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> America's Debate: Where the VCR Still Flashes "12:00.', A Comment in Search of a Suggestion
nighttimer
post Jun 1 2014, 01:10 PM
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Things sure are quiet.

Too quiet.

I had reason to revisit some of the threads in the Election 2008 forum. My, what a lively time that was. Clinton vs Obama vs McCain for all the marbles and doggone if it wasn't a romping, stomping time where allies became enemies, the topics were plentiful, and the debates came fast and furious.

Looking at all the names of posters who were here and now gone makes me wonder who's dead, who's alive, who went back to lurking, who got bored, who got banned and who found other places on the Internet to hang out? So many come and gone.

America has gone through a lot of changes since 2008. Some good, some bad and some somewhere in between. That's America for you. It keeps on changing even when you might wish it would slow down a bit and not rush into the future.

What hasn't changed is America's Debate itself. With the exception that the names of the members no longer posting as frequently or at all has grown and the names of those who do is confined to a familiar group making familiar arguments, AD looks exactly the same. Same graphics, same layout, same features, same restrictions, same everything.

Mostly
the same.

On the launch page under the 100 Newest Topics with Replies, over a quarter of the topics (26) were created in 2013.

As of this writing there are 4,671 registered members. If we were to drill down to active members there probably wouldn't be many more than two dozen. Maybe.

The board's Administrators have been M.I.A. of late. Jaime has posted seven times in 2014 and none since March 19. Mike has been more prolific (eight posts) if limited where he posts. All his 2014 posts were in the NFL 2013 picks thread and with his last made on February 2 before the Super Bowl.

The last thread Mike's created non-football related dates back to July 2012. Jaime's last half-dozen threads have all been birthday shout-outs interrupted by a call to join a chat about the 2013 State of the Union. They both have their blogs, but neither has been updated since April.

I recall Mike (or was it Jaime?) say on America's Debate radio (which I'll get to in a moment) that they had purposefully drawn back from being active participants in debates on America's Debate for reasons I don't recall exactly. Pretty sure they were sound reasons.

At any rate, they seem to be silent partners on their own debate board.

Then there's the AD launch page. Have you looked at it lately? Immediately under the site's masthead is a plug for America's Debate Radio - 314th Live Edition: Oct 21 2012, 09:00 PM. There's still a live link directly to the now defunct radio show. Under Announcements there is the aforementioned State of the Union chat that's a year old, but still the most recent. Under New Resources the "latest" entry is over three years old made by Lesly, who stopped posting three years ago (but just posted on my Facebook feed yesterday) that directs to a link that is dead.

There were no 2012-2013 Year in Review winners. The 2012 Best Overall Debater award was shared between JohnfromCleveland and Raptavio, who despite the current birthday best wishes vanished without a trace in December 2012 and hasn't been seen round these parts since.

Like I said, quiet. Too quiet? ermm.gif

This is not my primary debate board any longer and hasn't been since the 2008 elections. That was an exhilarating year from me, but an exhausting one too. I needed a break from the AD habit and I took one. While I've increased my posts here since the Trayvon Martin tragedy, there aren't as many debates on America's Debate I find engaging. Partly because there simply aren't a wide variance of topics discussed here and most of the participants are the same ones whom have been here as long as I have with akaCG providing most of what passes for "new blood" among the posters.

As fun as it is (occasionally) to spar with akaCG, it's not enough. Ah, ya missed out, akaCG. Back in the day when there was a more varied group of conservatives and Republicans on the board you would have far more support behind you than you do now. The board has become pretty conservative now, but then it was like the Chic song. Good times.

But the nature of the Internet is sites come and sites go and the people who visit and become a part of the cybercommunity come and go even faster. There are peaks and valleys, highs and lows, boom and bust times for every site and America's Debate is no exception to that hard, fast rule.

This is the Comments and Suggestions forum and I've commented. Suggestions? Don't really have any. I know what I think the board needs, but what I think isn't important. This board has a dated, dusty, and diminished look and feel to it. I won't speculate why it is that way, but I can see the evidence before my eyes and what I see is an America's Debate that looks and feels like a once-popular bar in a strip mall fallen on hard times and now nobody new comes in and its kept alive primarily by the old regulars who remember it the way it was and look past the way it is.

In the America's Debate Bar and Grille there's still a jukebox in the corner playing all the big hits of five or more years ago, one old color TV that only gets the three network channels (and PBS), a radio tuned to the AM dial, and a VCR with no tapes to play flashing "12:00" over and over and over.

In the History section of America's Debate (last updated 5/11/07) it boasts of the site upgrade and how The Future Holds Limitless Possibilities.

The Number One movie of 2007 was Spider-Man 3. The Departed won Best Picture and the song of the year was "Not Ready to Make Nice" by the Dixie Chicks and the Oakland Raiders chose JaMarcus Russell as the Number One pick in the NFL Draft. Dontreadonme won the Best Overall Debater award.

Who will win the award this year? Does it even matter?

There is a possibility it does. A limited possibility.
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 1 2014, 03:01 PM
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My suggestion is that debate has devolved over time because there aren't that many things to debate any longer. I just heard that President Obama got the one and only POW out of Afghanistan, and that he traded Gitmo prisoners for him. What debate would come out of that and where would people land? As you've expressed, it's entirely predictable.

The same can be said about debates in the media, not just on the Internet. As for sites coming and going, yep, all the time.

I've noticed in music that interesting stuff comes and goes all the time too, but also that waves of interest develop during the doldrums and come crashing in somewhat later. Literature tends to happen like this, as do technological advancements. So, I've got a theory:

The universe has within it some kind of inspirational wave movement. People get the same ideas at the same time, and those capable of moving with the ideas bring them to the fore. Usually then, copycats figure out how to capitalize on the new ideas, and voila! You get more Bill Gates types in the world. They're not especially smart or creative, just at the right place during the right time.

Gates is a great example. His idea was that a company could make money off of software alone, while the conventional wisdom of the time was that you had to sell hardware primarily and software only as support for the hardware. Software was free for a good portion of the early computer biz, back when it was mostly mainframes with some minis.

Then came the killer app, spreadsheet. Microsoft did not develop the first one, but what they did accomplish was to make installation a breeze and included addictive games like solitaire. Do notice that it was V. 3.0 when this happened. The earlier versions of Windows sucked.

So, might ad.gif again draw a lot of interest? Maybe not. Most of the big questions have been addressed and argued to death. Bickering on Twitter is far easier, and that's where people have gravitated to for both stupid fights and pushing some sort of agenda. Still, another wave of debate interest could wash over us and bring us back in via the riptide.

Another overall trend has been becoming familiar with the Internet, which has been going on for a couple of decades. With familiarity comes contempt and boredom.

MOOC might be making an impact as well. Why argue with basically ignorant types when you can take college-level classes from respectable institutions for free or for relatively low prices? I can't think of a good reason to keep on wrestling with pigs either.
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Julian
post Jun 1 2014, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jun 1 2014, 04:01 PM) *
So, might ad.gif again draw a lot of interest? Maybe not. Most of the big questions have been addressed and argued to death. Bickering on Twitter is far easier, and that's where people have gravitated to for both stupid fights and pushing some sort of agenda.


I think Twitter has drawn out a lot of the people who maybe would have been more active on ad.gif in the past (often to the benefit of ad.gif). Also, what didn't happen in 2003 or 2006 near as much, but which is almost routine now - and to ad.gif's detriment - is the development of below-the-line comments on pretty much every news website, be it trite showbizzy gossip stuff or the more heavyweight politics-and-events news of the traditional broadsheet newspaper. It's pretty easy to rad an article on a breaking story and comment directly on it BTL with possibly tens or hundreds of thousands of other readers to engage with. In the founding days of ad.gif, nobody knew how things were going to pan out, and we could have developed into the Next Big Thing.

We may yet, Next Big Things turn rapidly into Last Big Flops on the web - Facebook was really fun and almost indispensible maybe four or five years ago, but these days is rapidly becoming a way for your dull acquaintances to annoy you with requests to join Farm Heroes Saga or some other game, or share the latest lolcats picture they've seen (even that is a year or two off the pace these days, but you get the idea). Twitter still has some mileage, but too often is a venue for retweeting something tweeted by someone you follow so you can bask in their reflected glory. And Google has yet to nail social media the way it has nailed search and web advertising - Google+ works just fine, but nobody's on it. Nobody knows what will work and what won't until after is has worked (or not), and ad.gif may yet get its day in the sun. (Facebook was around for years before it took off.)

But it's true, we have gone off the boil here a little. I think perhaps we're often a bit too intimidating - to a noob, most of our threads here read like a group of people who've known each other for years arguing amongst themselves - not least because that's a pretty good approximation of what we really are. I imagine it would take a bit more than just having a strong opinion to walk in and contribute; it would feel a bit intrusive, no? Especially if arguments which are new to you (but old to the old hands at ad.gif) get shot down.
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Gray Seal
post Jun 1 2014, 05:58 PM
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America's Debate has been the site Mike and Jaime envisioned. It is the best place to discuss issues of the day with voluntary participation. I see issues confronted from many different angles. I do see meaningless tripe put forth as constructive thought but most of the ideas expressed do have consideration and principle behind those ideas.

America's Debate is quiet and that it a reflection of the entire country. Most of people are either stuck on a treadmill heading no where with an expectation of something bad up ahead or with a bit of optimism that pennies from heaven will begin to fall anytime now. A great majority of Americans are not actively participating in considering the problems of the day. Look at the participation in primaries. Pitiful. People have no time to read a place like ad.gif. When you are busy standing on a treadmill it takes up all your time.

People who have posted here see that having a good debate has not changed a thing. Sharing ideas and thought processes is a good thing but they have been ineffectual for affecting our own personal lives. Once you have arranged your own thought process to one's satisfaction and expressed them a few times what is the point in doing the same again and again?

The country is stagnant. The same problems keep happening over and over again. There is no progress. It is stimulating to discover solutions and express them but discouraging when no one is there to hear them. Why do the masses not care?

As it gets worse, more people will move off the treadmill and a place like ad.gif can be a resource for those who are looking for ideas and perspective. ad.gif does not need new window dressing it needs a country where people do not have 12:00 flashing in their brains who consider this flashing to prove they are thinking.

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Trouble
post Jun 2 2014, 07:03 AM
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I guess I do share a certain culpability to the tardiness. I have several issues occupying my time this spring which have left me unavailable for free ranging discussions.

When I do have time I'm testing different translators of various foreign news outlets. I've almost given up on english oriented news consumption. Corruption 1, debate 0. Yes it is that bad. Yes it is in a state of decay and yes framing an issue on anything is a herculean task when fact finding is effervescent. The problem I'm finding is that when presenting material that does not translate well I'm opening doors to ridicule of the amateurish variety which overpowers the point I may be making. Confusion 1 debate 0.

Meaningful questions are becoming harder to elucidate and more difficult to formulate in a propagandized society. I'm hesitant about repeating the talking points and even when said points go bad within days the news outlets no longer pick up the contradictions as they once did. This makes commentary on ABC event extremely difficult and ultimately a fruitless endeavor until well after the fact. Recognizing fabrication is not he same as refuting fabrication and by that time the thread has passed its expiry date. Timely commentary is no longer timely. Obstruction 1, debate 0.

I am looking for a dodo bird, you see investigative journalism was never common to begin with but now in a poorer more polarized world it might as well be extinct. The result is quite predictable, bad news makes lurkers of us all. The silence is nothing personal, it is merely a reflection of a failing news cycle. I do hope the radio side comes back as a way of reinvigorating interest. I'm game, anyone else?

This post has been edited by Trouble: Jun 2 2014, 07:08 AM
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 2 2014, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Jun 2 2014, 03:03 AM) *
I do hope the radio side comes back as a way of reinvigorating interest. I'm game, anyone else?

Do you mean ad.gif radio or the general medium? If the general medium, do you mean talk radio or more in-depth reporting?

I really haven't noticed any change in the population. Most people don't think very much about anything at all, and so are pretty boring. Some are brilliant and get to have face time as experts or at least knowledgeable players. What the Internet has done is to have given amplification of the mundane parrots out there spewing conventional wisdom.

Then of course there's the impact of smartphones connected to the Internet. Cheap (relatively, if you do your shopping) computers were put into the world's hands. As it turns out, those hands mostly thumb drivel.

I don't find that surprising or depressing at all. It just is and has always been this way. What might come of it?

My bet is on a return to actual life after the novelty of being able to thumb drivel and broadcast it across a disinterested world fades. Then the Internet will have less crap and more substance, since it is a very powerful tool that enables things like MOOC. You know, for those who prefer substance over crap.
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nighttimer
post Jun 2 2014, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jun 2 2014, 07:14 AM) *
QUOTE(Trouble @ Jun 2 2014, 03:03 AM) *
I do hope the radio side comes back as a way of reinvigorating interest. I'm game, anyone else?

Do you mean ad.gif radio or the general medium? If the general medium, do you mean talk radio or more in-depth reporting?


Not trying to speak for Trouble, but I believe he means the America's Debate radio program.

QUOTE(AuthorMusician)
I really haven't noticed any change in the population. Most people don't think very much about anything at all, and so are pretty boring. Some are brilliant and get to have face time as experts or at least knowledgeable players. What the Internet has done is to have given amplification of the mundane parrots out there spewing conventional wisdom.

Then of course there's the impact of smartphones connected to the Internet. Cheap (relatively, if you do your shopping) computers were put into the world's hands. As it turns out, those hands mostly thumb drivel.

I don't find that surprising or depressing at all. It just is and has always been this way. What might come of it?

My bet is on a return to actual life after the novelty of being able to thumb drivel and broadcast it across a disinterested world fades. Then the Internet will have less crap and more substance, since it is a very powerful tool that enables things like MOOC. You know, for those who prefer substance over crap.


Something you said earlier AM, I want to pick up on. It seems highly logical to me the rise of social media has done a number on online debate and particularly among the young. Not sure what percentage of AD members are under the age of 30, but I would guess in a 148 characters Twitterverse, the sheer volume of text and data on this site is both daunting and uninviting to them.

I also wonder if this site is optimized for tablets and smartphones? Even if you were only browsing America's Debate how does it look on an iPhone?

I couldn't disagree more there aren't enough sufficient stories to talk about. On another board I frequent the topic of the NBA trying to oust L.A. Clippers owner Donald Sterling for his racist remarks has 249 replies and over 7,000 views and another over Elliot Rodger's shooting spree got 308 responses and nearly 10,000 views.

Hot topics such as the release of Sgt. Berghdahl, the death of Maya Angelou, Jay Carney's resignation as Press Secretary, a SWAT team screwing up a drug raid after dropping a flash grenade in a baby's crib, the botched execution of Clayton Lockett in Oklahoma and the de facto moratorium on the death penalty since then, fracking, and the pregnant woman in Pakistan who was stoned to death in an "honor killing" are among the topical subjects not being discussed here.

That's an observation, not a knock. When there isn't the level of participation necessary to cover, develop and discuss a wide group of topics, what you get are the same old ones rehashed time and again.
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BoF
post Jun 2 2014, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 1 2014, 08:10 AM) *
Who will win the award this year? Does it even matter?

The awards were due in the summer, if remember correctly, July and August. They didn’t happen this year. That makes Ringwraith’s signature obsolete, and is just another sign of absentee landlords who don’t care if the roof leaks or the sidewalk is crumbling.

This board started dying with the passing away of Wertz—a man who not only researched and debated well, but inspired others to put forth their best efforts.

Now, Americasdebate could just as well be characterized Americaspropaganda. A big fish in small pond has become big fish in an irrelevant pond. Debate has been replaced by endless links, many of them to dubious characters like some silly "hawk" in Iowa, who begs for beer money.

Under the circumstances, I wonder why then board hasn’t gone then way of the radio show.

This post has been edited by BoF: Jun 3 2014, 12:38 AM
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Trouble
post Jun 2 2014, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 2 2014, 07:14 AM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jun 2 2014, 07:14 AM) *
QUOTE(Trouble @ Jun 2 2014, 03:03 AM) *
I do hope the radio side comes back as a way of reinvigorating interest. I'm game, anyone else?

Do you mean ad.gif radio or the general medium? If the general medium, do you mean talk radio or more in-depth reporting?


Not trying to speak for Trouble, but I believe he means the America's Debate radio program.


Yes that is correct.

QUOTE(BoF)
Now, Americasdebate could just as well be characterized Americaspropaganda. A big fish in small pond has become big fish in an irrelevant pond. Debate has been replaced by endless links, many of them to dubious characters like some silly "hawk" in Iowa, who begs for beer money.

Under the circumstances, I wonder why then board hasn't gone then way of the radio show.


I would not go that far BoF. All that has happened is the people like the politics have become more entrenched in their respective views. That and the aforementioned new technology drawing people away. I guess you could say the belief systems are more polarized than a decade ago but you can't blame that on anyone here. That is a global trend not a national one. It is what it is.

I also would not single out America as the sole choice of political frustration as this phenomena is happening world wide. The only difference is the degree to which constitutional vestige is corrupting first. I'm sure if we can get all participants to at least address the issue, a sincere effort will illicit a sincere response just like the logos on old VCR tapes, I'm going to 'be kind and rewind'!

This post has been edited by Trouble: Jun 2 2014, 11:07 PM
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BoF
post Jun 2 2014, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE(Trouble @ Jun 2 2014, 06:04 PM) *
QUOTE(BoF)
Now, Americasdebate could just as well be characterized Americaspropaganda. A big fish in small pond has become big fish in an irrelevant pond. Debate has been replaced by endless links, many of them to dubious characters like some silly "hawk" in Iowa, who begs for beer money.

Under the circumstances, I wonder why then board hasn't gone then way of the radio show.


I would not go that far BoF. All that has happened is the people like the politics have become more entrenched in their respective views. That and the aforementioned new technology drawing people away. I guess you could say the belief systems are more polarized than a decade ago but you can't blame that on anyone here. That is a global trend not a national one. It is what it is.

I also would not single out America as the sole choice of political frustration as this phenomena is happening world wide. The only difference is the degree to which constitutional vestige is corrupting first. I'm sure if we can get all participants to at least address the issue, a sincere effort will illicit a sincere response just like the logos on old VCR tapes, I'm going to 'be kind and rewind'!

That's fine Trouble, but I would really like to hear what the owners have to say.

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AuthorMusician
post Jun 3 2014, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 2 2014, 09:14 AM) *
I couldn't disagree more there aren't enough sufficient stories to talk about. On another board I frequent the topic of the NBA trying to oust L.A. Clippers owner Donald Sterling for his racist remarks has 249 replies and over 7,000 views and another over Elliot Rodger's shooting spree got 308 responses and nearly 10,000 views.

Hot topics such as the release of Sgt. Berghdahl, the death of Maya Angelou, Jay Carney's resignation as Press Secretary, a SWAT team screwing up a drug raid after dropping a flash grenade in a baby's crib, the botched execution of Clayton Lockett in Oklahoma and the de facto moratorium on the death penalty since then, fracking, and the pregnant woman in Pakistan who was stoned to death in an "honor killing" are among the topical subjects not being discussed here.

That's an observation, not a knock. When there isn't the level of participation necessary to cover, develop and discuss a wide group of topics, what you get are the same old ones rehashed time and again.

That's a good point about not having enough participants. It is of course the result of something(s), and like Mrs. P, people are going fishing. It is springtime, after all. I guess not too many people get up in the morning and head off to post on a forum site or two, contributing their free content, sometimes even original, while the coffee brews.
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vsrenard
post Jun 3 2014, 02:04 PM
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I agree that the board has lost the quality it had when Wertz was still here. The thing that first attracted to me about ad.gif was that it walked the line between a discussion board, where people posted links to current events and then shared their opinions (and perhaps some facts) about it, and a formal debate board. You had to put some thought into creating a thread, with the right source materials, and well-crafted questions to start the debate.

What made it a unique place to be also means it's a little more work than posting to a discussion board, or sharing a particular point of view on a board where you're less likely to have to justify your words. And frankly, I think people, in general, don't want to put that much work into their posts. It's much easier to have running conversations with people that are more immediate and less thoughtful verbiage.

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Gray Seal
post Jun 3 2014, 02:56 PM
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We have had great posters on the board. The list of people who contributed in the past but not lately is lengthy and not one person. We will continue to have great posters and will have more in the future. We have great posters right now who put in much thought and research for supporting links.

I do not think there is a problem with ad.gif. The melancholy of discussion is a reflection of the melancholy of the United States. When the same problems surface over and over again without a progress towards solving them. The discussion does get repetitive and old. There is much to explore to get the United States out of its rut. We current posters will carry on the tradition of thoughtful debate/discussion. This is a lull before the storm. The United States will be upheaval as will be the rest of the world.

One thing great about ad.gif is that all of the great posts are still here! If you look at the guest traffic many are looking at archived discussions. Those ideas are here and are still current. ad.gif is a great resource for researching political ideas and perspectives.

Mike and Jaime have a great site and I am thankful for the work they have done to create it! ad.gif has a life of its own and the posters are its vitality. As long as the importance of constructive debate remains paramount ad.gif will continue to be valuable.
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JohnfrmCleveland
post Jun 3 2014, 06:06 PM
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I haven't noticed a post by a noob for, like, ever. I don't know what the sign-up rate is like lately, but whatever it is, the participation rate for noobs needs to rise above zero. That's where the new voices are going to come from.
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post Jun 3 2014, 08:52 PM
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I simply drifted off and took to occasionally nodding in at the window. In my opinion, this was no longer the site I was excited about participating in 10 years ago; but, change is inevitable whether we think it for better or worse.
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Aquilla
post Jun 3 2014, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Jun 3 2014, 01:06 PM) *
I haven't noticed a post by a noob for, like, ever. I don't know what the sign-up rate is like lately, but whatever it is, the participation rate for noobs needs to rise above zero. That's where the new voices are going to come from.



Well, we might start by not referring to people as "noobs". cool.gif I know it's an Internet thing, but still.... I too would like to see more participation here from people new to the forum, if they bring an honest point of view.

However, if they come here and lie and misrepresent things as some have done they will get called on it.


Aquilla
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AuthorMusician
post Jun 3 2014, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE(Aquilla @ Jun 3 2014, 05:02 PM) *
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Jun 3 2014, 01:06 PM) *
I haven't noticed a post by a noob for, like, ever. I don't know what the sign-up rate is like lately, but whatever it is, the participation rate for noobs needs to rise above zero. That's where the new voices are going to come from.



Well, we might start by not referring to people as "noobs". cool.gif I know it's an Internet thing, but still.... I too would like to see more participation here from people new to the forum, if they bring an honest point of view.

However, if they come here and lie and misrepresent things as some have done they will get called on it.


Aquilla

Yeah, that's a bad name for attracting new contributors. What if the staff of a restaurant were to call out that name every time they saw a new customer? I don't know about others, but cold stares are more welcome to me. I at least have a chance to charm my way in.

Maybe one of the problems has to do with the tasks involved, as vsrenard pointed out. Another might be the utter futility in trying to change anyone's mind. At one time the words people read were all on paper, and so there was more of a persuasion factor at work. Not just anyone could get into print. Now everyone can, electronically. Tied to this is the temptation to troll or to become some other form of nimrod.

That is not limited at all to debate sites. It happens just about everywhere and seemingly for everything, from product reviews to video comments. I do acknowledge that the practice can be entertaining if done well, and to the masters of funny insults, I bow to thee.
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nighttimer
post Jun 5 2014, 05:51 AM
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I would say that it's interesting how four days after opening this thread a few Sponsors and Members have shared their thoughts while not a single Committee member, Moderator or Administratorhas weighed in, but actually it's more than interesting.

It's revealing. dry.gif
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Julian
post Jun 5 2014, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 5 2014, 06:51 AM) *
I would say that it's interesting how four days after opening this thread a few Sponsors and Members have shared their thoughts while not a single Committee member, Moderator or Administratorhas weighed in, but actually it's more than interesting.

It's revealing. dry.gif


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nighttimer
post Jun 5 2014, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE(Julian @ Jun 5 2014, 04:28 AM) *
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 5 2014, 06:51 AM) *
I would say that it's interesting how four days after opening this thread a few Sponsors and Members have shared their thoughts while not a single Committee member, Moderator or Administratorhas weighed in, but actually it's more than interesting.

It's revealing. dry.gif


What am I, chopped liver?


Oops. My bad, mate. Didn't see ya over there admiring the hot brunettes. mrsparkle.gif

I'm blind in one eye and can't see out the other. cool.gif

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