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> First Presidential Debate, What impact will it have?
Who do you think won the First Debate?
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Amlord
post Oct 4 2012, 03:17 PM
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Last night was the first of three Presidential Debates.

Mitt Romney vastly outperformed expectations while President Obama was criticized even by his most stalwart water carriers.

The consensus I got from watching the cable shows is that the pundits didn't think Obama had ever been challenged in the way that Romney did in questioning his record of achievement. This is usually why the challenger wins the first Presidential debate, so the conventional wisdom goes.

What moments from the debate were most memorable?

Will Romney see a bump?

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?

This post has been edited by Amlord: Oct 4 2012, 09:03 PM
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 4 2012, 03:37 PM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?

I didn't watch the debates [I had something....anything more important to do], but I did catch the analysis on POTUS during my commute this morning. I didn't notice any defining moments, though I'm sure partisans of both stripes will be along shortly to remedy that. I was sort of impressed to see that there was indeed, somebody with a pulse lurking under Romney's suit.

Will Romney see a bump?

Of course; this is how political theater works.

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?

Obama will likely be more aggresive during the next debate. Last night, he came off as tired and not terribly interested in making his points. Though with the economy in the shape it's in, I might have been surprised to see a stalwart effort at defense. Since he has essentially continued the foreign policies of his predecessor, it should be an easier sell. I would expect him to come on stronger and more spirited, especially after his handlers process the public and pundit reaction to last nights dismal performance.

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Ted
post Oct 4 2012, 03:51 PM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?
Romney refused to allow Obama the lies and distortions to stand. When Obama said people now 54 under the Romney plan for Medicare world be forced to vouchers and at the mercy of evil profit making insurance companies – Romney countered they they could stay on Medicare if they liked – and then Obama tried to say that Medicare that is according to him cheaper and better could somehow ‘dissolve”……?? Illogical at best
In general Romney was focused and responsive and Obama was not. It seemed at times Obama was angry that he had to respond too Romney at all.

Will Romney see a bump?
Yes

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?
He needs to be better prepared. His biggest problem though is that he is faced with the defending positions like “taxing the rich will go a long way to solving our problems”, a position that has no real mathematical reality and that he was against 2 years ago. And Romney pointed this out although I was disappointed Romney did not nail him on the specifics when he had the nerve to say Romney had trouble with the “mathematics”…
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Amlord
post Oct 4 2012, 03:59 PM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?

From the debate itself: Romney was speaking about the President's investments into alternative energy:

QUOTE(Romney)
You put $90 billion, like 50 years' worth of breaks, into — into solar and wind, to Solyndra and Fisker and Tesla and Ener1. I mean, I had a friend who said you don't just pick the winners and losers, you pick the losers...


From the commentary afterwards:

The first comment on MSNBC (from Rachel Maddow) was that the winner of the debate could be decided by "time of possession" because she had the impression that Romney dominated the speaking time.

Too bad for her instincts that the President actually had more time (42 minutes to 38 minutes). Romney simply used his time better and was more substantive, giving the impression that he dominated the speaking time.

On CNN, James Carville was disheartened saying finally that it didn't seem like the President wanted to be there. Quite entertaining.
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Ataal
post Oct 4 2012, 04:24 PM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?

There were a lot of great lines, but what stood out to me the most is the way Romney laid out his points. To me, it was the difference between writing a 1000 word essay all in one paragraph and creating multiple paragraphs with focus on each point.

Will Romney see a bump?

If he doesn't, I would be surprised. I'm not expecting a 10 point jump, but it should be significant.

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?

Obama was not "in the zone" last night. He was on the defensive, backed into the corner, and it seemed like he couldn't remember things, so he would trail off in a different direction. I don't think we'll see the same Obama in the next two. He will be better prepared. If you're an Obama supporter, you're hoping his team will be telling him to stay on point and not try to use examples that prove the other guy's point(Cleveland Hospital, which was eerily similar to him comparing the Post Office to FedEx and UPS a while ago). The "ums" "uhs" "let me be clear" "let me make this point" have got to go. They're fillers. They do not add to constructive debate and I believe his fillers are the reason he needed four more minutes than Romney to make his points.
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net2007
post Oct 4 2012, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE
Last night was the first of three Presidential Debates.

Mitt Romney vastly outperformed expectations while President Obama was criticized even by his most stalwart water carriers.

The consensus I got from watching the cable shows is that the pundits didn't think Obama had ever been challenged in the way that Romney did in questioning his record of achievement. This is usually why the challenger wins the first Presidential debate, so the conventional wisdom goes.

What moments from the debate were most memorable?

Will Romney see a bump?

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?


Mitt Romney absolutely nailed this debate and I don't say that lightly. He was more pointed than I thought he would be and I was worried he might pull a John McCain, but I was very impressed. He kept coming back on Obama again and again. If he can maintain that kind of pressure he'll get the boost he needs to tighten this race but It'll still be very hard to win the election though. Possible but not easy.

Obama for the most part repeated punchlines more than once in the debate, and stuck to the same kind of talking everyone has heard already. We heard the reference to what George Bush did to the economy again for example. Also the biggest thing he's been helped by recently is that 47% gaff that Romney made. The momentum from that wont have the effect it's having now all the way till November.

Obama has this ability to sound very charismatic at times in a predictable public speech environment. However he seems to fumble and act emotionless when he doesn't have the teleprompter and has to interact on the fly. I've noticed this with him before so Im not really all that surprised about his lack of performance in this debate. I am a little surprised Mitt Romney capitalized on this though. He needs to keep doing that if he has any chance of winning.

Amlord, you should make a poll on this!

This post has been edited by net2007: Oct 4 2012, 05:16 PM
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Hobbes
post Oct 4 2012, 05:20 PM
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I second DTOM's comments. Be interesting to see how the Romney campaign carries this forward, what happens in the second debate, and how much this actually affects the polls. As several analysts pointed out, most people thought Kerry won all three debates, yet that didn't change the numbers much. The only people's opinions that really matter is those few who were actually undecided. Interestingly, on the CNN focus group of just such people, although the majority thought Romney won the debate, when asked who they would now vote for, that was split 8-8. That's how politics work here...the vast majority of people support who they support, and don't let much of anything get in the way of that.
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droop224
post Oct 4 2012, 06:47 PM
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I wonder....

is Mitt's success mostly due to low expectations? I'll explain more in a little

I didn't have low expectations for Mitt. Prior to the debate I watched how Mitt did for governor and i had watched him debate before. What makes Mitt a great debater. He will say anything. He will not just say it, he will do it with confidence. The Mitt you get on debate night is the Mitt you get on debate night. You can't prepare for him. He'll simply deny he said something or said he has a different position. And i think all politicians do this to a degree, but I've never seen one as good as Mitt.

Back to the low expectation. I'm overseas, so I'm hours ahead. I couldn't see it when it happened, but by reading article from MSM it sounded like Obama received a severe thumping. Then I saw it... same stuttering Obama... taking prolonged moments and slow momentum to deliver a zinger. Mitt was much quicker on delivery. But it reminded me how Obama was against Hilary.

Obama seemed more demanding in this debate than i seen him before ignoring the moderators request for him to finish. Mitt seemed just as demanding in getting the last word. but overall... no thumping. seemed more like tit for tat. I didn't see an on the ropes Obama, I just saw to guys throwing blows. To continue the analogy, if Mitt won the debate, which polls say he did, I would say it is comparable to a fighter winning a fight just because he was more aggressive, not cause he had more accurate or powerful punches.

But let's be honest... I LIKE Obama. I want him to win. Though I try to stop my biases... can I?? Well there was another guy who came up to me, and he one of those kind of right wingers, but due to age not policy. He didn't get the feeling that Obama was beaten in the debate either.

But our expectations were shaped. We both thought we were going to see Obama get whooped, but instead we saw Obama laughing at Mitt. Telling Mitt it's basic math and arithmetic. We saw Mitt come back with his lines.



At the end of the day debates are about perception. And the facts are the facts, most Americans so Obama losing the debate… so Obama lost the debate. Period.

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akaCG
post Oct 4 2012, 06:54 PM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?

"Look, I've been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you're talking about. I maybe need to get a new accountant. But the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case."

Will Romney see a bump?

Yes. About 1 or 2 points would be my guess.

How can Obama do things differently for the second debate?

The next debate has a town hall format, which should favor him. The topics will include foreign policy, however, which given recent and current events, could turn out to be quite troublesome for him. No amount of debate prep can put enough lipstick on, for instance, the "Al Qaeda is still alive and Ambassador Stevens is dead" situation in Libya and the administration's subsequent obfuscations, prevarications, etc. regarding it.

ps:
Among the pluses for the President: the next debate will take place in a town that's only 59 feet above sea level. smile.gif

=============================================

QUOTE(Hobbes @ Oct 4 2012, 01:20 PM) *
...
... The only people's opinions that really matter is those few who were actually undecided. Interestingly, on the CNN focus group of just such people, although the majority thought Romney won the debate, when asked who they would now vote for, that was split 8-8. That's how politics work here...the vast majority of people support who they support, and don't let much of anything get in the way of that.

Meanwhile, ...
QUOTE
...
Immediately after the debate, CBS News interviewed a nationally representative sample of debate watchers assembled by GfK’s Knowledge Panel who were “uncommitted voters” –voters who are either undecided about who to vote for or who say they could still change their minds.
...
Heading into this debate, the President had a clear advantage over his Republican rival on empathy among these uncommitted voters, but Romney has narrowed the gap. After the debate, 63% say Romney cares about their needs and problems (up from 30% before the debate). 69% say the President cares about their needs and problems, up from 53% before the debate.
...
Uncommitted voters include both undecided voters and those who say they have a candidate preference, but could still change their minds. Before the debate, 23% favored President Obama and 22% favored Romney, while 50% were still undecided. But while voter preference for Mr. Obama changed little, after the debate support for Romney increased 12 points.
...

Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575256...=2&tag=page

Even in California, ...:
QUOTE
...
Immediately following tonight’s presidential debate between Republican Mitt Romney and Democrat Barack Obama, SurveyUSA interviewed 1,000 California adults, of whom 869 watched the debate. California is a ‘Blue’ state and not surprisingly in California, significantly more Democrats watched the debate than Republicans. Given that, it is particularly striking to find:

* 48% say Romney was the clear winner.
* 34% say Obama was the clear winner.
...
* Only those age 18 to 34 see the debate as a draw. ...
...
* Only African Americans see Obama as a narrow winner. ...
...
* Independents, the most critical, coveted and arguably most dispassionate group of debate watchers, say by 34 points that Romney is the clear winner.
* Moderates, who typically vote 2:1 in favor of Obama, see Romney as the winner by 15 points.
...

Link: http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2012/10...dential-debate/

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Ataal
post Oct 4 2012, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 4 2012, 11:54 AM) *
What moments from the debate were most memorable?

"Look, I've been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you're talking about. I maybe need to get a new accountant. But the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case."


I'm no accountant, but this one struck me as odd. It's probably more of a half-truth thing. I've done quite a bit of searching on accounting sites referring to that line and the general consensus is that there is a deductible for moving your business. However, there is nothing special about moving overseas. You get the deductible whether you're moving your business across the street or Panama. Maybe that's what he meant.

In either case, it was a good jab for Romney since most people won't bother to fact check it.
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akaCG
post Oct 4 2012, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(Ataal @ Oct 4 2012, 03:56 PM) *
QUOTE(akaCG @ Oct 4 2012, 11:54 AM) *
What moments from the debate were most memorable?

"Look, I've been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you're talking about. I maybe need to get a new accountant. But the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case."

...
... You get the deductible whether you're moving your business across the street or Panama. Maybe that's what he meant.
...

Exactly.

=======================================================

CNN also did a post-debate poll. Some of the results:

Question 101: Regardless of which candidate you happen to support, who do you think did the best job in the debate -- Barack Obama or Mitt Romney?

Overall:

Obama: 25% (worst since CNN started asking this question in '84; the previous worst was held by Dole, with 29% in '96)
Romney: 67% (best since CNN started asking this question in '84; the previous best was held by Clinton, with 59% in '96)

Women:

Obama: 30%
Romney: 59%

Independents:

Obama: 17%
Romney: 75%

Moderates:

Obama: 34%
Romney: 55%


Question 108: Overall, did tonight's debate make you more likely to vote for Barack Obama or more likely to vote for Mitt Romney, or did tonight's debate not affect how you are likely to vote?

Overall:

Obama: 18%
Romney: 35%
No chg:: 47%

Women:

Obama: 23%
Romney: 33%
No chg: 44%

Independents:

Obama: 8%
Romney: 38%
No chg: 53%

Moderates:

Obama: 29%
Romney: 24%
No chg: 47%

Link: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/10/03/top12.pdf

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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 4 2012, 08:55 PM
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Romney prepared for this debate for over 2 months (or so it is being reported), and his efforts bore fruit. Obama did come across as tired and not really into what he was doing. I'm sure the Republican is getting a bump for his performance.

However, Romney did not seem to be the same candidate making the same points as in his stump speeches. If anything, he came across as more moderate. I wonder what the Tea Partiers will be thinking about that. An Etch-A-Sketch moment? (Example: He is going to get rid of Obamacare but keep some things about it...)

Now that the President knows which Mitt Romney to prepare for, I anticipate a much stronger performance on Obama's part at the next debate. How? by being who he is, and getting back into practice.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Oct 4 2012, 08:59 PM
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trumpetplayer
post Oct 4 2012, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 03:55 PM) *
Romney prepared for this debate for over 2 months (or so it is being reported), and his efforts bore fruit. Obama did come across as tired and not really into what he was doing. I'm sure the Republican is getting a bump for his performance.

However, Romney did not seem to be the same candidate making the same points as in his stump speeches. If anything, he came across as more moderate. I wonder what the Tea Partiers will be thinking about that. An Etch-A-Sketch moment? (Example: He is going to get rid of Obamacare but keep some things about it...)

Now that the President knows which Mitt Romney to prepare for, I anticipate a much stronger performance on Obama's part at the next debate. How? by being who he is, and getting back into practice.


Obama better bone up on the subjects at hand because Romney knows what he is talking about. Obama came off as an amateur at best last night. Making excuses isn't going to wash away 4 years of terrible leading.
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lo rez
post Oct 4 2012, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 03:55 PM) *
Now that the President knows which Mitt Romney to prepare for, I anticipate a much stronger performance on Obama's part at the next debate. How? by being who he is, and getting back into practice.


Does he know which Romney is going to show up to the next one? I'm not sure he does. It's like trying to debate an army of Deep Space Nine's Weyoun clones. You never know which one you're going to get.
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Ted
post Oct 5 2012, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE(lo rez @ Oct 4 2012, 05:28 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 03:55 PM) *
Now that the President knows which Mitt Romney to prepare for, I anticipate a much stronger performance on Obama's part at the next debate. How? by being who he is, and getting back into practice.


Does he know which Romney is going to show up to the next one? I'm not sure he does. It's like trying to debate an army of Deep Space Nine's Weyoun clones. You never know which one you're going to get.

Right. and Obama will bring the same lies and distortions - wont work.

No budget for 3 years, except the Obama disaster that got literally Zero votes in the Senate. No solution for Medicare or the trillion $ yearly deficits and a ONE line solution - TAX the rich and we are all fine - problem is the math does not work and this guy had the balls to say Romney doesn't get the "mathematics" - LOL wacko.gif



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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 5 2012, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE(Ted @ Oct 4 2012, 09:24 PM) *
QUOTE(lo rez @ Oct 4 2012, 05:28 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 03:55 PM) *
Now that the President knows which Mitt Romney to prepare for, I anticipate a much stronger performance on Obama's part at the next debate. How? by being who he is, and getting back into practice.


Does he know which Romney is going to show up to the next one? I'm not sure he does. It's like trying to debate an army of Deep Space Nine's Weyoun clones. You never know which one you're going to get.

Right. and Obama will bring the same lies and distortions - wont work.

No budget for 3 years, except the Obama disaster that got literally Zero votes in the Senate. No solution for Medicare or the trillion $ yearly deficits and a ONE line solution - TAX the rich and we are all fine - problem is the math does not work and this guy had the balls to say Romney doesn't get the "mathematics" - LOL wacko.gif

Meh. Just think how it would have been if Mitch McConnell and John Boehner wouldn't have decided to obstruct him at every turn...Oh, that's right: You don't care.

I apologize for reminding you of something that you disregard time and time again.

Carry on with your propaganda. I'll not even read it.
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Bikerdad
post Oct 5 2012, 03:10 AM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 02:55 PM) *
Romney prepared for this debate for over 2 months (or so it is being reported), and his efforts bore fruit.

How has Romney's preparation been any different than Obama's? What has Obama been doing the last two months?

When I heard Gore's hypothesis on why Obama did poorly, my response was twofold. One, how can anybody take a guy who would so convincingly beclown himself seriously? And two, so what if it was altitude related. Obama chose to do his debate prep in Las Vegas. He could have chosen anywhere in the country. So excuses about altitude and travel time are just that, excuses. If he's not smart enough to manage the herculean task of prepping for a debate, maybe he's not really that smart after all?

Rather than altitude, Obama's real problem is attitude. Party in Las Vegas, then off to Denver to quickly knock around the weak opposition. After all, that's how the press, which has so accurately identified the magnificence of Obama, has characterized Romney. Obama has made a crucial mistake. He believed his own press.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 5 2012, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Oct 4 2012, 11:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Oct 4 2012, 02:55 PM) *
Romney prepared for this debate for over 2 months (or so it is being reported), and his efforts bore fruit.

How has Romney's preparation been any different than Obama's? What has Obama been doing the last two months?

When I heard Gore's hypothesis on why Obama did poorly, my response was twofold. One, how can anybody take a guy who would so convincingly beclown himself seriously? And two, so what if it was altitude related. Obama chose to do his debate prep in Las Vegas. He could have chosen anywhere in the country. So excuses about altitude and travel time are just that, excuses. If he's not smart enough to manage the herculean task of prepping for a debate, maybe he's not really that smart after all?

Rather than altitude, Obama's real problem is attitude. Party in Las Vegas, then off to Denver to quickly knock around the weak opposition. After all, that's how the press, which has so accurately identified the magnificence of Obama, has characterized Romney. Obama has made a crucial mistake. He believed his own press.

In answer to your question, "What has Obama been doing the last two months?", let me hazard a guess: He was being President of the United States. That's all, just a job. And before you start on the "sin" of Obama campaigning rather than being holed up the the White House, let me see: I think every President before him, with the exception of Lyndon Baines Johnson, actively campaigned for re-election. But that's just a guess.

"Beclown"? I saw no clowning. The only thing that approached clowning was the joke about Big Bird and Jim Lehrer, and the President didn't say it.

I think Obama was honestly surprised about Romney's flip-flop and denial of saying he will provide more tax cuts for the wealthy (at the expense of taxes for the middle class) as he has been saying he would on the stump, for the "job creators." I don't know how his supporters keep his positions straight; the will to get Obama out of the White House seems to supercede any concerns about Romney picking one policy and sticking to it. He has become "all things to all people" evidently if it means he can win the Presidency.

But enough of that. I've already said that Romney appears to have a minor bump in his popularity as a result of his performance last night. By all means, enjoy your candidate's moment.
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 5 2012, 05:55 AM
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What moments from the debate were most memorable?

I watched it, and after sleeping on it without watching any pundits and their takes, Obama did what he had to do brilliantly.

His boredom and detachment unhinged Romney. That caused Romney to come off as overly enthusiastic in the face of serious national problems. For those not familiar with live debating, actually doing the performance, the inability to get a rise out of the opponent leaves a good amount of gut-wrenching anxiety about future performances. Think about a live performer doing the act and getting no applause. Obama hardly acknowledged Romney's presence. He decidedly felt no threat from the man.

This is of course assuming that Romney is smart enough to realize what was happening. I have my doubts. He has that CEO thing going on that's usually impenetrable but does lead to the truth eventually coming out.

So President Obama doesn't need to change a thing. What the strategy appears to be is to give his opponent enough rope to hang himself. Meanwhile, don't come off as an angry black guy or a bully pushing around a somewhat clueless senior citizen. Instead, make it appear as if the guy at the other podium is a bit insane and certainly not one to be reasoned with. Let him have his fantasies.

Meanwhile, the electorate will judge who can do a better job. It's still President Obama, and it always has been. It comes down to who needs to prove what to whom.

That's Romney's challenge.

Oh, another observation just came through the cooking subconscious sauce: This is like a job interview in which the guy to be replaced is in the room, the guy with real-life experience versus the enthusiastic but inexperienced candidate.

I'd be steaming. I wouldn't be able to keep my cool. I'd at least get snide and snippy, but knowing how short my temper can get under certain circumstances when confronted with fools, I'd likely grab the snot's rhetorical lapels, slam him against the wall of logic and slap him silly with reality.

President Obama cannot do this if he wants to be reelected. He has the unattractive job of suffering a mighty big fool. He can't even roll his eyes and laugh at his opponent, which President Clinton got away with.

Nope, from here on out, it has to be Cool Hand Luke, much to the dismay of those wanting spectacle.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 5 2012, 06:28 AM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Oct 5 2012, 01:55 AM) *
What moments from the debate were most memorable?

I watched it, and after sleeping on it without watching any pundits and their takes, Obama did what he had to do brilliantly.

His boredom and detachment unhinged Romney. That caused Romney to come off as overly enthusiastic in the face of serious national problems. For those not familiar with live debating, actually doing the performance, the inability to get a rise out of the opponent leaves a good amount of gut-wrenching anxiety about future performances. Think about a live performer doing the act and getting no applause. Obama hardly acknowledged Romney's presence. He decidedly felt no threat from the man.

This is of course assuming that Romney is smart enough to realize what was happening. I have my doubts. He has that CEO thing going on that's usually impenetrable but does lead to the truth eventually coming out.

So President Obama doesn't need to change a thing. What the strategy appears to be is to give his opponent enough rope to hang himself. Meanwhile, don't come off as an angry black guy or a bully pushing around a somewhat clueless senior citizen. Instead, make it appear as if the guy at the other podium is a bit insane and certainly not one to be reasoned with. Let him have his fantasies.

Meanwhile, the electorate will judge who can do a better job. It's still President Obama, and it always has been. It comes down to who needs to prove what to whom.

That's Romney's challenge.

Oh, another observation just came through the cooking subconscious sauce: This is like a job interview in which the guy to be replaced is in the room, the guy with real-life experience versus the enthusiastic but inexperienced candidate.

I'd be steaming. I wouldn't be able to keep my cool. I'd at least get snide and snippy, but knowing how short my temper can get under certain circumstances when confronted with fools, I'd likely grab the snot's rhetorical lapels, slam him against the wall of logic and slap him silly with reality.

President Obama cannot do this if he wants to be reelected. He has the unattractive job of suffering a mighty big fool. He can't even roll his eyes and laugh at his opponent, which President Clinton got away with.

Nope, from here on out, it has to be Cool Hand Luke, much to the dismay of those wanting spectacle.

And of course there has been fact-checking of Romney's statements after the debate, a subject that might merit a thread all by itself, especially since members of Romney's team were "setting straight" some of the things that he said that were news to them and confused his supporters. But I'm not going to start it. And now Romney says he is going to make sure that people with pre-existing health conditions don't get turned down for health insurance?! Uh-huh.

There is one very good thing for Democrats that came out of this. I am certain that it has shaken some out of their sense of complacency. Perhaps they have stopped regarding this election as a done deal and will get busy making sure the President gets re-elected.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Oct 5 2012, 06:34 AM
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