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[nebraska29]

In a recent speech, Bill Cosby stated:

"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he said Monday night. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what?

"And they won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' ...

"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English," he said. "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't.' 'Where you is.' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"

I know that this might be somewhat of an inflammatory topic, but I hope that we all can keep this very civil.

Questions for debate:

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

[CruisingRam]

This is contructive critisism IMO. I think this is one area that is 100% to blame on bad parenting. Bill Cosby is spot on about opportunities for these folks. White or black or purple, I have a lawyer that tell me in conversation "Is you ain't or is you is"- I will find a new lawyer, Pronto!

I don't think Bill Cosby is a racist or an elitist - and I think his critisism are good for the nation.

You ever listen to Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle? In many ways, they are saying the same things- for instance Chris Rocks "How not to get your butt kicked when stopped by the cops" was funny- and true! #1 way to not get beat by the police? don't break the law and so on-

I forgot who said it- but it still stands "That what is said in jest is often more truthful than that which is said in Earnst"

Comedians today seem to have a better handle on it than anyone!

[Mrs. Pigpen]

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech?  Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

1) There are profound effects on the capacity to think and visualize that arise from vocabulary and grammar. Languages are adjusted to reflect ways of life. For example, the eskimos have over 100 distinct words to describe types of snow. I'd bet an eskimo has a more profound understanding of the characteristics of snow than a westerner...and not just because they look at it every day. People think as they speak, and the language is reflective of the user. Likewise, language is very important to the conceptualization of the user. Poor language skills create a very large handicap...both in the conceptual ability of the speaker and the way their audience perceives them. This is true of people in the deep south, those who speak only creole in Louisiana, and those who speak only black English.

2) I didn't hear the whole speech, so I don't know.

3) No. I think he was right on.

This post has been edited by Mrs. Pigpen: May 21 2004, 10:37 PM

[Hugo]

[QUOTE]2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Why is it that those who harp on society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity are seldom questioned as to why they don't address the individual's role in helping himself and his family? It seems to me that society's role in propagating human misery is addressed much more frequently than the individual's role. Why should not individuals be allowed to focus on the individual responsibility side of the coin?

In other words ,Why ain't peeps letting Bill say what he wanna say? he be speakin sum good stuff.

[deerjerkydave]

I've always been a fan of Bill Cosby. I remember listening to some of his stand-up performances on vinyl records when I was a kid and loving it. He was never vulgar and always seemed to be a class act.

Anyway, this isn't the first time I've heard Bill express discouragement with the low income demographic. He seems to have a strong belief in the American dream and feels that those who earn less could do more to improve their circumstances. His wording is defenitely a stinging rebuke to those who preach otherwise: that the poor are incapable of bettering themselves thanks to social and capitalist oppression.

[Azure-Citizen]

I, too, like Bill Cosby and his work.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

I echo the sentiments expressed by Mrs. P above concerning the effects of language on the capacity to think and visualize. Cosby's remarks are best interpreted as constructive criticism in that regard.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Probably not. I don't know if Cosby really addressed any of those issues in his remarks, but I suspect that if if you asked him, he would acknowledge that there is definitely a role social inequality has played in the process, but he wants the African-American community to recognize its own faults in perpetuating it and for parents to do what they can to improve language and education.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

On the language issue, I don't think so. I think he was trying to send a wake-up call to the audience and apparently his remarks were met with "astonishment, laughter and applause." However, the referenced article makes it apparent that this was not a comedy venue, but a Constitution Hall event in Washington Monday night commemorating the 50th anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education. I'm sure there were plenty of people involved in planning the event who may have felt Cosby stradled the line. Cosby also went on to say that when blacks commit crimes, the black community should not be up in arms over the arrest just because the perpetrator is black (I totally agree with this). However, he illustrated it with the following example:

"These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, [saying] 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

At least with this remark, I think he may have been too harsh. I don't know of any jurisdiction in America that would authorize lethal force to be used if someone stole and ran off with a piece of food. Bill Cosby doesn't either and probably intended the remark for shock impact, but given the nature of the commemorative event in question it might have been too harsh.

[Grendel72]

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?He has a bit of a point, but the venue he chose to make this point in guarantees that it will be treated as a racial issue when it isn't. As well, the patronizing tone he used was ill advised.
People who use slang are not ignorant, the language evolves with use. People use different modes of speech in different situations, it's sheer ignorance to assume that using an informal tone in informal situations reflects on the intelligence of the speaker.
2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?I think he is.
3.)Was Cosby too harsh?The Cos has a point about our societys' (and that is all of us, no race or income divisions needed) aggressive anti intellectualism, but muddles his point by bringing income into it and his ill chosen choice of venue ensures that certain elements will try to make his comments into a racial thing.

[Catte]

Bill Cosby is more than a comedian. He is also Dr. Bill Cosby - with a fully earned (not honorary) doctorate in education. He takes the issue of education very seriously, and I can imagine his frustration over the fact that many blacks haven't seemed to benefit from what Brown vs Board was supposed to offer.

From my perspective (over 25 years in social work) much of what he is reported saying is more a socio-economic issue than a race issue. A whole new topic might be developed on just why a disproportionate number of blacks are at the bottom of the economic scale.

On the language question I remember a concept that really stuck with me in a master's level course on "the disadvantaged" I took in an education department (30 yrs. ago). The general point was that an expansive and rich language experience in early childhood helped tremendously in both language and thinking skills later in school. It was pointed out that this could happen in day to day routine; but not so readily in low income homes.
Example: "You can have a bologna sandwich or a peanut butter sandwich. Which do you want?" "You can have just two cookies" and "We are going to the park now. Put on your red sweater."
So this kid learns that there are choices, he can have wants, there are parks to go to, he is learning his numbers (two cookies). He is learning his colors (red); because he also has a blue sweater and a green one.
In a low income home he's lucky to get a sandwich at all, never mind what kind; and lucky to have one sweater, so there's no need to specify which.
That class was training students to help parents and children of 1974. A low income kid then may well have had a child of her own by 1989, and her child may be having another child this year.
(Opportunity for another new topic - abstinence only sex ed)

Too harsh? Maybe not. I don't think anybody, including Dr. Cosby, would endorse shooting someone dead for stealing a pound cake. Should they be shot for stealing a steak? Maybe for stealing a car? Or stealing the gold jewelry off an elderly woman after murdering her? Where to draw the line? How many of us learned not to steal because our parents figured out that we didn't "buy" that candy bar; and marched us back to the store to apologize - and return it and/or pay for it (with allowance money)? If you are in a home that doesn't understand and can't teach you that you have a choice, that there are limits to two cookies instead of three, that there are red sweaters for the park and blue sweaters for school - how do you learn you shouldn't steal pound cakes, steaks, or cars?

I think he used his fame and recognition appropriately to issue a strong wake up call. Our whole society should wake up and listen, but until then blacks may once again need to take the lead for themselves and all of us.

[nighttimer]

Questions for debate:

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech?  Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

Anybody ever read the poetry of Gwendolyn Brooks? This one always stayed with me:

We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon


What Dr. Cosby is talking about is a disease that has reached epidemic proportions in the Black community. It's called anti-intellectualism.

Cosby isn't the first to go off on the Culture of Stupidity. So has Spike Lee and Chris Rock and Oprah Winfrey and Colin Powell and Magic Johnson and Charles Barkley and The Boondocks.

It's already hard enough to raise a chid positively in a world filled with so many negative stimuli. It's even harder when forces conspire to keep that child stupid.

Violent, misgyonist rap keeps black folks stupid. Celebration of pimp, thug, and being a sociopath culture keeps black folks stupid. Drugs, alcohol and too much greasy, starchy foods keeps black folks stupid. A steady diet of trash TV, no books, no computers, and no library cards keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on immediate gratification, easy credit, and lack of fiscal discipline keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on gold-capped teeth, $200 sneakers, tricked-out rides with the biggest rims, cell phones pressed to the ear, pit bull on a leash and pants hanging off the butt keep black folks stupid. Too much priority on being cool, getting paid and hustling instead of being smart keeps black folks stupid.

Dr. Cosby knows that as tough as the job market is in this global economy for White people it's ten times harder for Black people. Especially Black people who have a great color cell phone but no job to go to and put all their assets on their...posteriors...and have SUV's that cost more than the house they're parked in front of.

But specifically to the questions for debate:

1. What "lower economic people" should take from Cosby's speech is that you can't get a job looking like you just walked off the set of a 50 Cent rap video. Not in 99 percent of workplaces in America. You can "keep it real" or you can break out that suit in the back of the closet you keep for funerals and weddings and get a job. That's what Cosby is talking about. As my father told me, "The world doesn't need as many strong backs and weak minds as it used to."

2. Society certainly has a role to play in the elimination of social inequality and lack of opportunity. But if a black kid has skills with a microphone in one hand and a basketball in the other are greater than his math, English and social skills he's probably going to emptying the wastebaskets of the Bill Gates of the world instead of becoming the next one. We live in a world where the biggest barrier to a black person's success is an inability to recognize the barrier is no longer there.

3. Was Cosby too harsh? Yes he was if the truth is harsh. If the truth is most of us aren't going to win American Idol, play point guard for the Lakers or become a mogul and Broadway star like P.Diddy. Most of us are going to have to get up, clean up and go get a crappy job doing something we hate for people we don't like. That is, if we haven't prepared ourselves for something else besides thinking about rings, material things and bling-bling.

Malcolm X said tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today. I doubt he meant slinging enough rocks to buy the new Air Jordans at Foot Locker.



This post has been edited by nighttimer: May 22 2004, 04:51 AM

[Julian]

[quote=nighttimer,May 22 2004, 05:47 AM] [QUOTE=nebraska29,May 21 2004, 05:33 PM]
What Dr. Cosby is talking about is a disease that has reached epidemic proportions in the Black community. It's called anti-intellectualism. [/quote]
Excuse me for saying so, but I don't think anti-intellectualism is a peculiarly black trait in modern America.

It infests the whole of society inside the USA, and to a somewhat lesser extent, across the whole Anglo-Saxon world.

Our whole business and technical economy relies on people who have specialist skills - there is little or no requirement for generalists any more. Since education is now seen as a primarily economic tool, the trend is for schools and universities to be less and less focused on general education, instead churning out ever larger numbers of people whose knowledge and understanding of the world around them is focused on one or two narrow specialisms. Outside these areas, we increasingly are either ignorant, or uninterested, or both.

In part, the great advances in sciences (including social ones) and technology have meant it simply isn't possible for one person to have expertise in more than a few areas, the way it was for, say, Da Vinci or even Edison.

But beneath this increasingly narrow-minded middle class, there is a whole swathe of people who do not see the point of education. For several years now, social mobility in Anglo-Saxon societies has been ossifying. Those at the top do not fall, and those at the bottom do not rise. The anecdotes of the rags to riches (or riches to rags) successes are notable mainly for their atypicality - at the bottom, hard work usually doesn't lead to great success (and modest success is no longer valued by anyone else in our societies - our ideas of success today are skewed towards being rich rather than comfortable - so why should the poorest people be any different?).

The great myth is that if you work hard enough for long enough, you will succeed. Certainly, it is quite unusual for anyone who does succeed to do it without hard work (except for those that inherit their wealth, of course, who will only grow in numbers if & when "death taxes" are abolished).

But in any other walk of life, we would laugh at such a self-selected sample. We don't see the people who do work hard but still don't succeed because they don't succeed. Our societies, and American society in particular, doesn't like to think about failure, so we avoid thinking about that particular abyss, lest it think about us.

And as we all buy into the myth more and more, and cut our own taxes and get rid of the programs that were originally designed, with however many flaws, to give the people at the bottom a leg up by taxing the people at the top, we remove more and more of the incentives to the people at the bottom to even try and play the game.

From their point of view, what point is there to speaking standard English (and, realistically, how many native-born urban poor Americans genuinely CANNOT speak or understand standard English?) when the best job on offer comes with a baseball cap & apron? What point is there to learning when it can only be acheived at the cost of huge debt, which can only be paid off in a few careers?

From ours, though, they aren't playing the game by the rules we think we are using, so we think they should either play fair or be penalised. This only makes us more determined to enforce the rules that we think we played to when we played and won, conveniently ignoring that our success was not just down to our own hard work, but also to the dumb luck that we are so busy denying we can't admit it to ourselves, let alone anyone else.

So we try ever harder to blot out from our consciousness anything that might let light in on out dark little dream. Things like thoughtful people who wonder aloud how things might be different. Or "liberals" who think that dumb luck does play a part, and that those who benefit from it should not begrudge helping those who don't, and maybe the tax system should reflect that, because human generosity is not as reliable or certain as taxation.

Is the sneering anti-intellectualism that characterises much of the prejudice against "liberals in academia" because they are liberals, or because they are academics? And might they be liberals because they are smarter and have more time to think than we do?

(Of course, the risk of allowing luck to play a part in our ideas of success or failure is that it becomes the only thing that play a part, and everyone stops believing hard work makes a difference. Both are necessary, which is why out-and-out socialism works as badly as raw market capitalism. Social markets are the best recipe for sanity AND success, but they are fine line to walk without wobbling into one extreme or the other.)

SO, after a preamble that is long even by my own standards of rambling, Cosby was right to draw attention to the issue, but maybe over-simplistic in his presentation of it.

By any measure he must count as a political liberal in the USA (surely?) so it's worth praising him for recognising some realities. I just wish political conservatives would publicly place more value on some liberal ideas while in office (it's too easy to do it when you aren't - what happened to the compassion in George W Bush's conservatism?).

[nighttimer]

Point taken Julian and well stated, sir.

I specifically limited my rant to the Black community in America, because it's the one that I am most initimately familiar with and as a parent of two children who excel in school, I know the forces arrayed against their success.

I agree that society has devalued intelligence, an appreciation of fine art, good books, manners and all the other factors that uplift our minds, bodies and souls. But the problem is if something is a disease in the larger White Anglo-Saxon culture it is often a plague among the Black and Brown cultures.

Bill Cosby is a part of what W.E.B. DuBois called, "The Talented Tenth." DuBois believed that it would be the exceptional people of the Negro race that would lead and inspire others to achieve great things. Unhappily, what DuBois failed to see that many blacks having reached a level of intellectual achievement and economic success would "sell out" and abdicate any sense of social responsibility to "uplift the race." This is a charge regularly applied to black athletes and celebrities.

Dr. Cosby has put his money where his mouth is and though he's getting increasingly grouchy in his old age, the man has a point. If I were going to the White House to interview the President of the United States am I going to slap him five or extend my right hand and shake his? Am I going to say, "Wuzzup, dawg?" or "Good morning, Mr. President?"

The thing is black people and ALL people of color have to be able to move within the larger white society. The way I speak around my homies while we're playing Madden 2004 on a PlayStation in someone's crib isn't the same way I would speak if I were interviewing in the office of the personnel manager at IBM. Call it slang, jive, Ebonics or whatever you like. To make it in this society, you have to be able to speak two languages: one for the street and another for the suites.

50 years after Brown vs Board of Education was decided that stated "separate but equal" was unequal, the task of educating black children remains enormous. Sitting a black child next to a white child never meant they would automatically suck in knowledge from one and impart understanding to the other. But because the experiment wasn't a unqualified success should it be dismissed as a total failure?

Men of America, the problem is plain before you. Here is a race transplanted through the criminal foolishness of your fathers. Whether you like it or not the millions are here, and here they will remain. If you do not lift them up, they will pull you down. Education and work are the levers to uplift a people. Work alone will not do it unless inspired by the right ideals and guided by intelligence. Education must not simply teach work — it must teach Life. The Talented Tenth of the Negro race must be made leaders of thought and missionaries of culture among their people. No others can do this work and Negro colleges must train men for it. The Negro race, like all other races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library...cumentprint=174

[Hugo]

Having a son that, for the purpose of this debate I will label brown, I can honestly say that he was surrounded with anti-intellectualism much more than I was. Anti-intellectualism does disproportionately effect people of color. If you ask me it rivals illegitimate births as the biggest problem of our times.

An anecdote: My son once came home complaining that a poor grade on a paper was due to the teacher being prejudice. I took a brief look at the paper and responded that the teacher must be practicing affirmative action to give him as high a grade as he recieved.

I remember a Psych 101 class that there were four basic responses to racism 1) Ignore it 2) Work harder to overcome it 3) Give up 4) Attempt to still reach societys standards through illegitimate means. Those of color need to recognize that an individual should choose one of the first two options, not the latter two. By ignore it, I simply mean the individual should not let the recognition of racism hinder his personal development. Clearly as long as racism exists some individuals will give up or pursue illegitimate means to an end. Racism should be attacked by society. As long as racism exists there will be negative effects on minorities, their communities and society at large..

This post has been edited by Hugo: May 22 2004, 05:21 PM

[nebraska29]

Excuse me for saying so, but I don't think anti-intellectualism is a peculiarly black trait in modern America.

It infests the whole of society inside the USA, and to a somewhat lesser extent, across the whole Anglo-Saxon world.

Our whole business and technical economy relies on people who have specialist skills - there is little or no requirement for generalists any more. Since education is now seen as a primarily economic tool, the trend is for schools and universities to be less and less focused on general education, instead churning out ever larger numbers of people whose knowledge and understanding of the world around them is focused on one or two narrow specialisms. Outside these areas, we increasingly are either ignorant, or uninterested, or both.

I agree that Cosby narrowed his focus a little much on a small segment of a socially disadvantaged section of a race, when he could've been talking about the entire American society in general. Perhaps the problem is a combination of materialism, careerism, and instant gratification? I agree likewise that education is seen as a way to obtain a special skill to earn an occupation, not so much as to become more liberally rounded in knowledge. I know people who pursue master's degrees to just advance up the payscale or to learn a new occupation such as teaching or counseling. They will complain endlessly of the professor who dares to (gasp!) make them read and think about ideas contained in a book. The solution? Other than trying to insulate our own children from such influences, I'm not certain what there is that can be done.

[Beladonna]

This morning, I was thinking about what Bill Cosby said, but my memory wandered a bit. I first heard his album titled, "Himself" as a teenager. I thought it was the funniest thing I had ever heard. I later saw the actual concert and his body language and facial expressions made it that much better. To this day, when I eat chocolate cake, I might break out in the song he sang on the album.

Dad is great. Give us the chocolate cake!

I remember watching Fat Albert and in hindsight, I realize Bill Cosby was instrumental in teaching children values through animation. Then came the Huxtables, another outstanding family show that taught values.

I realized this man was a huge influence in my life. He has contributed greatly to society. His words should be taken seriously because his goal is genuine. It takes more than a village. You have to want to improve yourself first. Hats off to Dr. Huxtable.

[Doclotus]

Well said, Beladonna, I couldn't agree more. There are few people in Hollywood I respect more than Bill Cosby.

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?
While I believe his comments can be treated as more universal than just for the "lower economic people", the wisdom behind the words is undeniable. I found this commentary from Colbert I. King in the Washington Post pretty much echoed my thoughts on the subject. In particular:

If not there, where? And if not 50 years after "the pivotal and defining moment of the civil rights movement in America," as Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert described the Brown decision, when? Brown cut the legal legs out from under segregation. Doors have been opened as never before. Faces in boardrooms, classrooms, newsrooms, dayrooms, labs and locker rooms have changed, and for the better.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
Maybe, but ultimately it goes back to parenting. As parents, you can't rely on anyone else to teach your kids values. And opportunity for an education is available to everyone.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?
Nope, the truth hurts. Lots of races aren't holding up their end of the deal. Cosby, being one of the premier spokesmen for the African-American community is well within his range of calling people to task and telling them to step up. As King closed his colum on the subject "Cosby's wrong about one thing. It's not just low-income folks. A lot of us aren't holding up our end in this deal."

Doc

[carlitoswhey]

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

That learning basic English is essential to succeeding in America. Especially considering the tendency of 'black leaders' to blame everyone but themselves for everything. If you don't speak English, you don't succeed. Brown gave more people more opportunity, but if white teachers started failing black students for non-English speaking, there would be a revolution, which is sad.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?
Nope. Breakdown of the family is both societal and individual.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?
No.

Just wanted to add - I agree with CruisingRam!

[perspective]

Slightly off-topic -

Did you guys see Eddie Murphy's imitation of Bill Cosby in "Eddie Murphy Raw"?

Soooo funny - Eddie said
"Bill Cosby called me up on the phone and chastised me because my act was too dirty. I was all excited, come running in the house, pick up the phone and say 'Mr Cosby?!' and Bill got raw on me: 'I would like to talk to you about some of the things that you do in your show...'"

Talkin about calling up Richard Pryor and telling him that Bill criticized him:
Pryor: Do people laugh when you say what you say?
Murphy: Yes...
Pryor: Do you get paid?
Murphy: Yes...
Pryor: Well, then tell Bill to have a Coke and a smile and shut the **** up!

LMAO.
Eddie Murphy Raw is hilarious stand up work....enough with the plug...


But I agree - there's a difference between knowing when/how to turn off the act and putting your self-respecting intellectual face forward to the world. Many low-income kids/people don't know how to flip that switch. And that's part of the reason why they remain low-income.

[Hobbes]

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

This is part of the need to establish responsibility for your own success. Sure, there are many social/cultural factors that have an impact on everyone's ability to succeed--this is the case for people of all social strata. However, you have to deal with things that are in your own control--your language skills are one those things, and probably one of the most important.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Absolutely not. As I said above, everyone has to take personal responsibility of their own success. Regardless of particular factors that might be affecting one's situation--if you want to succeed, it is up to you to take the steps necessary to do so. Sitting there blaming society for your ills--justified or not--is not going to do anything constructive. Learning to speak 'proper' ('business?') English will, and is something completely within an individual's control.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

Hmmm...see above? If anything, without seeing the entire speech, I guess I'd have to say not harsh enough. As Nighttimer stated, anti-intellectualism is an epidemic, and does seem to particularly effect the Black community (and probably the Native American community as well). I am struck by a Q&A session I saw with Eddie Murphy recently (sorry, don't remember the link). He was asked which were his favorite books when he was a child. He answered that no one ever read to him when he was young, it wasn't part of life in the ghetto. Wow--this had never even occurred to me. Reading to your child is constantly stressed by child educators as one of the single most important things you can do for your child's development. So, if this isn't happening in the 'Black community' (or any lower economic community), it is putting these children at a significant educational disadvantage, one from which it will be extremely difficult to advance later in life.

The thing is black people and ALL people of color have to be able to move within the larger white society. The way I speak around my homies while we're playing Madden 2004 on a PlayStation in someone's crib isn't the same way I would speak if I were interviewing in the office of the personnel manager at IBM. Call it slang, jive, Ebonics or whatever you like. To make it in this society, you have to be able to speak two languages: one for the street and another for the suites.

Well stated, NT. Please allow me to inject a personal perception here, admittedly based on limited personal experience. I think there is a general tendency of many in the Black community to rebel against this. I think part of this stems from a failure to realize the importance, and part from a desire not to 'give-in' to white culture. What I think needs to be changed is the perception that this is 'white culture'. Insert the term 'business culture', and the statement is just as true. People of all walks of life (white middle class included) have to adjust to this. I have taken to not wearing my ear-ring because I know it can effect people's judgement of me--ditto for long hair, beards, etc. (ask Johnny Damon). The difference I see is that in white, middle class America, we are taught from child-hood to adapt to these situations to get ahead, while the issue being discussed here points to this not being the case in the Black community. I think this goes to the 'anti-intellectualism' being discussed, and is one of the primary obstacles to Blacks achieving equal success in our society.

From my perspective (over 25 years in social work) much of what he is reported saying is more a socio-economic issue than a race issue. A whole new topic might be developed on just why a disproportionate number of blacks are at the bottom of the economic scale.

This is the question I am attempting to address.

From their point of view, what point is there to speaking standard English (and, realistically, how many native-born urban poor Americans genuinely CANNOT speak or understand standard English?) when the best job on offer comes with a baseball cap & apron? What point is there to learning when it can only be acheived at the cost of huge debt, which can only be paid off in a few careers?

Julian, I think you would be surprised. I saw it myself, within my own family. I grew up with my mom, in a middle-class neighborhood with a very good educational system (one of the reasons I grew up there). My brother and sister lived with my dad, in predominantly lower class, blue collar areas (oil fields and timber industries, 'white trash' would probably be appropriate). I remember working with them when they took college classes on their English papers. They did not understand that speech 'slang' did not, in any way, constitute proper English, which was very eye-opening to me, and in talking with them prior to this you could clearly see that they were intelligent, informed people. But this was completely lost in any paper they had to prepare, and I would have to say it would have been obvious in any interview situation as well. I don't think this is purely a 'Black' thing--it is prevalent in any environment in which education is not stressed. I think it is one of the primary differentiators within the Asian community, where grades are an obsession. One other differentiator I see is that within the Black community, there are various 'alternative' careers being perceived, sports being one of the perceived career paths, but various other 'alternative' paths being present as well, none of which require education to be successful (heck, could even be a detriment). Comments?

I think the education cost issue is a factor in this, but a misleading one. First, college financing is set up so that ability to pay is not supposed to be a factor preventing someone from getting an education. I think this fact is not widely understood--anyone really can affort an education (in fact, I think the system adversely affects middle-class to upper middle class more so than lower economic groups). I know that even within my family, where I went through advanced studies paid for with school financial aid, the education financial aid system was very misunderstood. So I don't see how it could possibly be properly perceived within communities where there is little to no college attendance. I don't think the debt load is the issue--failure to get the word out that the money really is available is the problem. That, and perhaps the fear that they won't succeed, but will still be strapped with the debt load for the attempt.

[pbottle]

I agree with the notion that these dis-connects from SAE are not at all limited to the black and other minority community. It is also rampant in certain regions and classes of the white populations and is a key factor in their poverty.

And even 'native' speakers of SAE have two very different versions - at home and informal vs business or formal. When we want to impress, out comes the correct grammar and latinate vocabulary; at home and among friends grammar is 'non-standard' and the vocabulary is earthy and anglo-saxon.

I think the fact is that all american speakers of english normally deviate from SAE, it is merely a question of proficiency on demand and the degree of awareness about when formal speech is required.

The interesting thing is that all of this dates back to a schism that began long before american slavery - to the norman conquest of england. Non-standard english (black and white) is the direct descendant of the Saxon peasant speech after the conquest, divorced from it's former academics. Standard american english is the direct descendant of 'proper' english, the english of the upper-class as eventually spoken by the norman conquerors - complete with latinate vocabulary and grammar rules.

The battle continues one thousand years later.

[loreng59]

I must say I have many excellent, well thought out comments in this section. Mrs. P, AC, Julian bravo!

1.)What if anything should "lower economic people"(as Cosby calls them) take from his speech? Is his criticism something they should take to heart?

This man did not grow up in an upper class neighborhood, yet managed to learn the English language. All of American society should take his comments to heart, they were meant for all of us.

2.)Is Cosby too dismissive of society's role in reproducing social inequality and lack of opportunity?

Not at all, we are have choices to make. Society has been the fall guy for too many issues. It is time that the individuals take responsibility for their own actions.

3.)Was Cosby too harsh?

Not even close. I hate it when somebody "Axed" me a question. I grew up in another country and had to learn to speak their language, and then when I came back to America I had to relearn English. Is it hard, heck yes! But it is worth all of the work to be able to understood. It can and must be done.