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> Make the Moderators as superior., Equality is not a virtue in leadership.
JP Cusick
post Nov 20 2013, 08:35 PM
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I suggest that you change the way you moderate the forum by making so the Moderators only moderate and they must not participate in any discussion.

And I have no objection about any Moderator, but whenever any Moderator joins into any discussion then it lowers the status of the moderator to an equal when in fact they are not equal.

My finding is that anytime a Moderator post any comment then they are being a bully on the board simply because they are a Moderator, and that runs off people from the forum.

Surely we all must want more activity on the boards, and I really believe that the Moderator comments drive away people because the Moderators crush our discussions.

In my own life I use to be a Quality Control and Safety Inspector, and so I had a certain power over the workers even over the job foreman because I was the Inspector, so in short time I discovered that if I did something very simple as like I would walk up to a job site and trying to be friendly and I said = "How are you doing?" as if "I am doing fine" but no, because for the Inspector to ask "How are you doing?" then the workers or the crew leader would then give me a detail account of the progress of the job and any other relevant info concerning the work, because when we have power over other people then we simply can not act as if we are equal when we are not.

What I would suggest is that the Moderators be given two (2) identities, as the one anonymous identity can talk and discuss anything on the board, and they would only use the "Moderator" identity in the case of a forum infraction.

Otherwise this forum is a bullies-forum because every Moderator is a bully simply by posting a comment as a Moderator.

The Mods might not see it but I certainly do, and I see no way anyone could fail to see that we are subordinated to whatever the Moderator says.

It would be like a uniform Policeman walking into a Bar and saying = "Hey give me a drink too" - well no.

I really believe that if you would make that change then people would be far more willing to post comments, and the forum would become far more active, as the ideal must be for the forum to be inviting for people to join in and to participate.

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Amlord
post Nov 20 2013, 09:05 PM
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For the most parts, the Moderators here are the most active members.

Our debate positions don't hold any more weight than any other participant, so there is no need to feel bullied.

However, as long time Members, the Moderators in general are fairly persuasive and don't fall for unsubstantiated rubbish. We often ask for sources or for clarifying statements. Again, that is not bully behavior.

If you do have a problem with a post of any Member, even a Moderator, please feel free to use the "Report" button. The Staff reviews these Reports and takes actions, even against Moderators.

There is no need to feel bullied.

By the way, we are not here as superiors. Merely to enforce the Rules of the Board.
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JP Cusick
post Nov 20 2013, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 20 2013, 04:00 PM) *
For the most parts, the Moderators here are the most active members.

Our debate positions don't hold any more weight than any other participant, so there is no need to feel bullied.

However, as long time Members, the Moderators in general are fairly persuasive and don't fall for unsubstantiated rubbish. We often ask for sources or for clarifying statements. Again, that is not bully behavior.

If you do have a problem with a post of any Member, even a Moderator, please feel free to use the "Report" button. The Staff reviews these Reports and takes actions, even against Moderators.

There is no need to feel bullied.

See, the Moderator above just said no.

So when the Boss says no then it is no.

And I am not picking at you, because I appreciate your response here.

You are correct that the Moderators certainly appear to be the most active members, and that is why this has become a bully-forum.

I am not being negative, because I came to this forum because I like it that this forum claims to be tough on rules, but being tough on other members is a different thing.

Why do you not comment on my nice idea to remedy the feelings of being bullied?

You can still post and comment all you want as an equal member, but when an infraction happens then you put on the MODERATOR identity.

You are saying that the Mods are fairly "persuasive" and I tell you that it is NOT persuasion as it is bullying.

QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 20 2013, 04:05 PM) *
By the way, we are not here as superiors. Merely to enforce the Rules of the Board.

Surely if you look then you are not subject to those rules as no one can give you a strike while you can give me a strike.

That is what makes us as unequal under the rules.

The Moderator is meant to be superior, and I say the Moderators needs to be superior, so I suggest to stop acting as if you are our equal which you are not.
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Amlord
post Nov 20 2013, 09:26 PM
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You are going to have to give an example of bullying behavior.

This is a debate board. It is not a blog. You should expect people to disagree with you and ask you to defend your position.

I assure you that Staff members are just as subject to the Rules as everyone else. Staff Members can get strikes and some Staff members have been removed from the Staff.

To directly address your suggestion of "dual identities": I believe this would cause a conflict of interest.

If I log in as "Aaron" (my first name) and post but then I log in as "AMLord" and moderate a topic that "Aaron" has posted in, this is a conflict of interest.

I believe you are confusing posts BY Moderators as moderating posts.

When a Moderator wants to enforce the Rules or calm down a situation, then we use a Moderation Box like this:

This topic is heading too far from the topic for debate. Please address the debate questions


If you don't see a box like this (and they are rare these days) then the post is just a regular post like any other by any member.

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net2007
post Nov 20 2013, 10:27 PM
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If it makes you feel any better, Jamie does the majority of the moderating JP, and she very rarely debates.

I don't really see much bulling, although we do have hot tempered post sometimes. I don't blame that so much on AD as I do politics in general. Its the nature of political debate for people to argue sometimes. I don't always like it when things get a little ugly, but look around the internet, this site is very tame compared to many political debate sites.

This post has been edited by net2007: Nov 20 2013, 10:35 PM
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Jaime
post Nov 20 2013, 10:35 PM
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Keeping this simple - no. This will never happen, but thank you for the suggestion.

Our moderators are volunteers and here of their own volition. Moderation of internet forums such as ours are nothing like real world jobs where people's livelihoods are on the line. As Amlord said (and better than I) Moderators are simply here to ensure the Rules are enforced. You will know when a moderator is being a moderator by the
notice in the moderation box.
Otherwise, that person is posting as any other member. There is no reason to complicate what has been working very well for over a decade.

As to any allegations of moderator bullying, I must also insist on evidence (and if you don't feel comfortable posting it here, please PM me). Actual bullying by any member, moderator or otherwise, is strictly against the Rules.
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JP Cusick
post Nov 21 2013, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 20 2013, 05:35 PM) *
There is no reason to complicate what has been working very well for over a decade.

Are you so certain that it is working so well? as I certainly do not see that.

There appears to be lots of registered members and yet a very small number of people who actually participate in any discussion on the entire forum. That would mean that it is not working so well.

And I am not really complaining, as I am offering a suggestion to be more user friendly so that more people will join into the discussions.

Is not the idea to grow and expand the activity? instead of having a rather one-sided status quo who dominate the forum?

QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 20 2013, 05:35 PM) *
As to any allegations of moderator bullying, I must also insist on evidence ...

That insistence is a type of threat in itself, as either put up or shut up, and so the discussion is over, and that is an example of bullying instead of discussion.

This section of the forum is titled as "Comments and Suggestions" and that is what I am trying to do here = "comment and suggest".

My point is that the bullying is self-inherent simply by having the title of "Moderator" or Admin, because that job title is glaring out to everyone who participates in any discussion.

Your title as "Administrator" means that you are NOT subordinate to the Mods, so your own view is far different than the many other members who are in the same lower position as am I.

Plus in fact I gave a specific example in the post #3 of this thread where I said this:

See, the Moderator above just said no.

So when the Boss says no then it is no.
[ That is an example of bullying. ]

And I gave specific examples to emphasize the reality in my opening post #1 where I tell how myself being an "Inspector" on a job created the same power distinction, and also about the Cop buying a beer in a Bar room would also be a similarity, in that the bullying is self-inherent simply by wearing the badge of Moderator.

Of course you can reject it all, but I am just a messenger who takes the chance of angering the bullies by telling them to settle down.
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scubatim
post Nov 21 2013, 03:25 AM
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I'm sorry, but I think you are feeling defensive about interactions that we as a whole are not seeing. I certainly am not a Mod, nor do I want that responsibility and I am sure many don't want me to be in that position. I admire the moderators, even when posts that I report seem to go ignored even though I know there is discussion on all reported posts. What you appear to me anyway, is someone that got his hand slapped and is wanting to blame someone other than yourself. I have no evidence because we are not active in the same debates, but someone asking for evidence of bullying is not bullying; it is simply asking for an example so we can all see specifically what you are talking about which seems to be evident that you can not produce. Your suggestion has been read and responded to. Your 'problem' that you have presented doesn't really seem to exist unless you are able to produce actual posts that support your thoughts.

Just because there are hundreds of non-participating members of this board is not a demonstration of a broken system. I have signed up for many different forums and websites of various interests of mine that I have not participated in for over a decade. I wouldn't even know what my username would be. I am still counted as a registered member, but my lack of activity is not the result of some conspiracy of that board, it is just my lack of activity. I suggest you move on, but that is just my opinion.
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JP Cusick
post Nov 21 2013, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 10:25 PM) *
... someone asking for evidence of bullying is not bullying; it is simply asking for an example so we can all see specifically what you are talking about which seems to be evident that you can not produce. Your suggestion has been read and responded to. Your 'problem' that you have presented doesn't really seem to exist unless you are able to produce actual posts that support your thoughts.

I really did give examples in several posting here in this short thread, so you could have known that if ..........

... if you would actually read what was posted.

QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 10:25 PM) *
Just because there are hundreds of non-participating members of this board is not a demonstration of a broken system.

No, the forum is not broken, but some simple improvements to make it more friendly and inviting is all I am suggesting.

My suggestion is easy to do and would not harm anyone.

I am not trying to be negative, as I am trying to suggest an improvement.
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scubatim
post Nov 21 2013, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 20 2013, 10:54 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 10:25 PM) *
... someone asking for evidence of bullying is not bullying; it is simply asking for an example so we can all see specifically what you are talking about which seems to be evident that you can not produce. Your suggestion has been read and responded to. Your 'problem' that you have presented doesn't really seem to exist unless you are able to produce actual posts that support your thoughts.

I really did give examples in several posting here in this short thread, so you could have known that if ..........

... if you would actually read what was posted.

If those are examples of bullying, as I have clearly stated, you have not presented anything close to evidence of bullying. Asking for examples is not bullying...it is common practice for people to ask for supporting evidence.

QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 20 2013, 10:54 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 10:25 PM) *
Just because there are hundreds of non-participating members of this board is not a demonstration of a broken system.

No, the forum is not broken, but some simple improvements to make it more friendly and inviting is all I am suggesting.

My suggestion is easy to do and would not harm anyone.

I am not trying to be negative, as I am trying to suggest an improvement.

I believe your suggestion would actually cause more harm than good. As Amlord has described, if he were to participate in a thread as Aaron, then someone reports his post as a violation of the rule and 'Amlord' shows up as a moderator, how would that work? The general public would not know that Aaron and Amlord are the same (I have been around for quite a while now and only today did I learn his name was Aaron) and having Amlord make a ruling over Aaron and whoever reported him would be much worse.

If you can provide an example of actual bullying, I would be interested in seeing it. Remember, someone asking you to provide evidence is not bullying....it is expected behavior from everyone on the board. We debate facts (theoretically), not emotion.
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Julian
post Nov 21 2013, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 21 2013, 03:14 AM) *
Plus in fact I gave a specific example in the post #3 of this thread where I said this:

See, the Moderator above just said no.

So when the Boss says no then it is no.
[ That is an example of bullying. ]


Do you subscribe to the view that if you feel bullied, you are bullied, whether or not any outside observer, whether and however biased or not, would agree that you appear to have been?

For what it's worth, Amlord may be a moderator, but Jaime is his boss within the world of ad.gif. ad.gif is the brainchild of Jaime and Mike and it belongs to them. The have created it and own the servers it runs on - Jaime is the boss and her word is law.

Only in real life employment, I've been bullied by the boss (and, to my shame, I have been a bully as a boss), and I've been told "no" by the boss. Believe me, I can tell the difference. They are not the same thing.

Of course, that's only my opinion, and because my handle (Julian is my real name, by the way) has "Staff" underneath it, you may well choose to ignore it on the grounds that I'm part of the problem that you perceive and not part of the solution. You are free to do that and - unlike some other debate boards (not least those attached to national and international newspapers) - your opinion to that effect will not be redacted or otherwise censored on ad.gif unless in saying so you break the Rules.

In practice, there are enough Mods here (including Jaime and Mike, though not myself; staff members of the committee have advisory powers only.) that more often than not there will be at least one Mod not active in a particular thread who can enforce the Rules. I won't say it never happens, but most of the time it works that way, so you don't have to be afraid of saying something out of turn (unless it's against the Rules).

I can see where you're coming from - on lots of other debate boards, the mods are anonymous. That's not to say they can't or don't participate in debate - we just don't know who the moderators are. Where they are unpaid (as on ad.gif), it's quite likely that the mods are all participating in debate - that is what attracts people to debate and comment sites, after all. The big difference on ad.gif is that you know who the Mods are. You aren't being anonymously punished for some minor infraction as an excuse by someone who, in their public debate profile, you bested in debate; everyone can see who has moderated a particular discussion on ad.gif and can form their own opinions on whether the moderation was legitimate.

And the ad.gif Mods do not act off their own bat, as it were. Instead, they only act in response to reported rule violations, and reports can be made by any ad.gif member, yourself included. If the Mods don't act on a particular report, it's usually because they don't see a particular breach of the letter of the rules, or because the thread has moved on unimpeded by the offending post (in which case they'll keep a closer eye on the violator in future).

So, don't be afraid of Amlord. If you want to be paranoid, you should be afraid of everybody. Mwah hah hah! devil.gif
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Gray Seal
post Nov 21 2013, 04:13 PM
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Do not be intimidated by those with Moderator or Committee or whatever on their ID. These folks do their best to make good arguments here but we had to give them something to do or help them have some sort of status. The really good contributors here do not need such labels. The rest of us here clean their clocks on a regular basis, if you may have noticed. Just approach answering these contributors with this in mind and you will have the confidence you need and deserve when debating them.

Pretty soon, you do not even notice if they have a label or not and just debate them just like they are like the rest of us. There is no reason to be intimidated. They just have some extra work Jamie and Mike have been able to squeeze out of 'em.
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akaCG
post Nov 21 2013, 04:38 PM
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I, for one, welcome our Moderator overlords. Even the one whose first name is Aaron. Unless his last name is Hernandez, that is.

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JP Cusick
post Nov 21 2013, 06:45 PM
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==============================

Well this is priceless.

Everybody gang up on the guy that made the suggestion.

And of course reject the suggestion without any real consideration.

What this really demonstrates is that bullying creates a hostile environment, and people follow their leaders.

sour.gif
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scubatim
post Nov 21 2013, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 21 2013, 01:45 PM) *
==============================

Well this is priceless.

Everybody gang up on the guy that made the suggestion.

And of course reject the suggestion without any real consideration.

What this really demonstrates is that bullying creates a hostile environment, and people follow their leaders.

sour.gif

I think you are little too sensitive. No one has ganged up on anyone. No one has rejected the suggestion without any real consideration. No one is hostile. From what I see, you are defensive because people asked you for examples. You took that as bullying. Then when people explained in simple terms why it would not work, you take that as blanket rejection.

I suggest you thicken your skin, read the posts and work on reading comprehension. If you think this thread has any level of bullying in it, you might consider not participating at ad.gif because this is child's play compared to heated debates that actually take place in the forums.
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LoneWisdom
post Nov 21 2013, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 21 2013, 02:45 PM) *
==============================

Well this is priceless.

Everybody gang up on the guy that made the suggestion.

And of course reject the suggestion without any real consideration.

What this really demonstrates is that bullying creates a hostile environment, and people follow their leaders.

sour.gif



As far as I can tell, most of the responders to your opinions have been very civil. Other than a few lines, most have been trying to debate your topics respectfully. If I was getting this much feedback from so many members, I would be examining my methods. You might be carrying too much baggage from other sites.

Finding fault with a member's association with this site is a poor debate tactic in my opinion. I would concentrate on arguing your points with some supporting links.



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JP Cusick
post Nov 21 2013, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 11:47 PM) *
If those are examples of bullying, as I have clearly stated, you have not presented anything close to evidence of bullying. Asking for examples is not bullying...it is common practice for people to ask for supporting evidence.

If you can provide an example of actual bullying, I would be interested in seeing it. Remember, someone asking you to provide evidence is not bullying....it is expected behavior from everyone on the board. We debate facts (theoretically), not emotion.

What you are really doing is trying to sidetrack the discussion away from the point by demanding some such "evidence" when I am not trying to report any wrongdoing by the Mods.

So your point (of evidence) is not my point, and your point (of evidence) is not the point of this thread, and your point (of evidence) is a sidetracking away from the real point which has nothing to do with evidence.

The point is that the position of a Moderator is by-itself a bully pulpit, and as such a Moderator is a bully even when they are being super nice and considerate and doing nothing wrong.

Just like a Policeman or an Inspector or the Supervisor is always a bully position (power position) and it rightfully needs to be the superior position.

The title I gave to this thread is = "Make the Moderators as Superior."

What is being done here is pretending that the Moderators are the equals just taking part in the discussions when the Mods are NOT equal, as they need to be superior and act as a neutral overruling authority.



=======================================


QUOTE(Julian @ Nov 21 2013, 05:17 AM) *
So, don't be afraid of Amlord. If you want to be paranoid, you should be afraid of everybody. Mwah hah hah! devil.gif
ph34r.gif
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Nov 21 2013, 11:13 AM) *
Do not be intimidated by those with Moderator or Committee or whatever on their ID.

I never said that I was afraid of or intimidated by anyone whether Moderator or otherwise, as that is a thing that you two are projecting onto me but does not come from me.

If I were afraid or intimidated then I would stop coming here to this forum, and I certainly would not have started a thread like this one if I were afraid or intimidated.

To me the threat is more of an irritant and a nuisance which interferes with any healthy discussion that could happen on this forum.

When a person shows a badge of a "Moderator" then they need to give some appearance of neutrality and of consideration for others and of not trying to impose their opinions onto any discussion - that does not happen here.

The Mods here are not neutral as they are biased and one sided - their own side.

That does not make me afraid or intimidated as it simply puts a stop to any conversation outside of their manipulations.

And that is NOT accusing any of them of wrongdoing / manipulation - no, it is the badge itself which creates a dysfunctional conversation to happen, because the playing field is lopsided in favor of the bully pulpit.
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scubatim
post Nov 21 2013, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 21 2013, 02:29 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 20 2013, 11:47 PM) *
If those are examples of bullying, as I have clearly stated, you have not presented anything close to evidence of bullying. Asking for examples is not bullying...it is common practice for people to ask for supporting evidence.

If you can provide an example of actual bullying, I would be interested in seeing it. Remember, someone asking you to provide evidence is not bullying....it is expected behavior from everyone on the board. We debate facts (theoretically), not emotion.

What you are really doing is trying to sidetrack the discussion away from the point by demanding some such "evidence" when I am not trying to report any wrongdoing by the Mods.

So your point (of evidence) is not my point, and your point (of evidence) is not the point of this thread, and your point (of evidence) is a sidetracking away from the real point which has nothing to do with evidence.

The point is that the position of a Moderator is by-itself a bully pulpit, and as such a Moderator is a bully even when they are being super nice and considerate and doing nothing wrong.

Just like a Policeman or an Inspector or the Supervisor is always a bully position (power position) and it rightfully needs to be the superior position.

The title I gave to this thread is = "Make the Moderators as Superior."

What is being done here is pretending that the Moderators are the equals just taking part in the discussions when the Mods are NOT equal, as they need to be superior and act as a neutral overruling authority.


So you are bringing up a suggestion about a problem that is not truly existent, but fabricated in your mind? If there isn't an example of bullying, then why the change? Because your view of someone being a moderator is equal to being a bully? I wonder if you need to update your definitions of those terms?

Second, as more than one person has illustrated, what is your opinion as to why we say it won't work? Or have you chosen to ignore those posts?
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JP Cusick
post Nov 21 2013, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 21 2013, 02:45 PM) *
So you are bringing up a suggestion about a problem that is not truly existent, but fabricated in your mind? If there isn't an example of bullying, then why the change? Because your view of someone being a moderator is equal to being a bully? I wonder if you need to update your definitions of those terms?

I really have given examples, and I intend to give another example below.

I simply have no intention of playing along with the full-scale effort to sidetrack this thread into meaningless dribble about examples when it is a matter of authority.

See the subtitle given to this thread = "Equality is not a virtue in leadership."

QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 21 2013, 02:45 PM) *
Second, as more than one person has illustrated, what is your opinion as to why we say it won't work? Or have you chosen to ignore those posts?

The claim that "it will not work" is in itself a type of bullying because it is so simple that it can be done rather easily without any complications.

Claiming that "it will not work" when in fact it can work and it is simply being stubbornly refused - is just more bullying.

Some here have spoken more truthfully that it is just not going to be done, or that the suggestion is simply rejected, and those too are just types of more bullying.

Your last point has merit in that - do I dare ignore them? why? because the Moderator and the Administrator said it - and therefore no one is free to ignore THEM.

My own understanding is that the bullying makes the bully to feel strong, they feel power, their words must be right because no one can challenge them, and being a bully is a big part of self-righteousness.

What I am suggesting is to stop acting strong and start being strong by getting off of the bullying.
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scubatim
post Nov 21 2013, 08:33 PM
Post #20


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QUOTE(JP Cusick @ Nov 21 2013, 03:24 PM) *
QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 21 2013, 02:45 PM) *
So you are bringing up a suggestion about a problem that is not truly existent, but fabricated in your mind? If there isn't an example of bullying, then why the change? Because your view of someone being a moderator is equal to being a bully? I wonder if you need to update your definitions of those terms?

I really have given examples, and I intend to give another example below.

I simply have no intention of playing along with the full-scale effort to sidetrack this thread into meaningless dribble about examples when it is a matter of authority.

See the subtitle given to this thread = "Equality is not a virtue in leadership."

QUOTE(scubatim @ Nov 21 2013, 02:45 PM) *
Second, as more than one person has illustrated, what is your opinion as to why we say it won't work? Or have you chosen to ignore those posts?

The claim that "it will not work" is in itself a type of bullying because it is so simple that it can be done rather easily without any complications.

Claiming that "it will not work" when in fact it can work and it is simply being stubbornly refused - is just more bullying.

Some here have spoken more truthfully that it is just not going to be done, or that the suggestion is simply rejected, and those too are just types of more bullying.

Your last point has merit in that - do I dare ignore them? why? because the Moderator and the Administrator said it - and therefore no one is free to ignore THEM.

My own understanding is that the bullying makes the bully to feel strong, they feel power, their words must be right because no one can challenge them, and being a bully is a big part of self-righteousness.

What I am suggesting is to stop acting strong and start being strong by getting off of the bullying.

You obviously have no interest in reading anything that counters your thought. I refuse to have a discussion with someone so closed minded that you refuse to accept other points of view. If you feel bullying is going on, report it. Don't be surprised if there aren't many more posts to this thread.
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