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> Equality in America?
IWC.JASONASHLEY6...
post Nov 8 2002, 08:00 PM
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Why do Mexicans, Jaimacans,Haitians, and any other immigrant group come to America expecting to live a dream they are not entitled to live? African-Americans helped build this nation and we still don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream...How do you feel?
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Jaime
post Nov 8 2002, 08:06 PM
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Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?
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IWC.JASONASHLEY6...
post Nov 8 2002, 08:16 PM
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Is it Illegal to answer your own post? tongue.gif


America was never set up to carry so many different cultures. The founders who set up this nation, set up this nation in the mindframe to where it would benefit them and their descendants. Till this day the people who were meant to be on top remain on top. There will never be an equal playing field for any race in America. No matter how hard America tries to reform and push for equality it will never happen because America's foundation was set up on this inequality. The so-called melting pot or salad bowl does not exsist. America was based off of free labor as it still thrives off of free labor today. Immigrants come here and work jobs that pay very little, thousands of black men work the chain-gangs in Alabama still.

With the influx of immigrants America is shutting the gates. There are only certain groups they want here now. I say "they" because I am a Neo-Nubian American man who could care less about who comes here. I am just suprised so many people come here yearly to live this dream that people born here don't even live. There is more to the dream than freedom. We are free to do whatever, but whatever is not free to do...Meaning there has to be a price you pay to gain that "whatever" we want. The means are not as accesible to people who contain melanin. Is Melanin the price we must pay in order to live this American dream? I dunno, maybe we should ask Colin Powell....
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IWC.JASONASHLEY6...
post Nov 8 2002, 08:28 PM
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Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?



1. Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

2. Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it? Does the question on a questionnare ask you if you are Sweden-American or German-American? No it just puts you in a class altogether seperating white from black...You are white. That is America speaking for you. I am entitled to speak for a whole race becuase it is self evident that this is going on in America. We have learned to live with the discomfort. Not truely living this so-called dream.

3. The American dream...The American dream includes the ownership of property...This ensures the survival of you and you descendants because you have the "means" to survive. These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then...We did not recieve the means to be able to live the ownership part of the "Dream"... The American dream includes the life, liberty and happiness too. We are entitled to live the life part of our dreams while fighting for or liberty and happiness at the same time...Tell me more about the American dream you live....Jaime.....
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Jaime
post Nov 8 2002, 09:50 PM
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QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

I have a follow up question, then. If these people are immigrants to America and become citizens through legal means, are they not entitled to the rights and dreams of all Americans?

QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it?


Let me see if I understand you right. Are you saying America is speaking for whole groups of people because we have systems set up to help specifically defined groups? Or are you saying skin color speaks louder than anything else in which we may try to categorize ourselves?

QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then


Now, I'm not the best Civil War historian, but my understanding of the 40 acres idea is that it never made it any farther than the proposal phase. Perhaps we have some Civil War/Reconstruction experts out there that can help me on this, but I think that it was General Sherman who proposed the idea. I do not think it was ever enacted as a law by Congress, Executive Order or any state authority.

I whole-heartedly agree that property ownership is essential to defining the American Dream, particularly if you look at it from the perspective of our forefathers.

I'll hold off on defining my "American Dream" because I'm not sure if I even have one. I need to think about that one some. But if anyone else would like to share theirs, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Darcaine
post Nov 9 2002, 12:57 AM
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QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ Nov 8 2002, 03:28 PM)
Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?



1. Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

2. Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it? Does the question on a questionnare ask you if you are Sweden-American or German-American? No it just puts you in a class altogether seperating white from black...You are white. That is America speaking for you. I am entitled to speak for a whole race becuase it is self evident that this is going on in America. We have learned to live with the discomfort. Not truely living this so-called dream.

3. The American dream...The American dream includes the ownership of property...This ensures the survival of you and you descendants because you have the "means" to survive. These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then...We did not recieve the means to be able to live the ownership part of the "Dream"... The American dream includes the life, liberty and happiness too. We are entitled to live the life part of our dreams while fighting for or liberty and happiness at the same time...Tell me more about the American dream you live....Jaime.....

I would take issue with your post. I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood. They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here. They own property, pay taxes and raise a family. I think that WE are living the American dream. I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change. IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America. You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America. The data is there. Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine
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Madtown
post Nov 9 2002, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 8 2002, 07:57 PM)
...
.  I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood.  They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here.  They own property, pay taxes and raise a family.  I think that WE are living the American dream.  I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change.  IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America.  You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America.  The data is there.  Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine

Yes Darceine, we can all point to the one or two black families in our neighborhood and say, "see, they can make it if they want to."

I agree that the breakdown of the Afro-Amer. family is a huge part of the problem. NOW, we must ask ourselves Why. Why, is the Afro-Amer father not with his family as is often the case?

MT
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turnea
post Nov 10 2002, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ Nov 8 2002, 02:16 PM)
There will never be an equal playing field for any race in America. No matter how hard America tries to reform and push for equality it will never happen because America's foundation was set up on this inequality. The so-called melting pot or salad bowl does not exsist. America was based off of free labor as it still thrives off of free labor today. Immigrants come here and work jobs that pay very little, thousands of black men work the chain-gangs in Alabama still.


The real question here is what is it about the setup of America that prevents non-whites from suceeding. Is it in the Constitution? If it's not on the books it can be changed, period.

Free Labor?
I'm a black man living in Alabama, those guys on the chain gangs didn't get there just for being black, trust me, most of them earned it well. dry.gif Exaggeration is not going to help anyone these days. African-Americans are no longer slaves in this country, that's just reality.

A defeatist attidude won't help anyone, least of all African-Americans. It is denying reality to say that America has not progressed concerning our race, we can move further if we want to sleep.gif
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Alan Wood
post Nov 10 2002, 12:53 AM
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Down here in OZ we have the same sort of cosmopolitan society as America but our legal immigrants are mainly Asians.

They work hard, ask little and achieve. Very few white Aussies condem them for their success.
Unfortunately they also bring the worst of their cultures with them.
Asian sects war with each other, drug cartels etc.
We have enough of our own to deal with.

The price honest immigrants pay is that of living down the actions of a rogue few.
The price white Australians pay is the dilution of our culture.
But thats multiculturalism in all its glory.

Regards..Alan
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Madtown
post Nov 10 2002, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 9 2002, 07:02 PM)
The real question here is what is it about the setup of America that prevents non-whites from suceeding. Is it in the Constitution? If it's not on the books it can be changed, period.

. It is denying reality to say that America has not progressed concerning our race, we can move further if we want to  sleep.gif

I don't quite understand turnea. Are you saying there is some sort of set up that prevents non whites from suceeding or are you saying that they can be successful if they want to?

It's true that there are many single parent Afro-Amer families. What do you attribute this to?

MT
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turnea
post Nov 10 2002, 03:48 PM
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MT: I'm saying that there is nothing in writing stopping African-Americans from suceeding. So, we can improve our status if we want to.
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Madtown
post Nov 10 2002, 04:13 PM
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turnea- Do you agree that it can be much harder for Afro-Amer. than for White Americans to improve their status?
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turnea
post Nov 10 2002, 04:20 PM
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Certainly, but the problems are due more to poverty and drug use than racism. Rascism is still a problem, but it is no longer the deciding factor.
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Darcaine
post Nov 10 2002, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(Madtown @ Nov 9 2002, 07:07 AM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 8 2002, 07:57 PM)
...
.  I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood.  They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here.  They own property, pay taxes and raise a family.  I think that WE are living the American dream.  I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change.  IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America.  You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America.  The data is there.  Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine

Yes Darceine, we can all point to the one or two black families in our neighborhood and say, "see, they can make it if they want to."

I agree that the breakdown of the Afro-Amer. family is a huge part of the problem. NOW, we must ask ourselves Why. Why, is the Afro-Amer father not with his family as is often the case?

MT

MT..My neiborhood looks like the damn UN! My wife is hispanic and I DO speak Spanish...well somewhat. The point is that the VALUES of any given society or neighborhood will dictate how you will do in America. The values of the DNC have kept the poor minorities in the poor. The illiteracy rate among blacks is staggering and the DNC has let this happen. Jackson and Sharpton have nothing to give the communities they are supposed to be helping...unless teaching extortion is a good lesson? It's time to stand up for right and wrong. Too many of todays youth speak with so much "ghetto slang" they will never get a good job. Big, aweful looking tattoos will ensure you flipping burgers. These things need to be told and not taken a racist statements.

Darcaine
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Madtown
post Nov 10 2002, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 10 2002, 01:12 PM)
]
.  The values of the DNC have kept the poor minorities in the poor.  The illiteracy rate among blacks is staggering and the DNC has let this happen.  Jackson and Sharpton have nothing to give the communities they are supposed to be helping...unless teaching extortion is a good lesson?  It's time to stand up for right and wrong.  Too many of todays youth speak with so much "ghetto slang" they will never get a good job.  Big, aweful looking tattoos will ensure you flipping burgers.  These things need to be told and not taken a racist statements.

Darcaine

Ok, explain to me how the DNC is keeping minorities poor? huh.gif I know I'm in for it now! smile.gif

Lots of kids, my own grandsons included, have those awful tattoos. I hate em!

The answer to illiteracy is Education, Education, Education, which in turn will help minorities get better jobs, which will help wipe out poverty. Education has to start with the very young as in programs like Head Start.

I still maintain some people need a boost.
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Jaime
post Nov 10 2002, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE(Madtown @ Nov 10 2002, 04:07 PM)
The answer to illiteracy  is Education, Education, Education, which in turn will help minorities get better jobs, which will help wipe out poverty. Education has to start with the very young as in programs like Head Start.

I agree with your assessment of the problem, MT. I disagree with your suggested solution (although I'll guess you don't offer Head Start as the only solution).

I think programs like Head Start are a crutch. It is more a system of daycare than education. Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years. No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization.

We need to find incentives for people to want to raise the children they have in a responsible manner. That won't solve everything, but I see it being helpful.
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kimpossible
post Nov 11 2002, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 10 2002, 05:48 PM)
Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years.  No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization. 

I agree that something needs to be done, but I dont think that minorities need to "keep their own money." Are you referring to taxes with this? If you are, I dont think that letting poor families keeping their tax money is the answer. The fact is, our minimum wage hasnt been risen for five years, and the cost of living keeps going up. There needs to be a wage adjustment and more assistance for families, possibly giving more maternal leave (although I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be "maternal").

Also, as far as education goes there is a disproportionate amount of money going into high income neighborhoods. If all public schools were given funding depending on the size of the school, as opposed to the tax bracket of the neighborhood, education would improve dramatically. All public schools are seriously underfunded, but more so in inner cities.
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Darcaine
post Nov 11 2002, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE(kimpossible @ Nov 10 2002, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 10 2002, 05:48 PM)
Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years.  No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization.  

I agree that something needs to be done, but I dont think that minorities need to "keep their own money." Are you referring to taxes with this? If you are, I dont think that letting poor families keeping their tax money is the answer. The fact is, our minimum wage hasnt been risen for five years, and the cost of living keeps going up. There needs to be a wage adjustment and more assistance for families, possibly giving more maternal leave (although I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be "maternal").

Also, as far as education goes there is a disproportionate amount of money going into high income neighborhoods. If all public schools were given funding depending on the size of the school, as opposed to the tax bracket of the neighborhood, education would improve dramatically. All public schools are seriously underfunded, but more so in inner cities.

Unfortunately this is NOT the problem. This is a myth that inner city schools are under funded. The private schools do with half the money an outstanding job. Money is NOT the problem...it's the curriculum. New school books are the worst things I have ever seen. Teachers coming out of schools ill prepared to teach...I am having some issues with some of them now and I sincerely believe they graduated from college from a need of teachers only. The BIGGEST thing is family. Not having a mom and dad is the worst thing ever to happen to the black community. Kids growing up with NO guidence or rules. You get these kids in a classroom and we expect miracles from the teachers. Sorry, teachers are not there to raise you kids..if you have em you better damn well take care of them. One of the better things Bush has done is PROMOTE family.

Darcaine
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IWC.JASONASHLEY6...
post Nov 11 2002, 07:32 AM
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I agree with you Darcaine. Many Afro-Am. families are ran by a single parent. Think of this though. They still recieve guidance. The problem is where that single parent has to live. The neighborhoods most single parent kids grow up in help mold them. The schools and everything surrounding them. I guess what I am trying to say is no one sends their kids to be raised by a teacher. How dare you say that? Kids learn from guidance and teachers provide guidance.



[QUOTE]I would take issue with your post. I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood. They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here. They own property, pay taxes and raise a family. I think that WE are living the American dream. I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change. IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America. You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America. The data is there. Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.


The break down of the black family is what ails black america? How silly of you. There are as many black families that have both parents in the house that don't live this dream you claim you and your neighbors live...We as black americans probably should get away from non-leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton and maybe focus our attention on Louis Farrakahn...You are only a good black leader if you are hated by many...Right....
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IWC.JASONASHLEY6...
post Nov 11 2002, 07:51 AM
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What really ails black america is the way we have no sense of direction and the set up of this nation will not let us rise to this equality. There is nothing in writing that says this because we were not suppose to even be here. Yeah yeah blacks sold blacks into slavery, but does that make it okay? Is that the new Caucasion way of making slavery not seem too wrong? I mean they found many ways to make it right. Why didn't they find a way to correct themselves after they decided they were wrong? Why not correct your mistake? There are many blacks such as the ones you mention Darcaine that think they are living the dream until they visit an unfamiliar place in the south and see for themselves that no matter how Americanized and civilized or whatever you would call it, they are still black and the only thing that makes them different from the blacks with these ugly tattoos and ghetto slang as you all say is the fact that they talk a little like them (whites) and they have the universal friend maker(money).

Hate amongst each other in the black community ails us also. The blacks who do make it are hated by the blacks who don't make it in America. The ones who make it are seen as sale outs because when they lived in the streets of black america they spoke our slang and lived in those single parent homes but when they dug themselves out of the hell whole they changed. They turned into an African-American...Smart articulate and well spoken and never returned to those streets that raised them. Is this bad? Should there be a hate towards them? I don't think so but many people do.

There are many black millionares, but do any of them spend their money wisely? When I say wisely I mean who do they give their money to? They give it right back to white america. That is the set up I am talking about. No matter what you do all the money runs right back through white america because white america owns everything. How can there be equality when we are at the feet of the master? happy.gif
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