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> Is The Tea Party a Democratic Party conspiracy?, A Michigan Appeals Court Decision
Curmudgeon
post Sep 2 2010, 02:55 PM
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Occasionally, a news story just catches me by surprise. The following was excerpted from yesterday's newspaper:
QUOTE
Republicans and tea party activists say "The Tea Party," which has nominated nearly two dozen candidates, is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates. "The Tea Party" is being investigated following allegations that some of its potential candidates may have been nominated through fraud. link
In Michigan, The Tea Party won't be allowed on the ballot due to an appeals court ruling that the word "the" was not in 24-point bold face type on the petitions as required by law.

The surprising part of the story to me though was the allegation that The Tea Party is a Democratic Party plot to divide Republican voters. Admittedly, we have been watching MSNBC, where The Tea Party has been painted as a plot by Fox News to generate a grass roots revolution.

Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?

In the newspaper story, it stated: "Republicans and tea party activists say 'The Tea Party,' <snip> is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates." If this had been a jury trial, would that allegation seem credible to you as a juror?


This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: Sep 2 2010, 02:56 PM
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 5 2010, 12:40 AM
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QUOTE(scubatim)
I have yet to see you call CR out when he says something along the lines of 'Tea Partiers are SUV driving racist homophobes with nothing better to do' or 'A bunch of rich, overweight white people afraid of brown skinned people'.
As far as the "tu quoque" statement regarding CR, It's really not my job to call him out on this. To make you happy, yes, CR uses the broad brushstroke as well as evidenced by his signature, but I was not responding to CR in this thread. I was responding (basically) to what Raptavio said, because I think he knows better than that.

QUOTE(scubatim)
Just because a group you associate with has been called to the carpet for something that has been proven to be true and you might be a little red faced for that group, doesn't mean you can start calling out the brush strokes now. If you feel as if you are being lumped with that group, that is an issue for yourself, not those that are ok with stating the facts.
Red faced? I really don't care about what they did. I have other concerns. And I don't need your permission to call people out on it, either. I just know a lot of decent Democratic party members who would not do that. Now if these same people called on the carpet had heretofore been grandstanding about integrity or moral values the way the members of the opposition party like to--and I knew it--then I would be more upset about it.

In the meantime, meh. All donkeys are not alike any more than all elephants are.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Sep 5 2010, 12:43 AM
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Raptavio
post Sep 5 2010, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 04:58 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim)
At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....

People can be intellectually, honestly wrong, you know. Again, please be careful with the broad brushstrokes.


PE, for purposes of this discussion, The Tea Party (note the all caps) is a specific political "party" with a specific structure, running candidates and seeking official recognition in Michigan, which is a Democratic front. The evidence of this is conclusive.

This has nothing to do with the larger Tea Party movements which are generally peopled by white conservatives who vote Republican, and include thousands of Michiganders.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 5 2010, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 4 2010, 09:14 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 04:58 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim)
At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....

People can be intellectually, honestly wrong, you know. Again, please be careful with the broad brushstrokes.


PE, for purposes of this discussion, The Tea Party (note the all caps) is a specific political "party" with a specific structure, running candidates and seeking official recognition in Michigan, which is a Democratic front. The evidence of this is conclusive.

This has nothing to do with the larger Tea Party movements which are generally peopled by white conservatives who vote Republican, and include thousands of Michiganders.

Okay--you're saying it is a Democratic conspiracy in THE TEA PARTY. The evidence pointed to a former stepmother of a former leader of the Oakland Democratic party, and a candidate that placed last in the 2008 Democratic primary. Could it be that the person who placed last decided to change parties in order to win? As I wrote before, Arlen Specter did the same thing when he left the Republicans and joined the Democrats amid much hoopla at the time. It didn't work for him this year, though.

It has so far not been shown that THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY proper was involved, and they are denying it. Sounds like some renegades were involved, "mavericks" if you will.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/third-...november-ballot
QUOTE
One candidate put forth by The Tea Party was the former stepmother of the former leader of the Oakland County Democratic Party, and another had placed last in a 2008 Democratic primary.

The revalations [sic] forced the resignation of the Oakland County Democratic Party chairman and the firing of a country Democratic organizer. The state of Michigan is investigating, and the state Democratic Party claims no ties to The Tea Party ballot effort.


I do not know the size or the membership of THE TEA PARTY. Are you suggesting that it is TOTALLY a Democratic plot in Michigan? Because that's how I read what you said.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Sep 5 2010, 04:01 PM
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Curmudgeon
post Sep 5 2010, 07:35 PM
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One of the questions I asked was:

In the newspaper story, it stated: "Republicans and tea party activists say 'The Tea Party,' <snip> is a fake party controlled by Democrats aimed at drawing away votes from Republican candidates." If this had been a jury trial, would that allegation seem credible to you as a juror?

Apparently, the overwhelming answer is, "Yes! We saw this story on The Internets, so it must be true."

On April 1, 1957,the BBC's "Panorama" TV show reported on the "spaghetti harvest" in Switzerland. (I'd provide a link, but I found 32,600 links to the story.) That story was picked up by network news and shown around the world. I have seen it several times, and I didn't have access to a television in 1957, so it was apparently a story that "had legs." An admitted hoax, it is still being covered half a century later. My history teacher at the time told our class that Spaghetti was actually a dish which Marco Polo brought back from his excursions to China. Wheat at the time of Marco Polo was primarily a crop of North Africa and Europe. I have never seen spaghetti served as a dish in a Chinese Restaurant. I know that I can still "harvest" ready to cook spaghetti from my local grocery shelves, and that cook books have described the manufacturing process in enough detail that I know that I don't want to prepare it from scratch. I think it is The X-Files which claims, "The truth is out there."

Persuading a non-voter to go to the polls and vote Republican does not seem a worthwhile goal to me as a Democrat. I sincerely hope my party has not wasted its few resources in that fashion. I doubt that "Conservative Republicans" really want to foment a revolution in America in the hopes of forming a new Capitalism Based Nation while "exporting Democracy" at the point of a gun in the hopes of generating a larger customer base for Christmas sales in the Middle East. I hope that The Tea Party Movement is really just a Fox News / NRA conspiracy to create a news story to cover, rather than paying actual reporters to discover what's going on in the world. Then again, I have never seen an actual FOX news program, just a "live" broadcast of a night television game at 10:00 AM. Perhaps FOX news is just an MSNBC Hoax. I tried to watch the 11:00 news on CBS last night. There was a tennis match on. It was still being played when I woke up this morning.

The "upgrade" to digital television has added the word pixillate to my vocabulary. I thought that described what was happening to the pictures on my television screen, (The picture freezes to about 128 colored squares and the sound stops broadcasting.) but a search to check the spelling seems to indicate it describes a musical technique. At any rate, with the "expanded selection" available to me on our single working television, (The cable installer would not connect our second television because, "Our equipment isn't compatible with this piece of garbage.") I daily have fewer television channels (about 30 today) that I can actually watch. (And more commercials to tell me, "Shacks got your back!") The Remote Control is so finicky that I have to have PE turn the TV on and off and change the channel for me. I can't get help from CONCAST because my name is not on the bill.

The newspapers I used to read daily are disappearing. Home delivery of The Muskegon Chronicle is now restricted to motor routes and is unreliable. The Detroit Free Press is no longer available in my local convenience store. Radio stations no longer attempt to interrupt with news at the top of the hour.

America's Debate remains my final reality check...when we can connect to the Internet.
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Raptavio
post Sep 5 2010, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 5 2010, 10:32 AM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 4 2010, 09:14 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 4 2010, 04:58 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim)
At least there is that point of intellectual honesty....

People can be intellectually, honestly wrong, you know. Again, please be careful with the broad brushstrokes.


PE, for purposes of this discussion, The Tea Party (note the all caps) is a specific political "party" with a specific structure, running candidates and seeking official recognition in Michigan, which is a Democratic front. The evidence of this is conclusive.

This has nothing to do with the larger Tea Party movements which are generally peopled by white conservatives who vote Republican, and include thousands of Michiganders.

Okay--you're saying it is a Democratic conspiracy in THE TEA PARTY. The evidence pointed to a former stepmother of a former leader of the Oakland Democratic party, and a candidate that placed last in the 2008 Democratic primary. Could it be that the person who placed last decided to change parties in order to win? As I wrote before, Arlen Specter did the same thing when he left the Republicans and joined the Democrats amid much hoopla at the time. It didn't work for him this year, though.

It has so far not been shown that THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY proper was involved, and they are denying it. Sounds like some renegades were involved, "mavericks" if you will.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/third-...november-ballot
QUOTE
One candidate put forth by The Tea Party was the former stepmother of the former leader of the Oakland County Democratic Party, and another had placed last in a 2008 Democratic primary.

The revalations [sic] forced the resignation of the Oakland County Democratic Party chairman and the firing of a country Democratic organizer. The state of Michigan is investigating, and the state Democratic Party claims no ties to The Tea Party ballot effort.


I do not know the size or the membership of THE TEA PARTY. Are you suggesting that it is TOTALLY a Democratic plot in Michigan? Because that's how I read what you said.


I'm not interested in the question of whether it's the Democratic Party proper or merely 'renegades' who were trying to split the GOP vote to benefit Democrats. Either way, it was a tactic, and not a legitimate party. Considering two Michigan Democratic party officials resigned over this. The former stepmother in question didn't even know she was a candidate. It's pretty clear this movement is all about political shenanigans, and THAT was my only point.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 5 2010, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio)
Either way, it was a tactic, and not a legitimate party.

And I am saying that it is a matter of degree, not an all or nothing proposition. Can the rotten part be cut away and still have an edible piece of fruit? I am saying that the people involved in the malfeasance rendered that part of the party illegitimate, but there should be people within leadership and the rank and file that are still legitimate.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Sep 5 2010, 10:10 PM
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Raptavio
post Sep 6 2010, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 5 2010, 05:08 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio)
Either way, it was a tactic, and not a legitimate party.

And I am saying that it is a matter of degree, not an all or nothing proposition. Can the rotten part be cut away and still have an edible piece of fruit? I am saying that the people involved in the malfeasance rendered that part of the party illegitimate, but there should be people within leadership and the rank and file that are still legitimate.


At this time, it seems unlikely. It's possible, though. We need more information to ascertain that.
But organizations such as this are typically inorganic and as such don't give anyone but their handpicked people leadership or candidate positions.
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Jobius
post Sep 7 2010, 06:06 PM
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Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?
There was a similar "Tea Party of Nevada" organization set up by no one who had previously been associated with any tea party events. Republicans went after their senate candidate, Scott Ashijian, but that story kind of dropped off the radar after Sharron Angle (another lower-case tea party favorite) won the Republican nomination.

In Arizona, some Republicans are working a similar scam: they didn't create a new party, but they've recruited homeless people to run on the Green Party ticket, presumably in an attempt to split the Democratic vote.

I agree with Raptavio, it's a pretty low tactic, whoever's doing it.
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Raptavio
post Sep 7 2010, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE(Jobius @ Sep 7 2010, 01:06 PM) *
Is this just a local story, or are Republicans blocking the Tea Party from the ballot in other states?
There was a similar "Tea Party of Nevada" organization set up by no one who had previously been associated with any tea party events. Republicans went after their senate candidate, Scott Ashijian, but that story kind of dropped off the radar after Sharron Angle (another lower-case tea party favorite) won the Republican nomination.

In Arizona, some Republicans are working a similar scam: they didn't create a new party, but they've recruited homeless people to run on the Green Party ticket, presumably in an attempt to split the Democratic vote.

I agree with Raptavio, it's a pretty low tactic, whoever's doing it.


Meanwhile, of course, people forget about Alvin Greene.
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Jobius
post Sep 7 2010, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 7 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Meanwhile, of course, people forget about Alvin Greene.

Aw, who could forget Alvin Greene? When I say "Alvin," you say GREENE!

Alvin!

...anyone?

But seriously, has anyone found a link between Greene and South Carolina Republicans? I know people were skeptical about how he came up with the filing fee, but South Carolina law enforcement investigated, and determined that he'd paid with his own money. It would be a strange thing for South Carolina Republicans to spend much effort on, what with their own contested gubernatorial primary, and the fact that DeMint looked like a mortal lock for reelection no matter who won the Democratic Senate primary.
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Raptavio
post Sep 7 2010, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE(Jobius @ Sep 7 2010, 03:46 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 7 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Meanwhile, of course, people forget about Alvin Greene.

Aw, who could forget Alvin Greene? When I say "Alvin," you say GREENE!

Alvin!

...anyone?

But seriously, has anyone found a link between Greene and South Carolina Republicans? I know people were skeptical about how he came up with the filing fee, but South Carolina law enforcement investigated, and determined that he'd paid with his own money. It would be a strange thing for South Carolina Republicans to spend much effort on, what with their own contested gubernatorial primary, and the fact that DeMint looked like a mortal lock for reelection no matter who won the Democratic Senate primary.


The fact that he won the primary at all suggests shenanigans. I mean, stranger things have happened, but still.

Here's a more fun one, though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/us/polit...rss&emc=rss

Arizona GOP is slipping Green Party candidates on the ballot. Desperation? Doubt it, Brewer's embarrassing debate and post-debate performance last week notwithstanding.
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AuthorMusician
post Sep 8 2010, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 7 2010, 05:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Jobius @ Sep 7 2010, 03:46 PM) *
QUOTE(Raptavio @ Sep 7 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Meanwhile, of course, people forget about Alvin Greene.

Aw, who could forget Alvin Greene? When I say "Alvin," you say GREENE!

Alvin!

...anyone?

But seriously, has anyone found a link between Greene and South Carolina Republicans? I know people were skeptical about how he came up with the filing fee, but South Carolina law enforcement investigated, and determined that he'd paid with his own money. It would be a strange thing for South Carolina Republicans to spend much effort on, what with their own contested gubernatorial primary, and the fact that DeMint looked like a mortal lock for reelection no matter who won the Democratic Senate primary.


The fact that he won the primary at all suggests shenanigans. I mean, stranger things have happened, but still.

Here's a more fun one, though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/us/polit...rss&emc=rss

Arizona GOP is slipping Green Party candidates on the ballot. Desperation? Doubt it, Brewer's embarrassing debate and post-debate performance last week notwithstanding.


The most important things about these election season shenanigans is that the Democrats don't do it well and the Republicans are masters at the sleaze:

Maddow Nails It

The most funny thing about this tactic is that come November, it won't make any difference in the outcomes. The coming elections are not about ideologies but about what the hell works. Sitting on your duff and saying no to literally everything doesn't work. Shouting about fake issues doesn't work. Picking on the defenseless doesn't work.

Some people like to think about politics as sporting events. Nope, that's a false analogy. It's similar to thinking that dogs are the same as cats -- true only up to a certain degree. Yup, mammals, four legs, fur, tails . . . but then the thinking falls apart once the details are understood.

This bit about exploiting third-parties to bolster the favored major party is only done effectively by Republicans. Democrats fail at it, and if one cares to pay attention, Democrats actually in the party know it. Up until recently, this has been seen as a weakness in the Democratic Party. The conclusion was that Republicans are great at winning elections but suck at governing. This time around, the inability to match Republican sleaze is a strength and so is the ability of Democrats to govern once elected.

Actually, the point was proven in 2008. All Democrats have to do is keep on the path of actually doing something about our problems rather than promising that hey, what happened last time? We really didn't mean it. It wasn't our fault. The dog ate our homework! There was a flood! Space aliens controlled our minds!

Note that cats never eat homework.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 8 2010, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician)
This bit about exploiting third-parties to bolster the favored major party is only done effectively by Republicans. Democrats fail at it, and if one cares to pay attention, Democrats actually in the party know it. Up until recently, this has been seen as a weakness in the Democratic Party. The conclusion was that Republicans are great at winning elections but suck at governing. This time around, the inability to match Republican sleaze is a strength and so is the ability of Democrats to govern once elected.

You might be right. I do note that it was an appeals court decision, not the original court decision.

I think one failure on the part of some Democrats in office is to recognize that much of this Republican blather about wanting bipartisanship is just that. The Republicans do seem to be far more interested in just winning than actually meeting the needs of their constituents, and I mean the little guys in their districts who can't lavish money on them during their campaigns. Winning is everything to them. Serving? Not so much.

Hence Sharron Angle's statements that Medicare and Social Security should be eliminated, and that workers who are laid off will get too used to "entitlements" as their job search spreads over months and they don't otherwise have incomes. Hence her statement of making lemons into lemonade, i.e., forcing rape victims to bear the children of their rapists. Then she doesn't want to talk to the news media unless they stick to questions she wants to answer. rolleyes.gif

But we're not talking about Sharron Angle here, really. I have heard more about the Michigan Tea Party situation and yes, it does appear that that organization was controlled by some Democrats. Shame on them. Apparently they could not resist playing on the gullibility of some Tea types and they seized the opportunity. They were going to get away with it too, I guess, except that the accepted font for their documents had to be size 14. Curses! Foiled by Font 14!!!

Now why couldn't they have just poured their energy into working for the Democratic Party in Michigan? Why not do it fair and square? Of course, those involved in the Watergate break-in of the National Democratic Party Headquarters might have chosen the "fair and square" way of working for their boss, Tricky Dick, too. But that wasn't what he wanted.

Politics becomes a very dirty thing when it is power and influence that leaders want, rather than serving the American people and thereby making this country a better place.
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