logo 
spacer
  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

If you have an opinion, you should share it! Register Now!

America's Debate hosts the best in news, government, and political debate. Register now to take part in the most civil and constructive debate on the Internet. Join the community, and get ready to be challenged!

Click here to start

> Sponsored Links

Register to remove these ads!

> Welcome to the America's Debate Archive!

Topics that have had no new replies in the last 180 days are moved to the archive.

New replies are not accepted once a topic is moved to the archive, and new topics cannot be started in the archive.

> The Gaza Pullout
Sleeper
post Aug 18 2005, 02:01 PM
Post #1


********
Who dat!

Sponsor
February 2004

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 1,692
Member No.: 386
Joined: January-17-03

From: Florida
Gender: Male
Politics: Independent
Party affiliation: Independent



I am surprised this has not been mentioned here on ad.gif as a debate topic so I will start one based off of today's events.

To protest the order by Sharon to pull out of the Gaza Strip after almost 4 decades of settlers living there many took up hold in a synagogue to protest the pullout. Israeli troops entered the synagogue and began removing the protestors one by one. (This is actually happening live as I type this)

Link to story

Questions for debate:

Was the decision by Sharon to pull out of the Gaza strip in the best interest of Israeli people?

Routinely in the US we do not enter religious establishments in the name of surveillance or for tactical reasons. Is the Israeli's use of force in this instance acceptable?

This post has been edited by Sleeper: Aug 18 2005, 02:01 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 28)
loreng59
post Aug 19 2005, 10:24 AM
Post #21


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Members
Posts: 835
Member No.: 2,830
Joined: March-31-04

From: Monterey, California
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Republican



QUOTE(Eeyore @ Aug 18 2005, 07:47 PM)
What I like about the two-state solution is that once Palestine is granted full statehood it can be held accountable for its actions and the actions conducted from its borders.  I would support an aggressive policy by Israel against an independent Palestine should attacks be launched from outside its borders.

If Mexico allowed its citizens to launch paramilitary attacks against us I would supported an aggressive response and I would in the case of ISrael against Palestine.
*


Well Eeyore - sounds good but in fact it has been happening for 57 years now and nobody but Israel has ever been held accountable. It hasn't happened yet and it won't. When five nations invaded Israel in 1948 the UN did nothing, and to date has never condemned a single terrorist attack against Israel, do you really think that anything is going to change? Today a rocket fired from Jordan hit near the Eilat airport, what will happen? I can answer that - nothing at all. In the past year there have been dozens of attacks from Lebanon - who is held responsible, take a guess?

As for your "One group is dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel. They are in the minority but their actions at times seem to speak for all of the Palestinian people. The other group wishes for peace and stability to move on with their lives. I think Abbas has shown enough to be able to be a political voice for the latter faction." That 'minority' is over 90%. Nearly 70% support suicide bombings if Israel withdraws to the '67 borders, that is some minority. Abbas is one of them, he has publicly proclaimed that his goal is all of Israel why don't you believe them when they say this? Arafat said that he would continue terrorism no matter what and the world didn't believe him. Abbas has the largest police force to population in the world period. He could remove Hamas in one night and has no intention of doing so. He has proclaimed the opposite at every opportunity and says that he will do nothing to rein them in.

The PLO was organized in 1964 in Kuwait to 'liberate Palestine'. Only three years before any of the so-called 'occupied territories' existed. Their charter formally renounced all claim to Gaza and the West Bank. Which were occupied by Egypt and Jordan. So where the heck was this 'Palestine' they were to liberate?

The only thing that Sharon has done is give the terrorist more land to attack Israel from, shown that Israel can be force to cede land, and terrorism works.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Erasmussimo
post Aug 19 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #22


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Validating
Posts: 886
Member No.: 4,853
Joined: April-12-05

Gender: Undisclosed
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



QUOTE(Aquilla @ Aug 18 2005, 09:50 PM)
If the violence against Israel continues from Gaza, then Israel will be legally and morally justified to solve the Gaza problem once and for all with military force.

What would this "once and for all" solution consist of? Occupying Gaza? That has been the solution for the last 38 years, and one would think that, after 38 years of failure, people might have figured out that occupying Gaza isn't working.

The logic here is brutally simple: you can't keep millions of people under military occupation indefinitely. Eventually they get sick and tired of it and they revolt. At that point, you have three choices: genocide, interminable low-level conflict, and pulling out. The Israelis have decided against the first option and gotten tired of the second option. That leaves only one option.

loreng59, I am very much suprised by some of your claims. Could you provide some sort of documentation to support these assertions:

"Nearly 70% support suicide bombings if Israel withdraws to the '67 borders"

"Abbas is one of them, he has publicly proclaimed that his goal is all of Israel"

" Abbas... could remove Hamas in one night and has no intention of doing so. He has proclaimed the opposite at every opportunity and says that he will do nothing to rein them in."

This post has been edited by Erasmussimo: Aug 19 2005, 12:47 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bucket
post Aug 19 2005, 01:35 PM
Post #23


********
Millennium Mark

Group: Members
Posts: 1,259
Member No.: 1,459
Joined: October-14-03

Gender: Female
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: None



QUOTE(Sleeper)
I am just wondering if those who have supported the Palestinian Authority in the past, will continue to do so if they continue to incite violence again the Jewish people in Israel.


Well I support the Palestinian Authority only...and this is a big only mind you...because I wish to support any means or attempt by the Palestinians to address this situation through political actions. I feel the more we invite, insist and yes support Palestinian political mechanisms for dealing with this conflict the better it will be dealt with. And yes I am more than aware of the very fine line between the PA and Hamas and/or the condoning of violence. Yet I do feel we must keep insisting on the importance of the political process.

It is hard to keep the position I have..I must admit.. especially upon hearing the the PA has granted Hamas control and participation of Gaza and in return Hamas has refused any of the PA demands.

This post has been edited by bucket: Aug 19 2005, 01:35 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
loreng59
post Aug 19 2005, 03:30 PM
Post #24


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Members
Posts: 835
Member No.: 2,830
Joined: March-31-04

From: Monterey, California
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Republican



QUOTE(Erasmussimo @ Aug 19 2005, 08:42 AM)
loreng59, I am very much suprised by some of your claims. Could you provide some sort of documentation to support these assertions:

"Nearly 70% support suicide bombings if Israel withdraws to the '67 borders"

"Abbas is one of them, he has publicly proclaimed that his goal is all of Israel"

" Abbas... could remove Hamas in one night and has no intention of doing so. He has proclaimed the opposite at every opportunity and says that he will do nothing to rein them in."
*


I have gone out and found some of the information and must say I am surprised at the drop in support currently being reported

From the the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, the Public Opinion Research of
Israel and Palestinian Media Watch found that 80 percent of Palestinian Arabs say that even if Israel surrenders all of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem, the Palestinian Arabs should still insist on the “right of return” — which would mean flooding Israel with millions of Arab “refugees” and thereby putting an end to Israel as a Jewish state. It also found that 59 percent of Palestinian Arabs believe that Hamas and Islamic Jihad should continue their violence against Israel, even if Israel surrenders all of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem.

Public Opinion Poll Unit Jerusalem Media & Communication Center - JMCC Sunday, May 15, 2005
56.5% Gazans support suicide bombings against Israel civilians,
58.5% oppose using force against cease-fire opponents

So yes it is down to 56.5% support. Still hardly a minority.

From the Palestinian Authority 26 July 2005 official newspaper over the last suicide bombing.

"The two shahids are Tariq Salim Yassin (22) ... of Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades and the Shahid Yekhya Al-Ris Khamad Abu Taha (21), from Rafah.

"Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, which belongs to the Fatah movement, the Al-Quds Companies, the military branch of the Islamic Jihad movement, and Al-Nasir Salah Al-Din Regiments, the military branch of the Popular Resistance Committees, [all] claimed joint responsibility for the attack...

"An Islamic Jihad movement senior [official], Khalid Al-Batash, emphasized that the operation in Kisufim ... came in retaliation to the assassination crimes that were committed by the Occupation...

Abbas is the head of Fatah.

Last but not least

From 4 Feb 2005 Palestine Television:

"We tell you Palestine, we shall return to you, by Allah's will, We shall return to every village, every town, and every grain of earth which was quenched by the blood of our grandparents and the sweat of our fathers and mothers. We shall return, we shall return. Our willingness to return to the 1967 borders does not mean that we have given up on the land of Palestine. No! We ask you: Do we have the right to the 1967 borders? We have the right. Therefore, we shall realize this right with any mean it takes. We might be able to use diplomacy in order to return to the 1967 borders, but we shall not be able to use diplomacy in order to return to the 1948 borders. No one on this earth recognizes [out right to] the 1948 borders [before Israel's existence]. Therefore, we shall return to the 1967 borders, but it does not mean that we have given up on Jerusalem and Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramle, Natanyah [Al-Zuhour] and Tel Aviv [Tel Al-Rabia]. Never. We shall return to every village we had been expelled from, by Allah's will.

I will let 'peaceful Palestinians' speak for themselves.

As for Abbas police force, it numbers over 60,000 and is the largest per capita police force in the world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Erasmussimo
post Aug 19 2005, 05:26 PM
Post #25


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Validating
Posts: 886
Member No.: 4,853
Joined: April-12-05

Gender: Undisclosed
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



QUOTE(loreng59 @ Aug 19 2005, 08:30 AM)
From the the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, the Public Opinion Research of Israel and Palestinian Media Watch found that 80 percent of Palestinian Arabs say that even if Israel surrenders all of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem, the Palestinian Arabs should still insist on the “right of return” — which would mean flooding Israel with millions of Arab “refugees” and thereby putting an end to Israel as a Jewish state. It also found that 59 percent of Palestinian Arabs believe that Hamas and Islamic Jihad should continue their violence against Israel, even if Israel surrenders all of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and eastern Jerusalem.

Public Opinion Poll Unit Jerusalem Media & Communication Center - JMCC Sunday, May 15, 2005
56.5% Gazans support suicide bombings against Israel civilians,
58.5% oppose using force against cease-fire opponents

I won't disagree that there remains strong support for continuing violence among the Palestinians. However, the numbers are confusing and I think we need to consider a wide range of results. For example, this recent poll from the same source you cite shows 76.5% "Support at different degrees the continuation of the calm with the Israelis." "(37.2%) Would vote for Fateh, (25.0%) for Hamas in the coming PLC elections". Here's a bit more data from this poll, which was released on June 20, 2005:

QUOTE(poll results)
Q.1)  The PA president, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, called upon the Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” to abandon violence and to hold a dialogue with Fateh saying that the atmosphere is appropriate now for conducting such a political dialogue, which is considered to be indispensable.  Do you agree with that, or not?

1. Strongly agree
20.7%
2. Somewhat agree
54.6%
3. Somewhat disagree
13.8%
4. Strongly disagree
7.1%
5. Don’t know / refuse.
3.8%


Q. 2) The PA president, Mr. Abu Mazin, said that “the era of explosions (suicide attacks) is over and that this deadly style didn’t achieve neither the support of the Palestinian Authority nor that of the Palestinian people”.  Do you agree with this statement, or not?

1. Strongly agree
13.4%
2. Somewhat agree
40.0%
3. Somewhat disagree
28.0%
4. Strongly disagree
14.4%
5. Don’t know / refuse.
4.2%



I am not attempting to refute your claims, but instead to show that Palestinian opinion is muddled and that the Palestinians are not so bloody-minded as some of our extremists would paint them.

You provide a quote from a Fatah newspaper that reports on a pair of suicide bombers, and then you assert that Abbas is the head of Fatah. I gather that you read the newspaper report as laudatory of the suicide bombers; I do not.

The long quote you present from Palestine Television is, I assume, a direct quote from Mr. Abbas; is this correct? Clearly, there are some difficulties with the translation; the English is muddy. The speaker asserts the right of return vehemently -- which the PA has been upfront about with everybody. He says that he shall "realize this right (to return to the 1967 borders) with any mean it takes." This does not quite translate into a statement that violence is part of his policy, especially when you read all of his references to diplomacy. I think that it is reading too much into a murky translation to insist on this as proof of violent intent, especially when Mr. Abbas has issued so many unequivocal statements callling for an end to violence and supporting a peaceful solution.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
loreng59
post Aug 19 2005, 06:20 PM
Post #26


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Members
Posts: 835
Member No.: 2,830
Joined: March-31-04

From: Monterey, California
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Republican



I will agree that the numbers are changing, but you will have to understand what they are actually saying. First off all Israelis are considered in the military regardless of age, sex, or anything less, so they are 'fair game'. Second what they consider to be non-violent is not the same as you do. Under their understanding of a 'cease-fire' means you can not shoot back, and anything less than a rocket is 'non-violent'.

What Abbas is saying in English and what he is saying in Arabic are two very different things. He has totally abandoned any pretense in Arabic. There are no calls at all for non-violence, the opposite it the case. He calls for the violence to be 'effective' but not end. In English he has repeatedly stated that he will do nothing to stop the terror and wants to incorporate the terrorists into his police force, though most already belong. He has stated that he will not fulfill any of the obligations that they have agreed to ever and now is demanding the release of all terrorists so that they can join his police force and continue their attacks. That is what he says in English, and it doesn't get any better in Arabic.

No Sharon has given away the store and for what? What has Israel gotten in return? Europe is already stating that is a nice beginning, now give them the rest, and the Shrub from Texas is demanding Israel arm those terrorist with better weapons and wants to divide the State of Israel in two so the terrorist can attack without having to go through any checkpoints.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lederuvdapac
post Aug 19 2005, 06:22 PM
Post #27


*********
Mr. Free Market

Sponsor
August 2006

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 2,940
Member No.: 2,573
Joined: March-4-04

From: A New Yorker in DC
Gender: Male
Politics: Independent
Party affiliation: None



Erasmussimo, the major problem is not the Palestinian people or the Palestinian government really. It is the extremist groups like Hamas who listen to no rule of law and who have no ability to use democratic and diplomatic methods to voice their views. The Palestinian government CANNOT control these terror groups. So, they will do whatever they wish.

Hamas Leader: "The Beginning of the End for Israel"

QUOTE
Speaking to al-Hayat newspaper, Mashaal was quoted as saying on Tuesday that the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as “the beginning of the end for the Zionist program in the region.”
 
The Hamas leader reiterated the movement’s commitment to the calm with Israel until the end of the current year, but added the “resistance is a strategic choice, because the withdrawal from Gaza is the first step in the way to complete liberation.”
 
The Damascus-based official stressed that “Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wants the Gaza exit to be the first and last, and the payment for the continued control in the West Bank, settlement construction, wall construction, and the annulment of any possibility of establishing a Palestinian state within the framework of the Zionist project to end the Palestinian issue with the unlimited US support,” adding “We, however, see the withdrawal as first step for full liberation and achieving all of our legitimate rights. Today Gaza and tomorrow the West Bank and later every inch of the land.”


The terrorists are emboldened. This act of appeasement makes them believe that it is their brutal tactics and NOT a strive for peace that brought forth thi s favorable action. Groups like Hamas will not be satisfied until Israel is in ruins and every Jew in the region is killed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Erasmussimo
post Aug 19 2005, 07:10 PM
Post #28


*******
Five Hundred Club

Group: Validating
Posts: 886
Member No.: 4,853
Joined: April-12-05

Gender: Undisclosed
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



QUOTE(loreng59 @ Aug 19 2005, 11:20 AM)
Under their understanding of a 'cease-fire' means you can not shoot back, and anything less  than a rocket is 'non-violent'.

I think you've gone into the realm of the imaginary here. If you've got solid documentation to prove your point, I'll accept it, but don't give me one or two quotes from a couple of hotheads who don't represent the Palestinian people. What I would like to see is a direct poll on the question "what does 'ceasefire' mean?" Of course, such a poll doesn't exist -- so you have no basis for making claims about what the Palestinian people believe. Yes, there are lots of hotheads among the Palestinians who have very violent intentions. But you need to show that these hotheads constitute a majority -- which you haven't.

QUOTE(loreng59 @ Aug 19 2005, 11:20 AM)
What Abbas is saying in English and what he is saying in Arabic are two very different things. He has totally abandoned any pretense in Arabic. There are no calls at all for non-violence, the opposite it the case. He calls for the violence to be 'effective' but not end. In English he has repeatedly stated that he will do nothing to stop the terror and wants to incorporate the terrorists into his police force, though most already belong. He has stated that he will not fulfill any of the obligations that they have agreed to ever and now is demanding the release of all terrorists so that they can join his police force and continue their attacks. That is what he says in English, and it doesn't get any better in Arabic.

This is directly contradicted by the poll I presented earlier. The relevant quote is:
QUOTE(poll)
The PA president, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, called upon the Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” to abandon violence and to hold a dialogue with Fateh saying that the atmosphere is appropriate now for conducting such a political dialogue, which is considered to be indispensable.  Do you agree with that, or not?

Now here is a Palestinian pollster asking Palestinian people a question, the pretext of which is that Mr. Abbas has called upon Hamas to abandon violence. This totally contradicts everything you are saying, and you have not offered a shred of evidence to back up these wild claims.

QUOTE(loreng59 @ Aug 19 2005, 11:20 AM)
No Sharon has given away the store and for what? What has Israel gotten in return? Europe is already stating that is a nice beginning, now give them the rest

If by "the rest" you mean the West Bank, I think that would be a good idea. Given your previous statements, I fear that you are imputing that the Europeans want to destroy Israel. Please tell me that my fears are unjustified.

QUOTE(loreng59 @ Aug 19 2005, 11:20 AM)
and the Shrub from Texas is demanding Israel arm those terrorist with better weapons and wants to divide the State of Israel in two so the terrorist can attack without having to go through any checkpoints.

Wow! I didn't realize that Mr. Bush had changed his position so dramatically. Could you please provide me with a quote from Mr. Bush saying, in effect, "I demand that Israel arm the terrorists with better weapons!" and "I demand that Israel be divided in two so that terrorists can attack without going through any checkpoints!"

QUOTE(lederuvdapac)
Erasmussimo, the major problem is not the Palestinian people or the Palestinian government really. It is the extremist groups like Hamas who listen to no rule of law and who have no ability to use democratic and diplomatic methods to voice their views. The Palestinian government CANNOT control these terror groups.

I agree entirely. There are really three sovereign parties here: Israel, the PA, and the extremists. The solution is for the PA and Israel to gang up on the extremists -- but Mr. Abbas doesn't yet have the political clout to pull that off. The Gaza departure will give him a stronger hand. Let us pray that it is sufficient.

QUOTE(lederuvdapac)
The terrorists are emboldened. This act of appeasement makes them believe that it is their brutal tactics and NOT a strive for peace that brought forth thi s favorable action.

Of course the terrorists are going to take credit for the pullout. Do you think they would publicly declare, "Aw, shucks, we never wanted the Israelis to end the occupation! It's all the fault of that dirty rat Abbas and his disgustingly successful diplomacy!"

No, they're going to claim all the credit they can, but the real question is whether anybody believes them. And that, in turn, hinges on the belief that Israel will go right back into Gaza if things go badly. In other words, if Palestinians believe that Hamas chased the Israelis out with violence, then they'll quite logically conclude that Israel can be beaten with violence, and we'll see less political support for Mr. Abbas, a jump in recruitment of extremist organizations, and a lot more attacks and killing. If, on the other hand, Palestinians believe that this was accomplished by means of diplomacy, then they will reject the claims of the extremists, increase their support of Mr. Abbas, and we will see a decline in violence.

So why don't we just let the pot simmer for a few months and see what happens? That will reveal the truth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
psyclist
post Aug 19 2005, 08:06 PM
Post #29


******
Senior Contributor

Sponsor
September 2005

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 352
Member No.: 4,200
Joined: January-5-05

From: Dayton, Ohio
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



QUOTE(lederuvdapac @ Aug 19 2005, 02:22 PM)
Erasmussimo, the major problem is not the Palestinian people or the Palestinian government really. It is the extremist groups like Hamas who listen to no rule of law and who have no ability to use democratic and diplomatic methods to voice their views. The Palestinian government CANNOT control these terror groups. So, they will do whatever they wish.

The terrorists are emboldened. This act of appeasement makes them believe that it is their brutal tactics and NOT a strive for peace that brought forth thi s favorable action. Groups like Hamas will not be satisfied until Israel is in ruins and every Jew in the region is killed.
*



This may have been true pre-Abbas but things have changed a lot. First off your assertion that their is no democracy in Palestine is pretty much flat out wrong. Second, the PA is and has been trying to keep the extreme groups under control and are in a PR battle with Hamas over who is responsible for the withdrawal from Gaza.

QUOTE
Determined to win the airwaves, Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas on Saturday inaugurated a special Gaza-withdrawal media center, complete with live-feed points for TV crews, a 24-hour text messaging service for news updates, maps, and free hats and T-shirts.

"The center will facilitate the media in all they need. ... A group of Cabinet ministers and officials will be ready at all times to answer your questions," Abbas assured journalists.
cite


I think the people of Palestine know that Abbas, the PA, and diplomacy are responsible. Obviously their was no progress when Arafat was in power who openly called for violence so logically it's not Hamas' use of violence. Egypt and the PA are working together to try and make this as peaceful of a withdrawal as possible. Is the PA as effective as the IDF, CIA, or LA Swat team in combating terror? No, but they're moving in the right direction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

  
Go to the top of the page - Simple Version Time is now: January 29th, 2022 - 01:15 AM
©2002-2010 America's Debate, Inc.  All rights reserved.