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> VP Debate, So, what do you think?
AuthorMusician
post Oct 12 2012, 02:35 AM
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Yep, it's really simple:

What do you think about the VP debate, 2012?
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 12 2012, 02:58 AM
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What do you think about the VP Debate, 2012?

I wish the first Presidential debate had been as fiery and engaging as this one. I also think Biden won it, and perhaps someone will quote me in "News That Isn't A Shock To You." thumbsup.gif mrsparkle.gif
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vsrenard
post Oct 12 2012, 03:43 AM
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It was entertaining, mostly in the ad.gif chatroom. Definitely more energetic than the first presidential debate. Pretty sure it didn't change a thing though.
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Amlord
post Oct 12 2012, 03:53 AM
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What do you think about the VP debate, 2012?

A draw, Each candidate got their jabs in.

I thought Joe Biden was rude on several occasions and was oddly smirking and laughing at times. Just Joe being Joe I suppose.

CNN had Ryan as a close winner on almost every category including "Who is ready to be President" "Most Likeable" and "Attacked Their Opponent Less"
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 12 2012, 10:24 AM
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What do you think about the VP debate, 2012?

I give the edge to Biden, though the margin was much closer than the first Romney-Obama debate.

This post has been edited by Dontreadonme: Oct 12 2012, 11:03 AM
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entspeak
post Oct 12 2012, 10:55 AM
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What do you think about the VP debate, 2012?

This was definitely an engaging debate. Biden was infinitely more confident and prepared to tackle the debate than Obama was in dealing with Ryan. There were times where he seemed to just school Ryan. He did a very good job of calling Ryan out and holding his feet to the fire regarding Romney's tax plan and Medicare. When he was in a corner, Ryan relied heavily on making it seem like Biden was engaging in a tactic. Rather than ask the question of what he would do, he looked to hindsight and said what he wouldn't have done to start with - ignoring where we are currently with regard to Syria, for example. There were a lot of holes where he simply did not provide specifics. And the argument about troops coming home in Afghanistan went to Biden handily... Ryan seemed to be stuck and not hearing what was being said.

Biden did a good job saying, basically, that Romney and Ryan aren't providing specifics on certain issues, so look at the specifics of their past on those issues. They don't want to tell you specifically what they will do, so look at what they've specifically done in the past compared to what they're saying now.

Ryan put on a good face and made a couple of points. Obama and Biden can't escape the, perhaps overconfident, broken promises regarding the recovery. They really have their work cut out for them when it comes to defending the last four years with regard to that.

In terms of delivery, I felt that in terms of sounding like one is simply spouting talking points, Biden did a better job avoiding that.

I do wish Biden would've called out Ryan on his failure to recognize the authority of that third branch of government, the judicial system. The courts exist for a reason and in that one statement, it sounds as if Romney and Ryan don't believe it's necessary to have a third branch.

This post has been edited by entspeak: Oct 12 2012, 11:08 AM
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AuthorMusician
post Oct 12 2012, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(entspeak @ Oct 12 2012, 06:55 AM) *
In terms of delivery, I felt that in terms of sounding like one is simply spouting talking points, Biden did a better job avoiding that.

I do wish Biden would've called out Ryan on his failure to recognize the authority of that third branch of government, the judicial system. The courts exist for a reason and in that one statement, it sounds as if Romney and Ryan don't believe it's necessary to have a third branch.


Ryan came off as a smug turd blossom, and Biden was the angry old fart. The question I was left with has to do with President Obama's ability to smack down Romney in a similar fashion and not from the perspective of innate ability but from the strategic sense. There's the angry black guy thing but also a younger man calling out a senior citizen on misconceptions and miscommunications,

The second Presidential debate will be interesting to me on this level. The potential for blow-back is high, yet there are debate strategies that will accomplish a similar effect, but they involve judo and kung fu moves, not the left hooks and right uppercuts that Biden had the luxury of using without coming off as a bully.

I was also impressed with the moderator, Martha Raddatz. I think she might have unhinged Ryan a bit, her highly experienced eyes boring holes through that smug think-tank smirk. Biden was good about reminding everyone that we are talking about policy impacts on real people.
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trumpetplayer
post Oct 12 2012, 12:46 PM
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I give the debate to Ryan. Joe, came off as rude and unwilling to address the big issues in the room. Those being the economy and debt. No doubt Joe debates better than Zero, he should considering how long he's been around DC. The biggest difference was in the closing remarks, Ryan offered a plan and a future. Biden offered nothing. Ouch.
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Bulwark
post Oct 12 2012, 12:48 PM
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Biden showed us the real face of the Administration one somewhere between bellicosity and bombast with unrestrained contempt for the other side lurking for its chance to finally be invested with the power and flexibility to do what the President promised in Osawatomie, Kansas and supersede a limited government (It has never worked) for a command & control federal state of boards and bureaus in every facet of your life. Is it any wonder they have been so ineffective in a government of divided powers?

If you think Biden's sneering finger-pointing-&-jabbing were relegated just to Mr. Ryan, just wait until his bunch have nothing to loose in another administration-from-hell and you & yours are in his cross-hairs with unleashed flexibility and unrestrained rules of engagement on the taxpayer field-of-fire. Does anyone with a brain think they are going to stop with taxing someone else when those others would only provide revenue for 8 days of federal spending at the levels they now demand or 3 months if they appropriated everything (100%) those unworthies earn? Get real...these guys are insatiable in their appetites for more command & control of your life and mine, they know what's best for you even if you dont, and they plan to give it to you good and hard. The ones at the top who arbitrarily define what is "fair" can take it all especially if "fair" applies to someone else until they include you in their newest definition. There is no limit for the rapacity of unrestrained government and unrestrained government is what Obama promises.

This post has been edited by Bulwark: Oct 12 2012, 12:49 PM
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akaCG
post Oct 12 2012, 01:38 PM
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What do you think about the VP debate, 2012?

Ryan passed the "One heartbeat away" test with flying colors, and thus benefited his ticket in terms of independents/undecideds.

Biden's performance brought to mind Clint Eastwood's line about him at the RNC ("Joe Biden is kinda line a grin with a body behind it."), and his eye-rolling (reminiscent of Al Gore 2000) boorishness/rudeness, especially when directed at Ms. Raddatz, cost his ticket some women.

Net result: the Romney surge in the polls will continue into next week, when it will be time for the second Presidential debate.

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Ted
post Oct 12 2012, 01:59 PM
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most people (on CNN) gave it a draw on substance with a win for Ryan in style. Biden's rude manner and interruptions and his general fake anger did not help him - esp. with women.

Biden did all he could to duck and weave on the $716 Billion Medicare grab and doubled down on the "tax the rich" nonsense by contradicting Obama who said he would take from 250K up - Biden was 1 million up - so his numbers were bogus

Be interesting t see who in the media catch his lies.

he tried desperately to portray Romney/Ryan as wanting to go to war - failed miserably.

Ryan on the other hand was polite and knowledgeable - he was not rattled by the rude crude Biden and came out of it every bit ready to be VP

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/20...en-Lie-Detector

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Dingo
post Oct 12 2012, 02:11 PM
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Ryan was pretty good at being a political attack dog. If he offered any analysis with accuracy and substance I missed it. Maybe I overlooked something, I'll check the transcript, but I think he is pretty much an empty suit like his boss. Unlike his boss he appears to take some of his nonsense seriously. rolleyes.gif

Biden seemed like a nice guy who obviously had some experience but he has a problem forming complete sentences on occasion.
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Amlord
post Oct 12 2012, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE(Dingo @ Oct 12 2012, 10:11 AM) *
Biden seemed like a nice guy who obviously had some experience but he has a problem forming complete sentences on occasion.

A nice guy? I didn't get that impression.

More importantly, I didn't get any idea of what the incumbents will do in a second term. "Who do you trust?" is not a political agenda. Did the VP offer any plan for jobs? economic recovery? taxes? (ok, we know they'll raise them but he didn't say it).

The VP was fairly free from substance.
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entspeak
post Oct 12 2012, 03:44 PM
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Here is FactCheck.org's analysis of the debate.

They do a good job pointing out who was fibbing, lying and misleading. Though, "the reformer" argument is debatable... Clinton said that many in Congress call him a reformer. She never said he was or that the administration said he was. Whether or not they felt he was a reformer is certainly subject to speculation, but the Obama Administration never called him a reformer.
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Dontreadonme
post Oct 12 2012, 03:58 PM
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After trolling around the bloggerverse and various news-ish sites, I stumbled across a startling discovery:

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Romney-Ryan camp thinks that Ryan trounced Biden and exposed lies and distortions.

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Obama-Biden camp thinks Biden trounced Ryan and exposed lies and distortions.

sleeping.gif
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entspeak
post Oct 12 2012, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 12 2012, 11:58 AM) *
After trolling around the bloggerverse and various news-ish sites, I stumbled across a startling discovery:

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Romney-Ryan camp thinks that Ryan trounced Biden and exposed lies and distortions.

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Obama-Biden camp thinks Biden trounced Ryan and exposed lies and distortions.

sleeping.gif
Of course.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Oct 12 2012, 04:57 PM
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I liked what Bill Maher had to say about it: "Hello? 911? I just saw an old man beating up a kid on t.v.!" rolleyes.gif

If Biden had to interrupt to get his points in--if that's what it took--then I'm glad Joe did it. It was certainly better than keeping his head down and NOT interrupting. I also noticed Ryan taking demonstrably more time answering the questions than he was allowed. So perhaps Biden DID have to interrupt.

Another contrast is that Biden didn't have to defend changing positions on important issues. He is sincere, whether what he says is a gaffe, or something profound versus the "malarkey" the other side promotes. There never was a "47%" statement for Democrats to distance themselves from. They have been the more consistent contenders.

Now that the country has seen that Obama, contrary to Republican charges, is NOT an "angry black man," it is time for him to "bring it" to the next debate.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Oct 12 2012, 05:01 PM
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Hobbes
post Oct 12 2012, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 12 2012, 10:58 AM) *
After trolling around the bloggerverse and various news-ish sites, I stumbled across a startling discovery:

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Romney-Ryan camp thinks that Ryan trounced Biden and exposed lies and distortions.

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Obama-Biden camp thinks Biden trounced Ryan and exposed lies and distortions.


ohmy.gif Affirmation bias confirmed.

Should this also be posted in the News That Doesn't Shock You thread? mrsparkle.gif

It does go to show that the only opinions that really matter are those of the independents...but then most of those have probably already decided as well.

It also does show just how poorly Obama really did, as even the Democratic camp stated they thought he lost the debate.

I missed most of it (will catch it later) but from everyone's thoughts on it, and the part I did see, and the news DTOM shows here, it seems close enough to a draw to call it that. Biden seemed to have done his job by stopping the floodgates, and Ryan didn't completely fall on his face. VP debates especially only really matter if the difference is a landslide, and that doesn't seem to be the case, so the net effect of this one will be miniscule.

It is worth noting, from entspeak's FactCheck article, that much of what is said isn't a lie, just a certain perspective.

QUOTE
Ryan said Obama’s proposal to let tax rates rise for high-income individuals would “tax about 53 percent of small-business income.” Wrong. Ryan is counting giant hedge funds and thousands of other multimillion-dollar enterprises as “small” businesses.


What Ryan said isn't Wrong, as those businesses are classified as small businesses, it seems. That might be somewhat misleading, given everyone's perception of what a small business is, but it isn't wrong. There do appear to be numerous misstatements in this debate, but this example shows that they aren't always 'wrong'.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Oct 12 2012, 05:29 PM
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vsrenard
post Oct 12 2012, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Oct 12 2012, 08:58 AM) *
After trolling around the bloggerverse and various news-ish sites, I stumbled across a startling discovery:

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Romney-Ryan camp thinks that Ryan trounced Biden and exposed lies and distortions.

Uniformly, nearly everyone in the Obama-Biden camp thinks Biden trounced Ryan and exposed lies and distortions.

sleeping.gif


An observation that I see echoed here. From my casual perusal of blogs and postings, I didn't see an overwhelming number of undecideds (how can you be undecided at this point??) come down on one side or the other. This reinforces my belief that the VP debate will have no overall effect on voters.
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akaCG
post Oct 12 2012, 05:16 PM
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"[W]e weren't told they wanted more security there ... We did not know they wanted more security ..."
--- Joe Biden, at last night's debate

"The Vice President was speaking about himself and the President and the White House. He was not referring to the administration ... Obviously, he was referring to, he wasn't talking about the administration writ large, he was speaking about himself and the President and the White House."
--- Jay Carney, at this morning's WH press briefing

The above, illustrated.

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