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> A UN type presence in Israel/Palestine, possible solution
Christopher
post Mar 24 2004, 04:09 AM
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This is a very difficult problem and the consequences of it reach far beyond their borders.
The violence in that region never dies.
There is so much hate among enough people there that there will always be someone willing to commit an act that destroys any chance at peace.
One of the reasons now given for the war in Iraq is that we as Americans were in a constant state of threat from Saddam. Is not one of the main justifications given by terrorists the israeli/palestinian conflict?
We freed the Iraqis from the terror of living under a madman and so they could live in peace.
We are hunting down AlQuaeda because as long as they exist we are in danger.
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a major reason for much of the middle east terrorism. As long as it continues the chance of a terrorist action with global consequences (Nukes,Biologicals can literally spread like wildfire) is very great.

So would an international presence in Israel between the two combatants and the forcing of peace talks be a effective solution?

Could we force both sides to live up to their ends of what they claim is necessary and reasonable for peace?

What would be required to make it happen?

This post has been edited by christopher: Mar 24 2004, 04:09 AM
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lederuvdapac
post Mar 24 2004, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE(christopher @ Mar 24 2004, 04:09 AM)
So would an international presence in Israel between the two combatants and the forcing of peace talks be a effective solution?

Could we force both sides to live up to their ends of what they claim is necessary and reasonable for peace?

What would be required to make it happen?

the answers to your questions are no, no, and a miracle.

The Israelies and Palestinians have been fighting for thousands of years. No amount of diplomacy would be able to heal the wounds of all the bloodshed. Is it worth a shot though? It might be. But I do not see any progress in that region for a long time. The US has tried their best to create peace between the two groups but once an Israeli tank crosses the wrong bridge, or a Hamas member blows up a bus, everything will go right back to where we started.
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GoAmerica
post Mar 24 2004, 04:46 AM
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QUOTE(christopher @ Mar 23 2004, 10:09 PM)
So would an international presence in Israel between the two combatants and the forcing of peace talks be a effective solution?

Possibly. There might be splinter groups who will try to get rid of the international peacekeepers so that the can continue the violence, but i think in the long term, it might work for the peace process
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CruisingRam
post Mar 24 2004, 04:58 AM
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Yes, absolutely, if we hold the Isrealis to the same rules as we do the Palestenians.

First off, palestenians, or even muslims and jews HAVE NOT been "fighting for centuries"- in fact, the safest place to be a Jew for "thousands of years" was in Muslim countries- because you were pretty much guarunteed to be burnt at the stake in a pogrom in the "Christian" societies.

The real conflict between Jews and Palestenians wasn't until the UK basically handed over the country to the Jews- who hadn't lived there in 2000 years- and ignored the fact that there were poeple already living there.

So now we have this Jewish homeland basically put in the middle of a bunch of poeple already living there that really don't like the idea of being ethnically cleansed themselves, and see all Jews as foriegn invaders.

Well, now the reality is, many of the Jews living there were now born there, though I am not sure if they are now the majority, because of the influx of eastern european jews.

Now we must do what we have done in Ireland, South Africa and Kosovo- disarm both sides, spell out the rules, and make them form coalition goverments.

Isreal has gotten away with thier own form of terrorism while condeming Palestenians of thiers.

The Isrealis need to be disarmed immediately, and we need weapons inspectors to take away thier WMDs
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Dontreadonme
post Mar 24 2004, 03:17 PM
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So would an international presence in Israel between the two combatants and the forcing of peace talks be a effective solution?

I know I'm being pessimistic, but I don't believe an international presence would solve anything except making peacekeepers targets themselves.

While some talk about disarming Israel, let's not forget that it is still surrounded by hostile arab nations. Peacekeepers within the borders of Israel and the so-called "occupied territories" would do nothing to stem the flow of arms and explosives to the terrorists.

From The Hamas Convenant:

Article 7: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

Article 13: "So-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement ... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad [holy war]."


Yes...let's disarm Israel rolleyes.gif
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CruisingRam
post Mar 24 2004, 11:49 PM
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You make a very good point DTOM- but how do you go about making the palestenians less desperate and radical? If Hamas where not the main humanitarian force in the refugee camps- then Hamas would cease to exist.

The very economic hammer Isreal uses on day to day Palestenians is part of the reason they have such an implaccable foe. I was reading on one of the suicide bombers profile a ways back- a man, 34 years old, a bus driver with six kids. At some point, he was doing okay. Then the closing of the palestenians routes to work put him out of a job, and only Hamas we keeping his kids fed. At some point, this former a-political guy gets so desperate he straps a bomb to himself and kills as many Isrealis as he can.

To make a man leave his kids like that- and by all accounts and loving devoted family man- you have to make him awfully desperate!

So taking away the role of Hamas as the main relief for thier economic hardships would be a first good step!
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illuminati
post Mar 25 2004, 12:32 AM
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Quote by Cruising Ram:"The real conflict between Jews and Palestenians wasn't until the UK basically handed over the country to the Jews- who hadn't lived there
in 2000 years- and ignored the fact that there were poeple already living there."

Asfar as I know, state of Israel was created from British mandate of Palestine, which after the WWII received huge influx of European Jews (and even before WWII) and approved by UN, 1947 UN Partition Plan
How can you blaim US for disregarding UN authority and sumultaneously say that "UK haded over Palestine to the Jews" when it was created with the approval of the UN?

A theory of Peacekeeping detachment led by UN fails (at least in diplomatic status quo) because of the basic nature of the UN to avoid involvement into any sort of conflict, unless it's an obvious aggression of one state into the territory of the other and refusal to comply with resolution telling to leave (1951 Korean War, 1991 Kuwaiti War). As it's always the case, an "international" expeditionary force put up by UN in this type of scenario is 90%+ American, with American supplying most of the combat detachments and other countries assigning a small bunch of medics, cooks, mechanics and other REMFs. Usually US and UK supply most of troops and airforce.
So to summarize, UN is more of a debate society who condemns vices and malices, but very seldom acts to promote it's interests and enforce it's rules. They condemn any independent incursions of it's members into any other states, but do nothing to prevent th4e necesity for such incursions.
Of course UN is undoubtedly a world's largest humanitarian distributor and is highly valued and skilled in that area, but as a military force, it's, frankly speaking, totally non-viable when deprived of Anglo-Brittish component.

This post has been edited by illuminati: Mar 25 2004, 12:34 AM
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CruisingRam
post Mar 25 2004, 01:19 AM
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I agree with parts of your posts- but also have to put some of it in historical context- at the end of the war, the UN was basically the total tool of the UK and the US- Japan, Germany, France, well, the rest of Europe, had no real power yet, they were still climbing out of the rubble. So, yes, the UK pretty much made the decision, with the blessing of the US. Now, there was an African homeland option as well I recall, but the Jews were having nothing of it. The UK was still having it's basically colonial thinking- they are the real root cause of the middle easts problem anyway, with thier partitioning of the middle east after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Trans-Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, all of that ignored things like the Kurdish poeple etc.


That being said- I understand the guilt of the world over the Holocaust, I understand the need of the Jews to find a homeland- however, many poeples in this world have no homeland- the Kurds are one that comes to mind- the American Indians would be another- we always seem to go about this wrong and perpetuate mistake after mistake.

My wife's family and by extension, my daughter and son, being ethnically Jewish, I tend to empathize with the Jewish issues, but I also think that the Isreali state (seperate from being ethnically Jewish) is a dysfunctional situation, and until we approach it with some common sense, and hold the Isreali feet to the fire for thier abuses, we will have more generations of bloodshed.
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loreng59
post Apr 2 2004, 04:29 PM
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After seeing firsthand the UN in action on the Golan protecting terrorists before, during and after attacks from the IDF. The UN is the worst idea I have ever heard of, for ending the situation.

The UN has sided with the Arabs in every single issue since 1948. They have never condemned a single attack against Israel. Nor have the done anything to 13 Arabs states that have launched attacks against Israel in violation of the UN Charter.

Never, never, never
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DominusPugnae
post Apr 10 2004, 08:15 PM
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this is a religous issue between these two right? I say we have the religous leaders work something out. maybe after.... a few years? hopefully they wont kill each other when they're in the same room and try to work something out.
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loreng59
post Apr 10 2004, 08:38 PM
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No it is not a religious issue at all. Most Israelis have very little to do with religion. Over 20% of their population is Christian, Druse, or Muslim. Most of the Jewish citizens are referred to as secular Jews i.e. they are Jewish but do not attend services.

The issue is xenophobia. The Arabs hate anybody that is different and seem to feel that it is okay to kill those that are different. Work it out, they have been trying and succeeding in a lot of case to kill those that are different.

The UN has been protecting the Arab terrorists that have been attacking Israel from Lebanon for several years now. Israel does not trust the UN and will not accept them in any shape or form because of their strong support for terrorists attacking Israel.
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