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> Why do they hate us?
ikeaboy69
post Sep 15 2003, 02:09 AM
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Not once have I seen any of the News organisations explain why Americans are more and more hated by the rest of the world. I think that would make an interesting story. Although 2 years back Newsweek asked "Why do they hate us?" written by Farheed Zahareji something or other, anyway in my opinion that article didn't tell the whole truth and the explanation the government has presented is so absurd it isn't worth mentioning. Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think? hmmm.gif

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Grendel72
post Sep 15 2003, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE(ikeaboy69 @ Sep 14 2003, 09:09 PM)
Not once have I seen any of the News organisations explain why Americans are more and more hated by the rest of the world. I think that would make an interesting story. Although 2 years back Newsweek asked "Why do they hate us?" written by Farheed Zahareji something or other, anyway in my opinion that article didn't tell the whole truth and the explanation the government has presented is so absurd it isn't worth mentioning. Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think?  hmmm.gif

I honestly don't think it's "Americans" who are hated, it's our government and especially the current administration.
I think playing cowboy and stirring up a hornets nest with no idea of how to handle the outcome, the "with us or agin us" attitude exemplified by things like "freedom fries", and a general lack of respect for other cultures, has made us look bad. However, on an individual basis most "anti-American" foreigners are perfectly OK with us and understand that the actions of the administration don't reflect on all Americans.
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nileriver
post Sep 15 2003, 02:18 AM
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My two cents on the issue is that America is a superpower, we all know that, we have a massive economy, military and sway over foreign affairs from this. I think its just a result of how we use this power or what we do. When you elect a president in the u.s, you are electing a president that will have effects on peoples lives all over the world, not just the u.s. So in light of my opinion, hate or love i guess could come with the title, based on actions. I imagine the same focus has shown itself with all the super powers in history, we just have more rapid and better communication today, and the ability like me as of now to voice opinion and such in these mediums.
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Paladin Elspeth
post Sep 15 2003, 03:10 AM
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When we identify who "they" are, then it's easier for us to figure out why they dislike our country.

It is especially easy for countries that are comprised of a majority of poor people to despise us. On CNN the other day, a journalist was covering how Iraqis are managing to live with high unemployment. Many Iraqis sort through garbage. They pay the trash collectors for the garbage to sift through, where they look for things to repair and sell and possibly things to eat.

Most valuable by far is the garbage that comes from the Americans. They find more wasted food and items that may or may not need to be repaired before they can be sold.

Our greed and wastefulness are factors in the prejudice against Americans in general, and I know I'm also guilty.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: Sep 15 2003, 03:13 AM
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GoAmerica
post Sep 15 2003, 04:04 AM
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Good Question hmmm.gif

It's based on 3 reasons:
  • We support Israel
  • We have troops in Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca
  • It is burned into their brain by brainwashing propaganda by Arab State-Run newspapers and online news
Mostly it's because it is burned into their brains that "the west cannot be trusted" and that the Arab State-run news sources are more accurate than CNN. Also, Osama Bin Laden, who always preaches his garbage, somehow convinces young muslims that we are evil and that we have declared war on Islam

And Grendel, it's not because of our current administration. It's because of Osama convincing the young muslims who don't know better that we are attacking Islam and not just terrorists. Also, we have been attacked by Osama's gang during the Clinton Administration so i don't think you can blame just Bush for the hatred.

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Curmudgeon
post Sep 15 2003, 04:41 AM
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QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 14 2003, 11:10 PM)
When we identify who "they" are, then it's easier for us to figure out why they dislike our country.

It is especially easy for countries that are comprised of a majority of poor people to despise us. On CNN the other day, a journalist was covering how Iraqis are managing to live with high unemployment. Many Iraqis sort through garbage. They pay the trash collectors for the garbage to sift through, where they look for things to repair and sell and possibly things to eat.

Most valuable by far is the garbage that comes from the Americans. They find more wasted food and items that may or may not need to be repaired before they can be sold.

Our greed and wastefulness are factors in the prejudice against Americans in general, and I know I'm also guilty.

This is by no means a new phenomenon.

A high school history teacher told us what it was like to be part of the occupying army in Europe after WWII. "If we were hungry, we'd enter a house, eat the food off the table, and throw the dirty dishes out the window."

In 1964, a college professor was telling my class what it had been like when he was a soldier in S. Korea. A local had been hired as a chauffeur for 10 cents a week to drive the jeep for them. One evening, as he was driving them back from the movies, one of the soldiers in the jeep tossed a partially eaten bag of popcorn from the movies onto the side of the road. The driver stopped, walked back, picked it up and proceeded on. The soldier tried to apologize for littering. "No apology is needed." They were told. "American garbage sells at a premium. This bag of popcorn though, and an orange, is what I have to feed my family tonight."
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CruisingRam
post Sep 15 2003, 08:29 AM
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I have only my own personal life experiance when I was backpacking around the world to fall back on. Now, backpackers from any country are usually a tad counter-conformist and likely to try to "go local" in any country they enter, which is what I of course did. I was always ashamed to see my fellow Americans that were traveling "high" (staying in hotels, doing the tourist thing) and see thier arrogance and nastiness while in anothers country (though my german fellow backpackers would argue that they were more embarrased than I)- but many times I heard an American asking a local to talk english, or in France or other countries talking about how we "saved" them in WW2- Lord how I got tired of hearing this- or the worst was in third world countries, having the US women look down thier noses at the females in other countries for being "subserviant"- which, when you got to know many of them, they certainly were not! I think in many countries our own superiority complex where we are guests have a lot to do with it!

BTW- my travelles were in 1985-86- Reagan was still prez and he was personally hated everywhere, but from what I saw, they were in love with a major portion of american pop culture, especialy fashion, movies and music. It was everywhere, even when it was illegal!

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unabomber
post Sep 15 2003, 09:34 AM
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"they" (as in not americans I assume) hate us for a couple reasons:

1)say you were a 10 year old boy in the gaza strip, now let's say you have a few friends, now say one gets hit by shrapnel from an extrajudicial killing, on that shrpnel it reads "MADE IN USA" would you not like us? (this applies all over the globe where atrocities happened we contributed to (by giving people weapons)

2)overthrowing (or supporting overthrows) of democratically elected and legittimate governments. here are a few examples:
  • 1953, Iran
    the lawfully elected Mossadegh government decided in 1951 to nationalise the Anglo Iranian Oil company. In august 1953, a people’s referendum confirms this with a 99.4 majority. Two weeks later, the CIA trained and controlled officer corps overthrows the government. The previously British oil companies are taken over by a US consortium. The US return the Shah to the country and to power and annihilate the Iranian democracy.
  • 1954, Guatemala
    The CIA organises a coup to overthrow the lawful Arbenz- government, who as part of the land reform wanted to nationalise the US company “United fruit company”. Under the rule of the US installed military dictatorship, 140,000 indios are killed or vanish without trace.
  • 1956, Egypt
    US government and CIA want to destabilise the government of president Nasser, who has become a leader of the block- free (ie non- aligned) countries. in July 1956 they withdraw their loan for the assuan dam, a project central to the development of the Egyptian agriculture. As a consequence, Nasser announces the nationalisation of the suez- canal, in order to use the fees generated by the canal for the Egyptian economy. Britain, France and Israel attack Egypt. At the tail end of the Suez- crisis, the US occupy the leading role which had previously been held by Britain.
  • 1965,Indonesia
    operation “arc light”. The army, whose commanders are controlled by the CIA, is moved against the anti- imperialist president sukarno. When the leftist “popular front”, the strongest supporters of the president, tries to take power from the army leadership, a long planned “counter-strike” is executed. Hundreds of thousands of sukarno followers are murdered. Sukarno is replaced by suharto, a loyal follower of the US.
  • 1970- 73
    in 1970, the candidate of the “unidad popular” Salvador Allende, wins the presidential elections. When the commander of the Chilean army, René Schneider, resists American pressure to stage a military coup, he is killed by a CIA- organised commando. After 3 years of sabotage and de- stabilising activities, schneider’s successor general pinochet, carries out the CIA coup. President Allende is murdered, and the football stadium is turned into a prison for tens of thousands of Allende supporters of the democratic president. Thousands of activists of left wing parties and unionists are chased and killed by death- squads. US foreign minister kissinger comments: “ I cannot see why we should allow a country to become communist, only because it’s population is of unsound mind.”
  • 1981- 85, Nicaragua
    financed mainly by profits from the arms deals with Iran, the US builds and maintains an army in Nicaragua, which consists mainly of members of the army of the previous dictator Somoza. These several thousand “contras” are used in contravention of an explicit direction of US congress. Additional sources of finance for the CIA are drug profits: the US pilots fly weapons in, and on their way back take drugs out. In 1986 the international court in den haag finds that the paramilitary actions of the US were contravening international law.
  • 1983, grenada
    operation urgent fury. The US attack the small central American country, liquidate the Marxist government and install a regime of their choice. Over 400 grenadians and 84 cubans, mostly construction workers, are killed
and more:
Chronicle of the violence of US foreign policy since 1945
A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS
MSN groups: Know your enemy: A Timeline of CIA Atrocities

gee, I wonder why so many people hate the US and our government!?!?!? unsure.gif couldn't be that we keep messing with peoples countries, now could it? nah, must be because were "free" and they simply HATE "freedom" rolleyes.gif

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Mrs. Pigpen
post Sep 15 2003, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE(ikeaboy69 @ Sep 14 2003, 07:09 PM)
Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think?   hmmm.gif

No, American's are not isolating themselves.
What other country in the world is so fixated on the rest of the world's opinion of them? Do you think the average French person cared whether or not Americans liked them? I doubt it. They live their lives, and we obsess over world perception.

I disagree with CruisingRam about American behavior overseas as well. Americans can be rude, but certainly no more than the average European (friends who have traveled to Muslim countries tell me it is worse over there- those were Italian friends). I would say they are friendlier by far, and most definitely more polite.

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GoAmerica
post Sep 15 2003, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 15 2003, 03:29 AM)
I have only my own personal life experiance when I was backpacking around the world to fall back on. Now, backpackers from any country are usually a tad counter-conformist and likely to try to "go local" in any country they enter, which is what I of course did. I was always ashamed to see my fellow Americans that were traveling "high" (staying in hotels, doing the tourist thing) and see thier arrogance and nastiness while in anothers country (though my german fellow backpackers would argue that they were more embarrased than I)- but many times I heard an American asking a local to talk english, or in France or other countries talking about how we "saved" them in WW2- Lord how I got tired of hearing this- or the worst was in third world countries, having the US women look down thier noses at the females in other countries for being "subserviant"- which, when you got to know many of them, they certainly were not! I think in many countries our own superiority complex where we are guests have a lot to do with it!

Some of us can be rude and snotty snobs to our friends overseas but they certainly do not represent a majority of our nation.

I think it is less snobness and more cultural/Foriegn Policy that makes people hate us the most. We have things in our culture such as lots of sex/nudity, which is frowned on by the muslim community and they see it as a corrupter when it tries to squeeze into their society. Take the Saudi Arabia/Barbie doll thing. Saudis: Barbies a "threat to morality" (I know this is from Rense.com, but the article was taken from news.com/au) The Saudis see the Barbie doll as "Jewish Barbie dolls, with their revealing clothes and shameful postures, accessories and tools are a symbol of decadence to the perverted West." God, this looks like something that came from The Onion! In our Foriegn Policy, it's obviosuly Israel and our presense in Saudi Arabia
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Cephus
post Sep 15 2003, 03:27 PM
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We are hated because our government, especially lately, seems to think that we run the planet and can tell every other country what to do. If we don't like you, we invade your country, try to kill your leaders, cause massive destruction, disrespect your beliefs and culture...

Hell, I'd hate us too!
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Billy Jean
post Sep 15 2003, 03:37 PM
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I agree with Cephus. Before WW2, we were an isolationist nation and since we became a "world power" we have become somewhat of a megalomaniac society and have delusions of grandeur that we are the saviours of the world and have a massive superiority complex that offends a majority of the world. Until recently they've kept quiet about it and we've always gotten our way because we "saved the world from fascism" and we continue to hold that over everyone's head. Now since the USSR is pretty much out of the picture, we've created a false sense of security and supremacy which 2 years ago was blown to kingdom come.

No one likes a bully and especially a bully who's oblivious to the fact that we're doing more harm than good. dry.gif

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Hobbes
post Sep 15 2003, 04:44 PM
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My. my, my--it sounds like much of the America hating happens within our own borders crying.gif.

This phenomenon has nothing to do with the current administration--it existed long before then. Yes, even during the Clinton years (unless you think those were just shots of joy the Somalians or Bosnians were firing). As pointed out above, the answer varies depending on who 'they' are. To assume it is only those in the Middle East who feel this way is missing the mark by a long shot.

I think the biggest factor comes primarily from our status as a super-power (and, in recent years, the ONLY superpower). Being put in such a situation will naturally cause dissent--either for things we did, or for things we didn't do. Other countries don't get this treatment, because everyone understands they're not in a position to do anything. So, they get off Scot free (where does this saying come from, anyway?).

I would also have to agree that American's behaviour around the world doesn't help things either. We do tend to be pretty arogant, as a whole. I think a lot of this arrogance comes from our general ignorance of other cultures. Most Americans, even those in governmental positions of power, know next to nothing about other cultures, their values, or their way of life. Yet, as superpower, we are put in the position of making decisions that affect these cultures and their people. So, we are making such decisions often from a position of ignorance of many of their effects. This is bound to lead to a lot of dissent around the world.

Just my 2 cents worth....
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Paladin
post Sep 15 2003, 05:26 PM
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Who is 'they?' If referring to Islamic fundamentalists, this email I received spells out their major gripes. Much of it boils down to a clash of civilizations, and their own religious intolerance.

QUOTE
Sunday November 24, 2002
 
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
 
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers)
who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is
Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]
 
"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve,
fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g.
Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the
plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
 
Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis
are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some
of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others
which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and
warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.
 


EDIT: Sorry about that! smile.gif Read the rest here: Full Text of Bin Laden's letter to America

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Amlord
post Sep 15 2003, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE(Cephus @ Sep 15 2003, 11:27 AM)
We are hated because our government, especially lately, seems to think that we run the planet and can tell every other country what to do.  If we don't like you, we invade your country, try to kill your leaders, cause massive destruction, disrespect your beliefs and culture...

Hell, I'd hate us too!

When did we invade France, Germany, Turkey?

When were the leaders of China and Russia killed?

Let's try to keep some focus on reality.

The biggest problem is one of envy. The US is the big kid on the block. I liken it to sports...

Why is it when someone speaks about the Yankees they are either a huge Yankee fan or absolutely hate the Yankees? Rarely do you see sports fan with a blase attitude towards the Yankees. Why? Because they are without a doubt the most successful team in the Majors. Most people actually have an odd combination of admiration for the Yankees' success and rationalization for why it has happened. They win because the spend more money. Or they win because big name players want to play in NYC. Or because it is a big media town.

Why do people like the Yankees? Because they are winners, because they succeed. Because their success has endured the test of time.

Why do people hate the Yankees? Because they always win. Because they are better than "My Team". Because they continue to win. Because "My Team" looks bad in comparison.

The United States is the New York Yankees of the world.

If you look around, most people have a strong opinion one way or the other of the United States. Most people in other countries admire our success while at the same time rue their own lack of success (in comparison). The reasons are the same as the Yankees. But in order to "beat" the United States, to surpass or even catch up with our success, you can't just beat us "on the field". You have to knock us down

The US surpasses other countries on certain levels, but is certainly lacking in other areas. Instead of celebrating their own successes, other countries tend to focus on the negatives of the US or their own country's comparitive lack of success in the areas in which we excel. Similar to the Yankees, they rationalize why the US is so successful : They are successful because they bully others. They are so powerful because they hold others back.

It is hard to be both successful AND well-liked. The US and the Yankees are very good examples of this.

(I hate the Yankees...does that make me a hypocrite? hmmm.gif )
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Julian
post Sep 15 2003, 07:05 PM
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With some exaggeration for effect, (I'll leave you to guess how much mrsparkle.gif ) I'd say that in general, people hate America more than anything else because when America and Americans aren't ignoring the rest of the world, or behaving as if their crude pencil-sketch perceptions of other nations and peoples are hard-and-fast rules, their engagement with the rest of the world is always about America.

American news organisations and government agencies seem to be forever asking after "what do you think of America", which might indicate to outsiders that America's only concern is America.

Now, nobody blames Americans for putting America first. Everyone puts their own countries' concerns above those of elsewhere, just as individuals primarily look after number one.

However, like states, individuals sometimes find themselves in circumstances where the interests of other people are paramount, leading to them having to refrain from doing something, or to do some things they wouldn't otherwise do.

In individuals, popularity doesn't come from always putting the concerns of other before oneself - that more often leads to invisibility and contempt. Rather, it comes from willingly helping out when needed without imposing prior conditions that must be agreed to before help will be extended. It is enough to act in good faith, assuming that at some point a good turn will be repaid. Special affection will come from help that is extended when there is no benefit to the helper, or even when it causes them some pain or inconvenience.

Any individual who clearly has the resources to help, but refuses to do so unless it is on their terms, i.e. immediately to their advantage, and to the long term disadvantage of those being helped, and/or refuses to help in areas of activity where they have no personal interest, can expect to be admired (for the way they have gained such an advantage), envied (by those who do not have such an advantage), and actively hated (for not helping when there is a perceived need for help, real or imagined, or for putting obstacles - again, real or imagined - in the way of those who would wish to gain such success, since the wealthy and powerful individual believes that wealth is ultimately a zero sum game, and they are terrified that they may "lose").

A state that behaves in the same way can expected to be admired, envied and hated just the same as an individual could. As above, so below. States are only organised collections of individuals, after all.

An real-world example: the WTO talks in Cancun have broken down because, ultimately, the USA and EU refused to remove the agricultural subsidies that are causing economic, and real physical, hardship in the Third World. The US refused to contemplate subsidy removal, as it would cause their own farmers some hardship. The EU refused to remove their subsidies unless the USA did as well, to avoid putting their own farmers in the same position that Third World farmers are already in. Consequently the whole WTO is at risk because the rich world doesn't want to help the poor world unless they can get richer doing it.

In a microcosm of US/EU opinion, only one person has had an opinion on the thread I posted about it over the past three or four days, yet there are active threads about children's names, song lyrics and the arrest of a superannuated dopehead comedian who isn't funny any more. I'm not saying that these are issues that are unimportant, just that when given the opportunity to constructively discuss the problems of the people that "hate" Americans (surely the best way to stop them hating you), most Americans prefer to stick to domestic issues (literally in some cases).

EDITED TO ADD:
I think a sports analogy is a useful one, but the comparison is not that of a baseball team being prime within a league of peers. It is of a team being "in a league of it's own". Nobody else can really beat it with any consistency. Certain areas of the game amy show statistical superiority in some areas, but nobody can beat it in a full game (not without cheating, anyway). If a team ALWAYS wins, even fans get bored, and fans of opposing teams will start to suggest that the uber-team needs to be disbanded or handicapped in some way, in just the same way that no sane flyweight boxer would get into a ring with a Tyson or an Ali. In a real sports analogy, the team would eventually get flabby through not having any serious challenges, and would start to lose. Other good teams might start to consolidate, so that maybe they would stand a chance of winning outright, rather than losing gracefully (the EU, anyone?).
If other "teams" want America to "lose", then it's because America has invented a game where someone has to win and everyone else has to lose, refuese to play anyone else at their own game unless they think they'll win, and where there is no pride to be taken from a good defeat. Americans don't seem to want to play because playing is fun, only because winning is fun.

(Like I told you, I am using hyperbole, but the points are all real if perception really is reality.)

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post Sep 15 2003, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE
When did we invade France, Germany, Turkey?


We freed France from the Nazis and invaded and occupied West Germany up until 1989. I think they can construe that as American domination. Now, don't get me wrong, Hitler HAD to be defeated, his ideology was pure evil. But power corrupts and American foreign doctrine since ww2 has deviated way off of what this country was conceptualized as.

QUOTE
The biggest problem is one of envy. The US is the big kid on the block. I liken it to sports...


THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM!!! down.gif The whole "American Cowboy", "My gun is bigger than yours" and "the law of the jungle" mentality is what's causing alot of this!

"I'm the big kid on the block and I'm gonna kick your butt!" LISTEN to how that sounds! This isn't the school yard or the football field where you may get bruised up and at the most you're ego gets damaged. We're talking WW3 and nuclear annihilation! mad.gif Terrorist attacks that overshadow 9\11 and a downward spiral and decline of the American way of life... FREEDOM. sad.gif

God, this world should be a matriarchal society and get the testosterone away from "the button" before we all go to hell.

This post has been edited by Billy Jean: Sep 15 2003, 07:28 PM
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CruisingRam
post Sep 15 2003, 07:50 PM
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To boil it down- America is behaving like a big adolecent bully with situational morals, and we are hated for it, and rightly so. Time to get some common sense leaders in office- we really need a regime change!
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cyclone
post Sep 15 2003, 08:08 PM
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A matriarchial society? Brilliant idea—I've never known a woman to act irrationally, or impulsively… whistling.gif . In any case, I think it's fair to consider that it is the proper role of a nation to act in its best interests, and those of its citizens, whenever possible. When those interests coincide with the interests of other nations, all the better. When they don't, tough cookies. I'm not sure how "being liked" should be part of any kind of foreign policy.

This post has been edited by cyclone: Sep 15 2003, 08:09 PM
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Julian
post Sep 15 2003, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE(cyclone @ Sep 15 2003, 08:08 PM)
When those interests coincide with the interests of other nations, all the better. When they don't, tough cookies. I'm not sure how "being liked" should be part of any kind of foreign policy.

Good. Should I look forward to the absence of "why do they hate us" threads in future, then?
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