logo 
spacer
  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

If you have an opinion, you should share it! Register Now!

America's Debate hosts the best in news, government, and political debate. Register now to take part in the most civil and constructive debate on the Internet. Join the community, and get ready to be challenged!

Click here to start

> Sponsored Links

Register to remove these ads!
> Brock Turner & rape culture at Stanford University
Bikerdad
post Jun 10 2016, 09:03 PM
Post #1


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,829
Member No.: 715
Joined: May-8-03

Gender: Male
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



Another college rape case is in the news, this one involving a swimmer at Stanford University. The primary reason it's in the news is outrage at the sentence given to the perpetrator.

Questions for Debate:
  1. Do you think the outrage at the judge is justified?
  2. Why do you think the judge ruled the way he did?
  3. What is "rape culture", and do you think Stanford has one?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 25)
akaCG
post Jul 10 2016, 11:24 PM
Post #21


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Sponsor
August 2012

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 4,846
Member No.: 10,787
Joined: November-25-09

Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 5 2016, 01:02 PM) *

The sub-headline of the piece asks:"Are these people only confused or just plain stupid?"

The answer: Neither, really.

These people are acting in perfect accordance with their voluntarily chosen, fiercely adhered to, and aggressively promoted over the past couple of generations ideology. Here's a brief examination thereof (bolding and coloring mine):
QUOTE
...
Feminists incessantly harp about a phantom “rape culture” in the United States and other Western countries. On New Year’s Eve 2016, Northern European cities experienced an outbreak of the real thing—and the opponents of patriarchy went silent. It turns out that a more powerful force exists on the left than feminist victimology: multiculturalism.

As revelers gathered in the central square of Cologne, Germany, for the traditional New Year’s Silvesternacht celebrations, thousands of North African and Middle Eastern males started throwing firecrackers into the crowd and attacking passersby. They pickpocketed and robbed males and females, but they directed most of their violence against women: grabbing their breasts and buttocks, inserting their fingers into the women’s vaginas, and, in a few instances, raping them, while shouting sexual insults. A total of 653 victims filed reports with the police.
...
German police and political leaders covered up the violence for days. ... Eventually, however, news of the assaults leaked out, and the most surprising cover-up of all began. Leading feminists across the continent and in Great Britain either ignored the incidents entirely or distorted their significance beyond recognition. Silence was justified on the grounds that acknowledging the attacks would encourage opposition to the mass Muslim immigration that had engulfed Europe over the previous year. ... When feminists were cornered into addressing the violence, they tied themselves into knots trying to change the subject back to their favorite topic: Western white-male patriarchy. “The problem of sexualized violence has already existed here for some time and can’t simply be ‘deported,’” said German feminist Anne Wizorek to Der Spiegel. “It cannot be allowed to become the standard in gender debates that only male migrants are considered to be those responsible [for sexual violence].” In other words, the New Year’s assaults were continuous with the routine terror inflicted by German men on German women.

Actually, there was no precedent in Germany or the rest of Europe for mass peacetime sexual assaults, much less ones where the police merely look on. “I have never experienced such a thing in any German city,” a victim told the New York Times. But people who did name the attacks for what they were—a manifestation of Muslim misogyny and an alarm bell regarding mass immigration—were vilified as racists. ...
...
The feminist apologists did issue grudging, boilerplate repudiations of the violence but only en route to conflating it with Western patriarchy. In an understatement of colossal proportions, Penny acknowledged that the “experience of women in the West is [not] exactly the same as the experience of women in Middle Eastern dictatorships and war zones.” Let’s rephrase that, shall we? To live in a society where women’s magazines, pop culture, and advertising incessantly celebrate female sexuality and promiscuity, where every elite profession desperately seeks to hire and promote as many women as it can, and where women enjoy every freedom and right that men do, is not just “not exactly the same” as living in a culture where female rape victims are murdered to preserve their family’s honor and where women who don’t wear the veil or burka face public shaming or worse; there is no similarity whatsoever between those two experiences.

To acknowledge the abyss that separates the experience of Western women from those in Arab and North African countries, though, would risk walking down a slippery slope that might end up with the recognition that Western women do not, in fact, live in a “rape culture.” But even more dangerous than such a debunking of feminist propaganda would be the possibility of confronting the potential threat that large-scale Muslim and Third World immigration poses for Western liberalism and individualism. The New York Times provided a stunning example of the inevitable “defining sexism down” that will be necessary to accommodate such immigration. The problem on New Year’s Eve, it reported, was that migrants from war-torn countries were “unfamiliar with German culture.” Translation: the norm that you don’t jam your fingers up women’s vaginas in public is just a quaint German custom, akin to wearing lederhosen. ...
...

Link: http://www.city-journal.org/html/when-piet...lide-14342.html

IOW, girls, ...

... your feminist "leaders", Gender Studies profs, etc. have just ever so helpfully reminded you of your and your vagina's place in the hierarchy of grievances:

'If it's a ... gasp/grrrr ... white ... double gasp/double grrrr ... guy messing with you and it against your will, we've got your back. Even when you lie about it. But if it's a "person of color" from a "culture" that is non-Western (even more so if it's anti-Western), kindly be quiet and take your place at the "back of the bus". And please be mindful enough to check your "Western/White Privilege" and be respectful enough of such "cultures" as to wear less revealing clothing during New Year's celebrations and such, while you're at it. Also, your signature on the petition to ban Ayaan Hirsi Ali from ever speaking on a college campus again would be much appreciated, as would your donations and volunteering efforts to make sure that happens.'

This post has been edited by akaCG: Jul 10 2016, 11:59 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eeyore
post Jul 13 2016, 03:13 AM
Post #22


Group Icon

********
Thaaaaanks for noticin' me

Sponsor
February 2003

Group: Moderators
Posts: 2,483
Member No.: 365
Joined: December-28-02

From: Nashville
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



I am a little stunned by this thread.

Hmmm rape culture.

I think it has become clear on campuses that there has been regression in the areas of sexula assualt and rapes.

This has never not been a problem.

It is also extremely traumatic for young women to file claims of sexual assault because historically they have to bear the burden of proof and often have their character put on trial.

Some very prestigious universities, including the one in my area, Vanderbilt, have had astonishing incidents. Maybe the prevalence of surveillance footage and the use of social media have made the chance of these events becoming known more likely.

It "feels" like me to be a pendulum swing as college campuses seem to be on an upswing of heavy binge drinking.

There definitely has been on problem with such incidents in our armed forces and in particular our air force.

I frankly don't understand a lot of the language of this thread.

The problem seems to be identified as being caused by feminists, irresponsible women, an intellectual culture, white privilege,double standards, and cultural sensitivity.

While I want young women to take responsibility for their actions, I also want them to feel safe in public spaces and I want them to have faith in the system to report crimes without having their accusations be assumed to be inspired by women's studies professors with an axe to grind.

Presumption of innocence is not the problem here. It is a good thing. But we should not victimize victims in trying to defend the innocent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
droop224
post Jul 22 2016, 09:32 PM
Post #23


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,816
Member No.: 3,073
Joined: May-12-04

Gender: Male
Politics: Very Liberal
Party affiliation: None



QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 12 2016, 10:13 PM) *
I am a little stunned by this thread.

Hmmm rape culture.

I think it has become clear on campuses that there has been regression in the areas of sexula assualt and rapes.

This has never not been a problem.

It is also extremely traumatic for young women to file claims of sexual assault because historically they have to bear the burden of proof and often have their character put on trial.

Some very prestigious universities, including the one in my area, Vanderbilt, have had astonishing incidents. Maybe the prevalence of surveillance footage and the use of social media have made the chance of these events becoming known more likely.

It "feels" like me to be a pendulum swing as college campuses seem to be on an upswing of heavy binge drinking.

There definitely has been on problem with such incidents in our armed forces and in particular our air force.

I frankly don't understand a lot of the language of this thread.

The problem seems to be identified as being caused by feminists, irresponsible women, an intellectual culture, white privilege,double standards, and cultural sensitivity.

While I want young women to take responsibility for their actions, I also want them to feel safe in public spaces and I want them to have faith in the system to report crimes without having their accusations be assumed to be inspired by women's studies professors with an axe to grind.

Presumption of innocence is not the problem here. It is a good thing. But we should not victimize victims in trying to defend the innocent.

Really I'm stunned that you are stunned. Let me ask you is there room for debate on this issue or is there only one narrative that must be understood and swallowed with out the free flow of ideas and arguments. I know I used the term of white privilege and I have good reason to do so.. the debate doesn't need to go that road so I'm not going to derail it. However many of the comments you mention exemplify the innate complications and contradictions of the concept of "rape culture".

Are you willing to examine them and debate? I don't know but let us see...

"While I want young women to take responsibility for their actions, I also want them to feel safe in public spaces and I want them to have faith in the system to report crimes without having their accusations be assumed to be inspired by women's studies professors with an axe to grind." Most rapes are considered "acquaintance rapes" Date/Acquaintance rape describes when an individual is forced by someone he or she knows to participate in unwanted sexual activity. Threats and intimidation, administration of alcohol or other
QUOTE
drugs, as well as physical force or restraint is often present in an acquaintance rape situation. Acquaintance rape is the most common form of rape on college campuses. Acquaintance rape occurs most often during or after social events such as parties at bars, fraternity/sorority parties, or other places where students may congregate while using alcohol or drugs. It can even occur on a date.
You want women to take responsibility but rape culture teaches them they don't have any responsibility. Its quite common that language in rape cases where the women was fed or plied with drugs or alcohol, even if the male is also doing the same. In the following case it is quite clear that both kids were drunk out of their mind, but it is also clear that the female bears no responsibility for her inebriated state. In fact we are quite clearly as a society saying you don't have to explain what you did with him or what you were doing with him....you were drunk so you are not responsible. If I am wrong tell me what she is responsible for.

"Presumption of innocence is not the problem here. It is a good thing. But we should not victimize victims in trying to defend the innocent." You can't have both that's the point that should blatantly obvious and the issue with "rape culture" philosophies. If the presumption is the defendant is innocent then we CANNOT presume the accuser as a victim (in most cases) in a rape. If there is a acquaintance/date rape situation.. the accused is saying sex was consensual and the accuser is saying it was not... you can't have both a innocent person and a victim. So there is no such thing as victimizing the victim unless there was a crime... and if there is an assumption of a victim then there is an assumption of a crime that means there is an assumption of guilty.














Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eeyore
post Jul 27 2016, 04:17 PM
Post #24


Group Icon

********
Thaaaaanks for noticin' me

Sponsor
February 2003

Group: Moderators
Posts: 2,483
Member No.: 365
Joined: December-28-02

From: Nashville
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



QUOTE(droop224 @ Jul 22 2016, 04:32 PM) *
"Presumption of innocence is not the problem here. It is a good thing. But we should not victimize victims in trying to defend the innocent." You can't have both that's the point that should blatantly obvious and the issue with "rape culture" philosophies.


Oh the advocacy society we live in. It is a logic flaw here. This can and must be done both ways. Now you may have a definition of rape culture that makes this logically sound, but I suspect I would find flaws in that definition. (or grant it, concede this point and move on). But our social contract, our system of justice, heck the American way of life depends on being able to have both of these things.

Since our society rarely respects experts anymore, let me defer to a higher being, a celebrity, one-name megastar who recently said something similar on a different issue our society has been wholly incapable of solving.

From Michael Jordan: "I was raised by parents who taught me to love and respect people regardless of their race or background, so I am saddened and frustrated by the divisive rhetoric and racial tensions that seem to be getting worse as of late. I know this country is better than that, and I can no longer stay silent. We need to find solutions that ensure people of color receive fair and equal treatment AND that police officers – who put their lives on the line every day to protect us all – are respected and supported."

On this issue, he points out the need to address the constant stream of incidents happening nationally between people of color and police officers, AND he asserts that respect for police officers and recognition that 99%+ of American police officers deserve our respect and support for risking their lives for our safety.

In our case we have a society that has actual victims of rape and actual criminals who commit rapes. Now we don't know who those people are.

People who believe themselves to be victims should feel comfortable stepping forward and seeking justice. They need to be honest, but reckless behavior that put them in harm's way, while unwise, does not give their rapist a pass on the crime.

Do some wrongfully accuse? Yes. And those that do so maliciously should be punished by the justice system.

In the pursuit of the perpetrator are some people accused that are innocent? Yes. And those individuals need the protection of the presumption of innocence.


Activists have worked hard to create a climate that empowers women to step forward when they believe themselves to be victims. This is a shameful and humiliating process and the accuser had historically been called to defend her virtue (at least be society) in the area of what had this person done to open themselves up to this crime. Either I miss your basic point, or I entirely disagree with it.

If someone is committing rape in my community I want the victims to be heard and taken seriously to prevent the next rape(s). I do not want innocent people convicted of rape. I do not want people using false accusations to harm other people.

I CAN have this both ways.


QUOTE
Let me ask you is there room for debate on this issue or is there only one narrative that must be understood and swallowed with out the free flow of ideas and arguments. I know I used the term of white privilege and I have good reason to do so.. the debate doesn't need to go that road so I'm not going to derail it. However many of the comments you mention exemplify the innate complications and contradictions of the concept of "rape culture".

Are you willing to examine them and debate? I don't know but let us see...


There is some room for debate on my end. There is the concept of "rape culture" which I can still be better educated in.

I am not sure why you bring up "white privilege." I have not come to this issue from the perspective of race. I believe that I understand the concept of white privilege. I also fully believe that it is a real thing that exists in our society and that it needs to be recognized and mitigated against. (explore how and why is definitely something for a different thread)

Where is see white privilege here is that many of the stories that seem to collectively tell me that there has been a dangerous shift in the student culture on college campuses that are bastions of elite education and therefore places easily associated with white privilege. Additionally the intellectual leaders of these institutions tend to espouse the pillars of the liberal orthodoxy. When Vanderbilt, Baylor, Stanford and Duke are having a series of stories about excessive drinking and criminal sexual misconduct I only wonder how widespread of a problem this is.

The term that I think has more relevance here is patriarchy. We come from a society that has been long dominated by males and there is certainly a male privilege in our society if there is a white privilege.

Activists trying to mitigate the presence and effects of patriarchy in our society are gaining traction in bringing attention to the issue. In our advocacy society this can spiral out of control. Union activists can be so focused on their issues that they support harming their industry for short term gains. Ant- war activists can cross the line and become anti-soldier. Gun control activists can celebrate open access to arms over any attempt to regulate, pro-choice proponents can come across as celebrating the choice to get an abortion. I assume you are drawing on feminist rhetoric that you see as declaring a wide variety of actions rape that you don't agree with.





QUOTE
In fact we are quite clearly as a society saying you don't have to explain what you did with him or what you were doing with him....you were drunk so you are not responsible. If I am wrong tell me what she is responsible for.


A person who makes bad choices that places themselves in harm's way does not deserve to be raped. Two people drink all night. One person passes out on the couch, the other person decides to go out drag racing and drives 100 mph hour into a van filled with children going on a church mission. That accident kills 8 people and maims for. I will not send both people to jail. But the "innocent" person should understand that he/she participated in reckless behavior that led to a horrible tragedy. That is the level of responsibility I am looking for here. We are all responsible for our actions and we should see when we've participated in something that help lead to a horrible crime.

I always use this story when I am talking about someone's and behavior. Old-timers and some tough-minded people will look at a situation is say, "you know what that person needs, he needs to walk into a real butt-kicking. The path that person is walking, sooner or later the day will come."

And I agree with the logic. Some people are behaving in ways that consistently tread on the sensibilities and liberties of others. Some people deserve said butt-kicking. Some people will become much better individuals afterwards. This however, in no way makes the person who delivered the beating right. The butt-kicking (unless in karate kid type heroic self-defense scenes) is a wrongful and criminal act. If the jerk of the century is assaulted, in most cases that assault is a crime and the JOTC has not waived his right to file criminal charges.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
droop224
post Jul 28 2016, 12:01 AM
Post #25


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,816
Member No.: 3,073
Joined: May-12-04

Gender: Male
Politics: Very Liberal
Party affiliation: None



Wow, debate, I like it.

eeyore, Lets remove the elephant in the room so I clearly know your position. Do you think an adult individual can be too intoxicated to consent to sex? I did not ask can an unconscious person consent, only if an intoxicated person can and you can take intoxication to as extreme as you want. Puking, stumbling, slurring drunk or high out their minds... can that person consent to sex?




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mrs. Pigpen
post Jul 28 2016, 10:16 AM
Post #26


Group Icon

**********
Carpe noctum

Sponsor
June 2003

Group: Moderators
Posts: 7,323
Member No.: 598
Joined: March-12-03

Gender: Female
Politics: Slightly Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(Eeyore @ Jul 27 2016, 12:17 PM) *
Activists have worked hard to create a climate that empowers women to step forward when they believe themselves to be victims. This is a shameful and humiliating process and the accuser had historically been called to defend her virtue (at least be society) in the area of what had this person done to open themselves up to this crime. Either I miss your basic point, or I entirely disagree with it.

If someone is committing rape in my community I want the victims to be heard and taken seriously to prevent the next rape(s). I do not want innocent people convicted of rape. I do not want people using false accusations to harm other people.

I CAN have this both ways.


The standard for any crime (other than, currently, sexual assault) places the burden of proof with the accuser, not the accused.
The accused does not have to prove he was innocent, the accuser(s) must prove that he/she was guilty (beyond reasonable doubt). That is the basis for presumption of innocence. In this particular case (as noted) there is evidence of crime that is pretty substantial (testimony from uninebriated individuals, texting and so forth). There might be some doubt but it's up to the judge/jury to decide whether that doubt is reasonable.

However, in the current climate that isn't the standard. This is why a woman can bring charges against a man for sexual assault even months or years after the ostensible crime, even if she decided to date him and only brought charges after their breakup. One can never ask for evidence and questioning motivations or behavior is "rape empowerment" which "harms women".

This is the current environment in the military court martial process and university tribunal process and it is started to be the standard elsewhere (for example, the "yes means yes" law)
It's something like this:
Accuser: "On a date I didn't want to have sex with Roy, but he was persuasive and after heavy petting I was turned on and we had sex. But I said no. That was eight months ago."
Jag: "Why did you wait to report it? Were you coerced or afraid?"
Accuser: "Well...we dated for eight months and just broke up."

By the current "rape culture" standard, this hypothetical woman is a victim, aka "survivor", and the man a violent criminal who belongs in prison. Not only in prison, but on a sexual predatory list for the rest of his life as a prior convincted felon thereafter.
The fact that she continued to date him willingly and obviously without fear is immaterial. If she were ever inebriated during the act that too could be the basis for charges even if she actually said yes and was willing...or even the instigator.
This standard isn't protecting anyone. It is victimizing the innocent.
A society that values justice and presumption of innocence cannot act this way.
"First they took the cads, and I didn't say anything because I wasn't a cad."
"Then they took the playas, and I didn't say anything because I wasn't a playa."
"Then they took the ex boyfriends and ex-husbands..."

Edited to add:
A while back on a different thread I linked to an article by a lawyer (feminist) mother of a son who was accused of rape under very similar circumstances to that described above. Her son's ex girlfriend of two years dating wanted him out of the university and launched unsubstantiatable charges against him he could not possible defend himself against (it isn't typically possible to prove a nonexistence). The mother wrote a long article explaining that she had always been a victim advocate and had no idea how far things had gone in the other direction. She knew absolutely that if she were not a lawyer her son would have been expelled with neither evidence nor any real legal recourse on the matter.
This article was met with mass ridicule (including some posters here)...the meme was, "Of course she doesn't want to admit her son is a rapist!!!" In spite of the fact his girlfriend had dated him for two years and there was obvious evidence of ill will no one questioned the intentions of the accuser at all.

Of course, anyone who pleads for presumption of innocence is an ipso facto rape enabler. Who wants to be on the side of "RAPE!!"
No one, of course. That's why it's so powerful.
We're seeing the use of emotional trigger memes in this election too as the candidates go back and forth appealling to the masses to decide who is more "dark" or "rotten". There's no frontal lobe activity here, it's all emotional appeal. Same with the "rape culture" meme.
I've noted before that the casualties of the "rape culture" meme (beyond the accused) include the actual victims of rape.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: Jul 28 2016, 11:54 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

  
Go to the top of the page - Simple Version Time is now: June 21st, 2018 - 02:37 AM
©2002-2010 America's Debate, Inc.  All rights reserved.