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[johnlocke]

I found this story on Drudge and thought it'd be a good conversation piece. I have never liked the french government and always felt they had used some suspicious tactics and reasoning for not supporting the ouster of Saddam Hussein, but now the proof has been found.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...94014-7323r.htm

Al-Mada claims they have the papers and names. Tsk tsk Chirac.

Letting millions suffer from murder, gassings, rape and torture just so you could subsidize your socialism is atrocious.

My questions to everyone here are:

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

[Bikerdad]

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion?

Not good for those who used French opposition as their stalking horse. These revelations, especially if the French don't do a major mea culpa with a lot of French politico's falling on their swords, are going to seriously prolong the current coolness of the American publics attitude towards the French.

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Simple: if the hari-kari doesn't start within a week, the French ability to bid on Iraq reconstruction contracts is history. The US government will make a point of their duplicity at every opportunity, ESPECIALLY with our European allies who supported the war, and France's dreams of leading the EU will also be history, and its economic relationship with America will take a nasty long term hit.

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

I agree with the public apology, not with the UN fines. The UN's behavior has been just as crooked, why should the UN be rewarded? Whatever monetary punishment comes to pass should be awarded to the people of Iraq, they're the one's who were most harmed by this.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

This has just hit, French corruption scandals historically take a while to build. If, in two or three weeks, the "French street" gives Chirac's government a pass on this, then it will be a LONGGGG time before the American public considers the French people honorable. That's an important point, because most Americans have been reserving most of their ire for Chirac & Co., giving the French people the benefit of the doubt. This is a crucial point in Franco-American relations, and the ball is completely in France's court.

As for Hollywood, most of them will simply retreat behind the screen that "what the French decide to do about this is their business, not ours." HollyLib's #1 priority will be distancing themselves and NOT drawing attention to it. Indignant anger merely serves to bring attention back to how foolish THEY look having pointed to the French as paragons of virtue for their "principled and moral stand against American oil-lust."

[NiteGuy]

I found this story on Drudge and thought it'd be a good conversation piece. I have never liked the french government and always felt they had used some suspicious tactics and reasoning for not supporting the ouster of Saddam Hussein, but now the proof has been found.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...94014-7323r.htm

Al-Mada claims they have the papers and names. Tsk tsk Chirac.

Letting millions suffer from murder, gassings, rape and torture just so you could subsidize your socialism is atrocious.

My questions to everyone here are:

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

Hard to say what the reaction will be here. After all the story just broke today, and from the link you provided, there is scant information.

Let's see who knew what, before we start demanding Chirac's head. After all, he may have been going with the recommendations of officials that had been bribed, but did not know the bribery was taking place. It's hard to say at this time.

If the story is true, then everyone involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of whatever laws are available.

As far as my feelings towards the French go, it doesn't really change my attitude. There are still plenty of people here who disagreed with the war as well, and I think that we can all agree that it's doubtful that the entire French population was being bribed.

In terms of what the American government should do? Besides a strong condemnation from our government, I'm not sure there is much else we can do. We don't control the courts in France, Austria, Turkey, et.al. Punishment of officials in those countries will depend on their laws, not ours.

[Christopher]

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

Depends on the validity. If true and up to the higher levels of the French government I feel we should take at look at some economic type penalties. I really have no strong feelings for much of old europe. They have done little of anything for the last hundred years except kill each other.

Who cares about the UN. Be a much better world with it disbanded. Or at the very least off our shores. So fines from them are worse than useless. Although probably mighty amusing to see their reaction.

Europeans have always been quich to trash us. Who cares they are history. The EU is going to be a disaster. Socialist country vs. socialist country. Never be successful. any place that has laws against people working voluntary overtime is doomed to fail.

[Cube Jockey]

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

I think that the majority of American people will go on hating the french just because they can, this will only serve to reinforce that hatred. Everyone is always looking for a reason to hate the French.

I personally like the French, and I really enjoyed visiting Paris and Versailles recently. You can't fault the French for being nationalistic because we are just as guilty with the recent spread of patriotism. You also can't fault them for being angry about American tourists... how many people in America get ticked when those darn foreigners don't speak English well?

You can't fault them for greed over oil money when our government is guilty of the same thing.

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

Why should the French be scolded for their selfish actions behind the scenes in the Iraqi war? Aren't we (Haliburton, etc) profiting far more from this war than the French ever did or could have hoped to? Not only that but we have conveniently installed a Democracy that will be friendly towards the US. That'll probably help in future oil price negotiations and contract work I'm sure.

Accusing the French of wrong doing is really the pot calling the kettle black. Let's accuse the French of financial motivations while our government is giving Haliburton no-bid contracts for rebuilding the Iraqi oil infrastructure and charging the Army in excess of $2 a gallon when you could literally sink a well next to the base and strike crude oil.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

I'd like to remind you that protests were worldwide with several major demonstrations in several US cities (Seattle, San Francisco, Portland, LA, New York, Washington DC, Dallas to name a few) and in many foreign countries as well including the UK, France, Spain, Germany, Australia, et al... not just in France. The denouncement of this war was a fairly worldwide occurrence, including the countries of our allies.

To call for the removal of Chirac over this would be extremely hypocritical. I'll support the removal of Chirac for his greed over oil money as soon as Bush makes a public apology and steps down for his greed.

[Weegie]

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

I wasnt aware that the US exported Oil to France. If not then its highly unlikely that the Worlds other Oil producers are going to impose sanctions because the US tells them to

[johnlocke]

I didn't say anything about what will happen, nor come remotely close about what was likely to happen. I just stated my opinion.

I'm an American. I don't expect the rest of the world to do what we tell them, nor do I expect the US to do anything that they tell us to do.

[Julian]

The "Top Officials" in the body of the report do not amount to evidence that "Saddam Bribed Chirac" as the headline states.

Plus, wev'e had apparently authentic papers come out of Iraq before, including ones that "proved" Iraq had bought uranium ore from Niger, which, on investigation, proved to be fake.

So rather than just assume this is correct information because it conforms our prejudices, let's wait and see, shall we?

The right gets sniffy enough when opponents take as gospel every new report on the absence of WMDs or the confecting and selectivity of intelligence that was used to justify the US-led Iraqi invasion. Maybe it's time they should begin practising what they preach, and give the French government the benefit of the doubt until their guilt is proven.

[Artemise]

Wasnt Iraq still under oil for food sanctions before US invasion?

A senior Bush administration official said Washington was aware of the reports but refused further comment.

Hmmn, sort of a non-response to a potentially inflammitory allegation, you would have thought we'd jump all over this.

From reading the article it is uncertain whether the bribes/papers were just 'offered' or were they 'accepted' and carried out. To me there was a small window of time to cary out any potential bribes.

Ill await further details.

[slowtime9]

For me, I will wait and see what all this will do. But I agree with the Iraqi ruling council, an investigation that they conduct on their own needs to be done and it is wise for the time that the administration does not comment or get involved openly. The last thing the administration needs to do is start pointing a finger over an accusation, better to walk the high road on this one for now.

[Titus]

...give the French government the benefit of the doubt until their guilt is proven.

True. But where there's smoke there's fire.

For instance, there's no evidence of France brokering sales of rocket propellant base to Iraq.... or is there?

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/iraqwar/s...,178490,00.html

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/chinsese.htm

Anyone smell croissants burning?

I say the UN should get their teeth back and level serious punishment on France for such actions. As for what I think of them... nothing has been right since De Gaulle left. I still wanna see Paris though...

[GoAmerica]

My questions to everyone here are:

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

THe political ramifacations would be that there will be no trust in the UN seeing as some of those included in the list in the link have voting rights in the Security Council and other committees. As for the French, since this war began and before, i had a negative opinion against France and now i have a hatred towards France because it betrayed the UN Security Council and violated sanctions

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Bush should see to it that France get socked with heavy economic penalties plus whatever the consequence is for violating UN sanctions

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics?

Because Chirac has obviously encouraged the protests against Bush and the people of France don't seem to pay attention to the fact that something dirty is going on under their noses.

[HeatherRob]

The French are an emasculated people. Seems they don't even believe in God anymore. Their decaying old guard government has nothing new or interesting to offer the world. Their colonial wreckage is strewn all over the world from Vietnam to Algeria. Chirac and his crowd must accept that they are a third rate power, even the newly deomcratic eastern european countries look to the US for examples not France or Germany. I think it is a perfect example of how socialism breeds mediocrity, stagnation, incompetence.

[Jaime]

HeatherRob - please avoid such potential inflammatory blanket statements. Being constructive means supporting what you have to say rather than just saying things that appear to be written only to inflame people.

[Ted]

I found this story on Drudge and thought it'd be a good conversation piece. I have never liked the french government and always felt they had used some suspicious tactics and reasoning for not supporting the ouster of Saddam Hussein, but now the proof has been found.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...94014-7323r.htm

Al-Mada claims they have the papers and names. Tsk tsk Chirac.

Letting millions suffer from murder, gassings, rape and torture just so you could subsidize your socialism is atrocious.

My questions to everyone here are:

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

Personally I think they should have to make a public apology, be fined by the UN and have sanctions set on them for in-coming oil.

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

I am not at all surprised by this story. Many of us suspected this form the very beginning and this explains the arrogance of Iraq to UN mandates. Why comply when you have a Security Council country in your pocket.

We should protest at the UN and try to get France tossed from the Security Council permanently. We should BAR France from any and all contracts in Iraq. This is the worst kind of betrayal.

This post has been edited by Ted: Jan 31 2004, 08:22 PM

[Titus]

Ditto. The UN has no validity if the country that help make the rules hep break them.

[ConservPat]

What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?

Hey J. Locke Well, considering the "conservative" media hasn't picked up on this story very extensively, public opinon will not change very much. I feel more justified in my anti-French sentiment, now that my [and others who have hated the French gov't before hating the French gov't was the thing to do] suspicions have been shown to be correct.

What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

I think that we should expose them to the international community, and harshly criticize this action. What else can we do?

Why is it, in your opinion, the french people who are so quick to denounce American politics and show up in the millions to protest our President, don't seem to care about their own politics? I haven't seen anyone in france or in Hollywood for that matter (after all, they care so much for the lives of innocents) begin asking that Chirac be removed.

That, my friend, is because for some unexplainable reason, it can always be justifiable to take swipes at America, but it is unreasonable and childish to do the same to other countries.

CP

[johnlocke]

CP, I agree one hundred percent with HeatherRob and of course you. Why isn't this getting more coverage from the media???

BTW, what is that in your signature??? Libertarian in odd 4??? That had better be for lower offices! What are you doing voting outside party lines anyway? have you forgotten the doctrine of strength in numbers? Let the libs vote green, but you... tsk tsk.

[Jaime]

CP (I doubt I have to tell you this) - but don't respond to johnlocke's off-topic comment about your signature. He should have PMd you and not tried to distract everyone from the debate.

TOPIC TO DEBATE:
What are the political ramifications of this mess in terms of American public opinion? How do you feel about the french now?
What should the consequences of the french action be in terms of the American government?

[quarkhead]

I don't know if this story has any validity to it - I'll wait and see. But on the surface, the idea is pretty silly.

Anyone care to guess who Iraq's biggest trading partner was in 2001? Anyone? Who was buying 40% of Iraq's oil? It wasn't France. It was the US.

After 9/11/2001, who was the very first country in the world to stand up in the UN and say, today we are all Americans? France.

Heck, who supplied 90% of the gunpowder used in the Revolutionary war? France.

When the British surrendered at Yorktown, what nation's troops outnumbered Continentals in the field? France's.

What dastardry done in slimy bargains with nasty dictators like Hussein has been done with at least the same zeal by the US.

There may be some insight to what's happening here in the quote in my signature. Some people just don't feel safe unless there's someone to hate all the time.