards others "sacrifice" = while never, in his entire life, having to sacrifice anything for himself.

When you combine corporate elitism with some religion, and a real disdain for the limitations on power that is enshrined in our constitution- from "it's okay to torture 'cause I say so" to "I am the president, I answer to no one"- you have a recipe for disaster.

I think GW represents a good lesson in that you can be evil, yet personable to the gullible, but that usually evil is inept, and we are lucky for it. thumbsup.gif

Oh yeah, and evil poeple usually think of themsleves as the good guy. rolleyes.gif

I think we are also very lucky that he peeved off the military so thoroughly- then it could have very well been a coup, they were following him pretty blindly up to the point he really started to fubar IRAQ

That, and thank gawd each day for our diversity that never really allows one group or another full power- thank whatever diety for checks and balances that have saved our bacon so many times!

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: Jul 22 2007, 11:36 PM
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BaphometsAdvocat...
post Jul 22 2007, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE(Jobius @ Jul 22 2007, 03:38 PM) *
1. Will the election be held as scheduled?

Yes.
QUOTE(Jobius @ Jul 22 2007, 03:38 PM) *
2. Will Bush leave office by noon on January 20, 2009?

Yes.

This fantasy that Bush is going to remain in power is just feigned paranoid rantings from folks who really, really, really hat Bushco and realize they've done nothing to stop him, slow him down or get him impeached/out of office. Bush won't be impeached, frog marched at the Hague or any of the other Merry Fitzmas fantasies the KosKids are having.

Much like Y2K, nothing will come of this. Most American's don't even know about this particular line of conspiracy theory.
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BoF
post Jul 23 2007, 01:28 AM
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According to the constitution, amendment 20, the president's term us up on January 20 at noon. That's the case, even if a new president has not been sworn in.

QUOTE
Amendment 20 - Presidential, Congressional Terms. Ratified 1/23/1933. History

1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.


When I started the countdown in my signature line, Bush had 733 days left. It's now down to 548. It's slow, but it's progress. The end is coming. There is an ever so small sliver of light at the end of a very long, dark, nightmarish tunnel. I don't anticipate a consitutional train wreck coming from the other direction. wink2.gif

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Eeyore
post Jul 23 2007, 01:37 AM
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I foresee no possibility that Bush will try to stay in office.

What I fear is that the extensions of power pressed for for the executive branch under his tenure will allowed to be left in place. That White House is our house and we should be allowed to know a lot more about the daily actions of the public employees that serve our Constitution and our president.

I hope the next person has the ability to not embrace those expanded powers and turn the lights on brighter around the executive branch and defer whenever possible to the legislative branch of government.
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BoF
post Jul 23 2007, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 22 2007, 08:37 PM) *
I hope the next person has the ability to not embrace those expanded powers and turn the lights on brighter around the executive branch and defer whenever possible to the legislative branch of government.


I agree with this Eeyore. I think caution and restraint in the use of power is what makes someone great or not so great. When I was teaching, I found principals who macro managed rather than micro managed better. Prudent use of power might make the next president great or something less.
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DaffyGrl
post Jul 23 2007, 02:59 AM
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1. Will the election be held as scheduled?

2. Will Bush leave office by noon on January 20, 2009?


When I made the comment, I was referring to something far more sinister than just refusing to leave. Unlike many here, I believe Bush would like to be dictator for life. If it took manipulating events to cause an attack on this country, then I wouldn't put it past him. Say an attack happens in late 2008. Bush issues an executive order granting him extended time in office, much as Giuliani tried to do with his mayorship after the 9/11 attacks (unfortunately for Rudy, he didn't have the kind of unbridled and unchallenged power this president has). Bush is a narcissist, and I don't believe he thinks of himself other than all-powerful, always right, chosen by God, and the only one who could possibly "save" the country.
QUOTE
...characterized by a rigid, unremitting conviction of personal entitlement which drives, motivates, pervades, and dominates the entire spectrum of the individual's behavior and actions. This belief assumes an imperious postion that supercedes any and all sense of social/community/family/professional association and responsibility. The individual conceptualizes and interprets rules, laws, codes, mores, and values exclusively in terms of a privately/secretly held idea of self-justification and vindication that serves to reinforce and strengthen his/her distorted and contaminated projections, images, fantasies, dogmas, doctrines and practices. Wiki

Yup, that about covers it.
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BoF
post Jul 23 2007, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jul 22 2007, 09:59 PM) *
When I made the comment, I was referring to something far more sinister than just refusing to leave. Unlike many here, I believe Bush would like to be dictator for life. If it took manipulating events to cause an attack on this country, then I wouldn't put it past him. Say an attack happens in late 2008. Bush issues an executive order granting him extended time in office, much as Giuliani tried to do with his mayorship after the 9/11 attacks (unfortunately for Rudy, he didn't have the kind of unbridled and unchallenged power this president has). Bush is a narcissist, and I don't believe he thinks of himself other than all-powerful, always right, chosen by God, and the only one who could possibly "save" the country.


Daffy, I agree with your characterization of Bush, but I think such a scenario, if pushed to its limits, would be the beginning of a second Civil War. You might have the blue states and more moderate red states lined up against the hard core red states.

Transition of power, however, is so ingrained in us, that we would revolt against any such idea. A new president every four or eight years is our right. We won't let anything stop that. Personally, I'd like to see U. S. Marshals drag Bush out of the White House, but I don't think that will be necessary.

In the meantime, Congress needs to keep investigating, keep turning up the pressure on Bush to honor the constitution he's sworn to uphold. I think Democrats can and should make life so miserable for him, he'll be glad to leave.

Heck, I'm an optimist. I still think Bush's defeating Ann Richards for Governor of Texas in 1994 is a bad dream and that I'm going to wake up any minute and go whistling.gif .


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Jobius
post Jul 23 2007, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE(BoF @ Jul 22 2007, 08:22 PM) *
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jul 22 2007, 09:59 PM) *
When I made the comment, I was referring to something far more sinister than just refusing to leave. Unlike many here, I believe Bush would like to be dictator for life. If it took manipulating events to cause an attack on this country, then I wouldn't put it past him. Say an attack happens in late 2008. Bush issues an executive order granting him extended time in office, much as Giuliani tried to do with his mayorship after the 9/11 attacks (unfortunately for Rudy, he didn't have the kind of unbridled and unchallenged power this president has). Bush is a narcissist, and I don't believe he thinks of himself other than all-powerful, always right, chosen by God, and the only one who could possibly "save" the country.


Daffy, I agree with your characterization of Bush, but I think such a scenario, if pushed to its limits, would be the beginning of a second Civil War. You might have the blue states and more moderate red states lined up against the hard core red states.

I can't really agree with DaffyGrl's characterization of Bush, but I agree with BoF's prediction of what would follow a canceled election. Only I'd like to think even the reddest states would resist such a naked power-grab. If the election or presidential succession were canceled, I'd lose my bet (assuming anyone took me up on it), and would be happy to have the winnings go to supporting the resistance. If the winner prefers pitchforks or ammunition to dollars, I'm sure we could work that out.
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carlitoswhey
post Jul 23 2007, 02:58 PM
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Of course he will step down and the next President will be sworn in and everything will be normal.

While I hesitate to paint with a broad brush, there is some truth to the term "Bush Derangement Syndrome." That so many people believe the hype about this evil, extra-Constitutional "regime," that they are so evil and power-hungry that they would not even step down after 8 years, is just completely irrational.

I just had an anti-Bush person casually tell me at dinner that he believes (not kidding here) that Bush would change the rules for the money, and have the mint put out currency with Bush's likeness immediately. A Bush 3-dollar bill, perhaps? That kind of thinking is insane.

As moif points out, I worry where all of the hatred is going to go when Hillary or Rudy or whomever is sworn in. Especially if a Republican wins, our country could be in real danger of a complete schizm right vs. left. The past 2 Congressional do-nothing terms are great in my eyes, but this kind of divide isn't going to do anything for domestic policy.
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DaffyGrl
post Jul 23 2007, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
While I hesitate to paint with a broad brush, there is some truth to the term "Bush Derangement Syndrome." That so many people believe the hype about this evil, extra-Constitutional "regime," that they are so evil and power-hungry that they would not even step down after 8 years, is just completely irrational.

Why is it irrational? What, exactly, leads you to believe that this administration is NOT power-hungry? Past acts are a pretty good barometer of future behavior, and whether or not you believe the accounts of election irregularities in 2000 and election fraud in 2004, disregard for consitutional law and any opposing viewpoints, and blatant disregard for the majority of the American people, what could possibly make you think these people would NOT do whatever it takes to hold onto power?
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carlitoswhey
post Jul 23 2007, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jul 23 2007, 09:38 AM) *
QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
While I hesitate to paint with a broad brush, there is some truth to the term "Bush Derangement Syndrome." That so many people believe the hype about this evil, extra-Constitutional "regime," that they are so evil and power-hungry that they would not even step down after 8 years, is just completely irrational.

Why is it irrational?

Because it's not based in reality. Plotters of extraconstitutional coups d'etat do not submit to the will of the SCOTUS as to the disposition of their military tribunals . They do not permit the Red Cross to visit their detention camps. They do not permit their opponents to take control of the 2 houses of Congress. They do not compromise on judicial appointees. These are not the actions of a dictator, they are the actions of an executive branch in a Constitutional Republic.

QUOTE
What, exactly, leads you to believe that this administration is NOT power-hungry?

I never said they weren't power-hungry. Try reading my entire statement, highlighted above. No one is more "power-hungry" than a Presidential Candidate, and all those healthy and able to do so have stepped down willingly after 4 or 8 years so far. (I guess FDR was "power-hungry" to a higher degree, but that's the only exception worth noting) I see no reason to break this precedent.

QUOTE
Past acts are a pretty good barometer of future behavior,

Yes, and George Bush has lost elections and left political office before.

QUOTE
and whether or not you believe the accounts of election irregularities in 2000 and election fraud in 2004,

I don't

QUOTE
disregard for consitutional law and any opposing viewpoints, and blatant disregard for the majority of the American people,

I've seen this before - Iran-Contra, Teapot Dome ... heck, Lincoln vs. habeus corpus.

QUOTE
what could possibly make you think these people would NOT do whatever it takes to hold onto power?

That phrasing is tough to answer. I believe that those pulling the strings will try to win the next presidential election, and leave it at that. I do not believe that they will succeed, but it doesn't change my belief that the Republic is safe.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Jul 23 2007, 07:10 PM
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I think there is a remote possibility that the Presidential election in November, 2008 could be cancelled. But it would take a larger attack than 9/11/2001. In that case, I could see George Walker Bush suspending the national election. I pray that doesn't happen.

The electronic voting systems are worrisome, but at least George Walker Bush cannot run again for president.

At this point, none of the candidates running for President, on the Democratic or 'publican side appear to be as bad as what we have occupying the Oval Office right now. Let's hope that this appearance is not deceptive.
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BoF
post Jul 23 2007, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Jul 23 2007, 02:10 PM) *
I think there is a remote possibility that the Presidential election in November, 2008 could be cancelled. But it would take a larger attack than 9/11/2001. In that case, I could see George Walker Bush suspending the national election. I pray that doesn't happen.

The electronic voting systems are worrisome, but at least George Walker Bush cannot run again for president.

At this point, none of the candidates running for President, on the Democratic or 'publican side appear to be as bad as what we have occupying the Oval Office right now. Let's hope that this appearance is not deceptive.


If there is a problem PE, it's this. Even if we had a state of national emergency that brought about suspending or delaying the 2008 electons, Bush's term ends via the constitution (amendment 20) on January 20 at noon. The constitutional crisis might be that we wouldn't have a president. Of course, in "BoF World," no president is better than a prolonged Bush Presidency.

Edited to add:

I don't want to wish more than a year of my life away, but It seems as if these next 547 days will never pass. Waiting for Bush to leave town, is like a kid waiting for Christmas. As George H. W. recently put it, "Bush fatigue." Yeah, that's it "Bush fatigue."

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