logo 
spacer
  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

If you have an opinion, you should share it! Register Now!

America's Debate hosts the best in news, government, and political debate. Register now to take part in the most civil and constructive debate on the Internet. Join the community, and get ready to be challenged!

Click here to start

> Sponsored Links

Register to remove these ads!
> Where's the racial healing?
Bikerdad
post Aug 19 2015, 02:42 AM
Post #1


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,834
Member No.: 715
Joined: May-8-03

Gender: Male
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



QUOTE
Seven years ago, in the gauzy afterglow of a stirring election night in Chicago, commentators dared ask whether the United States had finally begun to heal its divisions over race and atone for the original sin of slavery by electing its first black president. It has not. Not even close.

A New York Times/CBS News poll conducted last week reveals that nearly six in 10 Americans, including heavy majorities of both whites and blacks, think race relations are generally bad, and that nearly four in 10 think the situation is getting worse. By comparison, two-thirds of Americans surveyed shortly after President Obama took office said they believed that race relations were generally good.
New York Times

Questions for Debate:
  1. Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?
  2. What has happened to racial relations?
  3. In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
AuthorMusician
post Aug 19 2015, 06:33 PM
Post #2


**********
Glasses and journalism work for me.

Sponsor
November 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 6,393
Member No.: 297
Joined: December-1-02

From: Blueberry Hill
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?

I don't recall that as being a campaign promise, and what you've quoted was speculation on whether this was a sign of less racism in this country. It didn't take long before overt racists crawled out and rallied against anything Obama tried to do, but that was mixed in with simple partisanship, so it was still unclear as to what was going on.

What has happened to racial relations?

It's been institutionalized and made harder to detect, but investigations as with Ferguson revealed the ugly underbelly that exists. It's an ongoing investigation too as more police departments demonstrate probable systemic racism. So civil rights in the 1960s led to the fall of overt racism, and covert racism became the standard way of practicing it. Ubiquitous cameras have played a major role in the exposure of covert racism.

In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?

The percentage seems to have remained the same, but the hard numbers probably have risen with the population increases. Subconscious racism is now being counted, so that likely means more racism than before as the definition broadens. As for my personal encounters with racism, no change. It'd have to go back to when I lived with my folks. Racism galore but not aimed at me. I'm male, white, and old now. It's more like getting respect for having put up with this life for so long, and I get that from lots of different people. Sometimes people appreciate the little shaman tricks I've learned along the way to help others get out of bad spots. Last time I got hollered at for being a racist was while in Memphis, TN in the later 1980s. Hint: Don't use the Western expression buckaroo while in the South. In fact, the less said the better if you're from the North or have spent time in the West.

*

With the waning ability to conduct covert racism, racism itself might fade away. Or it might happen with mixed relationships. Probably those two things and a dozen or more influences, but racism is rapidly becoming harder to carry out. It'll likely stay in the hearts and minds of certain people, but manifesting those feelings and thoughts will become rare over the next few new generations. Looks like the millennials have a good handle on it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dingo
post Aug 20 2015, 05:28 AM
Post #3


**********
Elite Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 5,065
Member No.: 225
Joined: November-3-02

From: Monterey Bay, Calif.
Gender: Male
Politics: Independent
Party affiliation: Private



What has happened to racial relations?
Clearly they've advanced. For instance a black candidate for president is a big hit among republican conservatives. It just goes to show the message overrides the race of the candidate. That message?

Obamacare is the worse thing since slavery. hmmm.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CruisingRam
post Aug 20 2015, 08:47 PM
Post #4


**********
Elite Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 7,934
Member No.: 927
Joined: July-25-03

From: Hawaii
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Other



1) Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?

Promised by whom? The racists themselves? Basically, GW was so bad even racists voted for Obama. You basically had KKK members in the back yard on MLK day flipping burgers, drinking beer saying "this guy sucks so bad I am voting for the black guy". I think, since 1968 when all the racist left the Democratic party and switched over to the Republican party, they have been becoming more and more racist. I think that the best example of that is how they will bend thier "values" to fit only white people. When a white person points a sniper weapon at the head of a LEO- that is "protecting against a tyrannical government out of control"- when a black person does that (which they actually don't do- in fact, you have to do nothing to be killed by cops in this country while black) - they "shouldn't be breaking the law.". This is, in fact, a place where conservatives could win the entire black vote of the country. When black people were arming themselves in the 60s and 70s against police massacres- the NRA was all about gun control. Why aren't the gun ammosexual-gun fetishists arming all black people to protect themselves against the police? Etc.

The racial healing needs to come in one direction- from conservatives. They are the entrenched racists. I guess we basically need white angry males to just die out and become a minorty first. I live in a minority-majority state and town, and believe me, brown people are a lot more forgiving of white people than vice versa. But it is funny to see someone used to the usual white privilege move here and not have it anymore.


What has happened to racial relations?

White power structures have become more entrenched, radicalized and violent. Look at the recent spate of right wing terrorism since Obama, church burnings etc. Conservative Americans are far, far, far more of a danger to America than ISIS or the Taliban- and have killed more people since 9/11. Dylan Roof etc. Also- the extreme ignorance of racial issues, the confederate flag and the uptick of racism among rednecks in the south can't be helping. Pretty much flying a confederate flag says "I am either completely ignorant and stupid or I am a flaming racist". And folks seem to be pretty proud of their ignorance and racism at the same time. Lying, ignorance and racism seem to be a point of pride among the faux news crowd.

In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?

Biggest difference that I have seen is that folks fear there is a consequence of being racist now and try to hide it by saying things like "I am not racist but....." They complain about "political correctness" because they can't say "nigger" a lot in mixed company anymore. Or other racial slurs.

Basically, being a racist has more negative consequences now than in the last 27 years, so they try to avoid the consequences without actually giving up racism.

This post has been edited by CruisingRam: Aug 20 2015, 08:49 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
akaCG
post Aug 20 2015, 09:51 PM
Post #5


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Sponsor
August 2012

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 4,846
Member No.: 10,787
Joined: November-25-09

Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Aug 20 2015, 04:47 PM) *
...
... I live in a minority-majority state and town, and believe me, brown people are a lot more forgiving of white people than vice versa. ...
...

According to none other than ... hold on to your hat, now, ... the Southern Poverty Law Center, ... there's absolutely no reason to believe you (bolding mine):
QUOTE
...
For years, Hawaiians have avoided talk of race and hate crimes. That doesn't mean the island state doesn't have a problem.
...
With no known hate groups and a much-trumpeted spirit of aloha or tolerance, few people outside Hawaii realize the state has a racism issue. One reason: The tourism-dependent state barely acknowledges hate crimes. ...
...
Hawaii has collected hate crimes data since 2002 (most states began doing so a decade earlier). In the first six years, the state reported only 12 hate crimes, and half of those were in 2006. ... There was anti-white bias in eight of those incidents. But that doesn't begin to reflect the extent of racial rancor directed at non-Native Hawaiians in the Aloha State, especially in schools.
...

Link: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/int...acial-prejudice

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CruisingRam
post Aug 20 2015, 11:37 PM
Post #6


**********
Elite Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 7,934
Member No.: 927
Joined: July-25-03

From: Hawaii
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Other



Yeah akacg- but you know what I get to do when a local cop confronts me? Survive. Keep breathing. Have my day in court. Police are held accountable. It is not about if or when bad things happen- it is the idea of being held accountable. I live, work, play in a very impoverished part of paradise that have all the things the big cities have- meth use, violence etc. However, very few killed by cop killings. So rare, that when a cop does shoot someone- we say "dang, that guy/gal probably was really trying to kill that cop".

Since my kids, white, born in Alaska- go to school here, they have once to complain about bullying or racial problems. There are some problems locally with inter-island ethnicity conflicts- namely, the Micronesian vs every other Polynesian group.

Yeah, there are some pretty strong feelings by some native Hawaiians about "haoles". But it is low level by any metric compared to what a black person has to put up with by the Ferguson police force, for instance. I look like a white narc here, just my ethnicity I am afraid. In five years of working, living and being in the local political scene, I have yet to encounter ANYTHING like the crap we see with the confederate flag wavers in the south. Not even in the same galaxy.

We are not perfect- but hate crimes- yeah. I would rather live in my , um, "racist" location than try to be a black person in the south right now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
akaCG
post Aug 21 2015, 12:51 AM
Post #7


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Sponsor
August 2012

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 4,846
Member No.: 10,787
Joined: November-25-09

Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Aug 20 2015, 07:37 PM) *
...
... I live, work, play in a very impoverished part of paradise that have all the things the big cities have- meth use, violence etc. However, very few killed by cop killings. So rare, that when a cop does shoot someone- we say "dang, that guy/gal probably was really trying to kill that cop".
...

Kindly provide the metric that your fellow Hawaiians (on whose behalf you have chosen to speak, after all) are using when deciding whether an incident involving someone getting shot by a cop is of a type that is "rare" enough to be dismissed as simply a "dang, that guy/gal probably was really trying to kill that cop" type of incident, or whether such an incident is not of a type that is "rare" enough for it to be so dismissed.

Thanks much.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bikerdad
post Aug 21 2015, 09:37 PM
Post #8


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,834
Member No.: 715
Joined: May-8-03

Gender: Male
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



Questions for Debate:
  1. Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?
    Hidden in plain sight. If one watches the national media, one will miss it.

  2. What has happened to racial relations?
    The rabble rousing by the race hustlers, poverty pimps, national media, social justice warriors, racial supremacists has made SOME aspects of race relations worse. They've stalled the improvements that have been accumulating.

  3. In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?
    In my personal experience I've seen even less racism than I saw 7 years ago, and that wasn't much. However, to be fair, most of the change cannot be attributed to changes in race relations (for better or worse), but rather, to geographic changes. In relative terms, my current area proves out the maxim that diversity does NOT improve race relations, it makes it worse, because where I'm at now is far, far less diverse than where I was before.

Above, I reference "accumulating improvements." This article/blog post, which is a personal one from someone other than myself, may provide some insight.

A Spark of Hope

QUOTE
There are times during the musical (MoTown) when various people ask Barry Gordy, Jr., founder of Motown Records, why his sales force is all white. Initially, there is no answer. Then, as the world begins changing during the upheaval of Vietnam and Flower Power, and all the other movements of the 60’s and 70’s, he asks his sales manager the same question. In a subsequent scene, a promoter from down South calls the Motown sales manager and is all but beside himself with anger and disbelief. He wants to know why the sales manager sent a “g** damned n***er” down there. The sales manager, as white as the driven snow, doesn’t miss a beat. He asks the other guy how much money he makes off of Motown records. Then he says that if he wants to keep making that money, he’d better get used to seeing that “g** damned n***er” down there.

When that happened, you could see the audience reaction. You saw a number of folks, mainly white, holding their breaths. After all, we’ve learned, often the hard way, that you just don’t use the N-word. Some of us have been on the end of the lectures that it is all right for blacks to call one another that word but it is never to pass our lips. We shouldn’t even think it. So to hear it on stage, and so soon after Christian Taylor being shot by a white cop, there were those in the audience waiting for the shoe to drop.

It didn’t. I didn’t see or hear one angry mutter, one angry reaction from anyone in the audience. The very nice African-American woman sitting next to me, simply nodded sagely and commented to her companion that she was so glad things had changed for the better. She remembered those days. Things might not be perfect now but they were so much better than they had been and that was what we all needed to remember.


This post has been edited by Bikerdad: Aug 21 2015, 09:40 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
droop224
post Aug 23 2015, 07:16 PM
Post #9


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,833
Member No.: 3,073
Joined: May-12-04

Gender: Male
Politics: Very Liberal
Party affiliation: None



QUOTE
Questions for Debate:
  1. Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?
  2. What has happened to racial relations?
  3. In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?
1. Good question Bikerdad where is the racial healing promised... and who promised it? Well if you figure it out can you get my 40 acres and a mule?? Just another promise broken by the man! mrsparkle.gif

2. In the last 8 years, nothing significant. The last decade or two have been about Gay rights more than anything that is where the country has made the most social progress, culminating in gay marriage being legal in all 50 states. In terms of racial progress.... I guess you could say the fact that White legislatures took down the "racist" flag after the murder of innocent men and women in that church was something that shows a better connection between races.

But Republicans are starting a war on Latinos now, so there you have it..

3. More covert racism and less overt racism. In general most White people don't stand for overt racism, they don't want to be seen as racist. And whether liberal or conservative they are open to the idea of having Black or Hispanic friends, as long as they view them as properly assimilated.

I have always argued that the lack of "power" being part of the definition of racism has destroyed the true meaning of the word. Whites in general have gravitated this simple definition of racism so that it becomes a very low bar to be a racist. Everyone is racist!! Oh you talk derogatory about White people and you are Black or Hispanic... well you are just as racist as the White guy that stops doesn't hire Black or Hispanics for senior positions at his\her company.

Nah not really, but I can't deny the simplified definition of racism would make this true. As I've said before, the simplified way that Whites, in general, view racism would make the slave owner and slave equally racist. But it is what it is, it is a socially defensive mechanism to protect White social conscious. We all want to think that we are good people, no matter what atrocities we commit. The necessities of necessary evil.

I say this because the very nature of how Whites in general view racism, combined with the covert nature of most racism, allows for a easy denial that it exists on any harmful level. So while there are few people of any color that completely deny racism exist, these individuals feel that racism is at such a low level, that it deserves little social action. Ideas like institutionalized racism, white privilege, etc. are just "race baiting" terms without significance to many Whites. One thing I have learned is does not matter how often you can show examples of this and the effect white privilege, institutionalized racism, etc., the covert nature allows for Whites to effectively stick their collective heads in the sand.

To them it is simply a matter of individuals making wrong choices and they need to make better choices. And it is this mindset that allows racial animosity to become a cancer.

https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/14873_Chapter9.pdf I think this link provides an amazing facts based on statistics showing one of many ways Whites have been able to institutionalize racism. Not that this would sway any person's opinion, because as I said their heads are in the sand and you can't make someone "see" what they choose not to.

Once I became a Marine I think I was effectively introduced to what White privilege and institutionalized racism was. I didn't understand what I was seeing to the degree I do now. At that age I never read any books or had an understanding of those concepts. But what I did understand I just labeled hypocrisy. I realized that the Marines were trying to shape Blacks to think their urban culture is "wrong". And it went way past "saggy jeans". The way we wore shirts, hats, shoes, when out of uniform. Our style and mannerisms was unacceptable. And they would outright say we don't want you looking like "a thug!"

How exactly does "a thug" look?... well look at some music videos, look at how young blacks are dressing... that's what dressing like a thug is to Marines and White people in general.

Funny thing about it is though they would convey the idea that as a young Black you weren't on the streets "diddy-bopping", you were a Marine, they were instilling the same "street" and "gang mentality" that I had previously learned. Let see... don't snitch... check... keep problems in house use your chain of command.. check... die for your homie... check! Kill for your homie... CHECK CHECK!! Take pride in your flag and your colors, your group, etc...
















Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Curmudgeon
post Aug 23 2015, 09:31 PM
Post #10


********
I am an unpaid protester!

Sponsor
August 1, 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 1,198
Member No.: 729
Joined: May-14-03

From: Michigan
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?

I was personally not responding to this question because I do not ever recall hearing that electing Barack Obama would lead to racial healing.

I recall a report that Republican leaders met in the aftermath of his election to decide on a course of action that would ensure that Obama could only be a one term President. We are well into his second term as President and they still seem to be working on the same agenda to block his reelection

I find a real irony in the fact that Ben Carson is a black man running as a Republican candidate for President and nothing is being mentioned about his race. Perhaps they just feel that Donald Trump can stand out front for the Party and express all of their racial prejudices.

In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?

Let's go way back... Sometime circa 1951, my parents purchased a home that had been built likely by a "Lumber Baron" or "Wealthy Merchant" at a time when the wealthy built close enough to their businesses that they could walk to work. They paid $12,500 at a time when the minimum wage was circa $1 per hour if your employer was involved in Interstate Commerce. A few days later, they started receiving letters that the neighborhood had been "red-lined" by the Banks and Realtors. Houses in the neighborhood would only be sold to landlords willing to rent to blacks. "This week only, we can offer you $25 cash for your house." It was the best offer they received in the 17 years they lived there. In 1968, while they were on vacation, it was occupied by "The Black Liberation Front" which placed a HQ sign in the front yard. The police advised them to move on with their lives as crime was not being investigated in that neighborhood. They were advised that meetings with black leaders had led to a decision that white policemen would avoid the neighborhood. Minority police officers complained to their union that it was discrimination to send them into the neighborhood without backup. The Police Chief and Mayor cheerfully agreed. When their house burned, the insurance company told them that their deductible was above the $25 market value of a house in that neighborhood and the city charged them for the demolition.

While living in that house, I was a Cub Scout. My den mother's husband was our family doctor. They moved when he was brought up before a licensing board for referring black patients to veterinarians for treatment. He told us that he was going to move back below the Mason-Dixon line where he could do that and keep his license.

A year or two back, we sold a house we had inherited. Taxes were being assessed on an appraised value of something North of $100,000. After a year on the market, we took a cash offer of $19,000. Why? It was a block from the "Red Zone" and that was expected to expand.

Both homes were in Michigan which is hardly in The Deep South...

What has happened to racial relations?

Actually, over a lifetime of nearly seventy years in Michigan, it has greatly improved. On the local scene at least, murders "in The Heights" are not only being investigated, but reported to the newspaper. (Then again, newspaper publication has dropped to 3 days a week and management was transferred to a different city.) I used to be in a workforce that prided itself on the fact that the Sheriff used to take reports of blacks driving in Midland County and provided escorts to the County line for any such impudent (expletives). When I was hired, corporate policy was to hire white males only. By the time I retired, I had a black supervisor.

This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: Aug 24 2015, 01:14 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nighttimer
post Aug 24 2015, 04:16 AM
Post #11


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Sponsor
February 2007

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 4,660
Member No.: 504
Joined: February-16-03

Gender: Undisclosed
Politics: Undisclosed
Party affiliation: Undisclosed



Where is the racial healing promised in the aftermath of the election of Obama?

What promise? Who made the promise? It certainly wasn't Barack Obama. His campaign slogan was "Yes, WE Can," Not "Yes, I Can."

Barring any evidence any such promise was ever made, we can discard as disingenuous and duplicitous it even existed except in Bikerdad's mind. rolleyes.gif

What has happened to racial relations?

That is such a vague, and generalized question it can't be answered in any sort of definitive way, but Chris Rock had a response which seems a pretty good one.

QUOTE
When we talk about race relations in America or racial progress, it's all nonsense. There are no race relations. White people were crazy. Now they're not as crazy. To say that black people have made progress would be to say they deserve what happened to them before.

So, to say Obama is progress is saying that he's the first black person that is qualified to be president. That's not black progress. That's white progress. There's been black people qualified to be president for hundreds of years. If you saw Tina Turner and Ike having a lovely breakfast over there, would you say their relationship's improved? Some people would. But a smart person would go, "Oh, he stopped punching her in the face." It's not up to her. Ike and Tina Turner's relationship has nothing to do with Tina Turner. Nothing. It just doesn't. The question is, you know, my kids are smart, educated, beautiful, polite children. There have been smart, educated, beautiful, polite black children for hundreds of years. The advantage that my children have is that my children are encountering the nicest white people that America has ever produced. Let's hope America keeps producing nicer white people.


Nothing has happened to racial relations except White people aren't as mean now when they were when they would have lynched Chris Rock or me for giving them the side-eye. ermm.gif

So take a bow. White people really are making progress! thumbsup.gif

In your personal experience (i.e. what you've lived and/or seen in person), is there more or less racism than 7 years ago? How about 27 years ago?

Oh, hell, I can do better than that. I can go by a personal experience to an email I received today from someone named "WASP" responding to a blog post I made six years ago.

QUOTE
Niggers will be niggers. Naggers gonna nag. Tell me one prosperous nigger city that isn't crime ridden with deteriorating infrastructure, high drop out rates for high school students, drugs and gangs in the area. Go ahead, name one. You can't. These niggers are uncivilized and inhuman. If niggers blame whites for their f***** up situations, then you tell my why Africa is a s*** hole. The top 10 poorest countries in the world are all in Africa. So, apparently #BlackLivesDon'tMatter. Blacks can't get their s*** together in America or Africa. Why don't you learn some African history, wait, there is none. They currently live in mud and straw huts which they have done for centuries #BlackLivesMatter. Africa is full of aids, poor people and governments that cannot do anything productive on a large scale for a long time. Ever heard of a "bad part of town"? Sure, we all have. But if you stop and think about it, what people mean is "a non-white neighborhood". Name one "bad" all white "bad part of town". Maybe a trailer park?


Sorry about the slam on trailer parks to anyone who has lived in one. Apparently, WASP is not one of the nicer White people Chris Rock talked about. dry.gif



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AuthorMusician
post Aug 24 2015, 04:58 PM
Post #12


**********
Glasses and journalism work for me.

Sponsor
November 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 6,393
Member No.: 297
Joined: December-1-02

From: Blueberry Hill
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



QUOTE(nighttimer @ Aug 24 2015, 12:16 AM) *
Sorry about the slam on trailer parks to anyone who has lived in one. Apparently, WASP is not one of the nicer White people Chris Rock talked about. dry.gif

Very good point about whites getting better at reducing racism and having the responsibility to continue doing so.

WASP is a moron. Our bad part of town in my hometown was a poor district populated mostly by whites with Finnish heritage. Ergo, Finntown. We had two black people: Mrs. Barton, for whom I did odd jobs, and a Chrysler parts guy who liked to be called Whitie. He scrounged up parts for my 1955 Windsor Nassau even after the dealership wasn't required to carry them. Scored an original shop manual through him too.

I should explain that this was in Northern Minnesota in the center of the Mesabi Iron Range. You'd hear several different languages being spoken on Chestnut Street, the main drag. Pretty much everyone was racist about everyone else, so it's a wonder that anyone got along.

South Minneapolis was considered to have a bad part of town near an art school. Mostly white residents, including myself. Gunshots and screams nearly every night. (Sorry if I burst a Minnesota Nice bubble. As everywhere else, way more horses' arses than horses.)

Regarding unconscious racism, at least we're now aware that this is a real thing that pretty much everyone has. The next step is to know when this is happening and to take the appropriate actions.

The wrong step would be to discount racism altogether, since everyone has it. Yeah, well, there's a very nasty creature inside me. I know it and control it, most of the time. When tired and/or in pain, not so much. Should I stop trying just because everyone has a nasty creature within? Never. It wouldn't be sociable or healthy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hobbes
post Aug 24 2015, 09:11 PM
Post #13


Group Icon

**********
No More Mr. Nice Guy!

Group: Committee Members
Posts: 5,335
Member No.: 1,155
Joined: September-8-03

From: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 24 2015, 11:58 AM) *
WASP is a moron.


Correct! But unfortunately a good example of the mindset some still have today. I think a lot less, but still out there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AuthorMusician
post Aug 25 2015, 06:14 PM
Post #14


**********
Glasses and journalism work for me.

Sponsor
November 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 6,393
Member No.: 297
Joined: December-1-02

From: Blueberry Hill
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



QUOTE(Hobbes @ Aug 24 2015, 05:11 PM) *
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Aug 24 2015, 11:58 AM) *
WASP is a moron.


Correct! But unfortunately a good example of the mindset some still have today. I think a lot less, but still out there.

Maybe what prompts people like WASP to advertise their racism is the sense that racism is dying out. Or it might just be a preferred technique to get attention, which is what produces trolls IMO.

Going against racism also attracts attention, as it did in my hometown. Lots of disparaging words on the Range, but I made money by working for Mrs. Barton and kept my car running with the help of Whitie, a couple of gearheads bonding over starters and gaskets.

Those are the kinds of things that work against racism and toward a civilized society in which people cooperate for their own reasons but with the knowledge that working together beats working against each other. The downside was that a good portion of the town rejected me socially. Oh well, still had money for dates and a running car to go out on them. If someone hollered something stupid at me while driving, I'd just crank up my monster Panasonic 8-track and blast back with Hendrix and Zeppelin through an 8-speaker system pumping out 100W per channel.

Ah yes, the good old days of being the pariah but also having independence and freedom. They probably hated that about me the most. Then, after my first long motorcycle jam out to the West Coast, the hometown and culture became very, very small. Leaving it all behind became very, very easy. Circumstances kept me away but for short visits, and now it's as if it had never happened. I remember the good times more than the bad, and as one of my friends told me after HS graduation, they didn't get you, Midnight Rider. Took me a while to figure out what he meant, as it didn't seem like a big deal to me at the time. Looking back, yep. I had managed to avoid a lot of the racist cultural traps, and this was done mostly by not socializing all that much. Just a few good friends rather than a lot of bad ones.

So, tying this into new generations and their attitudes about race, looks to me that cooperation has trumped racism. Get together and work toward something, damn the red necks! The question I have is whether this will become a trend or just another see-saw action with generational conflicts.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Curmudgeon
post Aug 25 2015, 07:36 PM
Post #15


********
I am an unpaid protester!

Sponsor
August 1, 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 1,198
Member No.: 729
Joined: May-14-03

From: Michigan
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



I suspect the younger generation has their share of racists.

Being old and... what was the word I was looking for??? I Googled "old age and" found: "Old Age and Treachery" Lyrics!

I fell asleep pondering racism last night and wondered what it must have been like the first time a young man was handed the weapon and shield that had borne his dead father back from a war and he refused to pick them up...

Racism in this country supposedly dates back to the days of slavery, ended by a war that ended a century and a half ago.

I was surprised to learn recently that the British used to capture Irishmen and sell them in America as slaves. Our teachers never taught us that in High School. Then again, my High School teachers taught the white students that they had a future and the minority students that they were wasting their time remaining there.

At my age; I far more appreciate interacting with the young black man at church who welcomes me wholeheartedly when he sees me than I do with white neighbors who tell me I have no right to be retired...

This post has been edited by Curmudgeon: Aug 25 2015, 07:38 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
droop224
post Aug 28 2015, 01:24 PM
Post #16


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 2,833
Member No.: 3,073
Joined: May-12-04

Gender: Male
Politics: Very Liberal
Party affiliation: None



QUOTE(AuthorMusician)
Regarding unconscious racism, at least we're now aware that this is a real thing that pretty much everyone has. The next step is to know when this is happening and to take the appropriate actions.

The wrong step would be to discount racism altogether, since everyone has it. Yeah, well, there's a very nasty creature inside me. I know it and control it, most of the time. When tired and/or in pain, not so much. Should I stop trying just because everyone has a nasty creature within? Never. It wouldn't be sociable or healthy.


Now AM, I'm not attacking your beliefs, but I need to address them. They speak directly to a point I was trying to make in my first post and I would like to see other address and comment.

The dilution of the concept Racism. Why would we all have a little unconscious racism? Because we all have racial stereotypes floating in our head? We've all heard or used a derogatory racial term in our head or out loud? Is it because many of us feel more comfortable around our own race? Is it because you do a little racial profiling?

I want participants in this debate to think about how you define racism..... think about it. Say to yourself here is what a racist is to me.

Then honestly answer this question that I made a brief comment on earlier.

Is a Black slave who learns to hates Whites, in general, for his enslavement, just as racist as the White slave owner, who enjoys his slaves, but sees them as an inferior humans\superior animals deserving of enslavement?

Ponder this.

See for me the answer is "No". Something clicks in me that says this... can't be true, it just can't. But when I see comments like the one you made AM... and you are a very liberal White male, I believe the way you define racism, the answer would be "Yes."

This is why I am not attacking you AM. This conditioning, programming, whatever, is so pervasive and wide spread that many Blacks would try to get intellectual and go... "for real, if you think about it... we all kind of racist"

And no wonder... look at a dictionary and see how the word is define. It has meanings associated that purposely dilute the meaning of the concept.

The major component of racism that continues to be left out is the part connoting inferiority or superiority. Its so easy to see we are all a little racist when you leave out that component out. Yeah, I've used the term "cracker" when referring to Whites, I'm just as racist as the White that uses the term "Nigger" when referring to Blacks. Case closed. I used a racial term... the other person did, no investigation needed.

That is because we are missing a major component, we have diluted racism..... to name calling!

Minorities will never be ever to remove or get from under the burdens of institutionalized racism, is long as our fellow country men who are White define racism in such a simplistic way. It IS more complex than calling people racial slurs.

Call me a "nigger"... but stop the "War on Drugs" that disproportionately has attacked minority communities and bastardized millions of children creating a cycle of poverty, but has done nothing to stop the flow of drugs.

Call me a "coon"... but stop three strike laws that put people behind bars for life, which further disproportionately affects low wage urban communities where minorities live..

Call me a "spook" ... but stop hiring practices that keeps minorities disproportionately unemployed and in low wage jobs because their names are "shamika" instead of "Cindy", "Tyrone" instead of "Thomas", "Jose" instead of "Jeremy" .

You see these are things that minorities can't change without the help of our countrymen that are White, we simply lack the power.

And I will gladly accept the racial name calling, because those are far less racist than what I believe is going on in many Whites heads when they read this post.

Here is what many of you thinking. The laws and social rules created in America apply to everyone, the fact that certain minority groups are disproportionately affect is not due to the law, but the minority group.

There is no social accountability, there no communal responsibility.

Then the REAL racist thought floats into the subconscious and gets processed by the conscious. Read close. The reason behind the disparity is because of individual choices... these individuals disproportionately belong to certain groups.. so there is something about these groups that disproportionately produce inferior people who disproportionately make inferior choices.

aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh-haaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Did you think it? thumbsup.gif That's how I think racism works!

This post has been edited by droop224: Aug 28 2015, 02:15 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hobbes
post Aug 28 2015, 03:56 PM
Post #17


Group Icon

**********
No More Mr. Nice Guy!

Group: Committee Members
Posts: 5,335
Member No.: 1,155
Joined: September-8-03

From: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



Droop,

Good post, and good points. I do see your distinction, and see, and probably agree, with your main point. I don't have time currently to respond in depth, but here are a couple quick thoughts.

QUOTE
Is a Black slave who learns to hates Whites, in general, for his enslavement, just as racist as the White slave owner, who enjoys his slaves, but sees them as an inferior humans\superior animals deserving of enslavement?


This is a fair point, but I think we run across a slippery slope if we get into a 'which is more racist' mentality. We aren't going to solve racism, here or anywhere, if the argument is over which is more racist. Not that it can't be part of the discussion, it just can't be THE discussion.

QUOTE
That is because we are missing a major component, we have diluted racism..... to name calling!


I think, too often, this is exactly what we have done. What's worse, using the name, or the thought process behind the name? I would think the latter, yet that is seldom what the discussion is.

QUOTE
Here is what many of you thinking. The laws and social rules created in America apply to everyone, the fact that certain minority groups are disproportionately affect is not due to the law, but the minority group.

There is no social accountability, there no communal responsibility.


Again, see and get your point. But accountability and communal responsibility needs to go both ways. This goes back to the point above about not getting anywhere if the discussion is around which is MORE racist. That will just lead to finger pointing back and forth, which I think is pretty much what the dialogue is currently.

One final point...and this where the discussion will either get very good, I think, or revert to the who is more to blame:

QUOTE
Call me a "spook" ... but stop hiring practices that keeps minorities disproportionately unemployed and in low wage jobs because their names are "shamika" instead of "Cindy", "Tyrone" instead of "Thomas", "Jose" instead of "Jeremy" .


I agree that this is an indication of an inherent problem, and unfortunate that it occurs. Yet integrating into the social fabric is part of what everyone needs to do anywhere they are. This applies to the majority as well, although it is easier for them as they are more inherently part of the social fabric. But one way to avoid this problem is .... not to use names that will cause this problem to occur. Names is not the greatest example of the point I am trying to make, as one should be able to name their child how they feel without it having such life altering consequences, but as it was the example presented it is the one I will use. I faced this same dilemma. My daughter's mom is Turkish, and many of the name she wanted to use I didn't like simply because they were too 'foreign sounding', and I thought that would cause problems. We all make adjustments to fit in, most especially to fit into the business circles. Yes, minorities probably need to make more adjustments, but that is simply a truism. The same would be the case if a white person went to...China, and tried to work there. He/she could spend an awful lot of effort talking about how their system wasn't fair, or they could adapt to it and move forward. The Don Quixote approach doesn't usually lead to the desired outcome. Again, we all have to make choices to fit into the business climate. Long hair, tattoos, ear rings...any of these will still have a potential negative impact if one is seeking employment. None of them are an indication of whether or not you can do the job, yet all might be reasons one isn't hired. So, this is why many don't have long hair, tattoos, or ear rings. Even many white people. I will try to do some research on this, but I believe one thing they found was that such names led to people being passed over....even when the hiring managers were also black.

This post has been edited by Hobbes: Aug 28 2015, 05:21 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
akaCG
post Aug 29 2015, 02:29 AM
Post #18


*********
Advanced Senior Contributor

Sponsor
August 2012

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 4,846
Member No.: 10,787
Joined: November-25-09

Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Independent



QUOTE(droop224 @ Aug 28 2015, 09:24 AM) *
...
Call me a "nigger"... but stop the "War on Drugs" that disproportionately has attacked minority communities and bastardized millions of children creating a cycle of poverty, but has done nothing to stop the flow of drugs.
...

Ending the "War on Drugs" is an idea that I join you in supporting.

I would, however, like to draw your attention to the following forgotten/"forgotten" historical facts relating to how the "War on Drugs" got underway:
QUOTE
...
1968. In Harlem, Reverend Oberia Dempsey recruits “volunteers from among retired policemen, guards and others who had been trained and held pistol permits” in order to patrol local streets and break up drug activity, according to the New York Times. In 1968, Dempsey publishes an op-ed in Harlem’s Amsterdam News , an African American newspaper, calling on local blacks to “please join the war on dope.” ...
...
1969. January 8. New York Times reports that an NAACP official in Harlem likens Harlem “to the Wild West” and warns that blacks are resorting to “vigilantism” in an effort to stop drug-related crime.

“A warning was issued yesterday that Harlem could become a community of gunfighters, reminiscent of the Old West, if the law failed to protect black citizens from outlaws.”
...
1970. June. Ebony magazine publishes article titled “Blacks Declare War on Dope.”
...
1970. September-October. MAJOR FEDERAL DRUG WAR LEGISLATION PASSES. Three of the nation’s ten African American lawmakers vote in favor of Nixon’s Comprehensive Drug Abuse and Prevention Act, the first major piece of Federal legislation laying the groundwork for the national war on drugs.
...
1971. March 25. The Congressional Black Caucus secures a closed-door sit-down meeting with President Nixon in the Cabinet Room. During the session, the group demands more action to stop the flow of narcotics into urban neighborhoods. Members acknowledge that they are risking their credibility meeting with Nixon. The session is secretly recorded by the President.

Rep. Charles Rangel, a newly-elected Democrat from New York City and a former Federal prosecutor, urges Nixon to do more to fight drugs without waiting for further congressional action, warning that support might soon build for drug legalization.
...
1971. June 17. In a historic address, President Richard Nixon takes to the airwaves to declare a war on drugs. At times he seems to echo Rep. Rangel’s words from the March meeting.
...
1972. August. Four months after hosting National Black Convention in his city, Gary Indiana Mayor Richard Hatcher requests Federal aid in combating drug crime in his city, according to the Associated Press. Drug crime has left 22 people dead in his community “since January.”
...
1982. February. Congressional Black Caucus releases “Black Leadership Family Plan for the Unity, Survival and Progress of Black People.”

The document, penned by civil rights icon and Washington DC non-voting representative Walter Fauntroy, includes criticism that “diminished drug enforcement increases [black youth] vulnerability to drug abuse.”
...
1986. July 15. Fauntroy testifies before a Committee hearing, describing crack cocaine as “the plague.”
...
1986. October. MAJOR FEDERAL DRUG WAR LEGISLATION PASSES. Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 passes Congress, enacting far tougher Federal mandatory minimum sentencing laws for drug offenders, including those caught with marijuana. Establishes a 100-to-1 disparity in punishments for crack cocaine compared with pow[de]r form of drug.

The measure is supported by the Congressional Black Caucus, though some members want even harsher penalties for drug crimes.
Sixteen of nineteen African American members of the House — including Texas Rep. Mickey Leland and California Rep. Ron Dellums — co-sponsor of the bill.
...
1989. March. Ebony magazine publishes an article describing Rep. Rangel as “The Front-Line General In the War On Drugs.” Rangel talks about the “cancerous epidemic” of drugs hitting black communities in America.

Rangel chastises the administration of President George H.W. Bush for not doing enough to stop drugs. Blasts the White House for moving with “turtle-like speed” to tackle narcotics.
...
1991. The Debate Rages On. Rep. Charles Rangel insists in a televised debate that the drug war should continue in a debate with conservative William F. Buckley Jr., [who] wants drugs legalized.
...

Link: http://prisontime.org/2013/08/12/timeline-...e-war-on-drugs/

As you can see, ...

Black leaders THEN: What do we want? A "War on Drugs"! When do we want it? Now!

Black leaders NOW: What do we want? An end to the racist "War on Drugs"? When do we want it? Now!

QUOTE(droop224 @ Aug 28 2015, 09:24 AM) *
...
Call me a "coon"... but stop three strike laws that put people behind bars for life, which further disproportionately affects low wage urban communities where minorities live.
...

The number of prisoners serving time under "third strike" provisions is too minuscule to have such an effect on said communities. California "houses" about 90% of such prisoners, about 45,000. That translates to less than 50,000 such prisoners nationally. For perspective: the population of Compton, CA is about ... 97,000. (see links at the end of this post.)

QUOTE(droop224 @ Aug 28 2015, 09:24 AM) *
...
Call me a "spook" ... but stop hiring practices that keeps minorities disproportionately unemployed and in low wage jobs because their names are "shamika" instead of "Cindy", "Tyrone" instead of "Thomas", "Jose" instead of "Jeremy".
...

That's a myth. Here's some info on that:
QUOTE
...
... is naming destiny? What kind of signal does a child's name send to the world?

These are the sort of questions that led to "The Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names," a research paper written by a white economist (Steven Levitt, a co-author of this article) and a black economist (Roland G. Fryer Jr., a young Harvard scholar who studies race). The paper acknowledged the social and economic gulf between blacks and whites but paid particular attention to the gulf between black and white culture. Blacks and whites watch different TV shows, for instance; they smoke different cigarettes. And black parents give their children names that are starkly different than white children's.

The names research was based on an extremely large and rich data set: birth-certificate information for every child born in California since 1961. The data covered more than 16 million births. It included standard items like name, gender, race, birthweight, and the parents' marital status, as well as more telling factors: the parents' ZIP code (which indicates socioeconomic status and a neighborhood's racial composition), their means of paying the hospital bill for the birth (again, an economic indicator), and their level of education.
...
What kind of parent is most likely to give a child such a distinctively black name? The data offer a clear answer: an unmarried, low-income, undereducated, teenage mother from a black neighborhood who has a distinctively black name herself. ...
...
By subjecting this data to the economist's favorite magic trick — a statistical wonder known as regression analysis — it's possible to tease out the effect of any one factor (in this case, a person's first name) on her future education, income, and health.

The data show that, on average, a person with a distinctively black name — whether it is a woman named Imani or a man named DeShawn — does have a worse life outcome than a woman named Molly or a man named Jake. But it isn't the fault of his or her name. If two black boys, Jake Williams and DeShawn Williams, are born in the same neighborhood and into the same familial and economic circumstances, they would likely have similar life outcomes. But the kind of parents who name their son Jake don't tend to live in the same neighborhoods or share economic circumstances with the kind of parents who name their son DeShawn. And that's why, on average, a boy named Jake will tend to earn more money and get more education than a boy named DeShawn. DeShawn's name is an indicator—but not a cause—of his life path.
...

Link: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the...ame.single.html

ps:
I hope you don't mind, but I decline the invitation to call you "nigger", "coon", or "spook". And I also hope you don't mind if, in the event I'm ever present when somebody does, I give said miscreant three strikes upside the head. Verbally, I mean. Don't want to go to jail.


Above-promised links:
1. http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Of...TRIKE1d1306.pdf
2.
QUOTE
...
California also leads the country in the most sentencing under the Three-Strikes law, with more than 90% of all 26 U.S. states with Three-Strikes sentencing occurring within the California boundaries. ...
...

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes...al_implications



EDITED TO ADD:

The Slate.com article I linked above, btw, contains a section devoted to a Mr. Robert Lane (living in a housing project in Harlem back in 1958) who decided to bestow upon his latest-at-the-time born son the first name of "Winner", and who 3 years later decided to bestow upon his-then-latest-born-son the first name of ... "Loser". The denouement thereof is well worth reading.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Vanguard
post Aug 29 2015, 02:43 AM
Post #19


******
Senior Contributor

Group: Members
Posts: 325
Member No.: 6,505
Joined: September-16-06

From: So Cal
Gender: Male
Politics: Conservative
Party affiliation: Republican



QUOTE(droop224 @ Aug 28 2015, 01:24 PM) *
Now AM, I'm not attacking your beliefs, but I need to address them. They speak directly to a point I was trying to make in my first post and I would like to see other address and comment.

The dilution of the concept Racism. Why would we all have a little unconscious racism? Because we all have racial stereotypes floating in our head? We've all heard or used a derogatory racial term in our head or out loud? Is it because many of us feel more comfortable around our own race? Is it because you do a little racial profiling?

I want participants in this debate to think about how you define racism..... think about it. Say to yourself here is what a racist is to me.

Then honestly answer this question that I made a brief comment on earlier.

Is a Black slave who learns to hates Whites, in general, for his enslavement, just as racist as the White slave owner, who enjoys his slaves, but sees them as an inferior humans\superior animals deserving of enslavement?

Ponder this.

See for me the answer is "No". Something clicks in me that says this... can't be true, it just can't. But when I see comments like the one you made AM... and you are a very liberal White male, I believe the way you define racism, the answer would be "Yes."

This is why I am not attacking you AM. This conditioning, programming, whatever, is so pervasive and wide spread that many Blacks would try to get intellectual and go... "for real, if you think about it... we all kind of racist"

And no wonder... look at a dictionary and see how the word is define. It has meanings associated that purposely dilute the meaning of the concept.

The major component of racism that continues to be left out is the part connoting inferiority or superiority. Its so easy to see we are all a little racist when you leave out that component out. Yeah, I've used the term "cracker" when referring to Whites, I'm just as racist as the White that uses the term "Nigger" when referring to Blacks. Case closed. I used a racial term... the other person did, no investigation needed.

That is because we are missing a major component, we have diluted racism..... to name calling!

Minorities will never be ever to remove or get from under the burdens of institutionalized racism, is long as our fellow country men who are White define racism in such a simplistic way. It IS more complex than calling people racial slurs.

Call me a "nigger"... but stop the "War on Drugs" that disproportionately has attacked minority communities and bastardized millions of children creating a cycle of poverty, but has done nothing to stop the flow of drugs.

Call me a "coon"... but stop three strike laws that put people behind bars for life, which further disproportionately affects low wage urban communities where minorities live..

Call me a "spook" ... but stop hiring practices that keeps minorities disproportionately unemployed and in low wage jobs because their names are "shamika" instead of "Cindy", "Tyrone" instead of "Thomas", "Jose" instead of "Jeremy" .

You see these are things that minorities can't change without the help of our countrymen that are White, we simply lack the power.

And I will gladly accept the racial name calling, because those are far less racist than what I believe is going on in many Whites heads when they read this post.

Here is what many of you thinking. The laws and social rules created in America apply to everyone, the fact that certain minority groups are disproportionately affect is not due to the law, but the minority group.

There is no social accountability, there no communal responsibility.

Then the REAL racist thought floats into the subconscious and gets processed by the conscious. Read close. The reason behind the disparity is because of individual choices... these individuals disproportionately belong to certain groups.. so there is something about these groups that disproportionately produce inferior people who disproportionately make inferior choices.

aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh-haaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Did you think it? thumbsup.gif That's how I think racism works!

Great post, droop. Probably your best. smile.gif Hobbes and akacg have done a good job at challenging what I consider your political talking points though I believe there is
a much larger point to be made from your commentary. If I understand you correctly, black America remains unreconciled to the abject horror of what their race has
been put through at the hands of white America. It's not so much condescension they feel for whites but rather they experience a significant, festering, psychological
wound borne of dismay that they could have been treated in this way by those who now claim racism is largely behind us. I think I get that more now than I ever have.
These feelings mimic the worst kind of racism though its expression is qualitatively different than the racism whites feel for blacks. One form of the expression is
justifiable outrage whereas the other form of racism coming from the whites still has its basis in condescension. In other words, the belief is still that whites look down
on blacks. They might not behave in the same ways they once did but still believe everything wrong with the blacks is because of their color. I probably wander
too much though I believe the essence of your point is still there.

My problem lies, however, in how much a significant portion of society seems to encourage the "stirring of the pot" as it were by keeping these wounds fresh in the eyes
of black America. How a group of people who have been so maltreated over the last 200+ years can maintain sufficient objectivity when exploring the expression of
racism in 21st America is beyond me. I am a white, Christian, male and my profile is one that is now laden with allegations of "micro-expressions" of racism -
expressions that I do not even know I am expressing! And who largely makes these claims against me? Black America and/or white America who think they have their
finger on the pulse of the rest of us. I liken the dynamic to the stereotypical abused woman who has come out of a long relationship frought with considerable abuse at
the hands of her husband. As a therapist, one of my first concerns after helping her adjust and "mend" would be to also help her understand that not all men are like
her former spouse. Not all men who look like, speak like, sound like, move their bodies like, or even dress like the former spouse are the same abusive kind of man. But
how can the wife fully appreciate that from the years of PTSD she now suffers from? A loud voice from a man can trigger abject fear and she may well shun him and
claim this man is just like her former husband (i.e., a wife beater) when the reality is anything but.

I view the black experience much like this. Jim Crow is not that far removed from us. Millions still remember the double standard. And millions are still nursing a deep
wound that understandably has a hard time healing. But why would I empower them to make the kinds of conclusions they do about my profile regards to my ongoing
unconscious, micro-racism? Black America is the abused wife. The more they claim "unconscious" racism is still alive the more I am convinced much of this reaction is a
bit of "collective PTSD". Now of course there still lies in the hearts of much of white America the vile racism you appeal to though I hardly think it wise to empower the
very people who were abused to make the distinction between expressions of this vile racism and mere happenstance that has nothing to do with racism but rather
experiences that all folks encounter when dealing with their fellow man.

The conundrum is irreconciliable. sad.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AuthorMusician
post Aug 29 2015, 06:01 PM
Post #20


**********
Glasses and journalism work for me.

Sponsor
November 2003

Group: Sponsors
Posts: 6,393
Member No.: 297
Joined: December-1-02

From: Blueberry Hill
Gender: Male
Politics: Liberal
Party affiliation: Democrat



QUOTE(droop224 @ Aug 28 2015, 09:24 AM) *
Then honestly answer this question that I made a brief comment on earlier.

Is a Black slave who learns to hates Whites, in general, for his enslavement, just as racist as the White slave owner, who enjoys his slaves, but sees them as an inferior humans\superior animals deserving of enslavement?

Ponder this.

See for me the answer is "No". Something clicks in me that says this... can't be true, it just can't. But when I see comments like the one you made AM... and you are a very liberal White male, I believe the way you define racism, the answer would be "Yes."

This is why I am not attacking you AM. This conditioning, programming, whatever, is so pervasive and wide spread that many Blacks would try to get intellectual and go... "for real, if you think about it... we all kind of racist"

And no wonder... look at a dictionary and see how the word is define. It has meanings associated that purposely dilute the meaning of the concept.

The major component of racism that continues to be left out is the part connoting inferiority or superiority. Its so easy to see we are all a little racist when you leave out that component out. Yeah, I've used the term "cracker" when referring to Whites, I'm just as racist as the White that uses the term "Nigger" when referring to Blacks. Case closed. I used a racial term... the other person did, no investigation needed.

That is because we are missing a major component, we have diluted racism..... to name calling!

Here's what MWU online has to say about the word in question:

QUOTE
rac·ism noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
plural rac·isms
1
: the assumption that psychocultural traits and capacities are determined by biological race and that races differ decisively from one another which is usually coupled with a belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race and its right to domination over others
2
a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3
: racial prejudice or discrimination : race hatred
Origin of RACISM
probably from French racisme, from race + -isme -ism

First Known Use: 1902 (sense 1)

Related to RACISM
Synonyms:
racialism
more

So it's not racist to say that black people make better athletes, since that's actually admiration for the race having superior physical abilities. Superiority and inferiority flip.

Along these lines, blacks making better musicians, writers, and poets isn't racism either but admiration.

Yet it's still putting all races except blacks down. In that sense, it's all racist.

I was indeed thinking about hiring practices when I referred to all of us having some subconscious racism that impacts our decisions, such as picking a new hire. Evidence has come to light that the police do target blacks over whites too much of the time, and part of this is straight-up overt racism. Go shake down the poorer parts of town in order to get the money for running the government.

I think that anyone who's enslaved has an absolute right to hate the guts of the enslavers. The enslavers have no right to think of people as being universally inferior, other than it's a natural rationalization in support of the practice of slavery. Of course these people must be considered as less than human, otherwise it'd be impossible to enslave them without suffering eventual serious remorse. That's assuming that the enslavers aren't hopeless psychopaths.

As for the use of derogatory terms for people of various races and backgrounds, it's not my major concern. I just decided early on to avoid using these ugly words, sometime in grade school. My father had no such compulsion, so it was a rebellion of sorts that led into many heated arguments while in my teens. The only fair thing about my father's attitude was that he hated everyone: spics, whops, greasers (Latinos), chinks, dagos, pollacks, your usual Jews and Indians, Hindus, hippies, meat heads, pinheads, poopy heads, teachers, college instructors, cops, lawyers, the IRS, his employer, and anyone vaguely associated with business management. Yet this man had a great reputation around town for helping anyone out if he could. Speech and behavior had a big disconnect.

Shortly before my father passed on from a freak auto accident, he came to an understanding that his hatred wasn't hurting anyone but himself. This was due to, mostly, joining AA and buying into the Christian principles expounded therein. He did get a little obnoxious with proselytization, but that was more tolerable for me than his former way. We even had some good discussions about theology and spirit.

If ever there was a soul saved, my father's was it. I have reason to believe he earned his wings as a result, but that's not important. What is important is that I lived in a racist environment, rebelled against it, and once I had the chance, left all that behind. Political correctness was getting a toehold, and the illusion was that racism had become obsolete. It didn't fool me, hell no, racism was going to come back with a vengeance after a brief hiatus. History unfolded and proved me right on that point of racist backlash against liberal political correctness.

Seems that the history is now in the process of repeating, but not quite. It's always a little different due to many of the details changing over time. Today's covert racism seems to be more of a targeting than an effort to keep people down. Who's the least likely to raise a stink? Who doesn't have much political clout? It's gone from master-slave to predator-prey.

Regarding the dilution of the idea of racism by including subconscious racism, looks to me to be an expansion of the concept within what we now know about the brain and consciousness. It isn't merely the use of terms for me, but how I treat people. For example, I was walking through a downtown area in or near DC with a friend from Philie when a group of young black men came walking from the other direction. My Philie friend said we should cross the street, which I ignored. Made eye contact with the youths, said something like "hi" or "howdy," and all that happened were smiles and nods. Philie told me that I had made a really stupid move. I didn't agree; you treat everyone well, and it builds good karma. We had a lot of conflicts on how we perceived others, so eventually we drifted apart.

Bottom line? I don't think Philie ever found true love. It's all that's important to me, the entire point of existence being the seeking of that undetectable, via scientific metrics, energy that bonds a mother to her children, a father to his family, couples to each other, communities, nations, and the species. It can go beyond the species too, encapsulating the entire manifestation that we call reality. Then there's spirit, but that heads into theology, so I'll just let that hang. Besides, I'll have direct experience with that pretty dang soon. Why try to define it ahead of time?

Lydia suggests it's to invent your experiences of the afterlife. Great, so I want my spirit to ride a vintage Indian Chief motorcycle in a world that never rains on me while riding, and all the bugs can't fly. The credit card has no limit and issues no bills. Cars and trucks are careful not to crowd me, and all the diners serve great food. None of the motels have bedbugs, and monkey tush never happens. My version of the Big Rock Candy Mountain.

This post has been edited by AuthorMusician: Aug 29 2015, 06:03 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

  
Go to the top of the page - Simple Version Time is now: April 2nd, 2020 - 05:51 PM
©2002-2010 America's Debate, Inc.  All rights reserved.