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[unabomber]

first to the mods/admins, I'm not sure where this should be posted. it is rather serious, in my opinion, and I feel it must be discussed. however I can't think of any questions for debate per se. if you feel it is too vauge or missing, please move rather then closing this thread, thank you.

now, I know I am likely to be viewed as a conspiracy nut and derided for daring to question the autheticity of the claims about the video showing Nick Berg's murder. while some (not here) are claiming he isn't actually killed in the video (it was a hollywood stunt type thing) I do not promte that view and think the Nick is as dead as Elvis.

however, what I do question is the identity of the killers and some of the claims made about them, as well as circumstances surronding this whole thing.

first and foremost, is the claim that the man weilding the knife is al-Zarqawi. the problem is that he doesn't identify himself as al-Zarqawi, he is wearing a mask, and Iraq militants claim al-Zarqawi is dead (Alleged Statement Says Extremist Killed)

second, the timing of the release of the video. it conviently coincides with the abu ghraib torture scandel. most media is now focusing on the beheading and not the torture. (though it still comes up) this is of paticular advantage to bush. people are now focused on the beheading instead of the torture. I find it strange this video came out JUST as bush needed it.

third, what's up with that jumpsuit? out of the hostage/pow photos I have seen, non had any with coalition pows/hostages in jumpsuits. there are however photos of prisoners in the same type of jump suit: such as this one, this one, this one and this one. (you can also see an orange jumpsuit in one or two of the torture photos (go to gallery, photos 2, 6 & 7)

fourth, if you look at the hands of the people responsible, their skin is fair light colored, not like you would expect to see on an arab.

fifth, when they start to say allah akbar, at around 4 and a half minutes, some of the voices sound rather western, almost as if they were non-arabic speakers. also, what they are saying, allah akbar, is inaccurate. a fundelmentalist muslim would pronounce it allahu akbar, which is the real way to say "god is greatest". (compare:ALLAH akbar vs. ALLAHU akbar. also, mp3raid.com has the call to prayer so you can hear it properly pronounced (follow the link, search for "adhan")

sixth, the rifles the men are holding. a reader of what really happened with a sharp eye pointed this out: at approximatly 4 minutes and and 33 to 40 seconds the man that is second to left puts down his rifle, providing a profile. at first it appears to be an AK (47 or 74) but upon further scrutinity it isn't. it does however match almost to a T another rifle (similar in design to the AK) and that is the Galil (possibly AR version) also, at about 1 minute and a half minutes the man on the right ends shoulders his weapon, and it has a telescoping stock. I have NEVER seen any AKs with a telescoping stock. both weapons are western and very expensive (which one reason terrorists like the AK, it's cheap)

seven. artemise pointed out to me that the screaming start BEFORE he is cut. one would figure that would happen AFTER.

eight. this one is rather ominous. prior to be "kidnapped", mr Berg was being held by iraq and US authorities. this is why he did not leave Iraq sooner.

CNN reported on Wednesday that Berg's family has e-mails in which the 26-year-old said he had been turned over to coalition forces, who held him for 13 days.

The Bergs filed a lawsuit on April 5, saying their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. Berg was released on April 6.

Berg told his parents he would try to get out of Iraq as quickly as possible. They last heard from him on April 9.

how convenient, he was realeased and the HAPPENED to get "kidnapped" right away.

there many more tiny details and discrepancies and I don't have time to post them all.

wquestion for debate are:

is it possible (even theoretically) that this was all staged to take attention away from the torture scandel (ala wag the dog)?

why are there so many inconsistencies and discrepancies in this whole thing?

do you think are government is not above doing something like this in order to keep something under wraps? (there is speculation he might have known something quite embarrassing to the coalition)

[uhavenoidea]

is it possible (even theoretically) that this was all staged to take attention away from the torture scandel (ala wag the dog)?

why are there so many inconsistencies and discrepancies in this whole thing?

do you think are government is not above doing something like this in order to keep something under wraps? (there is speculation he might have known something quite embarrassing to the coalition)

NO becuase the dogs "attacking" the nude prisoners is not torture because they dont actually "attack" the prisoners. If anything it is Embarrasment which means that these people that we have "tortured" cant go back to their tribes or if they do they risk being killed. This is a method to get them to talk, EMBARRASMENT.


How many inconsistencies and discrepancies are there in anything that we see in todays world. You cant say that the tape is illegitimant because of these minor problems. And what if was western weapontry dont you think by now the iraqis have some how come across western weapons. I mean they have taken POW's which had weapons.


If the man did know something about the coalition then he keep his mouth shut or he is going agianst his country which usually has a very harsh punishment. The government wouldnt do this to keep something under wraps and if they did what made them do it?

[Dontreadonme]

For now I will comment on the weapons.
I know that you can have a telescoping stock on an AK variant, the steel rod type that slides up along the receiver, but to my knowledge, it was not standard issue (rather an after market effect) on the AK's, with the possible exception of the AK-100. And I'm still trying to research that.
I had downloaded the video yesterday, and I could not see the weapons close enough to tell. But I can't really see how you would really be able to tell if it's a Galil or an AK on a grainy third world webcam.

From AK-47 Link

Basically, the Galil assault rifle can be described as a modified Kalashnikov AK-47 design. The key differences between the Galil and the AK-47 are;

the Galil featured a machined steel receivers of the original AK-47 rifles, but of slightly different shape.
The AK-47-style safety - selector switch at the right side of the gun is complemented by the additional smaller switch at the left side of the receiver, above the pistol handle.
The cocking handle is bent upward, so it can be operated with either hand.
The sights of the Galil featured a front hooded post, mounted on the gas block, with the rear diopter sight, mounted on the receiver top cover. Rear sight is of the flip-up type, with settings for 300 and 500 meters.
Additional folding night sights with luminous inserts can be raised into position, which allows to aim the gun in the low light conditions at the ranges of up to 100 meters.
The barrel and the flash hider can be used to launch the rifle grenades from the barrel, using the blanc or live cartridges (depending on the rifle grenade type).
The Galil ARM also features a folding detachable bipods and a carrying handle.
The bipod base incorporates a bottle opener and a wire cutter.
The standard folding buttstock is patterned after FN FAL Para, folds to the right to save the space.
Some of the late production Micro-Galil (MAR) rifles also are fitted with the Picatinny-type rail, which allows to mount various sighting devices.
Standard AR and ARM rifles can be fitted with scope mounting rail on the left side of the receiver.
All 5.56mm Galil rifles are fed using proprietary 35 or 50 rounds curved box magazines with AK-47 style locking.
M16-type magazines can be used via the special adapter.
7.62mm Galil rifles are fed using proprietary 25 rounds box magazines.
Civilian semi-automatic Galil variants sometimes are fitted with 10 rounds magazines to comply with local firearms laws.

Even if some were Galil's, though not as widespread as the AK's, the Galil's are available just as any assault rifles are. I personally don't think Mossad (or whomever) would overlook that technicality.

And I would imagine that if someone knew he was about to be executed, he just might start screaming in terror, before the knife came down on his neck.

I really don't see how anybody in government or elsewhere would think that this would wag the dog. It hasn't knocked out media coverage of the prison abuse. Not by a long shot.

[Artemise]

DTOM,

Actually he is not screaming, he is calm before he is knocked over, so calm I dont think he has a clue whats going to happen. The screaming starts before the guys are finished reading, even before the knife is pulled, in fact to me the screaming is in the foreground in compared to the speech, much closer to the camera (?) and after it starts you can hear the guys in the backround still. It seems to me like theres a crap load of commotion going on in the foreground right before the actual incident.

I never considered conspiracy on this, my question was at first, was he the only one?

The other possibility is that it was dubbed, which brings up some questions. Dubbing is more difficult and there is no need since audio is already on a webcam or a regular video camera.

I just found it odd.

This post has been edited by Artemise: May 13 2004, 02:08 AM

[Irwin]

Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible. Faking the moon landings was also possible. Alien abduction is also possible. The question is really....is it likely?

People often try to use the conspiracy theories when they are presented with situations and truths they wish not to deal with. The Arab world blamed Jews for the Sept 11the attacks, even after Bin Laden admitted that he planned the event and knew the attacks would occur ahead of time. To get around that bit of evidence, they simply dismissed the tapes as American forgeries, carried out by Jewish Hollywood film directors. See a pattern?

Anyway, my point is, what is the likelihood of a tape like this being a forgery? Would the US behead an American civilian on tape and then leave his body on the side of the road for the US army to pick up? I guess your answer to this question depends on your personal perspective (and the amount of Ted Rall and Michael Moore you consume).

Personally, since these animals have already done this once before under similar circumstances, I think you would have to be completely brain-dead not to see this as the real thing. But, what do I know.

[Robin_Scotland]

Odd. There was a program on TV last night about the top ten conspiracy theories, number one being the government using mind control techniques. If this was a set up, that is certainly the category it would fit into.

However, this video (to me) is quite clearly genuine. And I am always up for a good conspiracy theory; I'm a firm believer of conspiracies behind the deaths of the Kennedies and Luther King, and strange goings on at Roswell, New Mexico.

It does appear convenient that this video came out at a good time to try and take the heat off the abuse photographs (although that isn't working, at least in the UK media - it's actually put more focus on the photos). On the other hand, this execution being 'punishment' for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is more likely.

I'm sure theres a lot of things in that video that could be used to argue this is a conspiracy. At the same time, to me it seems to border on the 'crazy' conspiracies (fake moon landing, 9/11 being a government setup etc). Afterall, what good will this do the US government? Will they use it as a scapegoat to pull out of Iraq and leave the mess they made? I don't think the world would buy that, some American civilian responses on the news were along the lines of 'pull out' but just as many said something like 'send more troops'. For that matter, will they use it as proof that they have to stay for as long as it takes. Well, the same argument applies, I would think the relatives of soldiers in Iraq will want their loved ones back more than ever.

Come to think of it, this being a conspiracy could be less likely than the moon landing or 9/11, because the arguments for those theories included a clear purpose (to win the space race against the Soviets, justification for reducing civil liberties and increasing government power at home and abroad). The dreadful execution of Nick Berg does not have such a purpose, although it is still early days I can't see this being used to make any significant changes that could not have been made without this video as justification.

I have as much mistrust of our governments as anyone, I feel that it is important to question the actions and motives of your government if you have any hope of continuing democracy. People can be evil and wicked, and we've seen some hard evidence recently that nationality/race/religion does not play a part in what makes a twisted human being. While I believe that there are certainly some twisted people in high positions, I would have to dismiss this as being a step too far.

This post has been edited by Robin_Scotland: May 13 2004, 09:45 AM

[moif]

is it possible (even theoretically) that this was all staged to take attention away from the torture scandel (ala wag the dog)?

Yes, its possible.


why are there so many inconsistencies and discrepancies in this whole thing?

I don't know if there are any. Your analysis is actually only a series of questions rather than conclusions.


do you think are government is not above doing something like this in order to keep something under wraps? (there is speculation he might have known something quite embarrassing to the coalition)

I don't know. I don't find the timing odd, since the killing was described by those who carried it out as an act of revenge for what happened in Abu Graib.

I'm not sure about whether or not the US government is capable of this sort of act. My first reaction would be to say yes, since its not hard to imagine that any one capable of ordering the mass death involved in a war would baulk at the thought of rescuing their war by the slaying of a single man.

I also find it curious that Hizbollah condemned the killing as 'anti Islamic'. This immedietly gives rise to two thoughts. The first being that if Hizbollah openly condemns this action, then I'm missing some relevant piece of information regarding Islamic morality since I was under the impression that Hizbollah were themselves a terrorist faction.

The second is the continued evasion of Osama Bin Laden. If this is some sort of conspiracy, then this might explain why people like Osama Bin Laden never seem to get caught. My thought being that Bin Laden is more usefull to the Bush adminstration at large... at least for the time being.

On the other hand, it may simply be that there are so many lies and counter lies being aired by just about every one in this mess now, that I no longer trust any of those involved.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/040512/15/p/oyu8.html

[Artemise]

While Im not up for conspiracy on this yet there are some discrepancies and questions involved.

The orange suit is the least but valid.

The Uk Independant reported that several hours had transpired between the speech and the killing. On close inspection I find that between pulling out the knife and knocking him down to the actual act the timer numbers jump from 2-44-40' to 13-45-+

Thats 11 hours of missing footage. That accounts for the audio dub. There are at least two or three splices. The video initially is on a tripod also, the rest is hand held. This doesnt happen fast unless they have a quik release tripod (expensive) and the camera man is an expert photographer (obviously not). What we are seeing is not what happened in sequence.

Speculators are wondering if perhaps he was already dead for various reasons. Trying not to be too sick and gory the main ideas are that there was little struggle, the men are not holding him firmly and he would surely fight for his life simply as reaction. Although he was bound hand and foot he would have been wrenching away and trying to turn his head. Secondly, the lack of blood in cutting the carotid artery towards the camera, (spurting is inevitable and plentiful) and lack of blood on the killers knife hand , nearly impossible. This does not give any evidence of conspiracy but gives reason to believe we are not seeing the events the way they were presented.

The one thing I cannot explain is that in one of the shots showing the severed head, the video jumps back to the 2-40's again for just a second. This is totally inconsistant with the entire rest of the footage and raises suspicion of staging.
( I wondered why Drudge had blurred the numbers on this shot when the others were clearly visable) This one shot means the entire beheading part of the video makes no sense at all, though I believe it happened, I just cant explain this in any way as a photographer.

Other than that
The family says Nick was in US custody for 2 weeks after being picked up by Iraqi police near Mosul. The US denies this but says they visited him 3 times. Perhaps Nick did not know who held him, yet said he was treated fairly.
The family filed Federal suit on civil rights abuse charges and he was released the next day, to be allegedly kidnapped 3 days later. Strange enough, but then what isnt over there.

Synapsis of events:
The torture photos were released by the media April 30. Nick was not heard from after the 6th of April, his body was found on sat the 8th may. The family informed on Monday and the video found early tues morning (11th). This seems very expedient to me, from the military. I didnt know in a war zone anyone could work that fast , but I would not know about military things.
( Edit: This was wrong date wise.) The killing itself was expedient, in 6 days from the torture photos, then they must have worked over the video on the weekend to release it by early tues our time. This suggests a great amount of organization and quik decision making, especially since 11 hours of video are lost. I am also curious as to what kind of equipment these people have that allows viewing, splicing (relatively well) and audio dubbing of video, a place to do it and the knowledge. While its not particularily difficult its not something just anybody knows how to do.

This post has been edited by Artemise: May 13 2004, 01:22 PM

[moif]

Artemise

Although he was bound hand and foot he would have been wrenching away and trying to turn his head. Secondly, the lack of blood in cutting the carotid artery towards the camera, (spurting is inevitable and plentiful) and lack of blood on the killers knife hand , nearly impossible. This does not give any evidence of conspiracy but gives reason to believe we are not seeing the events the way they were presented.

Once, to my regret, I saw footage of a Russian soldier having his throat cut by Chenchyan guerilla's. His neck was opened by a single slice of a very large knife and he literally bled to death with a strong steady flow. There was no spurting of blood. The Russian, whilst in great terror hardly flinched as his throat was cut.

I believe many video's of such executions of Russian soldiers have been made by the Chechnyans and according to one report I've recently read, these are available from shops in Baghdad on a CD ROM..

[Paladin Elspeth]

I could not bring myself to view the video, so I cannot support nor try to refute the discrepancies and hypotheses posted here.

I did hear a news commentator say that the one speaking could not be al-Zarqawi because the accent is wrong.

What is known is that this is a propaganda film. The terrorists used it; our government most certainly could be using it to counterbalance the scandal arising from the prison photographs and videos. So it served the purposes of everyone involved; is everybody (except the family of the unfortunate pawn and those who abhor violence) happy?

I can't help remembering watching the film footage of George W. Bush reading to the children when he was informed of the bombings on September 11, 2001, and his remarkably minimal response. I wonder about it, especially in light of the revelation of a PDB memo with the title saying that Bin Laden was planning to attack within the United States, or the testimony of Richard Clarke that yes, the cabinet was told that planes could be used as missiles but it was denied by Condoleezza Rice. I also remember how Colin Powell faced the UN presenting the intelligence that was supposed to win over the assembly to the idea that Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S. and the world, and how unconvinced he himself looked at the time.

I remember how former President George H.W. Bush was at the time (of the 9/11 attacks) in a meeting with Saudis, including Osama bin Laden's kin, and how, although all domestic flights were grounded, he still managed to get the family out of the country on a jet.

And I think, my God, just how much of this stuff is engineered for our consumption in order to rationalize our Chief Executive's/government's actions? We're not talking UFO's and alien abductions here.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

More than ever, Pontius Pilate's question is relevant: What is truth?

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: May 13 2004, 12:46 PM

[Artemise]

Moif,

This video is particularily gruesome and not clean at all as far as the actual event. Its not a clean slice across, they start on left side carotid. There is some struggle too. Its probably the most gruesome thing Ive ever seen in my life. I personally believe it happened from viewing it (too many times looking for clues).
I just did want to point out what is being said as possibilities.

The thing I cant get by are the technicalities. The one second video splice from 11 hours earlier as an after event really bugs me but there may be something Im overlooking that would justify this photographically, but so far it makes no sense.

Edited to add:

Only one thing has just occurred to me and that would be two different cameras.

Yep, thats the only other possibility.

I just got it. The originals numbers 2-44's at finish on tripod are one camera and the killing another, hand held.
The numbers match with the cut in scene at 2-46 on a tripod for one shot near the end.

Damn. They spliced two different vids together, which accounts for the time loss discrepancy and the messed up audio.

This post has been edited by Artemise: May 13 2004, 01:32 PM

[Irwin]

I believe many video's of such executions of Russian soldiers have been made by the Chechnyans and according to one report I've recently read, these are available from shops in Baghdad on a CD ROM..

Not surprising. Pretty much par for the course for those people.

Anyway, I think what we are seeing here is a classic case of conspiracy theory in the response to the inability for one to disprove a negative. No one can prove that this video was not staged. Just like no one can prove there were not little green men running around the desert in New Mexico or that there isn't a big aquatic dinosaur swimming around in Scotland.

The problem is, the burden is on the X-Files fans on here to prove that this was a conspiracy, not the other way around. You have to prove the positive. Past evidence and historical actions of these people show that this is typical of their actions. Thus, it's logical to initially assume the video, although gruesome, is valid. Thus, until evidence to the contrary (and I mean REAL evidence) comes about, then this is no different from the people who think there is a big, hairy apeman running around in the forests of Washington state.

[redliner1989]

As for the timer differences.

The two cameras, sliced to make one film makes the most sense. Years ago I videotaped a wedding (in the early days of this). I edited together the video from the two cameras that both had the dates and times on them visible (didn't work out well, but hey, it was my first attempt). One of the Cameras had the correct date and time, and the second did not.

When veiwing the completed product, whenever the angle changed, so did the time/date.

[Paladin Elspeth]

The problem is, the burden is on the X-Files fans on here to prove that this was a conspiracy, not the other way around. You have to prove the positive. Past evidence and historical actions of these people show that this is typical of their actions. Thus, it's logical to initially assume the video, although gruesome, is valid. Thus, until evidence to the contrary (and I mean REAL evidence) comes about, then this is no different from the people who think there is a big, hairy apeman running around in the forests of Washington state.

Alternatively, Irwin, the simpler explanation can always be considered. Occam's Razor, when it's cooked down, states that the simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Simply put, the Bush administration is the most incompetent one we've had, and it uses an extraordinary amount of secretiveness in an effort to conceal just how incompetent it is.

Does that sound more plausible to the Show Me crowd? If not, remember that Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

A man died wrongfully; that's what we're discussing. They found his headless body. He was an American, a non-combatant civilian. There are questions, lots of them, surrounding his death. But it seems to me that, questions or not, the fallout from the video is serving the pro-war faction of our government quite well. Swell--let's go out and kill more people. That'll fix it, right?

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: May 13 2004, 11:57 PM

[redliner1989]

P.E.:

Simply put, the Bush administration is the most incompetent one we've had

Nope, not even close:

JFK would be:

1. Got us deaply into the Vietnam conflict.

2. Bay of Pigs fiasco

Let us not forget, the reason he went to Dallas in the first place was he was trailing in the polls (probably because of #1 & #2)

GW Bush:

Won Wars in Afganistan and Iraq. (War loses to defeat a country of 25 million = less then 1K)

I'll see your two fiasco's and raise ya a Victory......

Red

Edited to add:

But it seems to me that, questions or not, the fallout from the video is serving the pro-war faction of our government quite well. Swell--let's go out and kill more people. That'll fix it, right? 

P.E.: Look at the Video. We are not dealing with the Germans in WW2 or even the Japanese in WW2. They did unbeleivable acts upon our men, but this sinks to a level of crap rarely seen before.

Kill a few more? Sadly, that might be the only choice. That or wait until it is us, not Nick Berg under the knife. If I am going to guess wrong, it will be on the side that assures I am not next.

This post has been edited by redliner1989: May 14 2004, 12:04 AM

[Paladin Elspeth]

And if JFK had not been assassinated, what would he have done? Perhaps corrected his mistakes? I wonder if G.W. is capable of correcting his mistakes even if he were big enough to acknowledge them.....

Kennedy was also known for the things he did RIGHT to promote civil rights.

Jimmy Carter, for all of his alleged incompetence as a President, brokered a peace agreement between Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat.

And the two victories for George W. Bush? Afghanistan--let's see--bin Laden not captured, the Taliban coming back in to set up shop, more troops being sent back there to weed the garden again...some victory. It's like bombing for cockroaches only to see them back the following month.

Iraq--now there's a victory--ever since we "won" we've been losing, especially lives. Now there is more active terrorism in the "liberated" country (not occupied, mind you) than there ever was under the rule of Saddam Hussein. Some victory.

That is George W. Bush's legacy? Heaven help us all.

This post has been edited by Paladin Elspeth: May 14 2004, 12:06 AM

[Mrs. Pigpen]

Alternatively, Irwin, the simpler explanation can always be considered. Occam's Razor, when it's cooked down, states that the simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Simply put, the Bush administration is the most incompetent one we've had, and it uses an extraordinary amount of secretiveness in an effort to conceal just how incompetent it is.

Does that sound more plausible to the Show Me crowd? If not, remember that Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

PE...do you seriously think that the conspiracy scenario is the simplest explanation here?
Breaking down just a few of Unabomber's 'inconsistencies' we have a staged decapitation of a man wearing a suit that looks "suspicious" (why, I didn't know), carried out by non-Arabs, but some lighter-skinned men, speaking supposed bad Arabic (which millions of Arabs would not pick up on, but an American might).

There were probably two cameras used, I agree with that. There was a scream coming from the back, as the knife came out. A few seconds later, the victim was screaming as he was cut. There is not much mystery there. No reason to conclude that others weren't present and watching as those five spoke into the camera. Absolutely no reason to conclude that Bush staged the whole thing, and it takes a very UNSIMPLE pattern of reasoning to come up with that.

[redliner1989]

And if JFK had not been assassinated, what would he have done? Perhaps corrected his mistakes? I wonder if G.W. is capable of correcting his mistakes even if he were big enough to acknowledge them..... 

Funny, Vietnam, with 53,000 deaths, not a mistake. Iraq with less then 1,000 = mistake.

Did JFK admit to that Marilyn Monroe thing? Pain Killers?

GW Bush = Tax Cuts (I love the guy) Dealing with a terrorist attack that killed 3000+ (One of the photo's that will go down in History of Greatness is GWB standing on the ruble telling the world we will not be defeated)

Cuba a free nation?

That Middle East Peace thing? Hows that comin

55 mph national speed limit?

Oil Shortage?

Hostages taken in Iran, failed rescue mission.........

[Jaime]

red - you're way off-topic.

DEBATE:
Is it possible (even theoretically) that this was all staged to take attention away from the torture scandel (ala wag the dog)?

Why are there so many inconsistencies and discrepancies in this whole thing?

This post has been edited by Jaime: May 14 2004, 12:29 AM

[Paladin Elspeth]

PE...do you seriously think that the conspiracy scenario is the simplest explanation here?

I'm sorry, Mrs. P, I must not have been clear. To the contrary, the simplest explanation is that the Bush presidency is incredibly incompetent and secretive, and that while the administration is not responsible for the beheading of Mr. Berg, it is certainly making political hay while the sun is shining.