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> Remaining friends with Trump supporters, good idea?, Why hang with a fascist?
CruisingRam
post May 2 2017, 02:51 AM
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This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.

Considering that Trump literally lies outright and the right wing seems to not really care, and when I mean lie- there is no nuance or reality to it whatsoever, Not debatable points, nothing to do with facts- just makes crap up and it's okay. Same with Fox news. So there doesn't seem to be much point in debating a right winger anymore, just resist them, and this has been pretty much coming since Reagan decided to go the Christo-facsist way with conservatism in America. He has taken even to going about calling the press that fact check him "the lying press" (Hitler: Luggenpresse)

Some of the important elements of fascism:


1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)

3) The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. (Reagan started this, and fox news has run with it, pretty much the entire Republican party is completely fascist in this regard, as is many on this board now)

4) A strong sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary."

5) Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." (MURICA!)

6) Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. (Making America great again! Though modern times women can be fascist leaders- Sarah Palin, Ann Coultier, Margeret Thatcher)

7) "The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. (Trump has called for violence against his opponent several times)

Another important aspect is "the rebirth myth"- "Making America great again"- I think it is just as important as anti-liberalism in fact. Without it, you don't have fascism able to gain power from what I have seen.

Another set of definitions of fascism, which pretty much are ticked off one by one by anyone that even remotely supports the republican party today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: May 2 2017, 02:55 AM
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Mrs. Pigpen
post May 2 2017, 02:38 PM
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We had a thread with a similar list A while back, in case anyone is interested in viewing it.
My opinion hasn't changed since then.

I don't have a lot of time right now because I have to prepare a dinner for 100 people at my home, without help (except from our oldest who is home from college).
Just doing my bit to support the military....which is an ipso facto fascist endeavor apparently. Only a fascist would want to support those people! Hey, it's a farewell for a female officer...which violates the "sexism" criteria...oops, well, best not think too hard on that one.

We had a thread on why Trump won pretty recently and actually saw a lot of old contributors back for a short time, to engage in that topic.
Most people in my experience voted against Hillary more than for Trump.
The same people who would call that sexist don't seem to have trouble not voting for Palin, so it's a little hard to take that claim seriously.

I'd say as a general rule one shouldn't be friends with anyone you have an open dislike and contempt for. That should be obvious, no?
Typically people are able to tell when someone dislikes them and has contempt for them so the issue of breaking that "friendship" shouldn't be much of a problem.
Unless it's a person with Asperger's or some profound level of autism.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: May 2 2017, 02:40 PM
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akaCG
post May 2 2017, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 2 2017, 10:38 AM) *
...
... I have to prepare a dinner for 100 people at my home, without help (except from our oldest who is home from college).
Just doing my bit to support the military....which is an ipso facto fascist endeavor apparently. Only a fascist would want to support those people! Hey, it's a farewell for a female officer...which violates the "sexism" criteria...oops, well, best not think too hard on that one.
...

I hope it's not too late, and not too much of an imposition, but I told some fascist acquaintances of mine about the wonderful fascist dinner party you're putting on, and they were so excited about joining in that I couldn't resist just telling them how to get there. They're already on their way. I don't know exactly what time they'll arrive (especially the ones who're flying in from Pennsylvania), I'm afraid. Anyway, here are their names (in case you have a guest list to check off and stuff):

From Pennsylvania: Rob Hughes, Mary Ellen Estel, Megan and A.J. Hammons, David and Michelle Barnett, Dr. Joseph Chiaro and his wife, Donna.

From Orlando: Marisa Santiago, Mandy Diaz, Amapola Hansberger, Louis Gutierrez, Juan Torres.

If you need to find out a bit more about their fascist credentials and stuff ...

http://nypost.com/2017/04/22/how-trump-vot...first-100-days/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/201...ty_has_won.html

I dearly wish I could join too, but I have a prior commitment tonight that I just can't miss: one of the local schools is putting on an inspirational choral number, as well as a rousing marching/chanting routine in celebration and honor of our Great Leader President.



EDITED TO ADD my answer to one of the "debate" questions in this thread's OP:

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree". Does that still exist?

It certainly continues to exist here, which bears a striking resemblance to the map of the U.S.. Not so much here, which doesn't.
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CruisingRam
post May 3 2017, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 2 2017, 04:38 AM) *
We had a thread with a similar list A while back, in case anyone is interested in viewing it.
My opinion hasn't changed since then.

I don't have a lot of time right now because I have to prepare a dinner for 100 people at my home, without help (except from our oldest who is home from college).
Just doing my bit to support the military....which is an ipso facto fascist endeavor apparently. Only a fascist would want to support those people! Hey, it's a farewell for a female officer...which violates the "sexism" criteria...oops, well, best not think too hard on that one.

We had a thread on why Trump won pretty recently and actually saw a lot of old contributors back for a short time, to engage in that topic.
Most people in my experience voted against Hillary more than for Trump.
The same people who would call that sexist don't seem to have trouble not voting for Palin, so it's a little hard to take that claim seriously.

I'd say as a general rule one shouldn't be friends with anyone you have an open dislike and contempt for. That should be obvious, no?
Typically people are able to tell when someone dislikes them and has contempt for them so the issue of breaking that "friendship" shouldn't be much of a problem.
Unless it's a person with Asperger's or some profound level of autism.


Wow, I replied to that one, talk about a long time ago- 2005. Since that time, it has become pretty evident that all the liberals (with what, maybe two die hards stlill left) that have left this board, and have ever posted, were 100% correct with the trends of this nation.

The Iraq war was a disaster, and supporting the Iraq war shows either how stupid you are or how much you really hate America, etc.

yes, we are the most militarized nation on earth- even more so than North Korea.

Faux news is now literally an arm of the government and the republican party. (Zucker from CNN was spot on)

If you are a republican, you are now a racist. There is no more middle ground. Your hatred of Islam and Mexicans is pretty evident. Just admit it.

My old friend wertz posted this in 2005, lets see how we have evolved since then:

Which of the 14 features does the United States have?

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism This would really only apply if there were a rise in overt patriotism with politicians resorting to jingoist sloganeering and, as Britt describes it, "prominent displays of flags and bunting... pride in the military... and demands for unity". Well, we've seen none of that in the US recently, have we?

Ah Wertz. Wow, had you lived to see this election. Just wow.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights This would really only apply if a country were, say, employing torture or abusing prisoners or incarcerating people without due process - and we've certainly seen none of that lately. It might also apply, I suppose, if a country passed legislation that curbed any of its traditional rights like obtaining records without judicial oversight or surreptitious search warrants and seizures without court review - and, God knows, that could never happen here. And, I guess, this could also refer to things like securing rights for certain classes of people - like, say, heterosexuals - and excluding other classes of people - say, homosexuals - from those same rights. And we know that would would never happen here.

and it has become worse since. It was sarcasm then. Now it is daily reality old friend

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause Unless some perceived external threat were conjured up to instill fear in a majority of people in order to garner support for the ruling elite - like, oh I don't know, let's say "terrorists", for example - this could never apply. Of course, implied threats from within could be used to the same end - like creating some bugaboo along the lines of "a homosexual agenda" or even something as insidious as "activist judges" - but the American people would never fall for something like that, right? As this kind of thing is generally used to shift blame for failures, something as simplistic as "obstructionism" in a legislative body would probably also count, but again, no one in our government would stoop to that kind of tactic - nor would they resort to labelling their opposition as "traitors" or even "unpatriotic". So we needn't lose any sleep over that one.

The new regime hates the constitution, said as much. Hates checks and balances. It isn't even tongue and cheek anymore

4. Supremacy of the Military As Britt puts it in his assessment of the seven fascist regimes he analyzes, "A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite." That would never happen here in a million years.

Even worse since 2005 my friend.

5. Rampant Sexism In our post-feminist age, this would probably only apply if, say, a majority of business or religious leaders or legislators or judges were still male. Or - hahaha! - if women still earned less then men for doing the same job. It could also be argued that any questioning of reproductive rights would count as rather rampant sexism - and, of course, homophobia would be another class of sexism altogether - but, here in the US, we've moved beyond all that.

Yep, it got worse. So much worse. Can you imagine a President elected by a minority of US citizens, but those citizens are okay with a scumbag that says "just grab them by the pussy?

6. Controlled Mass Media This would only be a symptom of a fascist state if the media were in the hands of very few multinational corporations, all of which supported, collaborated with, and profited through deals engineered by the central government. As all of our national dailies and newsmagazines are owned by individual entrepreneurs and all of our television networks are in the hands of small independent companies that never indulge in lobbying and would perish at the thought of parroting government press releases, we have nothing to fear here, either. As Joe pointed out, Judith Miller alone is enough to demonstrate that we have an eminently free press. She was able to single-handedly invent justification for an invasion of Iraq with no interference from the federal government whatsoever - while on the payroll of a "liberal" paper!

Now Faux news is literally the propaganda arm of the Cheeto Twitler

7. Obsession with National Security Good grief. Until we establish a cabinet level agency specifically dedicated to national security in addition to a "Defense Department" and our leadership makes perceived external threats the top issue in all of their discourse or until our defense spending accounts for 80% of our national debt and agencies as diverse as the Department of Justice and the Department of Transportation dedicate up to 50% of their budgets to homeland security, this is just a paranoid fantasy.

get to take this to the next level, the moron the moron's elected says that Obama wire tapped his building.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined This one is just outrageous. As has already been stated, our Constitution stringently guarantees separation of church and state. No leader would even dream of advocating a "faith-based" initiative, no legislator has even contemplated framing a law based on the narrow moral beliefs of a single religion, no court has ever even had to hear a case based on the establishment clause, and not one citizen could even conceive of the US as "a Christian nation" any more than they could think of the US as "a Hindoo nation".

The new republican/nazi party wants to literally force muslims to wear public identification.

9. Corporate Power is Protected As we all know, the Fourteenth Amendment has been interpreted to treat corporations as individuals. Therefore, corporations themselves pay federal income tax with no more exemptions or loopholes than you or I and, should they commit fraud or pollute the air or water or knowingly endanger their employees or consumers, they are immediately liquidated and imprisoned. No corporation has ever profitted from ties to the government. Why, we even prohibit corporate leaders from holding public office, just so there's no conceivable conflict of interest. Right?

10. Labor Power is Suppressed We all know that in the good ol' US of A, labor unions are the ultimate authority in determining the rights of every worker in the country. Such a ridiculous notion as a "right to work" state will never fly here, no illegal immigrant can possibly find a job before every single citizen is gainfully employed, no worker can have so much as one cent of their pension threatened by white collar crime, not a single job can be farmed out to cheaper labor in another country, and everyone who earns a living wage (which is, well... everyone, right?) is guaranteed health benefits. So, obviously, we don't have to worry about this, either.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Puh-lease! Intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Edward Said and J.K. Galbraith and Arthur Schlesinger are among the most respected people in the country! And until artists like Robert Mapplethorpe or Andres Serrano have their work banned from publicly funded galleries or there are books removed from our school libraries or films are subjected to ratings and censorship or internet content is proscribed, this will be no threat at all.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment This would only apply if we punished victimless crimes or tried to abolish prostitution or regulated gambling or instituted something as flawed as "three strikes" laws or as inhuman as capital punishment or declared a "war" on drugs. Clearly, there's not a whiff of fascism in relation to crime in the US.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption This one doesn't even bear addressing. Hello - this is the United States we're talking about, people. Corruption? Cronyism? Don't make me laugh!

14. Fraudulent Elections As we all know, the United States still uses nothing but paper ballots, so that there's a record of every vote - and that each of those votes is counted by hand. There has never been and will never be a disputed election here, never mind an election that requires extraordinary intervention by the Supreme Court in order to decide a vote in favor of the loser or which requires oversight by an international body. Until there comes a day when someone can say "democracy is full of stories about voting irregularities" as though this were to be expected, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Oh wertz, it has become so much worse than this- it's a thread unto it's own.

I do not, of course, see any of the above as necessarily indicating that the US is headed toward fascism. But, as fascism is essentially an extremist reaction to liberalism, every step away from the progressive agenda of our founders is a step toward a fascist state. Again, I feel that Eco's description of "Ur-Fascism" is much more enlightening than Britt's historical list - and even more closely reflects some of what is happening in our country under our current leadership (even though it was written in 1995). It's worth a look.

I don't think even you Wertz were capable of seeing how far this board, it's members and the US were going towards fascism

Eco concludes his piece with a quote from FDR and it bears repeating here: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land." Are we moving forward? Are we bettering the lot of our citizens? All of our citizens? And through peaceful means? Or is fascism growing in strength in our land?




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Mrs. Pigpen
post May 3 2017, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 2 2017, 08:56 PM) *
yes, we are the most militarized nation on earth- even more so than North Korea.


That would depend on your definition of "militarized".
If it's human manpower, only roughly one out of every 300 US citizens is in the military. The DPRK has mandatory conscription and its percentage is a lot higher.
It's also a police state.

We do have the best military in the world. That's why we have security commitments all around the globe and people ask us to help them out.
When we make security commitments we're responsible for the security of those we've made commitments with, and that requires military kit and troops and a lot more expense than just policing one's own borders.

If your measure is military effectiveness we are definitely more "militarized" than the DPRK.
But by that measure just about every first world country is now "more militarized" than Nazi Germany.

If your argument is that we're becoming more militarized...
Before the first Gulf war we had around 130 fighter squadrons in the US and today we have 55.
Most of those squadrons are manned about 50 percent or less than 25 years ago.


This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: May 3 2017, 03:17 AM
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Trouble
post May 3 2017, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 1 2017, 08:51 PM) *
This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.

Considering that Trump literally lies outright and the right wing seems to not really care, and when I mean lie- there is no nuance or reality to it whatsoever, Not debatable points, nothing to do with facts- just makes crap up and it's okay. Same with Fox news. So there doesn't seem to be much point in debating a right winger anymore, just resist them, and this has been pretty much coming since Reagan decided to go the Christo-facsist way with conservatism in America. He has taken even to going about calling the press that fact check him "the lying press" (Hitler: Luggenpresse)

Some of the important elements of fascism:


1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)

3) The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. (Reagan started this, and fox news has run with it, pretty much the entire Republican party is completely fascist in this regard, as is many on this board now)

4) A strong sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary."

5) Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." (MURICA!)

6) Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. (Making America great again! Though modern times women can be fascist leaders- Sarah Palin, Ann Coultier, Margeret Thatcher)

7) "The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. (Trump has called for violence against his opponent several times)

Another important aspect is "the rebirth myth"- "Making America great again"- I think it is just as important as anti-liberalism in fact. Without it, you don't have fascism able to gain power from what I have seen.

Another set of definitions of fascism, which pretty much are ticked off one by one by anyone that even remotely supports the republican party today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?



That is a pretty fast and loose definition. The point of debate is to discuss the merits and flaws of any given subject through oration. That hasn't happened on campuses because every time a "Trump" supporter (think Milo, Cernovich) says something the crowd goes nuts and everything is shut down. To allude to violence on the Trump side misses the reaction of the students and misses the enormity of the no-go zones placed around free speech. Personally I think the degradations you are referring to are simply the descent into empire Chalmers Johnson warned about years ago. And that ain't a left or right thing so much as a corruption thing.

We'll have to agree to disagree with your definition of fascism. A more typical use of the word is the merger of state and corporate power. Trump is merely the latest incarnation of a bipartisan evolution. To damn him is to damn the process which started 25 years ago.

One of the more astute observers was Mussolini himself who defined fascism as "the horror inspired by a comfortable life." All you have described CruisingRam is an entrenchment or polarization of the sides. So the question I have has the comfortable life come and gone? If so you may have to alter the parameters of the discussion.

I'm having difficulty wrapping my mind around what is so terrible or exceptional about the current iteration of supporters that makes it taboo to talk? Help!

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Mrs. Pigpen
post May 3 2017, 08:19 AM
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Since I have insomnia...
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 2 2017, 08:56 PM) *
Faux news is now literally an arm of the government and the republican party. (Zucker from CNN was spot on)

If you are a republican, you are now a racist. There is no more middle ground. Your hatred of Islam and Mexicans is pretty evident. Just admit it.


A liberal blogger's thoughts related to this topic

QUOTE
Roberts says that these neutral gatekeeper institutions “tend to draw their personnel from left-leaning demographics”, as if this was just a big fuss about 105 New Englanders for every 100 Texans. I would like to counter with a report from a friend who graduated from a top university last year:

I was at my graduation last weekend, and the commencement address was basically about twenty minutes of vitriolic insults directed at Trump.
And in between burying my head in my friend’s shoulder in discomfort and laughing nervously, I was thinking about the family of this guy in my class.

He’s the first person in his family to go to college. He drove an hour every day to go to a somewhat better high school because there was an epidemic of gang violence at his local school. Against the odds, he did well, and got into college, where he has continued to get good grades and play sports and generally do things that make parents proud.

His family is not well off. They’re Mexican-American. And they’re Trump supporters.
(snip)

My mom thought this speech was So Courageous. When I suggested that it might have been more courageous to say something that not everyone there agreed with, she replied, “the students maybe, but a lot of the parents looked unhappy.”

Seventy percent of the parents there had family incomes over six figures. (More, probably, since low-income parents are less likely to attend graduation.) A lot of them are members of the self-perpetuating intellectual/economic elite. This probably isn’t true of the few Trump supporters among them.


Perhaps similar to to how only left wing vaginas "count", only left wing Mexicans count.

QUOTE
And the same thing is happening in the media. For example, in this very piece, Roberts cites a Vox poll showing that Trump supporters are more likely to be authoritarians. Vox has pushed this same claim many more times: Authoritarianism: The Political Science That Explains Trump, The Rise Of American Authoritarianism: A Niche Group Of Political Scientists May Have Uncovered What’s Driving Donald Trump’s Ascent, The Rise Of American Authoritarianism Explained In 6 Minutes, The Best Predictor Of Trump Support Is Authoritarianism.

Okay. But Vox is working off an internal poll that it hasn’t released (or at least I can’t find it) meaning no one has any idea if the sample size and methodology are okay. And some political science professors tried the same exercise around the same time with excellent methodology and a sample size of over a thousand and found the opposite – Trump supporters were less authoritarian than Cruz supporters, and no more authoritarian than Rubio supporters. They did find that Republicans were a bit more authoritarian than Democrats, but correctly noted that the measure involved is literally called “Right-Wing Authoritarianism”, is based on a scale invented by Theodor Adorno to prove conservatives had fascist tendencies, and only asks questions about child-rearing practices (you get marked as “authoritarian” if you have a traditional religious child-rearing style). And there are other investigations of authority that try to control for this sort of thing and sometimes find find liberals and conservatives are about equal in respect for authority.


Of course I'm selectively cherry-picking here. The article overall is not pro-Trump, but he is even handed and attempts to be objective and would not support your screed here.
In this article, he is pointing to exactly this type of communication style as the type of thing that is integral to the problem you (ostensibly) want to solve.
It's worth a read to anyone interested.

Edited to add:
I mentioned on another thread the problem with surrounding oneself with only people you agree with politically, marginalizing one's own opinions and placing anyone who doesn't fit into the "outlier" category. These ipso facto safe spaces aren't a reflection of reality. This happens to both sides. I can think of no better illustration than the following video.
Many people were against Chick fila's policies and this person erroneously believed the video of him berating a nice person at the Chick fila drive-thru would be well received for that reason.
He took this video and expected to receive applause and personal validation for a job well done (with perhaps the occasional, "haters" who could be ridiculed and easily dismissed).
Instead he lost a +200k income as a corporate CFO, and cannot find employment anymore.
Furthermore, the video had exactly the opposite impact he wanted.
Chick fila's popularity increased.

Chick fil a dude

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post May 3 2017, 11:35 PM
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Some interesting stats about our nation’s top 10 poorest cities (as of 2013 or so; ascending order of poverty rate, rounded off; last year said city had a Republican mayor in parentheses; link):

El Paso: 25% (never in its history, which dates back to 1873)
St. Louis: 26% (1949)
Newark: 26% (1907)
Cincinnati: 27% (1984)
Philadelphia: 28% (1952)
Milwaukee: 30% (1908)
Buffalo: 30% (1965)
Cleveland: 36% (1989)
Detroit: 36% (1962)
Camden: 42% (1936)

With “friends” of underprivileged minorities like that, who needs racists?


ps (for good measure):

From a 2014 article titled “The U.S. Cities Where the Poor Are Most Segregated From Everyone Else” (descending rank order, i.e. from worst to "best"):

1. Milwaukee-…

3. Philadelphia-Camden-…
4. Cleveland-...
5. Detroit-…

7. Buffalo-…

9. Baltimore-…



ps2:

"Look how much [the] African-American community has suffered under Democratic control. To those I say the following: ... What the hell do you have to lose?"

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post May 4 2017, 12:05 PM
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A couple of things:

First, there seems to be this misconception that, because you choose not the be friends with someone, you close yourself off to their opinions. That isn't true. I have no friends that are Trump supporters. This doesn't mean I am unwilling to listen to the opinions of Trump supporters, it just means we don't share core views that I find important to maintain a friendship. But the same can be said for some Clinton supporters and other liberals and conservatives. I've dropped liberal friends who engage in the same sort of behavior and rhetoric as the conservatives I can't be friends with - it's a person problem, not limited to one party or political bent.

I've had some constructive exchanges with Trump supporters on Twitter and in person. I am not friends with these people, but that doesn't mean we can't engage in constructive discourse.

Second, the notion that all Republicans are racist and fascist is preposterous and not supported by facts.
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post May 4 2017, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ May 4 2017, 07:05 AM) *
First, there seems to be this misconception that, because you choose not the be friends with someone, you close yourself off to their opinions. That isn't true. I have no friends that are Trump supporters. This doesn't mean I am unwilling to listen to the opinions of Trump supporters, it just means we don't share core views that I find important to maintain a friendship. But the same can be said for some Clinton supporters and other liberals and conservatives. I've dropped liberal friends who engage in the same sort of behavior and rhetoric as the conservatives I can't be friends with - it's a person problem, not limited to one party or political bent.

I've had some constructive exchanges with Trump supporters on Twitter and in person. I am not friends with these people, but that doesn't mean we can't engage in constructive discourse.

Second, the notion that all Republicans are racist and fascist is preposterous and not supported by facts.


All good points.
My answer above regarding echo chamberism was in the context of the style of the topic post, and also what I see in life (both online and off line).
It is true one doesn't have to close oneself off to other opinion but in life it does seem to happen that way for most people.

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post May 4 2017, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ May 4 2017, 08:05 AM) *
...
Second, the notion that all Republicans are racist and fascist is preposterous and not supported by facts.

Even the notion that more than a tiny minority of Republicans are racists and fascists is preposterous. As preposterous as the notion that more than a tiny minority of Democrats are deranged enough to actually believe that Republican = Racist and Fascist.

ps:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-wh...hite-democrats/
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post May 4 2017, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 4 2017, 08:16 AM) *
QUOTE(entspeak @ May 4 2017, 07:05 AM) *
First, there seems to be this misconception that, because you choose not the be friends with someone, you close yourself off to their opinions. That isn't true. I have no friends that are Trump supporters. This doesn't mean I am unwilling to listen to the opinions of Trump supporters, it just means we don't share core views that I find important to maintain a friendship. But the same can be said for some Clinton supporters and other liberals and conservatives. I've dropped liberal friends who engage in the same sort of behavior and rhetoric as the conservatives I can't be friends with - it's a person problem, not limited to one party or political bent.

I've had some constructive exchanges with Trump supporters on Twitter and in person. I am not friends with these people, but that doesn't mean we can't engage in constructive discourse.

Second, the notion that all Republicans are racist and fascist is preposterous and not supported by facts.


All good points.
My answer above regarding echo chamberism was in the context of the style of the topic post, and also what I see in life (both online and off line).
It is true one doesn't have to close oneself off to other opinion but in life it does seem to happen that way for most people.

Or at least for some people.

I have not ever met a Trump supporter, nor people who share his opinions -- whatever they may be. He's a moving entity, hard to tell what's inside there. However, I don't mingle so much any longer, and since a lot of my time is spent with music and guitars, there really isn't much room for debate.

But I do remember Nixon supporters. They got very, very quiet after his resignation. A similar thing will happen with Trump, probably more dramatic. Maybe it'll be public meltdown, maybe him getting arrested and hauled off to jail, and of course most likely, something entirely different than what I'm imagining.

Whatever it becomes, it's for sure that his present-day supporters will act the same as Nixon supporters did. Maybe some of his minions will get talk radio shows. Others might find Jesus in the pokey. There will be books galore written on the subject, TV/Hulu/Netflix specials.

Anyway, my circle of friends is extremely small, and a lot of what remains has strings and frets. If I manage to gig again, there will be more humans in the mix. There probably won't be anyone remotely like Trump due to how real estate moguls don't have anything in common with sonic Sherpas.
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post May 4 2017, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 2 2017, 05:11 PM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 2 2017, 08:56 PM) *
yes, we are the most militarized nation on earth- even more so than North Korea.


That would depend on your definition of "militarized".
If it's human manpower, only roughly one out of every 300 US citizens is in the military. The DPRK has mandatory conscription and its percentage is a lot higher.
It's also a police state.

We do have the best military in the world. That's why we have security commitments all around the globe and people ask us to help them out.
When we make security commitments we're responsible for the security of those we've made commitments with, and that requires military kit and troops and a lot more expense than just policing one's own borders.

If your measure is military effectiveness we are definitely more "militarized" than the DPRK.
But by that measure just about every first world country is now "more militarized" than Nazi Germany.

If your argument is that we're becoming more militarized...
Before the first Gulf war we had around 130 fighter squadrons in the US and today we have 55.
Most of those squadrons are manned about 50 percent or less than 25 years ago.


It is the massive % of our GDP that makes us by far the most militarized society on earth. I believe we are at about 27% of the overall budget? Give or take a % or two? I believe we sstill spend more on our military than the next 7-8 developed countries that are our allies. To say we can't afford x or y social program while literally spending trillions on things like the gulf war is insane, literally insane. We can't afford to pay for college for all US citizens or health care because we need to feed our military machine, so yeah, we are by far the most militarized country in the world. We are actually as bad as north korea in this aspect- we are letting US citizens go without so that we can pay for our military on a massive, insane scale.
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post May 4 2017, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 4 2017, 02:13 PM) *
It is the massive % of our GDP that makes us by far the most militarized society on earth. I believe we are at about 27% of the overall budget? Give or take a % or two?


We spend 3.3 percent of our GDP on the military.
That's 16 percent of the overall budget. Operations and maintenance costs make up half of that.

QUOTE
I believe we still spend more on our military than the next 7-8 developed countries that are our allies.


"The next 7-8 developed nations allies" is a meaningless figure without context.
And those developed countries who are our allies should probably be investing in their military more too.
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post May 4 2017, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 4 2017, 09:55 AM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 4 2017, 02:13 PM) *
It is the massive % of our GDP that makes us by far the most militarized society on earth. I believe we are at about 27% of the overall budget? Give or take a % or two?


We spend 3.3 percent of our GDP on the military.
That's 16 percent of the overall budget. Operations and maintenance costs make up half of that.

QUOTE
I believe we still spend more on our military than the next 7-8 developed countries that are our allies.


"The next 7-8 developed nations allies" is a meaningless figure without context.
And those developed countries who are our allies should probably be investing in their military more too.



Does that figure include discretionary spending? 5-10% more than that?

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-defe...-massive-2015-8

And I was wrong- our expeditures are more than double of Russia, Saudi Arabia and China combined- our "rivals" in the military (okay, Saudi Arabia, though technically our ally, but with friends like those, who needs enemas?) - this is a straight up fact that we are a militarized society, and ANY talks of cutting the military brings out the very worst of the goose stepping types. We have been in some kind of military conflict for more than 90% of our nations history, most of it military adventurism and outright bad behavior by us- the second gulf war is a perfect example.

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post May 4 2017, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 4 2017, 04:14 PM) *
Does that figure include discretionary spending? 5-10% more than that?


I don't know what you're talking about CR.
I think the entire military budget is "discretionary spending".
That's why when it comes time to make cuts to the budget the military is the first on the chopping block.
There's only about 32 percent of the entire federal budget is in the discretionary spending category.
The military makes up half of it.
It's also why they attach pork projects to it.
That's why recently a base put two million dollars into a gym (construction project that brought jobs to that district) when there wasn't 100,000 available to pay for jet fuel to train...the actual reason the base was there in the first place.

Just as a side note, we don't know how much China spends on military. They aren't that forthcoming. We don't even know their real GDP.

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post May 5 2017, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 4 2017, 05:36 PM) *
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 4 2017, 04:14 PM) *
Does that figure include discretionary spending? 5-10% more than that?


I don't know what you're talking about CR.
I think the entire military budget is "discretionary spending".
That's why when it comes time to make cuts to the budget the military is the first on the chopping block.
There's only about 32 percent of the entire federal budget is in the discretionary spending category.
The military makes up half of it.
It's also why they attach pork projects to it.
That's why recently a base put two million dollars into a gym (construction project that brought jobs to that district) when there wasn't 100,000 available to pay for jet fuel to train...the actual reason the base was there in the first place.

Edited to add:
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 4 2017, 04:14 PM) *
And I was wrong- our expeditures are more than double of Russia, Saudi Arabia and China combined- our "rivals" in the military (okay, Saudi Arabia, though technically our ally, but with friends like those, who needs enemas?) - this is a straight up fact that we are a militarized society, and ANY talks of cutting the military brings out the very worst of the goose stepping types. We have been in some kind of military conflict for more than 90% of our nations history, most of it military adventurism and outright bad behavior by us- the second gulf war is a perfect example.


And who are China, Saudi, and Russia involved in security agreements with?
To my knowledge, Syria is about the only one asking Russia to help out. They aren't involved in security agreements around the globe. That's what I mean by context. What are the security obligations and what are costs to gains?
I have spent not one dollar on golf in my entire life. Tiger Woods has spent millions. Are my budget and Tiger's a reasonable comparison?
What if I need to win a golf game against Tiger Woods?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ry_expenditures

Seems the principle at work here is that cutting government expenditures for someone else is a lot easier than cutting expenditures for yourself. This is likely why Trump supporters and Trump detractors don't get along.

Related, everybody thinks their expenditures are vital for the nation. For example, the US military would be in sad shape if it weren't for citizens having good enough jobs to pay the taxes that support the military. Thank God(in) for divas racking up millions gleaned from their tween and sexually frustrated middle-aged male followers/voyeurs!

So support the arts if you wanna play global militaristic politics, eh? Then the fly boys will get their gas, thereby filing the sky with the sound of freedom that prompts guitarists to buy stuff like sound suppression (heh) materials, more powerful amps and so on. It's the circle of economic life.

I'd probably not get along with Trump supporters because our president is such a moron when it comes to how life actually works. Kill the middle class and you kill America, pointing it toward a dystopia to rival N. Korea or those nations in Africa suffering famine (pant pant, hyperbolic spasms). How better to do this than putting health care out of reach for tens of millions? You know, while keeping wages flat in an economy that is healthiest with inflation at around 2% per year, unemployment around 5%?

Meanwhile, our beloved leader admires tyrants in other countries while bitching about how Congress thwarts his greatest glories.

Yeah, I'd not get along with Trump supporters. It's a good thing I don't even want to try. Like a broken string, the only thing to do is change it. There's no fix for the broken string itself other than recycling.

I'm thinking kitty chow, KFC-sourced.
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post May 5 2017, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 1 2017, 10:51 PM) *
This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.

Considering that Trump literally lies outright and the right wing seems to not really care, and when I mean lie- there is no nuance or reality to it whatsoever, Not debatable points, nothing to do with facts- just makes crap up and it's okay. Same with Fox news. So there doesn't seem to be much point in debating a right winger anymore, just resist them, and this has been pretty much coming since Reagan decided to go the Christo-facsist way with conservatism in America. He has taken even to going about calling the press that fact check him "the lying press" (Hitler: Luggenpresse)

Some of the important elements of fascism:


1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)

3) The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. (Reagan started this, and fox news has run with it, pretty much the entire Republican party is completely fascist in this regard, as is many on this board now)

4) A strong sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary."

5) Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." (MURICA!)

6) Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. (Making America great again! Though modern times women can be fascist leaders- Sarah Palin, Ann Coultier, Margeret Thatcher)

7) "The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. (Trump has called for violence against his opponent several times)

Another important aspect is "the rebirth myth"- "Making America great again"- I think it is just as important as anti-liberalism in fact. Without it, you don't have fascism able to gain power from what I have seen.

Another set of definitions of fascism, which pretty much are ticked off one by one by anyone that even remotely supports the republican party today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

So, the question is, there used to be a time you could "agree to disagree".

Does that still exist?

Would have the majority of Germans that DID NOT vote for Hitler had a much safer history if they had stopped being friends with those that voted for Hitler?

Can you reason with a Fascist, or a Trump supporter?

Do you believe that being a Trump supporter is NOT a fascist position and why?

Most importantly, should you cut all ties with a Trump supporter and do everything you can to legally either shun or destroy them as fascists?


Are you serious with this thread? Oh brother, what to do.....

So the reason we don't have as many active members at AD is because of conservatives? I highly doubt it, active membership started dropping off when Mike and Jamie stopped the radio program and stopped updating the site with new forums, that's common knowledge here.

Your theory is based on your own bias and completely disregards the fact that liberals and conservatives debate all over the internet in high numbers. If anything the amount of debating online has gone up and has gotten increasingly heated. You could go as far as to say that some people like arguing with those they consider unreasonable. As an example, I occasionally go to a website called Christianforums.com and the website has an Athiest following. Members who (in some cases) join the website just to let Christians know how ridiculous they think they are.

Your theory fails on so many levels that I wonder how you develop your opinions. I've read your comments here for years and it's usually the same, its almost as if you wake up and tell yourself "I'm just going to say some liberal stuff today and see how it goes". Think outside the box for once. If you have a nonpartisan bone in your body it's begging to be exercised.

To address your feelings on Trump voters... Would I be friends with a Trump voter? If they're reasonable with me then yes!! Would you be friends with a Hillary voter? The left was responsible for more vulgar language and more violence during this election season than any political group by a long shot, and it's very easy to demonstrate. (try me)

Also, to tackle the very first two "elements of fascism" that you listed...

QUOTE
1) The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. (any Trump speech will pretty much show this)

2) Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. ( um, duh?)


There are groups on the left who are desperately lost in those types of mindsets and I'd be baffled by anyone who can't see that or acknowledge it. What you're really addressing is a problem that's present in many political and social groups. Would I be friends with a Hillary voter? If they weren't one of the protesters spouting violent rhetoric or assaulting others and if they treat me with respect for the position I hold then absolutely. Those people are out there on both sides of the isle, if you can't see that then you're looking in the wrong places or don't want to see it because reasonable Trump voters wouldn't help your agenda to taint that group.

So you're coming from one of two places here, either you're intentionally trying to taint a political group you can't stand, or you haven't been able to handle debating them. (possibly both) If you personally can't handle a debate then you're free to go whenever you want, and if it's that you want to degrade your political opponents and make them out to be horrible people.... Well man, you fit right in with the extremist who have divided us and frustrated about every sane person who would rather see people just get along and work together where possible.

Your misplaced blame in regards to waning AD participation comes from this type of thinking...

QUOTE
CruisingRam "liberal democrats have been 100% correct on every position they have taken since Bill Clinton- proven right in every way."


These are positions that are so extreme that I guarantee that Barak Obama himself would reject them. Yet the conservative members haven't given up talking to you have they? They're not so bad but (as I said), if you can't handle the debates or have a deep seeded disgust of your political opponents then you're free to go whenever you want Mr.






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akaCG
post May 5 2017, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 2 2017, 09:56 PM) *

yes, we are the most militarized nation on earth- even more so than North Korea.

Good grief. What unadulterated piffle!

NK's military personnel, at about 6 million, comprise close to a quarter of its population. The U.S. active and reserve military personnel, at about 2 million, comprise about ... 0.6% of its population. NK's military eats up more than 20% of its GDP. The U.S.? About 3.3%.

Here, for perspective, are some more examples of military expenditures as a % of GDP (descending order):

Israel: 5.8
Russia: 5.3
Singapore: 3.4
U.S.: 3.3
Iran: 3.0
S. Korea: 2.7
India: 2.5
France: 2.3

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Hobbes
post May 8 2017, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 1 2017, 08:51 PM) *
This board has pretty much gone dead, a few die-hards, but the main reason IMHO is that most sane people have pretty much thrown up their hands and walked away from any attempt to debate the right wing anymore, most believing they have gone so far down the road of fascism that there is no way to debate or even have a sane conversation with those kind of people. You can see by the pretty inane threads here now, nothing really controversial that goes to the heart of the real problem in America, It is not that Trump exists, and the Republican party as we know it today exists, it is that there are millions who support this filth. Pretty much, being a republican today is nothing more than being a member of the new American version of the Nazis, except you tend to hate Muslims and Mexicans instead of Jews and gypsies.


A better example of Trump Derangement Syndrome could not be found...and the main reason not much debate occurs, here or elsewhere, is because TDS and constructive conversation live in completely different realms, and the two can never cross.

Not that there isn't lots to criticize about Trump...but having any reasoned discussion about it is completely impossible. Not because of the right...because of the left. You know, those supposedly inclusive types that would willingly see anyone who even tries to be objective about Trump shot dead in the street. That type of inclusion. You can't have reasoned discussions with that...so there isn't any point in even trying.
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