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> What does Trump personally actually believe?
Dingo
post Jan 11 2017, 02:47 AM
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We've had plenty of time to take the measure of our president-elect. Out of this experience what do folks think he seriously believes beyond what is simply politically convenient. I have a serious problem with that. Maybe somebody else here has more clarity on the matter that I could learn from. So the simple question is:

Beyond speaking for political effect what does Donald Trump actually believe and what values will he go to the wall for?
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AuthorMusician
post Jan 16 2017, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Jan 15 2017, 09:47 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 15 2017, 08:34 AM) *
Yep, people like the ACA better than Obamacare (same thing) due to Republican meme-making.

This is an example of belief in propaganda, which Trump also seems to have. It'll become clearer as time goes on. He obviously believes in the use of propaganda, as evident from his campaign. Believing in propaganda is different.


I don't know anyone who would call a 10,000 dollar deductible with 500 a month premium for a family of five at 50k a year income "affordable".
The name Affordable Care is itself a bit of propaganda (or false advertisement).

Perhaps they come to this conclusion because to sign up for the plan they go to the Obamacareplans.com website.

Reporter to Joe Bro ignorant voter:
Q: "Do you like Obamacare?"
A: "Hell no! I spend fifteen percent of my income paying the premiums and I never reach the deductible anyway. It's a scam!

Q: "Do you like the Affordable Care Act?"
A: "Well, I'd like something affordable...heck ya!"

Let's get real here. Before the ACA and before she got on Medicare, Lydia was paying $700-800 a month just to cover herself. A family plan would have cost in the range of $1,500-2,000/month or more back then. Deductibles were going up too.

Healthcare insurance for me consisted of Medicaid, which had a limit of about $2,500 a year, and you couldn't make much more than that per year to qualify. After the ACA, it went up substantially, enabling care for me that saved my life to the tune of about $100,000. My residual costs are in the neighborhood of 1/10 of that.

So by these measures, even the cost of $500 a month, perhaps for a family plan, is a lot more affordable.

Still, the government option would have made it even more affordable. So sorry, but Republicans insisted on killing that option.

Now Trump might push for the government option, which has zero chance of getting through the Republican Congress. Or maybe not -- time will tell, and she's a real bitch.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-...4b0b3c7a7b205de
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Hobbes
post Jan 16 2017, 09:48 PM
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Beyond speaking for political effect what does Donald Trump actually believe and what values will he go to the wall for?

Good topic and question, Dingo! Actually a good one for any candidate or President elect (one could have asked the same question of Obama), but particularly so for Trump.

He has a book out which probably helps answer (I haven't read it, but think I will): Crippled America. It doesn't seem to different from his messaging during the campaign, but without much of the hyperbole from his campaign (although not all of it).

Trump does present an answer to much of the campaign hyperbole, though (from the Wiki link):

QUOTE
rump admits that he makes hyperbolic statements because "if you're not afraid to be outspoken, the media will write about you or beg you to come on their shows." He justifies this strategy by saying that he is a businessman and "When was the last time you saw a sign hanging outside a pizzeria claiming 'The Fourth Best Pizza In The World'?!"[1]


Which of course doesn't address the many other things he said during the campaign that have people concerned, but it goes to why the topic question is a very reasonable one to ponder.

Trump has said that he will approach all negotiations/discussions under the perspective of 'How will this impact the U.S.?" I think he will have a very pragmatic approach to that, both internally (domestically) and externally (foreign). I have always felt that foreign diplomacy is inherently pragmatic, anyway, so this is a good thing. Many of the foreign policy blunders that have been made have occured do to an ideological perspective, rather than a pragmatic one.

Internally, things get more complicated, due to politics and the influence that has on..everything. But I think he will have the same 'value' perspective. Is whatever is being proposed good for the U.S.? Naturally, there will be differing perspectives on that. Having such a debate between them, though, is precisely what has been missing lately, and needs to be reinstated. That Trump is fairly middle of the road personally will help...I don't think he has a particular perspective to such things going in. That is also good. Having a preconceived notion as to what is 'right' is not a good way to approach solving issues. Trump's approach will also be more business like, which is very needed in Washington. Programs should be conceived and run as a business would do it: What is said programs purpose? How will it be measured? What to do if it not meetings its measurements? Such things are inherently objective, and not based on an ideological 'value'. This too has been sorely lacking in Washington, and is why we have many of the problems we have in government.

Is Trump the right one to bring this perspective to government? He certainly wouldn't have been on my first list of people, but he's the one we got. So, I'm going to wait and see what happens. I think his perspective on things is needed. That he knows so little about government will be both a benefit, and a hindrance. Obama has admitted he got essentially run over by the establishment (including his own), and he had 6 years experience going in. Trump has none. I do think he one main skill--the art of the deal--is a good skill to have in accomplishing things, though. Particularly if you have an objective perspective that is open to ideas from all sides.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Jan 16 2017, 09:49 PM
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Julian
post Jan 17 2017, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE(Hobbes @ Jan 16 2017, 09:48 PM) *
Trump has said that he will approach all negotiations/discussions under the perspective of 'How will this impact the U.S.?" I think he will have a very pragmatic approach to that, both internally (domestically) and externally (foreign).


Come off it, Hobbes, you know as well as I do that in any of the really contentious policy areas (up to and including things subjects like immigration, international strategy, the economy, and almost anything else you could name, but I'll use immigration as an example) the spectrum of opinions goes all the way from "immigration is good for the economy; immigrants on average raise more taxes than the cost, so we should have MORE immigration and an immediate amnesty on any immigrant currently in the US illegally" to "immigration is a disaster; we should close our borders to all but the most selectively chosen people, repatriate a large proportion of legal immigrants already here, and immediately eject all illegal immigrants without a care for what happens to them next".

And, if you asked a holder of either of those opinions - or anywhere in between - what they thought was "best for the US" they'd opine that their own suggested solution fit that criterion way better than anyone else's.

Even a simpler, financial-only criterion like "is this policy going to be of net financial benefit to the USA as a whole?" has enough wiggle room in it to drive through the whole population of what we used to call the Third World, because it depends entirely on what data you use and what assumptions you make. Nobody really knows what the effects of any policy would be, because we don't have a 'control USA' where we can change a policy in one and leave it the same in the other to see what the differences are after a given time has elapsed.

If Trump seriously thinks that he can make "what's best for the US" his acid test for any policy without examining his own assumptions and taking advice from a range of experts on the pros and cons of every possible position (and examining their assumptions too, though it's a poor 'expert' that doesn't do that themselves all the time), then he is a bigger fool than anybody has yet suggested. And - let's be honest - even his staunchest supporters have yet to suggest his great capacity for self-reflection and sober contemplation of all the available evidence.
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Mrs. Pigpen
post Jan 17 2017, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 16 2017, 01:08 PM) *
Healthcare insurance for me consisted of Medicaid, which had a limit of about $2,500 a year, and you couldn't make much more than that per year to qualify. After the ACA, it went up substantially, enabling care for me that saved my life to the tune of about $100,000. My residual costs are in the neighborhood of 1/10 of that.


AM, was that 2,500 "limit" the limit Medicaid would pay annually? Or was it the deductible? 2,500 won't get you much, that's for sure.

I see the ACA more like a catastrophic cap than insurance. Basically those monthly premiums get you a catastrophic cap, but you're unlikely to ever reach the point of needed it on an annual basis unless there is some medical crisis like the one you describe happened to you. Most families, when weighing the cost to gains of 15 percent of their income that only pays off after 10,000 dollars in medical treatment annually are unlikely to think that's a good deal. That was the opinion of my aforementioned pathologist friend. He said healthcare communities were refusing to accept Obamacare. I asked if that was legal (were they allowed to refuse it) he said it was, but the deductible is so high most people never get to use it anyway.
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Trouble
post Jan 20 2017, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE(Dingo @ Jan 10 2017, 08:47 PM) *
We've had plenty of time to take the measure of our president-elect. Out of this experience what do folks think he seriously believes beyond what is simply politically convenient. I have a serious problem with that. Maybe somebody else here has more clarity on the matter that I could learn from. So the simple question is:

Beyond speaking for political effect what does Donald Trump actually believe and what values will he go to the wall for?


Your question would be easier to answer for the outgoing president as two terms of office provide real examples. From what I have seen Trump will expand the use of the executive order which was expanded on by Obama, and also under Bush. How you interpret that is entirely subjective.Personally I see it as the inevitable result of too much dysfunctional legislation, so everything from here on with be administered in a quasi-state of ad-hoc emergency.

This post has been edited by Trouble: Jan 20 2017, 04:51 AM
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Curmudgeon
post Feb 3 2017, 05:20 PM
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Beyond speaking for political effect what does Donald Trump actually believe and what values will he go to the wall for?
[/quote]
The question assumes facts not in evidence... (aka "alternative facts")

I woke up this morning, read the headlines on the Internet and fired off an e-mail to my Congressman:

QUOTE
Before he starts several wars on multiple fronts in hopes of increasing the value of his Real Estate holdings and other business interests, I urge you to introduce legislation to impeach Donald Trump!

“Kellyanne Conway cites 'Bowling Green massacre' that never happened” was the headline on Yahoo News when I turned my computer on this morning. I am 71 years old, and my younger (63 years old) wife and I both recall that a massacre did happen when student war protestors at Kent State University were killed, not by “Radical Islamic Terrorists,” but by the ROTC in Bowling Green, Ohio in 1970

I have also heard that Donald Trump has threatened Mexico with invasion, and used an executive order to start construction of a wall, with no bids or congressional approval, along the Mexican Border. Has he even considered that the economy in Texas relies on water and transportation provided by the Rio Grande River? How long will it be before he tells the Mexican President to “Remember the Alamo!”? (“Alternative facts” might be useful to explain what a “Great American Victory” that battle was for the United States of America.)

Donald Trump has ambiguously stated that he “put Iran on notice,” on the assumption that if his employees understood that language in the business world, that it would easily translate into other languages and cultures in “the real world.”

I have heard that he fired the entire staffs at all of our embassies without first having Congress approve replacements

Donald Trump appears to be trying to rule by by executive order while completely bypassing Congress.

I am certain that his staff can find “alternative facts” to reply to the “opposition party,” aka “the news media” or “The Fourth Estate,”

One of the questions Donald Trump did not answer during the presidential debates was, “Mr. Donald Trump, have you even read the Constitution of The United States of America?

He needs to learn quickly that the President of The United States of America answers to the Congress and can also be told by them, “Donald Trump, You’re fired!”
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AuthorMusician
post Feb 18 2017, 03:32 PM
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Trump seems to believe that people in general like him, while in reality they fear him. This is a common misperception of people accustomed to having more power than most and is usually restricted to those who have to deal with them directly. However after gaining the POTUS slot, the game has changed dramatically. Exacerbating the situation, nobody knows what the POTUS is going to do/say next. He lets his consciousness flow without filtering much, if at all.

The situation is so bad that he is rapidly becoming the POTUS in a bell jar, living his life where consequences of his actions and words don't matter because he can't be taken seriously. This is happening because he is still taken seriously, basically out of habit, except for those groups he has already alienated: immigrants, intel community, judiciary, press, liberals (of course), moderates, some conservatives (and increasing in number).

The groups can be expanded quite a bit, but the point is that at the end of this experiment in governance within a democratic republic, he will be all alone in his bell jar. But he'll still believe that adoring crowds surround him.

Perhaps the best that can come out of this is that the country will see where the weaknesses are and how they can be fixed. For example, immediate fact-checking is becoming more common to counteract the obvious lies that Trump believes to be true. The weakness in the Electoral College system has become obvious, permitting a dark-horse candidate to wriggle into power, probably with the help of Russia and the tabloid-like Wikitinkles.

Meanwhile, a lot of smart, sane people are trying to figure out how to get rid of him before he can do more damage. But we don't have a very good mechanism for accomplishing that, unlike other democratic republics that have things like votes of no confidence. This doesn't mean it's impossible, but it does make it a lot more difficult, which could also be seen as a strength. Normally competing factions will have to join together to pull it off, as opposed to impeachment that left a sitting POTUS still sitting.

On the other hand, it could be as easy as pie (the eating, not the making -- it's hard to make a good pie). President Trump could resign. That would put Pence into power, which isn't all that great either, but at least he's not like a child playing with a loaded firearm. And there'd still be the collection of deplorables in the admin to deal with, which is again better than what we have now.

In any event, President Trump lives in his own little world, ain't it wonderful arrow.gif question.gif
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